IRC log of svg on 2008-05-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:32:55 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
07:32:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-irc
07:32:56 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:32:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
07:32:58 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
07:32:58 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng
07:32:59 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
07:33:00 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 23 May 2008
07:33:09 [ed]
scribe: erik
07:33:14 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
07:33:26 [ed]
Topic: moving to public cvs
07:34:21 [anthony]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0111.html
07:34:44 [ed]
AG: my idea was to organize by spec / module
07:36:19 [ed]
...it's easier to make testsuites per module then
07:37:09 [ed]
...you can link the tests with the spec and vice versa
07:37:17 [ed]
...the relative links would be smaller
07:37:58 [ed]
DS: for errata and revisions of the module we can do it in this structure
07:38:44 [ed]
DS: what mistakes in the old structure were in the old structure?
07:39:32 [ed]
AE: [drawing on whiteboard]
07:39:52 [ed]
...explaining new structure
07:42:21 [ed]
...separate old specs from the new ones, like have an 'archive' directory with the old stuff
07:42:54 [ed]
- root
07:43:02 [ed]
+ modules
07:43:19 [anthony]
Zakim, help
07:43:19 [Zakim]
Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
07:43:21 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
07:43:22 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
07:43:24 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
07:43:27 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
07:43:29 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
07:43:31 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
07:43:33 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
07:43:35 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
07:43:37 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
07:43:39 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
07:43:42 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
07:43:45 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
07:43:47 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
07:43:48 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
07:43:49 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
07:43:51 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/02/29 01:55:37 $
07:44:27 [deane]
deane has left #svg
07:46:08 [ed]
ED: is it necessary to move the old specs over to the new cvs?
07:46:20 [ed]
DS: well, the files but not the history
07:46:30 [ed]
AE: well the history can't be moved anyway I guess
07:47:00 [anthony]
Zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go homo
07:47:00 [Zakim]
ok, anthony
07:47:16 [ed]
* root
07:47:17 [ed]
- modules
07:47:17 [ed]
+ compositing
07:47:17 [ed]
+ filters
07:47:17 [ed]
- core
07:47:18 [ed]
+ 1.2T
07:47:19 [ed]
+ 2.0
07:47:21 [ed]
+ XP
07:47:23 [ed]
- profiles
07:47:25 [ed]
+ 1.1F
07:47:27 [ed]
+ 1.2F
07:47:29 [ed]
- archive
07:47:31 [ed]
+ <old specs>
07:47:33 [ed]
- tools
07:49:55 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
07:50:13 [ed]
AG: the testsuite revision numbers will change, which is a problem
07:51:28 [ed]
DS, AE: true, let's publish the testsuite update first, then move it to new cvs-space
07:51:52 [ed]
...which means we'll have to regenerate the reference images and fix revision numbers for the next publication
07:52:49 [ed]
AE: so who moves the specs to public cvs?
07:52:53 [ed]
DS: that would be me
07:53:20 [ed]
...you will also need cvs access to the new structure /WG and /IG
07:56:34 [ed]
topic: SVG in HTML
07:58:10 [ed]
TZ: there are many problems to solve parsing, compound documents etc
07:58:22 [ed]
DS: at this point the parsing thing is the focus
07:59:07 [ed]
...we should list the other issues though, but it's probably something for the CDF group to look at
07:59:42 [ed]
...to be included in the proposal
08:00:46 [ed]
TZ: some things are very important to SVG, and I think SVG should specify them
08:01:16 [ed]
DS: though some things like navigation are generic, and apply outside of SVG too
08:02:42 [zlatinski]
Here are the considerations about integrating SVG in HTML (and any other hosting languages):
08:02:43 [ed]
Topic: 1.2 modules
08:04:16 [ed]
AE: would be good to move the module table to the new wiki
08:04:32 [ed]
ACTION: AG to move the svg module table to the new wiki
08:04:34 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2037 - Move the svg module table to the new wiki [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30].
08:06:24 [zlatinski]
Topic: SVG in HTML
08:06:40 [zlatinski]
Parsing
08:06:41 [zlatinski]
Re-flow management
08:06:41 [zlatinski]
Rendering/Drawing
08:06:41 [zlatinski]
CSS integration
08:06:41 [zlatinski]
JS context
08:06:41 [zlatinski]
Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to hosted language
08:06:43 [zlatinski]
Focus Navigation
08:06:46 [zlatinski]
API integration
08:06:47 [zlatinski]
Parsing
08:06:49 [zlatinski]
Re-flow management
08:06:51 [zlatinski]
Rendering/Drawing
08:06:53 [zlatinski]
CSS integration
08:06:55 [zlatinski]
JS context
08:06:57 [zlatinski]
Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to hosted language
08:06:59 [zlatinski]
Focus Navigation
08:07:01 [zlatinski]
API integration
08:07:03 [zlatinski]
Parsing
08:07:19 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/SVG_Tiny
08:07:49 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html
08:07:56 [zlatinski]
Topic: 1.2 modules
08:08:05 [aemmons]
Scribe: aemmons
08:08:11 [aemmons]
Chair: Erik
08:08:58 [aemmons]
ED: Have we published compisiting as first public WD yet?
08:09:02 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/
08:09:04 [aemmons]
AN: Not yet
08:09:20 [anthony]
s/AN/AG/
08:09:53 [aemmons]
AG: Pretty straightforward from 1.2 Full WD proposals
08:09:59 [aemmons]
AG: Formatted like print spec
08:11:04 [aemmons]
AG: Does it contain 1.1 compisiting?
08:11:07 [aemmons]
AG: No
08:11:21 [aemmons]
AE: Should it? To bring it up to 1.1 full?
08:12:03 [aemmons]
AG: Perhaps separate module? Masking and clipping?
08:12:13 [aemmons]
AE: Depends on how small we want our modules
08:13:24 [aemmons]
AE: Ahh, yes it is in our charter
08:13:44 [aemmons]
AE: Two different modules there
08:13:52 [aemmons]
TZ: Where is global opacity fit?
08:14:55 [aemmons]
AG: Yes, global opacity with 1.1 should be in this module
08:15:20 [aemmons]
ACTION: Anthony to add 1.1 full opacity to compositing module
08:15:25 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2038 - Add 1.1 full opacity to compositing module [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30].
08:18:09 [aemmons]
ED: These should not be specific for SVG - good if it can be used for a different language
08:18:17 [aemmons]
ED: Would like to see it as a requirement
08:19:25 [aemmons]
AE: What about print?
08:19:52 [aemmons]
AG: I have to respond to comments, been busy with SVG testsuite
08:20:42 [aemmons]
ED: Compititing defines enable-background and filters does as well
08:20:54 [aemmons]
ED: It defines how to build a background image
08:21:04 [aemmons]
ED: I am saying we should not try and define again
08:21:12 [aemmons]
AG: How is it defined in filters?
08:21:21 [aemmons]
AG: I thought it was filters only
08:21:36 [aemmons]
ED: It would probably be the same,
08:22:22 [aemmons]
AG: If you want compositing but not filters, what do you do?
08:22:39 [aemmons]
AG: Have done a complete description for enable-background incompositing
08:22:45 [aemmons]
AG: In the primer
08:26:26 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/#AccessBackgroundImage
08:26:53 [aemmons]
ED: In the filter module there is wording to say host language is responsible for defining a set of element
08:30:32 [aemmons]
AE:[ Discussion on what to do with common attributes]
08:31:20 [aemmons]
AE: We can have common attributes, definitions, etc in a seperate document and peices taken from them when the spec is generated so that they re-use the same definition
08:31:46 [aemmons]
DS: We could have a separate spec what has these that modules reference
08:32:59 [aemmons]
DS: Perhaps same concept with full, brings in all modules as it generates the spec
08:33:48 [aemmons]
TZ: Should have a dependency graph
08:33:53 [aemmons]
DS: Yes
08:34:26 [aemmons]
DS: I think we should ask other implementers what the most usefl formt would be. Seperate modules in the final form or seperate modules?
08:37:10 [aemmons]
AE: What about gradients?
08:37:40 [aemmons]
ED: We need an editor for all modules, this does not have one
08:46:36 [aemmons]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/SVGCompositing.html
08:48:48 [aemmons]
Resolution: We will have assertions tagged and formatted directly in the module specifications like SVG Print and Compositing. This will help testsuite development
08:49:01 [aemmons]
DS: I do not like MUST in ALL CAPS
08:49:06 [aemmons]
DS: Helps readability
08:49:11 [aemmons]
DS: Also may be a large section
08:49:17 [aemmons]
DS: Assertions are really small
08:49:45 [aemmons]
DS: Looks like a list of things as opposed to spec prose
08:50:09 [aemmons]
ACtion: Erik to mark up assertions in current filter module specs
08:50:14 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2039 - Mark up assertions in current filter module specs [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
08:51:16 [aemmons]
ED: perhaps different classes for different assertions
08:51:43 [aemmons]
ED: Transformations module?
08:52:51 [aemmons]
Resolution: Canon to be editor of Transformations module
08:55:09 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/
09:14:28 [aemmons]
Topic: SVGPath normalization
09:14:53 [aemmons]
AE: The issue is normalizing Q and T to C
09:15:09 [aemmons]
AE: JSR-287 does not normalizae in this way
09:15:31 [aemmons]
AE: Also, helps implementations which are based on OpenVG
09:16:16 [aemmons]
AE: Still maintain hardware acceleration benefits for various curve types
09:16:26 [aemmons]
AE: Because OpenVG can do this
09:16:53 [aemmons]
ED: It is defined differently in SVG 1.1 - will be incompatible and need an eratta
09:17:33 [aemmons]
ED: SVG 1.1 full tells you you must normalize it to curve to
09:17:39 [aemmons]
ED: how it is drawn it is the same
09:18:12 [aemmons]
ED: SVGPathAnimatedPathData
09:18:29 [aemmons]
ED: It is implemented in Opera and Batik
09:18:29 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedPathData
09:19:42 [aemmons]
ED: The Tiny specs says you must normalize quads - will have to change 1.2 and 1.1
09:19:58 [aemmons]
ED: But, little content using the 1.1 SVGAnimatedPathData
09:20:33 [aemmons]
AE: Summarize - increased compatibilty with JSR-287 and better opportinuty for hardware acceleration using OpenVG
09:20:45 [aemmons]
AE: con - incompatible with 1.1
09:51:53 [aemmons]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#Attribute_Normalization
09:52:29 [aemmons]
remove Translate command Q to command
09:52:49 [aemmons]
change: Translate command T to command C
09:52:52 [aemmons]
to Translate command T to command Q
09:53:56 [aemmons]
Resolution: We will remove Q to C normalization requirement from 1.2 and 1.1
09:55:09 [aemmons]
Action: Aemmons to make and errata item for 1.1 and modify uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization
09:55:09 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2040 - Make and errata item for 1.1 and modify uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-30].
11:03:31 [aemmons]
Topic: XHR
11:03:49 [aemmons]
ED: XHR is in Last Call
11:04:00 [aemmons]
ED: Dues date for comments beginning of June
11:04:17 [aemmons]
ED: Have asked us for comments
11:04:23 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/
11:04:38 [aemmons]
ED: 2nd of June
11:05:46 [aemmons]
ED: Should ask people on the group for comments
11:05:59 [aemmons]
ED: To me it looks fine
11:10:04 [aemmons]
Action: Erik to send e-mail to the list asking for XHR feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon
11:10:04 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2041 - Send e-mail to the list asking for XHR feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
11:10:29 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterPrimer12/
11:10:43 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/
11:11:02 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterReqs12/
11:11:33 [aemmons]
Topic: Close path normalization
11:12:29 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0015.html
11:13:19 [aemmons]
AE: Do you think we need a change to the spec to make it more clear?
11:13:21 [aemmons]
ED: Yes
11:16:58 [aemmons]
ED: We should add to uDOM normalization section
11:18:24 [aemmons]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#PathNormalization
11:20:24 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/paths.html#PathDataClosePathCommand
11:24:58 [shepazu]
"Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s, t, v, and z) are converted to their absolute counterparts."
11:26:52 [ed]
"A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."
11:27:00 [shepazu]
"Translate command Z to command Z. Although a 'closepath' has a superficial visual resemblance to a 'lineto', command Z must not be normalized to a 'lineto'."
11:28:14 [aemmons]
Action, Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."
11:28:27 [aemmons]
Action: Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."
11:28:27 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2042 - Add path normalization wording to uDOM. \"A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined.\" [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
11:28:57 [aemmons]
AE: and the wording above that: Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s, t, v, and z) are converted to their absolute counterparts."
11:29:25 [aemmons]
Topic: Explicit values for getSegmentParam()
11:29:40 [aemmons]
ED: We should list the max index value for each comand to have it interropable
11:30:13 [aemmons]
AE: MOVE_TO, LINE_TO 2
11:30:18 [aemmons]
AE: CURVE_TO, 6
11:30:24 [aemmons]
AE: QUAD_TO, 4
11:30:32 [aemmons]
AE: CLOSE , 0!
11:30:38 [aemmons]
AE: CLOSE, 0
11:31:09 [aemmons]
Action, Aemmons to add clarification to getSegmentParam for the max index
11:40:01 [aemmons]
AE: Approved: udom-svgpath-201-t.svg
11:40:15 [aemmons]
AE: Aprroved: udom-svgpath-202-t.svg
11:40:37 [aemmons]
s/Aprroved/Approved/
11:47:15 [zlatinski]
scrab: atanas
11:48:15 [zlatinski]
AG: Talks about Shear transform
11:50:13 [zlatinski]
AG: 2.5 vs. 3D
11:59:45 [zlatinski]
AG: TO do a real 3D perspective, we really need 4 x 4 matrixes
12:00:14 [zlatinski]
because with 3 x 3 we can only rotate in one of the planes
12:00:51 [zlatinski]
TZ: THis sounds great, except that the processing power requared for that will be prohibitive
12:01:30 [zlatinski]
We did experiment with 3 x 3 and this added significant overhead in the pipeline, but was acceptable
12:02:28 [zlatinski]
Considering 4 x 4, i think would be unacceptable from performance perspective
12:05:08 [zlatinski]
I would suggest extending the Markup to follow OpenGL/ES spec and utilize the real 3D HW pipeline available today in the market
12:06:54 [zlatinski]
The idea is to have the XML be structured the way OpenGL would expect to find and utilize the power of the HW on that - so this would be a real 3D extension (Module)of SVG.
12:17:51 [MikeSmith]
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12:24:03 [zlatinski]
AG: Cannon believe that to achieve some of the features we need to support 4 x 4
12:25:09 [zlatinski]
AE: Do we have to be concern about mobile or SVG in general is a different question.
12:26:53 [zlatinski]
DS: Does it really fit in SVG, I would really concentrate the resources on integration with HTML and so forth.
12:43:08 [zlatinski]
CL: What are other rendering libraries are doing (other than OpenVG)
12:43:43 [zlatinski]
AG: They normaly do 3 x 3
12:47:30 [zlatinski]
CS: AG: Can we animate matrix
12:47:30 [zlatinski]
CL: There shall be a way to do that
12:47:30 [zlatinski]
CL: To support 3 x 3 we also have to normalize it, because how are we going to do calculation of 2 x 3 with 3 x 3
12:53:34 [zlatinski]
AE: Are you satisfied with the conclusion
12:53:34 [zlatinski]
AG: Not sure if 3 x3 would be OK yet
12:53:34 [zlatinski]
AG: I was also looking at the reflection filter - angle and scale offset do a similar effect.
12:54:47 [zlatinski]
ED: I think it is possible to do that.
12:55:28 [shepazu]
DS: I'd like to do a flip keyword
12:56:35 [zlatinski]
CL: TO add more staff to animate transforms - like scale, flip, around arbitrary point and to add extra filter to take optional transform ….
12:56:40 [zlatinski]
...
12:57:10 [shepazu]
... a vector filter that uses those transform keywords
12:57:48 [zlatinski]
CL: I would want to also use % in rotate and in relation to what
13:01:18 [zlatinski]
topic: Close 3x3 4x4 matrix topic
13:03:00 [MikeSmith]
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13:12:01 [anthony]
s/staff/stuff/
13:15:46 [aemmons]
Scribe: aemmons
13:15:52 [aemmons]
Topic: CSS and SVG
13:16:01 [ed]
...and xsl
13:16:06 [aemmons]
DS: Change in members, chairs, would like to make sure we are on the same page
13:16:15 [aemmons]
...work together on the same page
13:16:27 [aemmons]
...Apple has interesting proposals for CSS
13:16:45 [aemmons]
...would like to work with CSS in incorporating these
13:17:15 [aemmons]
...most of our presentation properties are CSS properties
13:17:24 [aemmons]
ED: Technically not in the CSS spec
13:17:53 [aemmons]
DS: Any transforms, etc should also talk to whoever is specifying Canvas
13:17:59 [aemmons]
DS: we both have transforms
13:18:12 [aemmons]
DS: XSL as well
13:18:42 [aemmons]
AG: We've always had a good working relationship with XSL
13:19:04 [aemmons]
DS: And want the same for CSS, etc
13:19:37 [aemmons]
DS: Webfonts a good start to coordinate with them
13:20:14 [aemmons]
DS: Chris has talked with chairs, - a way forward is a joint task force
13:21:17 [aemmons]
DS: We need to schedule a time with them during the Tpac for a meeting
13:21:42 [aemmons]
Action: Erik to setup a time to meet CSS during TPac
13:21:43 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2043 - Setup a time to meet CSS during TPac [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
13:23:12 [aemmons]
DS: As I understand it is not a high priority for them to do transform enhancements but is a good chance for us to move the web forward
13:36:32 [jdaggett_]
jdaggett_ has joined #svg
13:44:25 [shepazu]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/
13:45:55 [shepazu]
cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG
13:48:29 [ed]
macbookED:~/w3.org ed2$ cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG
13:48:29 [ed]
Permission denied (publickey).
13:48:29 [ed]
cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
13:54:18 [shepazu]
cvs -d username@dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG
14:03:47 [ed]
ed has joined #svg
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shepazu has joined #svg
14:04:28 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
14:05:36 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
14:05:51 [ed__]
ed__ has joined #svg
14:12:52 [zlatinski]
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/tor/archives/2007/03/svg_priorities_in_firefox_3.html
14:58:22 [ed]
ed has joined #svg
14:58:51 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
14:59:04 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #svg
15:05:01 [shepazu]
http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/svgopen2007-paper/index.html
15:05:08 [shepazu]
Cameron's Layout stuff
15:09:26 [aemmons]
Topic: Demos!
15:09:51 [aemmons]
Topic: BitFlash/Samsung Layers
15:20:11 [aemmons]
Demos layers in SVG using a 'layeredG' element, with level attribute that indicates draw order that can be animated, etc
15:27:46 [aemmons]
general discussion between structured approach or flat approach. Drawbacks and benifits to both.
15:28:10 [aemmons]
rename layeredG to layers and level attribute to layer
15:28:51 [aemmons]
perhaps own 1.2 module, layers
15:29:04 [aemmons]
Topic: BitFlash/Samsung SCXML
15:38:48 [aemmons]
Demonstrated SCXML and SVG working together for complex state machines with no scripting
15:39:27 [aemmons]
Mostly adds SMIL events for state entry, exit, change
15:39:36 [aemmons]
Very useful for UI
15:47:01 [Zakim]
anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time to go homo
15:50:26 [anthony]
zakim, remind me in 2 hours to be awesome
15:50:26 [Zakim]
ok, anthony
15:58:41 [ChrisL]
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15:59:00 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview
16:11:34 [ChrisL]
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16:11:36 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/resources/http_php.txt
16:46:08 [ed]
rrs-agent, make minutes
16:46:24 [shepazu]
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16:46:39 [ed]
zakim, bye
16:46:39 [Zakim]
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16:46:44 [ed]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:46:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html ed
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17:50:27 [Zakim]
anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time to be awesome
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