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07:59:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-irc
08:00:04 <sandro> zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes?
08:00:06 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(rif)08:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 480 minutes until 1600Z
08:01:51 <Zakim> Team_(rif)08:00Z has now started
08:01:58 <Zakim> +Hassan
08:06:31 <axepol> axepol has joined #rif
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08:09:09 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
08:09:09 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
08:09:53 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF F2F10 (Day 2), Galway, Ireland, May 27, 2008
08:10:06 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie and Chris Welty
08:10:17 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
08:10:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
08:10:25 <ChrisW> zakim, room for 6?
08:10:26 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; conference Team_(rif)08:10Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0910Z
08:11:17 <ChrisW> is anyone waiting to join?
08:11:49 <Hassan> I am on 26631 - is this ok?
08:11:53 <sandro> ChrisW, I already starts conf1with a longer lifetime.    maybe it'll still work.
08:11:59 <ChrisW> ok
08:12:01 <josb> it's 26632 
08:12:13 <Hassan> ok I'll redial
08:12:16 <sandro> no!
08:12:16 <ChrisW> no
08:12:18 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
08:12:19 <ChrisW> hassan
08:12:20 <Zakim> -Hassan
08:12:21 <ChrisW> stay on 
08:12:34 <mdean> i'm also on 26631
08:12:42 <ChrisW> stay there, we will join in a minute
08:12:45 <josb> my mistake
08:12:49 <ChrisW> hassan, rejoin at 26631
08:13:15 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
08:13:19 <Hassan> ok
08:13:22 <sandro> zakim, this is team1
08:13:22 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'team1' in progress or scheduled at this time
08:13:24 <Zakim> +??P0
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08:13:36 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: RIF F2F10 Code 26631
08:13:51 <Zakim> +Hassan
08:14:02 <Zakim> +??P3
08:14:22 <aharth> scribenick: aharth
08:14:56 <ChrisW> Scribe: Andreas Harth
08:15:06 <ChrisW> Topic: Agenda review
08:15:07 <aharth> this session: presentation syntax, especially shortcuts
08:16:45 <aharth> csma: issue 56
08:16:54 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
08:16:57 <aharth> jos: which shortcuts to define
08:17:22 <aharth> axel: sent out proposal yesterday about grammar
08:17:38 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0191.html
08:18:11 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
08:18:11 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Presentation syntax
08:18:47 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
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08:19:22 <aharth> axel: do we want to have string lang tag? his proposal is to use grammar from sparql spec
08:19:44 <AdrianP> Shortcuts e.g.:
08:19:46 <AdrianP> "foo:bar"^^rif:iri             <foo:bar>                     IETF's angular bracket notation
08:19:54 <AdrianP> "purchase"^^rif:local          purchase                      locality by default
08:20:01 <aharth> jos: just use absolute IRIs not relative IRIRefs
08:20:05 <AdrianP> "a b c"^^xsd:string            "a b c"                       Full: quotes are part of ^ syntax
08:20:26 <AdrianP> "10"^^xsd:integer              10                            as in programming languages
08:20:28 <IgorMozetic> A table with tentative shortcuts is in the following minutes
08:20:35 <aharth> jos: in the definition, all w3c standards have full IRIs in their spec
08:20:41 <IgorMozetic> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/att-0033/08-rif-minutes.html
08:20:58 <aharth> chrisw: rif doesn't need to know about curis
08:21:28 <aharth> ... do preprocessing to expand iris
08:22:24 <aharth> axel: basically just added the lang tag, ok to use iri, ok to use prefix def in presentation syntax
08:22:52 <aharth> ... still open are string and escaping, we should use the sparql syntax here as well
08:23:16 <aharth> axel: syntax allows to only write the prefix, which is just resolved to the iri of the prefix
08:23:47 <aharth> csma: decision to make: does it make sense, whether to use iri or iriref, how to address escaping
08:24:02 <aharth> ... any objections?
08:24:54 <aharth> mkifer: not use anglebrackets
08:25:03 <mdean> q+
08:25:13 <aharth> axel: we addressed that in the last telecon, just added last line
08:25:37 <aharth> mkifer: problem is in one place it's really an iri, in other place it's just a marker
08:26:19 <aharth> mdean: should have ways to use curis and iris
08:26:36 <aharth> csma: issue is string^^<IRI>
08:26:44 <aharth> ... for const
08:26:44 <mdean> s/iris/absolute iris/
08:27:33 <aharth> mkifer: here, it's just a symbol that looks like a iri but it's just a constant
08:27:45 <aharth> csma: it's mentioning the iri but not using it
08:28:16 <aharth> mkifer: symbol space is not identified by iri, but just a symbol
08:28:37 <aharth> csma: you want a different syntax for the different roles of an iri?
08:29:24 <aharth> axel: do we open a can of worms here? for sake of readablilty, i'd buy the conceptual ambiguity
08:30:19 <Hassan> The point of this is not prettyness but to help Axel have less pain ... ;-)
08:30:58 <aharth> axel: with current proposal we're compatible with n3 syntax
08:31:39 <aharth> mkifer: the aliases are not required to be iris
08:33:16 <aharth> csma: need to change it either in bld or here
08:33:37 <aharth> csma: must the aliases be iris or not?
08:33:53 <DaveReynolds> It's very hard to follow this - where is this alias proposal?
08:34:00 <aharth> mkifer: curis could be still too long
08:34:13 <Hassan> Something like ${VAR} in yacc unix etc...
08:34:59 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
08:35:01 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Symbol_Spaces
08:35:32 <josb> PROPOSED: remove aliases for datatypes in BLD
08:36:23 <josb> PROPOSED: remove aliases for symbol space identifiers in BLD
08:36:37 <josb> PROPOSED: remove aliases for symbol space identifiers in RIF
08:37:22 <aharth> sandro: does that leave us with this syntax? still possible that say two datatype iris are equal?
08:37:48 <sandro> Jos: You could have two datatypes that are exactly the same, except for their identifier.
08:37:52 <sandro> MK: right.
08:37:55 <sandro> sandro: (nods)
08:38:32 <aharth> csma: any more questions?
08:38:47 <josb> RESOLVED: remove aliases for symbol space identifiers in RIF
08:39:43 <sandro> "chat"@en   
08:39:55 <sandro> as short for   "chat@en"^^rif:text
08:39:59 <aharth> axel: next: string with lang tag
08:40:27 <aharth> csma: Const ::= .... | STRING LANGTAG
08:40:54 <aharth> csma: lang tag in rif:test is mandatory
08:40:58 <AxelPolleres> Proposed chane in DTB here: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=DTB&diff=1746&oldid=1738
08:41:06 <aharth> chris: no shortcut for non-lang-tagged strings?
08:41:19 <aharth> sandro: there should be
08:41:41 <sandro> PROPOSED: add Const ::= STRING LANGTAG  (allowing "chat"@en as short for "chat@en"^^rif:text) and "Const ::= STRING" (allowing "chat" as short for "chat"^^xs:string).
08:42:18 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
08:43:13 <aharth> mkifer: when we lateron introduce modules @ is the right symbol for it
08:44:33 <aharth> mkifer: how often we use that bit in the presentation syntax?
08:44:43 <aharth> jos: for the examples in the doc
08:45:57 <aharth> gary: we have shortcuts for obscure features, but not for strings and integers
08:46:12 <sandro> PROPOSED: modify Presentation Syntax to incliude "Const ::= STRING" (allowing "chat" as short for "chat"^^xs:string).
08:46:20 <sandro> PROPOSED: modify Presentation Syntax to include "Const ::= STRING" (allowing "chat" as short for "chat"^^xs:string).
08:47:29 <sandro> +1
08:47:41 <sandro> RESOLVED: modify Presentation Syntax to include "Const ::= STRING" (allowing "chat" as short for "chat"^^xs:string).
08:47:41 <aharth> csma: any objection?
08:47:42 <GaryHallmark> +1
08:47:43 <IgorMozetic> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/att-0033/08-rif-minutes.html
08:47:49 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/att-0033/08-rif-minutes.html
08:47:53 <AxelPolleres>  NumericLiteral, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rNumericLiteral
08:48:11 <AxelPolleres> (would be the other shortcut we could allow)
08:48:38 <aharth> topic now: abridged presentation syntax
08:49:26 <aharth> csma: in minutes there's a table for abridged syntax
08:50:25 <aharth> sandro: how to distinguish between integer and long?
08:51:48 <aharth> axel: for numerical literals the sparql spec could serve as example
08:52:32 <aharth> axel: double not in symbol spaces
08:53:23 <aharth> PROPOSED: add xsl:double as a required symbol space
08:53:34 <AxelPolleres> Can I paste the proposed grammar in the chat?
08:53:54 <AxelPolleres> s/xsl/xsd/
08:54:16 <aharth> jos: why add double?
08:54:25 <sandro> Sandro: note that it is not in the list in the charter.
08:54:26 <aharth> gary: important for lot of engineering applications
08:54:43 <sandro> +1
08:54:53 <josb> 0
08:55:00 <Hassan> 0
08:55:02 <ChrisW> 0
08:55:03 <DaveReynolds> 0
08:55:13 <GaryHallmark> +1
08:55:14 <mdean> +1
08:55:14 <AxelPolleres> +.5
08:55:25 <Harold> +1
08:55:33 <AdrianP> +1
08:55:33 <aharth> RESOLVED: add xsd:double as a required symbol space
08:55:35 <AxelPolleres>    ANGLEBRACKIRI     ::= '<' IRIRef '>'
08:55:35 <AxelPolleres>    STRING            ::= '"' UNICODESTRINGWITHOUTQUOTES '"'
08:55:35 <AxelPolleres>    CURIE                ::=  PNAME_LN | PNAME_NS
08:55:35 <AxelPolleres>    Const             ::= ANGLEBRACKIRI
08:55:35 <AxelPolleres>                        | CURIE
08:55:36 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING '^^'ANGLEBRACKIRI
08:55:38 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING '^^' CURIE
08:55:39 <GaryHallmark> +1.0e0
08:55:41 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING LANGTAG
08:55:42 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING
08:55:44 <AxelPolleres>                        | NumericLiteral
08:55:46 <AxelPolleres>   PNAME_LN, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPNAME_LN
08:55:48 <AxelPolleres>   PNAME_NS, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPNAME_NS
08:55:50 <AxelPolleres>   LANGTAG, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rLANGTAG
08:56:06 <aharth> PROPOSED: add shortcat e notation for double
08:56:19 <Hassan> short ... cat? ;-)
08:56:28 <aharth> sorry :)
08:56:34 <aharth> s/shortcat/shortcut
08:57:21 <aharth> discussion about grammar
08:57:35 <aharth> sandro: why do we need long in presentation syntax and datatypes
08:57:49 <aharth> chris: get positive negative integer and decimals
08:58:27 <aharth> axel: we can add hooks to link into the sparql grammar
08:58:42 <aharth> mkifer: prefered to be self-contained, what if sparql changes?
08:58:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: import NumericLiteral from SPARQL http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rNumericLiteral giving us INTEGER, DECIMAL, and DOUBLE.
09:00:04 <sandro> PROPOSED: import NumericLiteral from SPARQL http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rNumericLiteral giving us INTEGER, DECIMAL, and DOUBLE to the Presentation Syntax
09:00:07 <AdrianP> +1
09:00:14 <GaryHallmark> +1
09:00:16 <AxelPolleres> +1
09:00:18 <sandro> +1
09:00:22 <DaveReynolds> +1
09:00:24 <Hassan> +1
09:00:25 <ChrisW> +1
09:00:43 <IgorMozetic> +1
09:00:52 <sandro> PROPOSED: reuse NumericLiteral from SPARQL http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rNumericLiteral giving us INTEGER, DECIMAL, and DOUBLE to the Presentation Syntax
09:00:54 <Harold> +1
09:01:09 <sandro> RESOLVED: reuse NumericLiteral from SPARQL http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rNumericLiteral giving us INTEGER, DECIMAL, and DOUBLE to the Presentation Syntax
09:01:10 <mdean> +1
09:01:21 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
09:01:21 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-irc#T09-01-21
09:02:06 <aharth> csma: open is rif:local by default?
09:02:53 <AxelPolleres> Can we reuse http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_CHARS_BASE ???
09:04:22 <aharth> mkifer: starts with letter or underscore
09:04:34 <sandro> PROPOSED: modify presentation syntax so that identifiers (as in C or Java - starting with letter or underscore, allowing digits later), are shortcut for rif:local
09:04:35 <aharth> mkifer: followed by alphanumeric
09:05:06 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-names11-20060816/#NT-LocalPart
09:05:22 <sandro> Chris: This is just a shortcut -- no UNICODE -- if you want that, use the ^^rif:local form.
09:06:09 <aharth> sandro: most languages set aside a set of keywords for this
09:06:21 <DaveReynolds> How about having locals start with _ to avoid that?
09:06:26 <aharth> gary: is not code, but presentation syntax
09:06:38 <AxelPolleres> Locals shortcut might conflict with keywords... e.g. External( ... ) 
09:08:19 <aharth> mkifer: keywords start with dollar sign?
09:08:21 <sandro> MichaelKifer: keywords like import and external could start with a $
09:09:08 <aharth> sandro: leave out rif:local shortcuts?
09:10:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: modify presentation syntax so that alphanumeric identifiers starting with "_" are shortcut for rif:local  (so _foo is short for "foo"^^rif:local)
09:11:31 <Hassan> +1
09:11:41 <sandro> +1
09:11:52 <aharth> harold: other character than underscore, use dot like in linux
09:12:01 <aharth> sandro: code convention in java and c for local variables
09:12:18 <AdrianP> +1
09:12:22 <DaveReynolds> +1 
09:12:24 <Harold> +1
09:12:24 <IgorMozetic> +1
09:12:31 <sandro> ... or local (private) terms, not variables
09:12:32 <josb> 0
09:12:51 <AxelPolleres> +1
09:12:58 <GaryHallmark> +0
09:13:06 <mdean> +0
09:13:38 <aharth> mkifer: appreciate the point that "_" prefix represents local things, but in programming languages it's part of the name
09:13:53 <aharth> ... maybe single quotes?
09:14:20 <AdrianP> "purchase"^^rif:local becomes _purchase
09:14:50 <sandro> RESOLVED: modify presentation syntax so that alphanumeric identifiers starting with "_" are shortcut for rif:local  (so _foo is short for "foo"^^rif:local)
09:14:53 <AxelPolleres> current status of the grammar:
09:14:54 <AxelPolleres>    Const             ::= STRING '^^'ANGLEBRACKIRI
09:14:54 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING '^^' CURIE
09:14:54 <AxelPolleres>                        | ANGLEBRACKIRI       -> shortcut for rif:iri
09:14:54 <AxelPolleres>                        | CURIE               -> shortcut for rif:iri
09:14:54 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING LANGTAG      -> shortcut for rif:text
09:14:56 <AxelPolleres>                        | STRING              -> shortcut for xsd:string
09:14:58 <AxelPolleres>                        | NumericLiteral      -> shortcut for xsd:integer, xsd:decimal, xsd:double 
09:15:18 <AxelPolleres>                        | '_' LocalName       -> shortcut for rif:local
09:15:18 <AxelPolleres>                        
09:15:18 <AxelPolleres>   PNAME_LN, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPNAME_LN
09:15:18 <AxelPolleres>   PNAME_NS, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPNAME_NS
09:15:18 <AxelPolleres>   LANGTAG, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rLANGTAG
09:15:19 <AxelPolleres>   NumericLiteral, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rNumericLiteral
09:15:21 <AxelPolleres>   LocalName, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-names11-20060816/#NT-LocalPart
09:15:51 <aharth> csma: next: lang tag and string
09:16:20 <aharth> ... proposal is to have lang tag seperated from string
09:16:23 <sandro> PROPOSED: modify Presentaton Syntax adding Const ::= STRING LANGTAG  (allowing "chat"@en as short for "chat@en"^^rif:text) 
09:16:54 <aharth> mkifer: concern that @ symbol could be used for modules
09:17:18 <sandro> MichaelKifer wants to keep @ operator reserved for modules
09:17:52 <Hassan> q+ to ask a couple of questions on namespaces and entities (when topic gets to that)
09:18:08 <DaveReynolds> That would be confusing, can you use something else for modules?
09:18:18 <mdean> q-
09:18:26 <sandro> Sandro:   the lexer can distinguish normal @ from @-preceded-by-double-quoted-string
09:18:56 <AxelPolleres> why not have riftext:en, riftext:de, etc. as separate symspaces? :-)
09:19:06 <aharth> hasan: sometimes we use rif:id, sometimes &rif;id
09:19:21 <DaveReynolds> q+
09:19:46 <AxelPolleres> q+
09:19:48 <DaveReynolds> q-
09:19:50 <Hassan> q-
09:19:52 <aharth> csma: in this session we talk about presentation syntax
09:19:59 <Hassan> ok I will ask later
09:20:57 <sandro> "chat"^^riftext:en
09:21:21 <AxelPolleres> "xyz@en"^^rif:text --> "xyz"^^riftext:en
09:22:11 <aharth> jos: problem here is we would define iris for languages which is in an rfc and can change
09:22:14 <DaveReynolds> Hassan - in the XML there would only be real IRIs, not Curies. To make XML more readable it is quite common to define entities but the processing of that is done by the XML parser, the translator code would only see the exapansion. See http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think9.html as an example. This is one reason I asked that the XML examples in the doc be complete, not fragments.
09:22:28 <aharth> sandro: ok, we could define it openly as a pattern
09:23:26 <aharth> csma: rif:text might disappear into a document common for rif and owl
09:23:42 <aharth> csma: we don't discuss that further now
09:23:44 <sandro> tabled.
09:24:27 <Hassan> Hassan -> DaveReynolds - Thanks.
09:24:45 <sandro> csma: So we'll have rif:text marked AT RISK, and the shortcut syntax for it is still considered fluid.
09:25:30 <sandro> axel: we could have the shortcut stable, ....
09:26:02 <aharth> cmsa: next topic irirefs vs iris
09:26:39 <aharth> ... irirefs or absolute iris
09:27:09 <aharth> jos: issue with relative iris: you need a base iri to resolve relative iris to absolute iris
09:27:26 <aharth> ... need mechanism to specify base iris if we stay with irirefs
09:27:56 <aharth> ... benefit of irirefs is that 
09:28:03 <aharth> ... they're shorter
09:28:30 <DaveReynolds> It is an issue in the XML syntax - should make sure that is included in the discussion.
09:29:11 <aharth> axel: relatively simple, could have a base iri in the preamble
09:30:43 <DaveReynolds> Consider the IRI for identifying a rule to which metadata will be attached. Shouldn't that be relative?
09:31:27 <Harold> XML Base Recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/#resolution
09:31:57 <sandro> PROPOSED: IRIs in the XML syntax can be relartive-IRIs (they need not be absolute)
09:32:32 <mdean> s/relartive/relative/
09:33:12 <sandro> PROPOSED: IRIs in the XML syntax can be relative-IRIs (they need not be absolute)
09:33:15 <sandro> +1
09:33:17 <DaveReynolds> q+
09:33:30 <Hassan> +1
09:33:32 <sandro> q- AxelPolleres 
09:33:34 <AxelPolleres> q-
09:33:35 <sandro> ack DaveReynolds 
09:34:38 <aharth> dave: where exactly use relatvie iris in the XML?
09:34:49 <aharth> sandro: thought about const but maybe there's other places too
09:35:08 <aharth> csma: table that queston for xml syntax, but focus on presentation syntax
09:35:46 <Hassan> But I thought the proposed statement mentions that it is for XML syntax ?
09:36:00 <Hassan> ok
09:36:03 <sandro> PROPOSED: In Presentation Syntax, the IRIs in rif:iri Consts can be relative.  A "base" directive will be added to the preamble.
09:36:24 <DaveReynolds> q+
09:36:33 <sandro> ack DaveReynolds 
09:36:44 <AxelPolleres> +1
09:36:55 <aharth> dave: why does that matter when describing examples
09:37:33 <aharth> ... n3 does not have base directive?
09:37:41 <sandro> <./foo/bar.x>
09:38:31 <sandro> Chairs: discussion tabled -- not resolved
09:38:41 <sandro> csma: It is left ambiguous in the presentation syntax.
09:39:17 <sandro> DaveReynolds: (on irc) Sorry, I was wrong N3 does have an @base FWIW
09:39:29 <aharth> axel: propose to adopt syntax proposal from sparql - use backlash to escape quotes inside strings
09:40:02 <mdean> s/backlash/backslash/
09:40:39 <sandro> PROPOSED: Adopt SPARQL convention for using backslash to allow quotes within quoted strings.
09:41:09 <sandro> PROPOSED: Adopt SPARQL convention for using backslash to allow quotes (and cr, lf, tab, etc) within quoted strings.
09:41:20 <Hassan> +1
09:41:32 <sandro> PROPOSED: Adopt SPARQL convention for using backslash to allow quotes (and cr, lf, tab, etc) within quoted strings (in Presentation Syntax).
09:41:36 <sandro> +1
09:41:56 <IgorMozetic> +1
09:41:57 <mdean> +1
09:42:04 <AxelPolleres> +1
09:42:06 <josb> +1
09:42:08 <ChrisW> +1
09:42:09 <DaveReynolds> +1
09:43:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: Adopt SPARQL convention for using backslash to allow quotes (and cr, lf, tab, etc) within quoted strings (in Presentation Syntax).
09:43:26 <aharth> mkifer: where we should elaborte on the escaping?
09:45:29 <ChrisW> --- break ---
09:46:29 <Zakim> -Hassan
10:01:13 <sandro> Back from break
10:01:25 <sandro> scribenick: johnhall 
10:01:39 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-56 as addressed by the resolutions this morning.
10:01:56 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/56
10:02:09 <csma> csma has joined #rif
10:02:51 <johnhall> axel: sent out email summarizing presentation syntax
10:02:54 <sandro> +1
10:03:03 <johnhall> chrisw: proposal - move on
10:03:25 <DaveReynolds> +1
10:03:26 <josb> +++++1
10:03:31 <johnhall> csma: did not close resolution
10:03:42 <IgorMozetic> +1
10:03:42 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-56 as addressed by the resolutions this morning.
10:03:42 <AxelPolleres> -0.2
10:03:51 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
10:03:55 <johnhall> chrisw: closed issue 56
10:03:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
10:03:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-irc#T10-03-57
10:05:13 <johnhall> csma: issue - Jeremy C - not consider RDF entailment
10:05:47 <johnhall> csma: comment 5 in JC email 2
10:05:59 <DaveReynolds> URL for the email?
10:06:33 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2008May/0004.html
10:06:40 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_JC3
10:06:46 <josb> comment B
10:07:32 <johnhall> csma: no discussion today - move on, no change
10:07:49 <johnhall> csma: JC email 1
10:08:03 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_JC
10:08:06 <johnhall> csma: coment 15
10:08:53 <johnhall> chrisw: point of confusion - is IP a subeset of IR?
10:09:11 <mdean> s/subeset/subset/
10:09:39 <johnhall> jos: making it a little easier doe not justify changing
10:09:49 <johnhall> chrisw: just changing our view
10:10:12 <johnhall> chrisw: leave it
10:10:20 <mdean> s/doe/does/
10:11:06 <DaveReynolds> Agreed leave it, can't see how we can change RDF, and I would oppose losing simple entailment
10:11:32 <johnhall> jos: leave things as they are - Jos already has an action
10:11:40 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_JC2
10:11:41 <johnhall> csma: JC email 2, comment 19
10:11:42 <josb> comment 19
10:12:11 <johnhall> csma: DL safeness at risk
10:12:33 <johnhall> jos: JC was referring to something else
10:12:36 <johnhall> ... is OK
10:13:18 <johnhall> ... not sure that DL safeness restrictions is what people need
10:13:43 <johnhall> chrisw: not what this comment is about
10:13:53 <johnhall> jos: what we discussed yesterday
10:15:26 <johnhall> chrisw: ref to Jos comments in document
10:17:03 <johnhall> chrisw: csma: marj DL safeness at risk?
10:17:30 <johnhall> s/marj/mark/
10:17:51 <johnhall> chrisw: action Jos to mark 3.1.1
10:18:10 <johnhall> ACTION: Jos to mark 3.1.1 at risk
10:18:10 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos
10:18:10 <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
10:18:40 <johnhall> csma: drop section 6.2
10:19:02 <johnhall> ... from Dave
10:19:11 <sandro> ACTION: jdebruij2 to mark SWC section 3.1.1 as "AT RISK", with explanation.
10:19:12 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-491 - Mark SWC section 3.1.1 as \"AT RISK\", with explanation. [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-06-03].
10:19:46 <johnhall> Jos: not strongly in favour of keeping it
10:19:54 <DaveReynolds> I don't feel strongly about this one either way
10:19:54 <johnhall> ... or against
10:20:41 <johnhall> csma: what is status of DLP in OWL-R?
10:20:51 <johnhall> sandro: pretty good
10:21:04 <johnhall> csma: mark is as at risk?
10:21:13 <johnhall> Jos: can't do that
10:21:24 <johnhall> csma: couild remove it later
10:21:33 <johnhall> s/couild/could/
10:22:07 <johnhall> Jos: if OWL-R is well-designed, could be embedded in RIF
10:22:23 <johnhall> sandro: not sure
10:22:33 <johnhall> .. keep 6.2
10:23:01 <johnhall> chrisw: no change
10:23:36 <johnhall> csma: Dave 7.1, profiels for imports
10:23:49 <johnhall> s/profiels/profiles/
10:24:37 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0174.html
10:25:26 <johnhall> Jos: section 4.2
10:26:02 <johnhall> ... more general isue is that you can specify different profiles but have to pick one
10:26:12 <johnhall> ... we now pick the highest
10:26:30 <johnhall> ... could have one for the entire document
10:28:29 <johnhall> ... if profiles for RDFS and OWL-FULL, OWL-FULL takes precedence, RDFS is not valid
10:29:26 <johnhall> dave: if importing under two profiles, find the lowest one that is higher than both
10:29:40 <johnhall> ... if not, abort
10:29:47 <johnhall> jos: agree
10:30:40 <johnhall> ... updated to adopt proposal - see Wiki version
10:30:41 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/SWC#Interpretation_of_Profiles
10:30:57 <johnhall> dave: OK with rewording
10:31:55 <johnhall> igor: some built-in predicates
10:32:05 <johnhall> jos: need to be updated
10:32:25 <johnhall> ... and need to write down the proofs
10:32:44 <johnhall> chrisw: what built-in predicates?
10:33:00 <johnhall> jos: detecting il--typed literals
10:33:10 <johnhall> s/il/ill/
10:33:31 <johnhall> csma: is informative - can be changed after last call
10:33:55 <johnhall> csma: show stopper for last call?
10:33:59 <johnhall> jos: no
10:34:55 <johnhall> chrisw: editor's note 2.1.2
10:36:08 <johnhall> jos: resolved
10:37:50 <johnhall> chrisw: end of 3.1.1 - remove and mark as 'at risk'
10:38:48 <johnhall> jos: 6.1.7 - section to be removed
10:40:19 <johnhall> jos: syggest removing note in 6.2.3.1
10:41:04 <johnhall> .. 6.2.3.2 remove note?
10:41:17 <johnhall> ... will add text
10:41:43 <johnhall> csma: any other features at risk?
10:42:37 <johnhall> jos: OWL DL annotation entailment 3.2.2.3
10:42:50 <johnhall> chrisw: what is problem?
10:43:04 <johnhall> ... keep it
10:43:30 <johnhall> csma: marking at risk means we can remove it
10:44:08 <johnhall> ... if there is a risk that some implementer will complain, mark as at risk
10:44:29 <johnhall> jos: leave it - we don't require them to implement
10:45:07 <johnhall> ACTION: csma to review changes
10:45:07 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-492 - Review changes [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2008-06-03].
10:45:16 <sandro> PROPOSED: Public SWC as LAST CALL Working Draft, after changes agreed upon this session are made (and checked by CSMA)
10:45:23 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish SWC as LAST CALL Working Draft, after changes agreed upon this session are made (and checked by CSMA)
10:45:34 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish SWC as LAST CALL Working Draft, after changes agreed upon this session and yesterday are made (and checked by CSMA)
10:45:43 <johnhall> jos: also changes from yesterday
10:45:52 <sandro> +1 (W3C)
10:45:59 <Harold> +1 (NRC)
10:45:59 <DaveReynolds> +1 (HP)
10:46:00 <josb> +1 (FUB)
10:46:03 <IgorMozetic> +1 (JSI)
10:46:04 <mdean> +1 (SRI)
10:46:06 <AxelPolleres> +1 (DERI)
10:46:12 <AxelPolleres> +1 (IBM)
10:46:14 <GaryHallmark> +1 (Oracle)
10:46:15 <johnhall> +1 (OMG
10:46:26 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
10:46:36 <MichaelKifer> +1
10:46:41 <AdrianP> +1 (REWERSE)
10:46:41 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
10:46:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ??P0, DaveReynolds
10:46:44 <csma> csma has joined #rif
10:46:59 <csma> +1 (ILOG)
10:47:15 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
10:47:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ??P0, DaveReynolds
10:47:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish SWC as LAST CALL Working Draft, after changes agreed upon this session and yesterday are made (and checked by CSMA)
10:47:38 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
10:47:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-irc#T10-47-38
10:47:58 <johnhall> NAMING CONVENTIONS
10:48:43 <johnhall> BLD document
10:49:10 <johnhall> chrisw: agreed only to change upper and lower
10:49:44 <johnhall> ... discussing for named arguments and frame slots - different content
10:49:53 <johnhall> harold: leave as is
10:50:27 <johnhall> chrisw: ... easy to handle in XSD
10:51:49 <johnhall> sandro: declare - has variable
10:52:01 <johnhall> ... quantified variable?
10:52:36 <johnhall> harold: has class name inside
10:52:49 <johnhall> chrisw: declares?
10:53:30 <johnhall> sandro: never mind
10:54:26 <johnhall> gary: not happy with Expr
10:54:27 <sandro>              <arg>
10:54:27 <sandro>                <Expr>
10:54:27 <sandro>                  <op><Const type="rif:iri">cpt:book</Const></op>
10:54:27 <sandro>                  <arg><Var>Author</Var></arg>
10:54:27 <sandro>                  <arg><Const type="rif:iri">bks:LeRif</Const></arg>
10:54:28 <sandro>                </Expr>
10:54:30 <sandro>              </arg>
10:54:32 <sandro>  
10:55:22 <johnhall> gary: Function for Expr, Predicate for Atom
10:55:53 <johnhall> ... Atom is jargon
10:56:58 <johnhall> sandro: Equal roles should be left and right
10:57:04 <sandro> Sandro: <Equal> should have <left> and <right> not side and side.
10:57:33 <johnhall> csma: is symmetric
10:57:51 <johnhall> harold: prefer not to go back to left and right
10:59:08 <DaveReynolds> +1 on left/right being (slightly) better
10:59:58 <johnhall> sandro: do not want to get your rules back from RIF with equalities flipped
11:00:48 <johnhall> chrisw: discussion was that equality is symmetric, and we didn't want to force people to choose left and right
11:01:10 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: shall we switch from Equal/side/side to Equal/left/right ?
11:01:32 <sandro> leave it as is: three
11:02:12 <sandro> changing it: Jos, Sandro, (dave reynolds)
11:02:32 <sandro> sandro: I'm willing to drop it on the graounds that it's a lot of work to change.
11:02:34 <johnhall> leave as is
11:03:31 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0205.html
11:03:32 <johnhall> hassan: email on XML tagging
11:04:10 <johnhall> sandro: not about naming
11:04:56 <johnhall> chrisw: we just have to be sure that we get it right - we use it when it will work
11:05:28 <johnhall> harold: have to declare twice - as namespace and entity
11:06:17 <DaveReynolds> Harold - generally people use the entity declaration within the namespace declaration which helps slightly.
11:06:27 <johnhall> chrisw: not relevant to this session's topic
11:10:11 <johnhall> csma: also need to look at section 4.2
11:10:53 <johnhall> csma: change name of 'implies' for less-overloaded name
11:11:34 <johnhall> ... is not an implication (in logical sense) is some roles
11:11:49 <johnhall> ... something like 'conditional'?
11:12:06 <johnhall> gary: could they all be nouns?
11:12:30 <johnhall> s/is some/in some/
11:13:25 <johnhall> csma: Change 'manner' to 'profile'
11:13:43 <johnhall> ... change 'implies' to 'conditional'
11:14:10 <johnhall> sandro: 'payload' to 'content'
11:17:26 <johnhall> 'manner' to 'profile' unanimous
11:18:17 <DaveReynolds> RuleBody?
11:18:36 <DaveReynolds> Nah, I withdraw that :-)
11:19:09 <mdean> keep implies
11:21:31 <sandro> ACTION: Harold to change "manner" to "profile"
11:21:31 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-493 - Change \"manner\" to \"profile\" [on Harold Boley - due 2008-06-03].
11:22:17 <mdean> +1 payload to content
11:22:25 <johnhall> 'implies' to 'rule' not decided
11:22:29 <DaveReynolds> +1 payload to content
11:23:03 <johnhall> 'payload' to 'content' majority against
11:23:07 <sandro> "payload" -> "content" fails.
11:24:17 <johnhall> 'address' to 'location' majority for
11:24:25 <sandro> ACTION: Harold to change "address" to "location" for Imports, in BLD.
11:24:25 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-494 - Change \"address\" to \"location\" for Imports, in BLD. [on Harold Boley - due 2008-06-03].
11:25:58 <johnhall> csma: small objection to 'rule' for 'implies' - if rule has name, it will be far away from tag 'rule' 
11:26:41 <mdean> +1 keep implies
11:27:45 <mdean> +1 leave as is
11:27:54 <sandro> implies vs rule:      4 for rule, 5 for implies
11:29:29 <johnhall> csma: did we address all parts of issue 49?
11:29:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-49 with decisions made so far today
11:30:03 <sandro> +1
11:30:07 <IgorMozetic> +1
11:30:08 <josb> -0
11:30:13 <GaryHallmark> +1
11:30:18 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-49 with decisions made so far today
11:30:21 <johnhall> RESOLVED: close issue 49
11:30:56 <johnhall> PROPOSED: close issue 54
11:30:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-54 with at-risk label as decided this morning.
11:31:06 <josb> +1
11:31:09 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-54 with at-risk label as decided this morning.
11:31:14 <johnhall> RESOLVED: close issue 54
11:31:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-60 as decided this morning -- if they are incomparable it's an error
11:31:53 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
11:31:56 <josb> +1
11:31:59 <AxelPolleres> +1
11:32:04 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-60 as decided this morning -- if they are incomparable it's an error
11:32:16 <sandro> PROPOSED: Go to lunch
11:32:34 <sandro> BREAK-for-Lunch
11:32:50 <Zakim> -meetingroom
11:32:51 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
11:32:53 <Zakim> Team_(rif)08:00Z has ended
11:32:54 <Zakim> Attendees were Hassan, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, meetingroom
11:33:01 <mdean> 1 hour break
11:34:39 <ChrisW> zakim, meetingroom contains MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP,IgorMozetic,sandro,aharth,GaryHallmark,josb,johnhall,csma,ChrisW,AxelPolleres
11:34:40 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'meetingroom'
11:35:07 <ChrisW> Attendees: MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP,IgorMozetic,sandro,aharth,GaryHallmark,josb,johnhall,csma,ChrisW,AxelPolleres
11:35:24 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
11:35:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
11:35:55 <ChrisW> Present: MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP,IgorMozetic,sandro,aharth,GaryHallmark,josb,johnhall,csma,ChrisW,AxelPolleres
11:35:59 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
11:35:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
11:36:16 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
11:36:16 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I don't know what conference this is
12:39:27 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
12:50:39 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:50:39 <Zakim> apparently Team_(rif)08:00Z has ended, sandro
12:50:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see AdrianP, csma, MichaelKifer, GaryHallmark, sandro, IgorMozetic, johnhall, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, aharth, josb, meetingroom, RRSAgent, Zakim, Hassan, mdean, trackbot-ng
12:50:52 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
12:50:58 <sandro> zakim, room for 5 for 300 minutes?
12:51:00 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(rif)12:50Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 300 minutes until 1750Z
12:51:09 <AxelPolleres> Topic: BLD review
12:51:22 <Zakim> Team_(rif)12:50Z has now started
12:51:22 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RIF F2F10 Code 26633
12:51:29 <Zakim> +??P6
12:51:37 <sandro> Zakim, ??P6 is Meeting_Room
12:51:37 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it
12:51:41 <Zakim> +??P11
12:51:42 <AxelPolleres> scribenick AxelPolleres
12:51:48 <AxelPolleres> scribe Axel Polleres
12:51:49 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
12:51:53 <ChrisW> zakim, meeting_room contains MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP,IgorMozetic,sandro,aharth,GaryHallmark,josb,johnhall,csma,ChrisW,AxelPolleres
12:51:53 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP, IgorMozetic, sandro, aharth, GaryHallmark, josb, johnhall, csma, ChrisW, AxelPolleres; got it
12:51:57 <sandro> mdean, Hassan, DaveReynolds -- CONFERENCE CODE is 26633
12:51:58 <AxelPolleres> Topic: BLD review
12:52:04 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
12:52:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP, IgorMozetic, sandro, aharth, GaryHallmark, josb, johnhall, csma, ChrisW,
12:52:08 <Zakim> ... AxelPolleres
12:52:09 <sandro> scribe: AxelPolleres 
12:52:12 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
12:52:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
12:52:29 <AxelPolleres> Dan's comments on.
12:53:13 <AxelPolleres> Christian: What about Dan's comment on arity of predicates?
12:53:40 <AxelPolleres> sandro: Problematic on merging rulesets where one uses p with arity n and the other uses p with arity m.
12:54:12 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
12:54:16 <AxelPolleres> Christian: if it is an IRI it should have the same arity, if it is a local name, then it is in fact different names.
12:55:10 <AxelPolleres> ... answer to dan: this is not a problem, i.e. conflicts on using the same iri with different arities is intended.
12:55:49 <AxelPolleres> Michael: not sure.
12:56:09 <sandro> PROPOSED: Answer to Dan is that in BLD, pred and funcs have one arity, and it is correct that the restriction holds even across multiple documents.    So the requirement is met -- rulesets can be merged -- but if one ruleset is in error, then the merged version will be able to detect the error.
12:56:22 <AxelPolleres> ... for example in PROLOG it is quite common to use the same predicates.
12:56:42 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: yes, but we disallow that.
12:57:51 <josb> +1
12:58:33 <AxelPolleres> Christian: What do we do on rif:locals on merging? General problem.
12:58:41 <sandro> +1
12:58:44 <DaveReynolds> Isn't Dan's comment asking for a rephrasing?
12:58:47 <AxelPolleres> josb: This is - for the import mechanism - well-defined.
13:00:04 <AxelPolleres> Michael: We defined import, but nor merging.
13:02:05 <sandro> jos:   imports is not exempted.    Doc1:   P(..),  Q(...)      Doc2:   P=Q        import/merge is a problem.
13:02:35 <sandro> RESOLVED: Answer to Dan is that in BLD, pred and funcs have one arity, and it is correct that the restriction holds even across multiple documents.    So the requirement is met -- rulesets can be merged -- but if one ruleset is in error, then the merged version will be able to detect the error.
13:02:52 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: who is responding to Dan?
13:03:37 <AxelPolleres> ... I will start the wiki page for the response right now.
13:04:16 <AxelPolleres> AdrianP: propose to wait until tomorrow and will respond then, together with UCR responses.
13:04:18 <sandro> ACTION: AdrianP to respond to Dan2 (about well-formedness)
13:04:18 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - AdrianP
13:04:23 <sandro> ACTION: Adrian to respond to Dan2 (about well-formedness)
13:04:23 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Adrian
13:04:23 <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. agiurca, apaschke)
13:04:37 <sandro> ACTION: apaschke to respond to Dan2 (about well-formedness)
13:04:37 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-495 - Respond to Dan2 (about well-formedness) [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-06-03].
13:04:56 <AxelPolleres> Christian: 3 comments from Jeremy on rif:iri. OWL is unconvinced by rif:iri and rif:text.
13:05:41 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: I think this is satisfied by our presentation syntax resolutions.
13:06:00 <AxelPolleres> ... but we need to respond.
13:06:09 <AxelPolleres> josb: I will write these responses.
13:06:42 <DaveReynolds> What was the outcome of that one?
13:07:35 <AxelPolleres> Christian: next, dave has a comment on equality terms appearing in externals. 
13:08:42 <AxelPolleres> ... the answer to the question is yes: it is deliberate and legal.
13:08:50 <sandro> csma: Answer -- it's deliberate, it's okay, it's legal --- 
13:09:03 <AxelPolleres> Dave: but  why then disallow External in the head?
13:09:11 <sandro> MichaelKifer: External as a head, as a predicate, would mean you were re-defining the predicate.
13:09:44 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Surely the same is true of external functions.
13:11:10 <sandro> Jos: this is the same as moving it to the body and have X=Y in the head.    
13:11:49 <sandro> Jos: whereas if you have an external predicate in the head, that requires constraint reasoning, which is different from std rule reasoning.
13:11:54 <AxelPolleres> Christian: So, shall we allow any External in the head or diallow any Externals in the head?
13:11:56 <DaveReynolds> OK
13:12:03 <sandro> Jos: So, don't change anything.
13:12:29 <AxelPolleres> Michael/josb: that would be a void restriction, because it can't be amulated.
13:12:40 <AxelPolleres> s/can't/can/
13:13:10 <AxelPolleres> Christian: Dave's comment on BLD XML.
13:13:20 <josb> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Nov/0019.html
13:13:53 <josb> nov 27: RESOLVED: We'll refer to XSD 1.0 instead of XSD 1.1 in our document for now, including a clear note that it our intention to change to XSD 1.1 when it becomes available, so that people can use XML 1.1. 
13:14:09 <AxelPolleres> ... this about the XSD version.
13:14:26 <AxelPolleres> ... so, only about datatypes.
13:14:47 <josb> s/27/27, 2007/
13:14:47 <AxelPolleres> Dave: my comment is about the *XML* version.
13:15:17 <AxelPolleres> Christian: objections against saying that we refer to XML 1.0?
13:15:39 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use XML 1.0 (not XML 1.1)
13:15:44 <AxelPolleres> josb: isn't there a possibility to allow people to use their preferred XML version?
13:16:24 <AxelPolleres> Crisw: We are not gonna try to solve that problem, if people can make it work with XML1.1, then it is fine.
13:16:25 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use XML 1.0 (not XML 1.1) for the XML syntax for BLD.
13:16:36 <AxelPolleres> josb: what is the difference?
13:17:21 <AxelPolleres> sandro: fixed reference to unicode in XML 1.0.
13:17:56 <AxelPolleres> ... 1.1 more open to speak "different languages".
13:18:26 <AxelPolleres> gary: there's a recomendation to use 1.0 unless features of 1.1 really needed.
13:19:20 <AxelPolleres> sandro: let's get back to that later, I will gtry to get an answer within the hour.
13:19:55 <AxelPolleres> Christian: comment from Dave on compact IRIs in the XML syntax.
13:20:42 <AxelPolleres> ... compact IRIs are not approproate in the XML, because there they are real QNames (?)
13:22:06 <AxelPolleres> Harold: Once we have presentation syntax with prefixes, and entities in the XML, that should be fine. 
13:22:51 <DaveReynolds> There's not dependency there!
13:22:55 <AxelPolleres> Michael: prefix definition will be in BLD, Consts will be in DTB.
13:23:11 <AxelPolleres> ... (the pres. syntax)
13:23:48 <sandro> ACTION: Harold to update all examples for Presentation Syntax and XML syntax for curies and entities.  Also add Prefix to presentation syntax.
13:23:48 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-496 - Update all examples for Presentation Syntax and XML syntax for curies and entities.  Also add Prefix to presentation syntax. [on Harold Boley - due 2008-06-03].
13:25:44 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: The XML syntax should be valid XML... full stop.
13:26:01 <AxelPolleres> Christian: Dave wants a full XML document as an example.
13:26:14 <AxelPolleres> Harold: that will be a byproduct of my action.
13:26:20 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
13:26:21 <mdean> I've got another telecon.  I'll be back in about 1.5 hours.
13:27:01 <AxelPolleres> ... I always use the official W3C validators for XML in the examples.
13:27:19 <DaveReynolds> Axell - for the record. My comment was that the use of prefixes in the presentation syntax is orthogonal to the XML. In the XML all IRIs are simply IRs, not CURIEs. Whether we choose to use XML Entities to make the examples more readable is simply presentation style.
13:27:32 <DaveReynolds> s/Axell/Axel/
13:28:18 <AxelPolleres> Christian: more comments form Dave on the schema.
13:28:42 <AxelPolleres> ... 1) rif:type should be used rather than just type.
13:29:26 <AxelPolleres> ... 2) rif:type should be resticted to anyURI rather than xsd:string.
13:30:00 <DaveReynolds> Talking to some XML people here (1) is probably not a great idea, I'll withdraw it unless anyone wants it.
13:30:12 <AxelPolleres> Christian: Any drawback in qalifying "type"?
13:31:06 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: is this the only attribute?
13:31:42 <AxelPolleres> Christian: Who's in favor f qualifying attributes?
13:32:21 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: makes XML more readable... attributes don't need a def namespace.
13:32:28 <DaveReynolds> 0
13:32:48 <sandro> Sandro: I favor no namespace for rif:type, so we can have a rif document with no "rif:" anywhere in it, using default namespace.
13:32:58 <AxelPolleres> who in favor of qualifying?
13:33:08 <DaveReynolds> OK
13:33:24 <AxelPolleres> 0 yes, 4 against, 7 undecided.
13:33:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: in the RIF XML syntax (as long as we stick with this non-RDF style), attributes will have no namespace (so that we can avoid "rif:" in documents)
13:34:37 <meetingroom> meetingroom has joined #rif
13:34:55 <AdrianP> +1
13:35:08 <sandro> PROPOSED: in the RIF XML syntax (as long as we stick with this non-RDF style), attributes will have no namespace (be unqualified)  (so that we can avoid "rif:" in documents)
13:35:11 <josb> +1
13:35:24 <sandro> +1
13:35:30 <DaveReynolds> 0
13:35:33 <Harold> +1
13:36:02 <AdrianP> +1
13:36:13 <GaryHallmark> +1
13:36:16 <IgorMozetic> +1
13:36:25 <sandro> RESOLVED: in the RIF XML syntax (as long as we stick with this non-RDF style), attributes will have no namespace (be unqualified)  (so that we can avoid "rif:" in documents)
13:36:36 <AxelPolleres> Andreas: RDF or XSLT use that differently... there seems not to be an agreed treatment.
13:36:44 <Harold> Dave's 2n bullet refers to this XSD snippet:
13:36:45 <Harold>  <xs:element name="Const">
13:36:45 <Harold>    <xs:complexType mixed="true">
13:36:45 <Harold>      <xs:sequence/>
13:36:45 <Harold>      <xs:attribute name="type" type="xs:string" use="required"/>
13:36:45 <Harold>    </xs:complexType>
13:36:47 <Harold>  </xs:element>
13:37:00 <AxelPolleres> Christian: next one. Dave suggests 2) rif:type should be resticted to anyURI rather than xsd:string.
13:38:08 <AxelPolleres> ... content of the type cannot be a number, must be a IRI.
13:39:00 <AxelPolleres> sandro: slight hesitation for anyURI vs. IRI.
13:39:21 <AxelPolleres> ... but that could just be a bugfix.
13:39:33 <sandro> ACTION: Harold to change type of "type" attribute to xs:anyURI (from xs:string)
13:39:34 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-497 - Change type of \"type\" attribute to xs:anyURI (from xs:string) [on Harold Boley - due 2008-06-03].
13:39:54 <AxelPolleres> josb: in XML Schema datatypes 1.1 anyURI is also used for IRIs.
13:40:12 <AxelPolleres> Christian: my own comments on BLD.
13:41:01 <sandro> MichaelKifer: Right, it doesn't make sense to have these things (Equal, Subclass, etc) be external.
13:41:17 <AxelPolleres> ... Equal, Member, Subclass should not be allowed to be External.
13:42:04 <AxelPolleres> ...also Frame. Suggestion: limit External to ATOMIC.
13:45:45 <AxelPolleres> ... discussing External terms in property position in Frames.
13:48:23 <AxelPolleres> Michael: We can disallow some things in External.
13:50:18 <AxelPolleres> Discussion about the respective parts of the BLD grammar.
13:51:01 <AxelPolleres> Christian: currently Externals allowed in slotname position in Frames in BLD.
13:51:13 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: Should this now be restrictd?
13:51:20 <AxelPolleres> s/td/ted/
13:52:51 <AxelPolleres> Christian: Still usure about External(Frame)
13:53:23 <AxelPolleres> Michael: The semantics is precisely defined.
13:55:18 <AxelPolleres> Christian and Michael trying to clarify what an External Frame actualy means.
13:59:26 <AxelPolleres> ... we agreed to disallow external Equal, Member, Subclass.
13:59:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Replace Exterman(ATOMIC) with External(ATOM_BASE or FRAME) ... ?
13:59:35 <AxelPolleres> ... External Frame still under discussion.
14:02:34 <AxelPolleres> sandro: doubts about External used as extension mechanism
14:02:56 <AxelPolleres> axel: I thought the set of external schemas is FIXED per dialect.
14:03:03 <AxelPolleres> Michael: no.
14:03:19 <AxelPolleres> ... that is an extension mechanism.
14:06:25 <AxelPolleres> axel: RIF FLD says "RIF dialects are always associated with sets of coherent signatures"... I am confused now.
14:07:08 <AxelPolleres> Discussion is whether defining an own external Schema is a new dialect, i.e. an extension, or no. 
14:07:43 <AxelPolleres> Igor: External could be a SPARQL query, yes?
14:08:16 <sandro> MichaelKifer: If you add some datatypes or externals, then you have a bigger dialect than BLD.
14:08:19 <sandro> Sandro: Right.
14:08:33 <AxelPolleres> MichaelKifer: If you add some datatypes or externals, then you have a bigger dialect than BLD.
14:08:40 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: Right.
14:08:43 <sandro> Sandro: It's all about the software to you have to have installed to make use of the document.
14:10:25 <sandro> csma: So External(Frame) may be in BLD, but not be used except in BLD-extended.
14:10:28 <sandro> Sandro: right....
14:10:56 <sandro> MichaelKifer: Internal Frame defined by rules or facts; External Frame defined by something like a java program.
14:11:34 <sandro> Gary: Read-Only.
14:11:37 <sandro> MichaelKifer: Yes.
14:12:13 <AdrianP> Compliance with BLD should not require that your implementation supports external frames and other experssive features such as procedural attachments (which are for sure needed in real-world implementation) 
14:12:18 <AxelPolleres> Michael: It is like a blackbox.
14:12:46 <AxelPolleres> ... external Equal would be possible to define, but wouldn't make sense to use, actually.
14:12:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: Change External(ATOMIC) to External(ATOM) or External(Frame).
14:14:07 <sandro> +0 still a little hazy about defing this without defining how to use it, but okay....
14:14:20 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: broken link in BLD to "coherent set of such schemas associated[...]"
14:14:23 <sandro> PROPOSED: Change External(ATOMIC) to External(Atom) or External(Frame).
14:14:31 <sandro> +0 still a little hazy about defing this without defining how to use it, but okay....
14:14:31 <josb> -0
14:14:31 <DaveReynolds> -0.5
14:14:39 <AxelPolleres> 0.0
14:14:46 <IgorMozetic> +1
14:14:59 <GaryHallmark> +0
14:15:17 <sandro> DaveReynolds:: If we're going to have external frames, they need to be much more clearly explained in the document.
14:15:26 <AxelPolleres> 0.0 (not sure why external frames needed and not just External(Atom) )
14:15:46 <josb> For the record: I think they're useless
14:16:06 <sandro> PROPOSED: Change External(ATOMIC) to External(Atom).
14:16:19 <josb> +1
14:16:26 <IgorMozetic> -1
14:16:59 <Harold> +1
14:17:03 <GaryHallmark> -0.5
14:17:05 <DaveReynolds> I don't object to external frames per se but can't follow how the semantics part of the document supports this.
14:17:47 <sandro> PROPOSED: Change External(ATOMIC) to External(Atom) or External(Frame) and add text explaining how External frames are supported by the semantics.
14:17:57 <IgorMozetic> +1
14:18:04 <josb> -0
14:18:10 <DaveReynolds> -0
14:18:14 <ChrisW> +1
14:18:18 <sandro> +0.5
14:18:19 <Harold> +1
14:18:23 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:18:26 <AdrianP> +1
14:18:41 <sandro> RESOLVED: Change External(ATOMIC) to External(Atom) or External(Frame) and add text explaining how External frames are supported by the semantics.
14:18:45 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:18:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:19:17 <sandro> ACTION: Kifer to add text explaining external frames
14:19:17 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-498 - Add text explaining external frames [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-06-03].
14:19:40 <AxelPolleres> Christian: Next. Christian's comment on NAU limitation
14:20:13 <AxelPolleres> s/NAU/named argument uniterms/
14:20:26 <AxelPolleres> clarified.
14:21:06 <AxelPolleres> Christian: How can we create new symbols when inferring a new frame?
14:21:31 <AxelPolleres> ... proposals: rif:new, skolem terms, existentials in the head.
14:21:55 <AxelPolleres> sandro: writing a translator form N3 to rif needs existentials in the head.
14:22:53 <AxelPolleres> Christian: What was your concrete example?
14:23:01 <AxelPolleres> ... email?
14:24:01 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0158.html
14:24:32 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: Skolemizing would be a fallback.
14:24:40 <AxelPolleres> Adrian: not the same.
14:25:29 <AxelPolleres> Igor: the only problem with skolemization is round-tripping.
14:27:34 <AxelPolleres> Christian: What about having that in a builtin?
14:27:45 <AxelPolleres> Michael: not possible as a builtin.
14:29:27 <AxelPolleres> ... rif:new should be symbol not a constant (not an external) that each time you use it is interpreted differently.
14:30:56 <AxelPolleres> Discussion skolem function vs. new constant ongoing.
14:32:16 <josb> +1 burden on user
14:32:39 <AxelPolleres> ChrisW: What about making skolem funcs a special datatype.
14:32:43 <AxelPolleres> ...?
14:33:05 <AxelPolleres> Michael: It could be a subsymbolspace of rif:local
14:36:22 <AxelPolleres> Dicussion of whether something like gensym is possible.
14:36:54 <josb> +1 burden on user
14:37:21 <AxelPolleres> +1 to +1 of jos.
14:38:03 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
14:38:05 <AxelPolleres> Shall we go on? Don't see this being resolved soon. We had more promising discussions being cut off today already
14:38:35 <AxelPolleres> Christian: We are starting to run in circles.
14:39:20 <sandro> Gary: std metadata would be fine.
14:39:22 <AxelPolleres> ... if we decide we want this, it will delay. Is it worth? 
14:39:28 <AxelPolleres> many no's.
14:39:33 <sandro> Sandro: right.    forget about this for now.     some std metadata later, maybe.
14:39:52 <AxelPolleres> break now.
14:39:59 <AxelPolleres> 20min until 4.
14:55:00 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:55:59 <Harold> Guizhen Yang and Michael Kifer, Reasoning about Anonymous Resources and Meta Statements on the Semantic Web: http://www.wsmo.org/wsml/papers/presentations/lausen_anonymous_resources.ppt
14:57:26 <Harold> http://www.ai.sri.com/~yang/papers/jods2003.pdf
15:01:03 <AxelPolleres> scribe???
15:01:12 <AxelPolleres> still me? :-)
15:01:23 <sandro> AFTERNOON AGENDA:  Conformance, rdf-syntax-compatibility, xml schema-extensibility, metadata, readers guide
15:02:23 <sandro> csma: then -- identify features at risk, and decide on Last Call for BLD.
15:02:39 <sandro> scribe: AdrianP 
15:02:57 <AdrianP> Topic: BLD open issues
15:03:36 <AdrianP> Chris: compliance definition for BLD
15:04:53 <AdrianP> Michael: separate document for compliance
15:05:06 <AdrianP> Michael: put it in the overview
15:05:25 <AdrianP> Chris: last call document needs conformant statement
15:05:51 <AdrianP> Sandro: agree conceptually it could go into another document
15:06:03 <AdrianP> Sandro: but for now it might be in BLD
15:07:01 <AdrianP> Harold: what about FLD
15:07:19 <AdrianP> Chris: put it in BLD for now
15:07:38 <Harold> The general part in FLD doc, the BLD dialect in BLD doc?
15:07:56 <Harold> s/dialect /dialect part/
15:08:22 <AxelPolleres> What about putting it into UCR? We should have a kinda fair distribution among the docs... ;-)
15:08:26 <sandro> PROPOSED: add the text on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conformance (more or less) to BLD, probably near the next....
15:10:30 <DaveReynolds> I suggested "Document Conformance" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0201.html
15:11:32 <AdrianP> Sandro: statement about syntactic RIF consumer , RIF producer compliance
15:12:22 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:12:34 <sandro> ack DaveReynolds 
15:12:42 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, DaveReynolds, Mike_Dean
15:12:43 <Zakim> Meeting_Room has MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP, IgorMozetic, sandro, aharth, GaryHallmark, josb, johnhall, csma, ChrisW, AxelPolleres
15:13:29 <AdrianP> Dave: question: is schema validation actually enough to validate conformance?
15:14:04 <sandro> "A conformant BLD Document is one which conforms to all the constraints of this document, including ones which cannot be checked by XML Schema validator".
15:14:58 <AdrianP> Michael: well-formed vs. semantically correct use
15:16:07 <AdrianP> Sandro: RIF consumers must reject a BLD document if .... constraints are not met
15:20:58 <AdrianP> Sandro: for rule engines as consumers we should say something about when a BLD document needs to be rejected
15:21:07 <josb> 26633
15:21:12 <Hassan> thanks
15:21:13 <josb> is the code
15:21:58 <AdrianP> Sandro: for example a BLD document which use e.g. a new construct ActionRule; a consumer must throw an error
15:22:08 <AdrianP> Sandro: it can not silently ignore it
15:22:12 <Zakim> +Hassan
15:23:05 <AdrianP> Chris: you want this strict dialect conformance?
15:23:10 <AdrianP> Sandro: right
15:23:26 <sandro> A BLD+foo processor should have a strict-BLD mode so that it can run in BLD-only mode.
15:25:48 <AdrianP> Chris: we could label it strict conformant and conformant
15:26:51 <AdrianP> Chris: strict conformance is exclusive; conformance is inclusive
15:27:31 <AdrianP> Sandro: we need strict conformance, otherwise people will abuse BLD
15:28:48 <AdrianP> Michael: conformance and loose conformance
15:29:10 <sandro> A BLD processor, strict or loose, must never "repair" inputs or accept input which does not adhere to a standard or third-party defined dialect or extension.
15:30:51 <sandro> MichaelKifer: "In additionan a RIF consumer must reject any documebnt which is not a DTE formula".      
15:32:24 <sandro> "A conformant BLD Document is one which conforms to all the constraints of this document, including ones which cannot be checked by XML Schema validator".
15:39:48 <Hassan> Please paste it in the IRC
15:39:53 <sandro> PROPOSED: accept the conformance statement on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conformance for BLD, up to the separator line.
15:40:23 <sandro> +1 good enough for last call
15:40:25 <AdrianP> 0
15:40:27 <IgorMozetic> +1
15:40:27 <DaveReynolds> +0
15:40:31 <Hassan> 0
15:40:32 <Harold> +1
15:40:34 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept the conformance statement on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conformance for BLD, up to the separator line.
15:40:35 <mdean> +0
15:41:13 <AdrianP> Topic: RDF discussion
15:41:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: The normative exchange syntax for RIF will be glass etchings.
15:41:56 <sandro> TOPIC: XML Syntax -- type tagging and RDF/Compatibility
15:42:19 <AdrianP> Chris: type-tagging syntax 
15:42:41 <josb> -0 on conformance statement
15:42:43 <AdrianP> Chris: XSLT transformation from current XML syntax to rigid RDF syntax
15:44:40 <AdrianP> Sandro: some people are allergic using RDF name space
15:45:24 <AdrianP> Chris: current syntax is ordered
15:45:58 <AdrianP> Chris: so we would need to add parsetype collections to get rid of the order for RDF 
15:46:55 <AdrianP> Chris: if you translate into RDF and back the order is lost
15:47:16 <AdrianP> Sandro: sure. if you use a triple store the order is lost
15:47:29 <Harold> The differences 1.-4. in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0099.html can already now be handled as XSLT expansions.
15:47:35 <AdrianP> Christian: but this is your (user) problem
15:47:46 <AdrianP> Christian: you are not forced to use it
15:47:57 <AdrianP> MIchael: What is the problem with the XSLT solution
15:48:18 <AdrianP> Christian: RDF tools can not directly parse a BLD document
15:48:32 <AdrianP> Christian: so you loose a litte bit of openness
15:49:02 <AdrianP> Sandro: you still need to add parsetype collection
15:49:10 <AdrianP> Michael: XSLT will do that
15:49:12 <DaveReynolds> Could use GRDDL so that the document references the correct dialect-specific XSLT.
15:49:52 <AxelPolleres> +1 to Michael and Dave.... rationale, either *real* RDF or don't bother.
15:50:28 <AxelPolleres> ... I find a standard GRDDL an elegant solution.
15:51:19 <AdrianP> Christian: Would you need a different XSLT if you have user-defined functions etc.
15:51:51 <AdrianP> Harold: No. You covered BLD and it can be mirrored by XSLT
15:52:02 <Hassan> I agree with Sandro
15:52:25 <AdrianP> Sandro: it does not provide anything. It does not scale with dialects
15:52:55 <AdrianP> Michael: We give an example and they can modify the XSLT example
15:53:16 <AdrianP> Sandro: How to find this XSLT?
15:53:24 <AdrianP> Michael: they publish it
15:53:28 <DaveReynolds> Sandro - could require a GRDDL entry in the root element for each document (not sure I like it but is dialect friendly)
15:53:32 <AdrianP> Sandro: does not solve anything
15:53:37 <josb> grddl sounds pretty good
15:54:01 <AdrianP> yes, grddl could be a dialect and maybe module solution
15:54:10 <Hassan> Yes with Sandro !!!
15:54:48 <AdrianP> Sandro: I want to use frame rules
15:55:03 <AdrianP> Harold: it is like meta programming
15:55:51 <AdrianP> Chris: only positional arguments can not transformed into frames
15:56:44 <AdrianP> Gary: so let's get rid of positional arguments and name them
15:57:04 <AdrianP> Harold: we had a breakout session about this and slides exsist
15:58:11 <Hassan> +1 with ChrisW
15:58:16 <AdrianP> Sandro: I want frame rules in RIF
15:58:45 <AdrianP> Chris: the only problem is the order
15:59:29 <AdrianP> Sandro: the two options are use numbers on the arguments or have some ordered flag
16:01:19 <AdrianP> Michael: numbers are a general solution
16:01:33 <AdrianP> Igor: follow the principle object-oriented XML
16:02:09 <AdrianP> Gary: isn't is possible to have flag which says if it ordered or not
16:03:37 <AdrianP> Sandro: two questions: how to implement the ordering and do we use rdf namespace to implement a solution
16:03:53 <AdrianP> Gary: people really don't want rdf namespace
16:04:03 <sandro> alternative to RDF ns -- ordered="yes"
16:04:07 <AdrianP> Gary: so use a flag attribute
16:05:11 <Hassan> What's wrong with Gary's proposal (attribute flags)?
16:05:38 <AdrianP> Sandro: yes it solves the frame rule problem and makes me happy
16:06:24 <HaroldBoley> HaroldBoley has joined #rif
16:06:37 <AdrianP> Michael: solves the parsetype problem
16:07:38 <HaroldBoley> On parsing, at position i, <arg> can be expanded to <arg index="i">.
16:08:43 <AdrianP> Sandro: we still have the problem with RDF datatypes
16:10:57 <sandro>    Instead of:
16:10:57 <sandro>         <Const type="&xsd;dateTime">2007-11-23</Const>
16:10:57 <sandro>    it would be:
16:10:57 <sandro>   
16:10:57 <sandro>         <Const>
16:10:58 <sandro>            <rdf:value rdf:datatype="&xsd:dateTime">2007-11-23</rdf:value>
16:11:00 <sandro>         </Const>
16:11:24 <sandro> ts for these:
16:11:24 <sandro>    Instead of:
16:11:24 <sandro>        <Const type="&rif;iri">&cpt;purchase</Const>
16:11:24 <sandro>    it would be:
16:11:24 <sandro>        <Const><rdf:value rdf:resource="&cpt;purchase" /></Const>
16:12:23 <AdrianP> Igor: let's handle these two issues separated
16:12:39 <AdrianP> Igor: if we talk about OO XML XSLT can make it RDF readable
16:13:51 <AdrianP> Christian: requiring XSLT to make it RDF parsable is exactly the same as if we have no RDF compatibility
16:14:35 <AdrianP> Harold: we already have Const and Var
16:14:57 <AdrianP> Michael: It is not clear why we need this rdf:value
16:15:19 <HaroldBoley> <Const>abc</Const> and <Var>xyz</Var> are the leaves of fully striped markup.
16:15:46 <HaroldBoley> They also give Type Tags Const and Var for abc and xyz, resp.
16:15:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: we'll have an "object-oriented" / "type-tagged" /"self-describing" XML, so that frame-rules can operate on RIF documents.   Requires something like numbering arguments or rdf:parsetype="collection" or ordered="yes".
16:16:26 <AdrianP> like ordered="yes"
16:16:39 <IgorMozetic> +1 for Adrian
16:16:40 <sandro> +1
16:16:45 <AdrianP> +1
16:16:52 <GaryHallmark> +1
16:16:53 <Hassan> +1
16:16:54 <josb> 0
16:16:59 <MichaelKifer> <op><Const type="rif:iri">curr:USD</Const></op>
16:16:59 <MichaelKifer>                  <arg><Const type="xsd:integer">49</Const></arg>
16:16:59 <DaveReynolds> 0
16:17:59 <sandro> PROPOSED: we'll have an XML such that frame-rules can operate on RIF documents.   Requires something like numbering arguments or rdf:parsetype="collection" or ordered="yes".
16:18:03 <AdrianP> I understand it like <Atom ordered="yes">...</Atom>?
16:19:42 <AdrianP> Harold: why do we not the oid of a frame, it think named arguments would do it
16:20:04 <sandro> PROPOSED: we'll have an XML such that RIF can operate on RIF documents at a RIF-syntactic-level instead of a DOM level.   Requires something like numbering arguments or rdf:parsetype="collection" or ordered="yes".
16:20:14 <AdrianP> s/Atom/Frame/
16:20:54 <HaroldBoley> +1
16:21:08 <IgorMozetic> +1 for ordered="yes"
16:21:12 <josb> 0
16:21:13 <Hassan> +1
16:21:15 <aharth> +1
16:21:16 <DaveReynolds> 0
16:21:25 <AdrianP> +1 for ordered="yes"
16:21:46 <ChrisW> +0
16:21:47 <AxelPolleres> 0
16:21:55 <sandro> RESOLVED: we'll have an XML such that RIF can operate on RIF documents at a RIF-syntactic-level instead of a DOM level.   Requires something like numbering arguments or rdf:parsetype="collection" or ordered="yes".
16:22:10 <AdrianP> s/Frame/Atom/
16:23:20 <sandro> PROPOSED: use an RDF/XML-compatible syntax for RIF (more-or-less following the suggestions of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0099.html)
16:23:35 <AdrianP> -1
16:23:36 <HaroldBoley> -1
16:23:42 <IgorMozetic> -1
16:23:49 <GaryHallmark> +1
16:23:53 <DaveReynolds> +0.5
16:23:55 <MichaelKifer> -1
16:23:56 <Hassan> +1
16:23:58 <sandro> +1
16:24:04 <aharth> +1
16:24:04 <josb> 0
16:24:27 <AxelPolleres> 0
16:24:54 <ChrisW> +1
16:26:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: use an RDF/XML-compatible syntax for RIF (more-or-less following the suggestions of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0099.html) provided it does not make RIF implementations need to know anything about RDF.
16:26:10 <AdrianP> Harold: You could easily transform the stripped version into a version with stripe skipping, e.g. XSLT would remove the slots
16:26:32 <HaroldBoley> Alex Kozlenkov's email implies -1 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0204.html)
16:26:51 <AdrianP> Adrian: you then would have a much more compact representation
16:27:10 <sandro> Igor: I would not object
16:27:40 <sandro> Adrian: I will object to publishing to BLD if it includes the RDF namespace in any way.
16:28:24 <sandro> (totally mis-scribed.)
16:28:26 <sandro> (sorry)
16:28:35 <sandro> (I can't follow what Adrian is saying.)
16:28:46 <Hassan> (me neither - no mike)
16:29:31 <sandro> Adrian: My objection is that it blows up the syntax, making it larger, adding the <name/value> stripes.
16:29:55 <apaschke> apaschke has joined #rif
16:30:12 <sandro> MichaelKifer: I would object
16:30:18 <sandro> HaroldBoley: I would object
16:30:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: we will NOT use an RDF/XML-compatible syntax for RIF
16:30:49 <apaschke> <Const>abc</Const> is very compact and is easy to read and learn
16:31:19 <sandro> csma: it would be stupid, but I'm not going to object.
16:31:30 <Hassan> I do not understand why we need to close a door for a potentially useful compatibility
16:32:21 <sandro> Chris: I agree, it's pretty stupid to go this way.   But, oh well, we do.
16:33:41 <Hassan> (cannot hear well)
16:34:17 <sandro> straw poll:      <arg index="3">    vs     <args orderer="yes">
16:34:46 <apaschke> <Atom ordered="yes"> ... </Atom>
16:35:34 <sandro>         <formula>
16:35:34 <sandro>            <Atom>
16:35:34 <sandro>              <op><Const ... /></op>
16:35:34 <sandro>              <args rdf:parseType="Collection">
16:35:34 <sandro> 	       <Var> ... </Var>
16:35:35 <sandro>                <Var> ... </Var>
16:35:37 <sandro>                <Const .../>
16:35:39 <sandro>              </args>
16:35:41 <sandro>            </Atom>
16:35:45 <sandro>         </formula>
16:35:47 <sandro>  
16:36:10 <apaschke> Christian: it is not fully stripped
16:36:32 <apaschke> Christian: no, I retracted to what I said
16:36:51 <apaschke> Harold: We could also put it on <Atom>
16:37:27 <sandro>         <formula>
16:37:27 <sandro>            <Atom>
16:37:27 <sandro>              <op><Const ... /></op>
16:37:27 <sandro>              <args ordered="yes">
16:37:27 <sandro> 	       <Var> ... </Var>
16:37:28 <sandro>                <Var> ... </Var>
16:37:30 <sandro>                <Const .../>
16:37:32 <sandro>              </args>
16:37:34 <sandro>            </Atom>
16:37:36 <sandro>         </formula>
16:37:38 <sandro>  
16:40:38 <sandro>          <formula>
16:40:38 <sandro>            <Atom>
16:40:38 <sandro>              <op><Const ... /></op>
16:40:38 <sandro>              <arg index="1"><Var> ... </Var></arg>
16:40:38 <sandro>              <arg index="2"><Var> ... </Var></arg>
16:40:39 <sandro>              <arg index="3"><Const .../></arg>
16:40:41 <sandro>            </Atom>
16:40:45 <sandro>         </formula>
16:41:30 <sandro>         <formula>
16:41:30 <sandro>            <Atom>
16:41:30 <sandro>              <op><Const ... /></op>
16:41:30 <sandro>              <args rif:ordered="yes">
16:41:30 <sandro> 	       <Var> ... </Var>
16:41:31 <sandro>                <Var> ... </Var>
16:41:33 <sandro>                <Const .../>
16:41:35 <sandro>              </args>
16:41:37 <sandro>            </Atom>
16:41:39 <sandro>         </formula>
16:42:09 <sandro> Chris: straw poll -- unanymous to do it in the ordered way.
16:42:38 <apaschke> Chris: put ordered attribute on Atom
16:45:19 <apaschke> Harold: we could have convention that arguments and members of lists are ordered, by default
16:45:32 <Hassan> Using conventions and expecting people to follow them is NOT a good idea 
16:45:56 <apaschke> Sandro: it is not simpler
16:46:23 <IgorMozetic> +1 Hassan
16:46:27 <sandro>      <slot>
16:46:27 <sandro>        <Prop>
16:46:27 <sandro>           <key><Const type="rif:iri">cpt:buyer</Const></key>
16:46:27 <sandro>           <val><Var>Buyer</Var></val>
16:46:27 <sandro>        </Prop>
16:46:28 <sandro>      </slot>
16:46:30 <sandro> =>
16:46:32 <sandro>      <slot rif:ordered="yes">
16:46:34 <sandro>         <Const type="rif:iri">cpt:buyer</Const>
16:46:36 <sandro>         <Var>Buyer</Var>
16:46:38 <sandro>      </slot>
16:46:40 <sandro>   
16:47:51 <apaschke> What about this:
16:47:53 <apaschke> <formula>
16:48:25 <apaschke>      <Atom ordered=”yes”>
16:48:36 <apaschke>      <op><Const ... /></op>
16:48:45 <apaschke>      <arg><Var> ... </Var></arg>
16:48:55 <apaschke> ...
16:48:56 <apaschke> </formula>
16:49:05 <sandro>      <slots>
16:49:05 <sandro>         <Const type="rif:iri">cpt:buyer</Const>
16:49:05 <sandro>         <Var>Buyer</Var>
16:49:05 <sandro>      </slots>
16:49:05 <sandro>   
16:50:34 <sandro> PROPOSED: use an XML attribute rif:ordered="yes" (as exemplified above) which works like rdf:parseType="Collection"   (and rif:type attribute gets qualified again.)
16:50:59 <Hassan> +1
16:51:04 <IgorMozetic> +1
16:51:06 <GaryHallmark> +1
16:51:15 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room
16:51:21 <DaveReynolds> What does "works like rdf..." mean - will you have a seq/list type in RIF frames?
16:51:26 <Hassan> no phone...
16:51:29 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:51:37 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
16:51:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
16:51:55 <HaroldBoley> PROPOSED: use an XML attribute rif:ordered="yes" (as exemplified above) or using an equivalent unique method to specify order, which works like rdf:parseType="Collection"   (and rif:type attribute gets qualified again.)
16:52:05 <csma> csma has joined #rif
16:52:10 <Zakim> +??P6
16:52:24 <Zakim> +??P9
16:52:27 <csma> meeting room has been cut off the phone
16:52:31 <Hassan> yes
16:52:33 <csma> trying to call back
16:52:40 <sandro> Zakim, ??P9 is Meeting_Room
16:52:40 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it
16:53:31 <HaroldBoley> +1
16:53:47 <sandro> +1
16:53:54 <GaryHallmark> +1
16:53:56 <josb> 0
16:53:57 <apaschke> +1
16:54:03 <Hassan> +1
16:54:06 <mdean> +1
16:54:25 <sandro> DaveReynolds, I mean as far as the grammar and general purpose/intent.
16:54:31 <Hassan> Arguing about arguments? A meta-argument...? ;-)
16:54:57 <sandro> RESOLVED: use an XML attribute rif:ordered="yes" (as exemplified above) or using an equivalent unique method to specify order, which works like rdf:parseType="Collection"   (and rif:type attribute gets qualified again.)
16:55:03 <DaveReynolds> Sandro - I guessed that :-) but if the goal is to make RIF manipulatable by RIF you have to close that gap and specify the mapping.
16:55:24 <apaschke> Metadata
16:55:55 <sandro> Topic: Metadata
16:56:39 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0036.html
16:58:14 <apaschke> Harold: explains proposal for metadata
17:00:12 <apaschke> Jos: Why isn't identifier simply and IRI?
17:00:26 <apaschke> Michael: yes, it can be an iri
17:00:48 <apaschke> Sandro: Curries?
17:01:02 <apaschke> Jos: Link between metadata and identifier?
17:01:40 <apaschke> Harold: now it is totally decoupled
17:01:47 <apaschke> Jos: what is the advantage?
17:02:13 <apaschke> Michael: it gives you more freedom, refer to other pieces to metadata
17:03:15 <Hassan> I have the same questions as Jos...
17:04:28 <apaschke> Sandro: in the example is pd identifier for the group?
17:04:41 <apaschke> Jos: it is the identifier of the frame not of the group
17:05:15 <apaschke> Michael: there is no formal relation
17:06:31 <apaschke> Christian: I would like to say that a certain rule is called "cmp" in a group of rules containing only one rule
17:06:34 <sandro> *i _g1 *m _g2[dc:creator->"csma"] Group (  ...  )
17:06:57 <sandro> *i _g1 *m _g1[dc:creator->"csma"] Group (  ...  )
17:07:26 <Hassan> ???
17:07:42 <sandro> Hassan, the syntax is from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0036.html
17:08:01 <Hassan> I know - I did not understand your example Sandro
17:08:37 <apaschke> Harold: we allow crossreferences between metadata
17:08:58 <apaschke> Jos: I dissagree with the snapshot proposal
17:10:07 <apaschke> Jos: with the new proposal we can identify rules, so it overcomes my issue
17:11:00 <apaschke> Harold: it is open how deep it will go ; could be on var
17:11:33 <sandro> annotation(......
17:12:29 <apaschke> Sandro: id and meta roles; optional
17:12:44 <apaschke> Harold: XML syntax is given in the end of document
17:14:02 <apaschke> Christian: compatibility with PRD, a rule set will have parameters, how do I distinguish a group with and without parameters
17:14:09 <apaschke> Sandro: you make different groups
17:14:36 <Hassan> e.eg priority
17:15:07 <Hassan> for ruleflow synchrony as well
17:15:31 <Hassan> s/e.eg/e.g./
17:16:01 <Hassan> Ruleset parameters change the semantics of the ruleset
17:16:19 <apaschke> Michael: it has nothing to with metadata, currently group has no parameters
17:17:10 <apaschke> Christian: Group can be used in other dialects, PRD
17:17:44 <apaschke> Christian: Currently in PRD you have ruleset, we could use the same syntax
17:17:51 <HaroldBoley>   Group     ::= 'Group' IRIMETA? '(' (RULE | Group)* ')'
17:17:56 <apaschke> Sandro: it is orthogonal to metadata
17:18:23 <DaveReynolds> +1 to Sandro (I need to go soon and would like to get to the end of the metadata discussion)
17:19:09 <apaschke> +1 to Sandro and Hassan, let's decide on metadata or postpone it
17:19:13 <HaroldBoley> Hassan, I think people want to have dinner very soon here. So I guess only a few minutes left.
17:20:11 <DaveReynolds> I object to use of unconstrained formulas for the metadata
17:20:19 <apaschke> Gary: Why is it a formula?
17:20:39 <apaschke> Sandro: Metadata could be in a separate document
17:21:47 <Zakim> -Hassan
17:22:40 <IgorMozetic> +1
17:22:41 <sandro> sandro: two ids the same -- syntax error?
17:22:46 <sandro> Harold: I think so....
17:22:49 <DaveReynolds> I will miss significant parts of tomorrow. For the record I would formally oppose an unconstrained notion of metadata. Conjunctions of frames would be ok.
17:22:51 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:22:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-rif-minutes.html sandro
17:24:57 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
17:26:08 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:30:01 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room
17:30:03 <Zakim> Team_(rif)12:50Z has ended
17:30:04 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer, Harold, AdrianP, IgorMozetic, sandro, aharth, GaryHallmark, josb, johnhall, csma, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, Hassan, Meeting_Room
18:59:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif
20:28:30 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
20:35:29 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
20:46:36 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif