07:32:55 RRSAgent has joined #svg 07:32:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-irc 07:32:56 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:32:56 Zakim has joined #svg 07:32:58 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 07:32:58 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng 07:32:59 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 07:33:00 Date: 23 May 2008 07:33:09 scribe: erik 07:33:14 scribeNick: ed 07:33:26 Topic: moving to public cvs 07:34:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0111.html 07:34:44 AG: my idea was to organize by spec / module 07:36:19 ...it's easier to make testsuites per module then 07:37:09 ...you can link the tests with the spec and vice versa 07:37:17 ...the relative links would be smaller 07:37:58 DS: for errata and revisions of the module we can do it in this structure 07:38:44 DS: what mistakes in the old structure were in the old structure? 07:39:32 AE: [drawing on whiteboard] 07:39:52 ...explaining new structure 07:42:21 ...separate old specs from the new ones, like have an 'archive' directory with the old stuff 07:42:54 - root 07:43:02 + modules 07:43:19 Zakim, help 07:43:19 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 07:43:21 Some of the commands I know are: 07:43:22 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 07:43:24 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 07:43:27 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 07:43:29 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 07:43:31 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 07:43:33 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 07:43:35 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 07:43:37 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 07:43:39 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 07:43:42 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 07:43:45 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 07:43:47 list conferences - reports the active conferences 07:43:48 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 07:43:49 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 07:43:51 I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/05/23 23:42:09 $ 07:44:27 deane has left #svg 07:46:08 ED: is it necessary to move the old specs over to the new cvs? 07:46:20 DS: well, the files but not the history 07:46:30 AE: well the history can't be moved anyway I guess 07:47:00 Zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go homo 07:47:00 ok, anthony 07:47:16 * root 07:47:17 - modules 07:47:17 + compositing 07:47:17 + filters 07:47:17 - core 07:47:18 + 1.2T 07:47:19 + 2.0 07:47:21 + XP 07:47:23 - profiles 07:47:25 + 1.1F 07:47:27 + 1.2F 07:47:29 - archive 07:47:31 + 07:47:33 - tools 07:49:55 aemmons has joined #svg 07:50:13 AG: the testsuite revision numbers will change, which is a problem 07:51:28 DS, AE: true, let's publish the testsuite update first, then move it to new cvs-space 07:51:52 ...which means we'll have to regenerate the reference images and fix revision numbers for the next publication 07:52:49 AE: so who moves the specs to public cvs? 07:52:53 DS: that would be me 07:53:20 ...you will also need cvs access to the new structure /WG and /IG 07:56:34 topic: SVG in HTML 07:58:10 TZ: there are many problems to solve parsing, compound documents etc 07:58:22 DS: at this point the parsing thing is the focus 07:59:07 ...we should list the other issues though, but it's probably something for the CDF group to look at 07:59:42 ...to be included in the proposal 08:00:46 TZ: some things are very important to SVG, and I think SVG should specify them 08:01:16 DS: though some things like navigation are generic, and apply outside of SVG too 08:02:42 Here are the considerations about integrating SVG in HTML (and any other hosting languages): 08:02:43 Topic: 1.2 modules 08:04:16 AE: would be good to move the module table to the new wiki 08:04:32 ACTION: AG to move the svg module table to the new wiki 08:04:34 Created ACTION-2037 - Move the svg module table to the new wiki [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30]. 08:06:24 Topic: SVG in HTML 08:06:40 Parsing 08:06:41 Re-flow management 08:06:41 Rendering/Drawing 08:06:41 CSS integration 08:06:41 JS context 08:06:41 Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to hosted language 08:06:43 Focus Navigation 08:06:46 API integration 08:06:47 Parsing 08:06:49 Re-flow management 08:06:51 Rendering/Drawing 08:06:53 CSS integration 08:06:55 JS context 08:06:57 Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to hosted language 08:06:59 Focus Navigation 08:07:01 API integration 08:07:03 Parsing 08:07:19 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/SVG_Tiny 08:07:49 http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html 08:07:56 Topic: 1.2 modules 08:08:05 Scribe: aemmons 08:08:11 Chair: Erik 08:08:58 ED: Have we published compisiting as first public WD yet? 08:09:02 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/ 08:09:04 AN: Not yet 08:09:20 s/AN/AG/ 08:09:53 AG: Pretty straightforward from 1.2 Full WD proposals 08:09:59 AG: Formatted like print spec 08:11:04 AG: Does it contain 1.1 compisiting? 08:11:07 AG: No 08:11:21 AE: Should it? To bring it up to 1.1 full? 08:12:03 AG: Perhaps separate module? Masking and clipping? 08:12:13 AE: Depends on how small we want our modules 08:13:24 AE: Ahh, yes it is in our charter 08:13:44 AE: Two different modules there 08:13:52 TZ: Where is global opacity fit? 08:14:55 AG: Yes, global opacity with 1.1 should be in this module 08:15:20 ACTION: Anthony to add 1.1 full opacity to compositing module 08:15:25 Created ACTION-2038 - Add 1.1 full opacity to compositing module [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30]. 08:18:09 ED: These should not be specific for SVG - good if it can be used for a different language 08:18:17 ED: Would like to see it as a requirement 08:19:25 AE: What about print? 08:19:52 AG: I have to respond to comments, been busy with SVG testsuite 08:20:42 ED: Compititing defines enable-background and filters does as well 08:20:54 ED: It defines how to build a background image 08:21:04 ED: I am saying we should not try and define again 08:21:12 AG: How is it defined in filters? 08:21:21 AG: I thought it was filters only 08:21:36 ED: It would probably be the same, 08:22:22 AG: If you want compositing but not filters, what do you do? 08:22:39 AG: Have done a complete description for enable-background incompositing 08:22:45 AG: In the primer 08:26:26 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/#AccessBackgroundImage 08:26:53 ED: In the filter module there is wording to say host language is responsible for defining a set of element 08:30:32 AE:[ Discussion on what to do with common attributes] 08:31:20 AE: We can have common attributes, definitions, etc in a seperate document and peices taken from them when the spec is generated so that they re-use the same definition 08:31:46 DS: We could have a separate spec what has these that modules reference 08:32:59 DS: Perhaps same concept with full, brings in all modules as it generates the spec 08:33:48 TZ: Should have a dependency graph 08:33:53 DS: Yes 08:34:26 DS: I think we should ask other implementers what the most usefl formt would be. Seperate modules in the final form or seperate modules? 08:37:10 AE: What about gradients? 08:37:40 ED: We need an editor for all modules, this does not have one 08:46:36 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/SVGCompositing.html 08:48:48 Resolution: We will have assertions tagged and formatted directly in the module specifications like SVG Print and Compositing. This will help testsuite development 08:49:01 DS: I do not like MUST in ALL CAPS 08:49:06 DS: Helps readability 08:49:11 DS: Also may be a large section 08:49:17 DS: Assertions are really small 08:49:45 DS: Looks like a list of things as opposed to spec prose 08:50:09 ACtion: Erik to mark up assertions in current filter module specs 08:50:14 Created ACTION-2039 - Mark up assertions in current filter module specs [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30]. 08:51:16 ED: perhaps different classes for different assertions 08:51:43 ED: Transformations module? 08:52:51 Resolution: Canon to be editor of Transformations module 08:55:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/ 09:14:28 Topic: SVGPath normalization 09:14:53 AE: The issue is normalizing Q and T to C 09:15:09 AE: JSR-287 does not normalizae in this way 09:15:31 AE: Also, helps implementations which are based on OpenVG 09:16:16 AE: Still maintain hardware acceleration benefits for various curve types 09:16:26 AE: Because OpenVG can do this 09:16:53 ED: It is defined differently in SVG 1.1 - will be incompatible and need an eratta 09:17:33 ED: SVG 1.1 full tells you you must normalize it to curve to 09:17:39 ED: how it is drawn it is the same 09:18:12 ED: SVGPathAnimatedPathData 09:18:29 ED: It is implemented in Opera and Batik 09:18:29 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedPathData 09:19:42 ED: The Tiny specs says you must normalize quads - will have to change 1.2 and 1.1 09:19:58 ED: But, little content using the 1.1 SVGAnimatedPathData 09:20:33 AE: Summarize - increased compatibilty with JSR-287 and better opportinuty for hardware acceleration using OpenVG 09:20:45 AE: con - incompatible with 1.1 09:51:53 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#Attribute_Normalization 09:52:29 remove Translate command Q to command 09:52:49 change: Translate command T to command C 09:52:52 to Translate command T to command Q 09:53:56 Resolution: We will remove Q to C normalization requirement from 1.2 and 1.1 09:55:09 Action: Aemmons to make and errata item for 1.1 and modify uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization 09:55:09 Created ACTION-2040 - Make and errata item for 1.1 and modify uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-30]. 11:03:31 Topic: XHR 11:03:49 ED: XHR is in Last Call 11:04:00 ED: Dues date for comments beginning of June 11:04:17 ED: Have asked us for comments 11:04:23 http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/ 11:04:38 ED: 2nd of June 11:05:46 ED: Should ask people on the group for comments 11:05:59 ED: To me it looks fine 11:10:04 Action: Erik to send e-mail to the list asking for XHR feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon 11:10:04 Created ACTION-2041 - Send e-mail to the list asking for XHR feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30]. 11:10:29 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterPrimer12/ 11:10:43 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/ 11:11:02 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterReqs12/ 11:11:33 Topic: Close path normalization 11:12:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0015.html 11:13:19 AE: Do you think we need a change to the spec to make it more clear? 11:13:21 ED: Yes 11:16:58 ED: We should add to uDOM normalization section 11:18:24 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#PathNormalization 11:20:24 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/paths.html#PathDataClosePathCommand 11:24:58 "Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s, t, v, and z) are converted to their absolute counterparts." 11:26:52 "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." 11:27:00 "Translate command Z to command Z. Although a 'closepath' has a superficial visual resemblance to a 'lineto', command Z must not be normalized to a 'lineto'." 11:28:14 Action, Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." 11:28:27 Action: Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." 11:28:27 Created ACTION-2042 - Add path normalization wording to uDOM. \"A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined.\" [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30]. 11:28:57 AE: and the wording above that: Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s, t, v, and z) are converted to their absolute counterparts." 11:29:25 Topic: Explicit values for getSegmentParam() 11:29:40 ED: We should list the max index value for each comand to have it interropable 11:30:13 AE: MOVE_TO, LINE_TO 2 11:30:18 AE: CURVE_TO, 6 11:30:24 AE: QUAD_TO, 4 11:30:32 AE: CLOSE , 0! 11:30:38 AE: CLOSE, 0 11:31:09 Action, Aemmons to add clarification to getSegmentParam for the max index 11:40:01 AE: Approved: udom-svgpath-201-t.svg 11:40:15 AE: Aprroved: udom-svgpath-202-t.svg 11:40:37 s/Aprroved/Approved/ 11:47:15 scrab: atanas 11:48:15 AG: Talks about Shear transform 11:50:13 AG: 2.5 vs. 3D 11:59:45 AG: TO do a real 3D perspective, we really need 4 x 4 matrixes 12:00:14 because with 3 x 3 we can only rotate in one of the planes 12:00:51 TZ: THis sounds great, except that the processing power requared for that will be prohibitive 12:01:30 We did experiment with 3 x 3 and this added significant overhead in the pipeline, but was acceptable 12:02:28 Considering 4 x 4, i think would be unacceptable from performance perspective 12:05:08 I would suggest extending the Markup to follow OpenGL/ES spec and utilize the real 3D HW pipeline available today in the market 12:06:54 The idea is to have the XML be structured the way OpenGL would expect to find and utilize the power of the HW on that - so this would be a real 3D extension (Module)of SVG. 12:17:51 MikeSmith has joined #svg 12:24:03 AG: Cannon believe that to achieve some of the features we need to support 4 x 4 12:25:09 AE: Do we have to be concern about mobile or SVG in general is a different question. 12:26:53 DS: Does it really fit in SVG, I would really concentrate the resources on integration with HTML and so forth. 12:43:08 CL: What are other rendering libraries are doing (other than OpenVG) 12:43:43 AG: They normaly do 3 x 3 12:47:30 CS: AG: Can we animate matrix 12:47:30 CL: There shall be a way to do that 12:47:30 CL: To support 3 x 3 we also have to normalize it, because how are we going to do calculation of 2 x 3 with 3 x 3 12:53:34 AE: Are you satisfied with the conclusion 12:53:34 AG: Not sure if 3 x3 would be OK yet 12:53:34 AG: I was also looking at the reflection filter - angle and scale offset do a similar effect. 12:54:47 ED: I think it is possible to do that. 12:55:28 DS: I'd like to do a flip keyword 12:56:35 CL: TO add more staff to animate transforms - like scale, flip, around arbitrary point and to add extra filter to take optional transform �. 12:56:40 ... 12:57:10 ... a vector filter that uses those transform keywords 12:57:48 CL: I would want to also use % in rotate and in relation to what 13:01:18 topic: Close 3x3 4x4 matrix topic 13:03:00 MikeSmith has joined #svg 13:12:01 s/staff/stuff/ 13:15:46 Scribe: aemmons 13:15:52 Topic: CSS and SVG 13:16:01 ...and xsl 13:16:06 DS: Change in members, chairs, would like to make sure we are on the same page 13:16:15 ...work together on the same page 13:16:27 ...Apple has interesting proposals for CSS 13:16:45 ...would like to work with CSS in incorporating these 13:17:15 ...most of our presentation properties are CSS properties 13:17:24 ED: Technically not in the CSS spec 13:17:53 DS: Any transforms, etc should also talk to whoever is specifying Canvas 13:17:59 DS: we both have transforms 13:18:12 DS: XSL as well 13:18:42 AG: We've always had a good working relationship with XSL 13:19:04 DS: And want the same for CSS, etc 13:19:37 DS: Webfonts a good start to coordinate with them 13:20:14 DS: Chris has talked with chairs, - a way forward is a joint task force 13:21:17 DS: We need to schedule a time with them during the Tpac for a meeting 13:21:42 Action: Erik to setup a time to meet CSS during TPac 13:21:43 Created ACTION-2043 - Setup a time to meet CSS during TPac [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30]. 13:23:12 DS: As I understand it is not a high priority for them to do transform enhancements but is a good chance for us to move the web forward 13:36:32 jdaggett_ has joined #svg 13:44:25 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/ 13:45:55 cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG 13:48:29 macbookED:~/w3.org ed2$ cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG 13:48:29 Permission denied (publickey). 13:48:29 cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any) 13:54:18 cvs -d username@dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG 14:03:47 ed has joined #svg 14:04:11 shepazu has joined #svg 14:04:28 aemmons has joined #svg 14:05:36 ChrisL has joined #svg 14:05:51 ed__ has joined #svg 14:12:52 http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/tor/archives/2007/03/svg_priorities_in_firefox_3.html 14:58:22 ed has joined #svg 14:58:51 aemmons has joined #svg 14:59:04 shepazu has joined #svg 15:05:01 http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/svgopen2007-paper/index.html 15:05:08 Cameron's Layout stuff 15:09:26 Topic: Demos! 15:09:51 Topic: BitFlash/Samsung Layers 15:20:11 Demos layers in SVG using a 'layeredG' element, with level attribute that indicates draw order that can be animated, etc 15:27:46 general discussion between structured approach or flat approach. Drawbacks and benifits to both. 15:28:10 rename layeredG to layers and level attribute to layer 15:28:51 perhaps own 1.2 module, layers 15:29:04 Topic: BitFlash/Samsung SCXML 15:38:48 Demonstrated SCXML and SVG working together for complex state machines with no scripting 15:39:27 Mostly adds SMIL events for state entry, exit, change 15:39:36 Very useful for UI 15:47:01 anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time to go homo 15:50:26 zakim, remind me in 2 hours to be awesome 15:50:26 ok, anthony 15:58:41 ChrisL has joined #svg 15:59:00 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview 16:11:34 ChrisL has joined #svg 16:11:36 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/resources/http_php.txt 16:46:08 rrs-agent, make minutes 16:46:24 shepazu has joined #svg 16:46:39 zakim, bye 16:46:39 Zakim has left #svg 16:46:44 rrsagent, make minutes 16:46:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html ed 17:33:50 billyjack has joined #svg 17:50:27 anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time to be awesome 20:47:50 ed has joined #svg 22:00:47 shepazu has joined #svg 23:40:08 MikeSmith has joined #svg