07:14:52 RRSAgent has joined #svg 07:14:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-irc 07:14:54 zlatinski has joined #svg 07:14:54 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:14:54 Zakim has joined #svg 07:14:56 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 07:14:56 ok, trackbot-ng; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start 44 minutes ago 07:14:57 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 07:14:57 Date: 22 May 2008 07:15:07 scribe: erik 07:15:12 scribeNick: ed 07:15:15 chair: AE 07:15:25 Topic: 1.2 testsuite cont. 07:15:49 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/struct-use-205-t.svg 07:16:44 (WG) approved 07:16:56 AE: need to generate a reference image 07:17:25 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228t-svg 07:17:34 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228-t.svg 07:19:54 ChrisL has joined #svg 07:20:18 struct-use-205-t is tentatively approved, opera generates the correct result, will be used for the reference image 07:20:51 we will revisit the issue of how reference images are generated 07:21:41 ...since the revision changes we have to generate a new reference image after actually approving the test 07:22:31 AE: need to change the description on udom-svg-228 07:23:01 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-textcontent-201-t.svg 07:24:45 ED: has no pass criteria in description 07:25:19 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-227-t.svg 07:26:06 ED: should only check the lower bound of the getCurrentTime 07:26:51 ...since the resolution of the documettime isn't defined in spec 07:28:10 (WG) ok, approved after those changes 07:31:01 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/animate-elem-227-t.svg 07:34:27 (WG) approved 07:35:16 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-235-t.svg 07:36:20 AE: using e.name, e.message 07:37:34 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/TraitAccess.common.es is also using e.name and e.message 07:37:46 AG: the test is using id instead of xml:id 07:40:03 (WG) approved 07:41:21 heycam has joined #svg 07:41:47 hi cam 07:41:53 hi ChrisL 07:41:53 we are doing test approvals 07:42:01 rrsagent, here 07:42:01 See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-irc#T07-42-01 07:42:02 cool, i saw yesterday's irc log 07:42:19 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228-t.svg 07:45:29 (WG) approved 07:45:42 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/intro-compat-201-t.svg 07:47:18 ED: the pass criteria are missing 07:50:21 (WG) approved 07:50:51 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-233-t.svg 07:51:45 itaccess-* 07:52:05 AE: e.name, e.message 07:53:04 (WG) approved 07:53:16 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-glob-204-t.svg 07:54:46 ED: add note about security exceptions (local -> external domain) and running the servlet locally 07:57:35 ED: why is this script using addEventListener("load", onload...? if it reaches this point it's already run all the code in the script element 07:58:04 AE: ok, changed 07:58:21 (WG) approved 07:58:52 ED: there was a test like this one yesterday, should be fixed in the same manner 07:59:03 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/animate-elem-219-t.svg 08:00:43 CL: some strange wording in the description 08:05:55 (WG) approved 08:06:06 ED: opera passes this, should be used for reference 08:06:38 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-textcontent-201-t.svg 08:12:51 (WG) approve 08:13:20 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-202-t.svg 08:14:02 CL: should mark output in green and red 08:15:32 ACTION: AE to update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status 08:15:37 Created ACTION-2029 - Update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-29]. 08:16:44 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg 08:18:32 ED: it's assuming getTrait("fill") doesn't normalize the color value, but that's not guaranteed 08:20:20 ...would like this test to get some more review 08:21:57 ACTION: ED to review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test 08:21:58 Created ACTION-2030 - Review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-29]. 08:22:16 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-201-t.svg 08:22:45 AG: id instead of xml:id 08:23:11 CL: needs change in operatorscript 08:24:15 ED: text isn't colored 08:24:56 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/text-edit-201-t.svg 08:27:25 (WG) tentatively approved, pending reference image from opera 08:27:35 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/styling-inherit-03-t.svg 08:28:59 (WG) approved 08:29:13 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/styling-pres-01-t.svg 08:33:17 (WG) approved 08:36:21 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-202-t.svg 08:38:21 CL: not wellformed 08:38:29 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-201-t.svg 08:38:52 (WG) approved 08:39:27 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-202-t.svg 08:45:17 ED: the spec needs to be clarified on how many parameters each path command has, and how close is normalized 08:46:12 (WG) approved, but the spec needs to be updated 08:48:37 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-201-t.svg 08:49:01 ED: so this is assuming QUAD_TO isn't normalized to CURVE_TO, but the spec says you must do that 08:49:37 452 of 574 tests are now approved 08:50:08 (WG) revoke approval of udom-svgpath-201 08:54:29 (WG) revoke approval of udom-svgpath-202 08:54:37 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-202-t.svg 08:55:51 (WG) approved 08:56:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invertible_matrix 08:58:14 CL: SVG_MATRIX_NOT_INVERTABLE is what it says in spec, but it's really a typo 08:58:30 ...can't change it now, since it was in 1.1 as well, but we should make a note of it 09:00:00 s/it was/the constant is used/ 09:17:25 after a cvs update .... 464 of 574 tests are approved 09:20:27 scribeNick: shepazu 09:20:35 chair: Erik 09:20:50 Topic: Progress Events 09:20:51 http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-progress-events-20071023 09:21:30 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-progress-events-20080521/ 09:25:45 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-progress-events-20080521/#Change 09:26:38 MikeSmith has joined #svg 09:27:12 aemmons: progressEvents is referenced by JSR-287 09:27:24 ... but not in the SVG namespace 09:31:15 ed: one difference it that it doesn't bubble in the WebAPI spec 09:31:25 shepazu: do we need that? 09:32:09 ... I can think of a use case... if you have a group with a lot of resources, you might want to put the listener on that group and see which resources resolve... 09:32:21 ... we can bring that up to WebAPI 09:33:31 ed: maybe we could remove this from SVG 1.2 Tiny 09:34:08 aemmons: I'd be concerned about other specs that reference us... they rely on this 09:35:18 aemmons: if the ProgressEvents spec become stable we could make a later revision of SVG that normatively references it 09:37:36 first version is here http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-progress-events-20070419/ 09:38:18 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.2 09:41:07 ChrisL: there are some incompatibilities, especially regarding event names 09:46:00 ed: I'm not sure there are serious incompatibilities... as long as the interface remains the same, we can map our names to theirs 09:47:25 Zakim has left #svg 09:47:53 Zakim has joined #svg 09:48:10 zakim, remind me in 7 hours to go home 09:48:10 ok, ChrisL 09:50:41 aemmons: it looks like ProgressEvents is a superset of our interface, modulo the event names, which is good 09:51:29 Resolution: SVG 1.2 Tiny will keep its progress events, but we will monitor the ProgressEvents spec and encourage compatibility, with the intent to normatively reference it in a later SVG spec 09:53:59 aemmons: so we need test for our progress events 11:02:28 MikeSmith has joined #svg 11:37:45 scribenick: zlatinski 11:38:55 Topic: Interest Group 11:39:22 kEED> Interest group is the starting topic 11:40:48 DS: SVG IG started from 2 sources 11:41:16 1) long-standing desire to get more designers involved in SVG WG 11:42:54 (note: the CSS WG tried this, not very successfully... it backfired when the designers were assumed to be comfortable with the spec-producing process, and got frustrated... it came out as negative PR in their blogs) 11:43:54 2) a conversation with MikeSmith about getting Japanese members more involved by allowing them to communicate in their native language and cultural environment 11:43:54 SVG IG home http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/ 11:44:00 charter http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-IG-charter.html 11:44:14 participants http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42368 11:44:31 patent policy status http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42368/status 11:45:07 DS> the current Micron thinking is to use the current community of helping with testing, or similar or leverage the community to get better results. 11:45:45 s/DS>/DS:/ 11:45:55 s/kEED>/ED:/ 11:46:18 CL: I've sent some links on that topic 11:46:22 We need to figure out a chair, then get wider involvement 11:47:25 AE: We need to brainstormed 11:47:33 ED: Some people are frustrated of not working on SVG full 11:48:35 s/of not working on SVG full/of the apparent lack of progress on SVG 1.2 full/ 11:49:32 I promoted the SVG IG at LGM3 (my slides: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2008/LGM3/cover.svg ) 11:49:38 AE: Can somebody write a white paper of the relationship of the different SVG standards? 11:50:20 DS: We need to assign somebody to do that, otherwise it would not happen 11:51:24 AE: Something like SVG tiny and SVG full is superset of it and also different modules 11:53:01 anthony has joined #svg 11:53:03 Good to talk with some designers who are using SVG now, get them to interview us to get the speaking points, then design a flyer that makes that communication 11:53:06 scribe: anthony 11:53:47 ED: Should we assign someone to reach out 12:01:10 AE: We need to get designers who use Inkscape and authoring tools to join the IG 12:01:33 DS: Yes we also need to get people who are designers that aren't using SVG 12:01:52 ... we need their input to find out what would make it more persuasive to use 12:02:11 AE: We need to get at the SVG experts who are currently making SVG services on the IG as well 12:04:21 DS: We need to make SVG such that they don't care its SVG until they start associating it with cool graphical features 12:04:40 CL: Some people are using SVG for its openess 12:05:49 in particular for interchange between authoring tools 12:06:20 TZ: You could make it more known graphical designers for example if they knew that browsers displayed 12:07:27 ... as soon as they start caring that whatever they do doesn't work on their platform they will start finding tools that do 12:08:36 DS: Maybe we can sell the idea that you can get the source of the SVG and change it to make it how they like and repost 12:14:49 http://www.codedread.com/ adds the renesis plugin to the support matrix 12:15:28 http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php 12:20:51 ACTION: Doug to approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG 12:20:52 Created ACTION-2031 - Approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29]. 12:23:27 ACTION: DS to find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG 12:23:27 Created ACTION-2032 - Find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29]. 12:26:34 patent policy says "This group does not produce deliverables that are covered by the W3C Patent Policy and therefore have no licensing obligations related to the deliverables they produce. " 12:26:41 From the IG charter: "The SVG Interest Group provides an opportunity to share perspectives on the topic addressed by this charter. W3C reminds Interest Group participants of their obligation to comply with patent disclosure obligations as set out in Section 6 of the W3C Patent Policy. While the Interest Group does not produce Recommendation-track documents, when Interest Group participants review Recommendation-track specifications from Working Groups, the patent 12:27:12 Thus, contributions to the IG would need an RF license from the authors same as for a submission) 12:27:25 above truncated quote from http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-IG-charter.html 12:27:33 ed has joined #svg 12:28:40 CL: We need to make all the patent stuff obvious on the IF Wiki and front page 12:28:47 s/CL:/DS:/ 12:28:56 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/ 12:29:08 s/CL: /DS: / 12:29:10 s/IF Wiki/IG Wiki/ 12:31:03 CL: If they are employed by a member company, they are nominated by their AC rep 12:31:32 ... if they are not part of a member company then we go through invited expert root 12:38:40 DS: We need to have some easy we to have someone join the interest group 12:39:52 ACTION: Doug to Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join 12:39:52 Created ACTION-2033 - Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29]. 12:42:04 invited expert approval http://www.w3.org/2004/08/invexp.html 13:10:59 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html 13:11:14 Topic: SVG in HTML 13:11:40 DS: I wondered why in my absence this page was edited 13:11:56 AE: So we had discussed finalised requirements before coming to the F2F 13:12:06 ... those changes I did were from the telcons we had 13:12:15 ... it's not set in stone 13:12:31 DS: I disagree with removing where the requirements were coming from 13:12:38 ... some of these requirements conflict 13:12:48 AE: I don't agree with that 13:13:03 CL: So the previous page had details of where things where coming from 13:13:15 ... it's useful information to retrain 13:13:25 ED: So you can go back in the history and readd it 13:13:40 CL: Get the previous revision and paste it up the top 13:14:16 AE: Our intention was to have unified requirements that didn't conflict 13:26:03 CL: Maceij makes a point in his email that the SVG in XHTML already works 13:26:05 ...I think this should be style that is encouraged for SVG in HTML otherwise authors will get confused. 13:32:45 ... XHTML should be the format encouraged to use 13:33:11 ... because it's known to work today - proven deployment format for CDF 13:38:55 AE: Doug what is your preference to approach the problem? 13:39:08 ... do we want to hand it off to an XML parser or do we want to define a parsing 13:40:41 s/define a parsing/define a parsing model that works in HTML/ 13:40:45 DS: Neither the extension element or bare root element doesn't require one of those. That problem is different to the parsing problem 13:41:19 ... So I'm not an implementor but the implements have been represented as saying they do not want to switch parsers in the middle of parsing 13:41:49 ... not sure how legitimate that is, I've heard reports from different people 13:43:58 ED: I guess that was Opera's statement 13:44:10 ... the developer I spoke to at Opera was more in favor of using an XML parser 13:44:19 ... because it's already implemented 13:44:29 ... saves time and energy in testing 13:44:55 AE: I 100% agree 13:45:06 ... sending the XML portion to the XML parser is the natural thing to do 13:47:01 AE: The argument that it breaks streaming parers is invalid, we've been able to stream and send to other persers fine. 13:47:14 s/persers/parsers/ 13:47:25 DS: [presents example] 13:47:28 s/parers/parsers/ 13:47:32 DS: What do you do? 13:47:41 ... at what point do you chunk it out and send it to another parser? 13:47:46 ... after parsing the ext element 13:47:50 ...? 13:47:54 ... where does it end?/ 13:48:14 AE: So do we need a little bit of information about their parser 13:48:44 ... but I don't know how the parsing model works I've never looked at it 13:49:02 ED: you can define parsing modes for particular element names 13:49:07 ... and that's what they proposed 13:49:17 ... they added a special parsing state for SVG and MathML 13:49:27 ... and flags for switching between the states 13:50:21 AE: One simplistic way of doing it is parsing it the way of the HTML model and then you send it to the XML 13:50:32 DS: No wait that's not the end of the ext element 13:50:37 ... so this is my point 13:51:01 ... when we have content that is not well formed their argument is the strongest 13:51:15 ... when content is well formed SVG doesn't have a problem 13:53:19 [Brain storming about the problem] 14:03:10 AE: Even though the HTML parser is going to parse the SVG it's going to parse unquoted attributes etc and that's what we don't want 14:03:27 TZ: Mozilla uses a 3 phase approach for parsing 14:04:40 ... so when they see something that is HTML they use HTML parser and when there i something they don't recognise they switch to XHTML 14:04:56 ED: That's something similar I was discussing with people in Opera 14:06:09 TZ: Mozilla uses expat with a patch to parse HTML 14:06:40 ... the 2nd phase is creating the nodes 14:07:07 ... the 3rd phase is doing the reflow 14:07:29 ... they push chunks to the reflow 14:07:45 ... then after the reflow they start drawing 14:15:18 ...if the parser doesn't recognise that unformed element we get an element error 14:15:28 ... if we don't recognise the namespace you keep it in the DOM 14:15:46 ...but just don't know how to handle it 14:16:30 DS: So it puts it in the DOM but don't do anything with it 14:16:42 ... would it kickback to HTML? 14:16:58 TZ: this content provider will tell you what nodes you allow 14:17:06 ... or don't allow 14:17:15 ... as soon as you encounter an SVG element you start using something like an XML parser 14:17:20 ... so you keep parsing until you encounter something that you don't understand 14:17:31 ... so you go back to the invoker and say you are at an element condition what to do. The content provider may say 14:17:38 ... if I break here the everything breaks, so you may want to find the last closing string 14:18:02 DS: So saying parsing something off to the XML parser is not helpful we'll just get mocked 14:21:31 TZ: So there is a draw back, the host language needs to pass down information to tell you where to render at. In SVG you know the dimensions. 14:21:49 ED: In XTML it’s the same. You can use CSS to define the width and the height 14:21:57 ... You can also use the containing element thing using a div, choose different block nodes 14:22:03 ... So that’s the box model that’s used. 14:22:14 TZ: Need some guidelines 14:22:23 ED: So HTML 5 would have to write something about the problem 14:22:40 ... I don't see how it's different from XHTML 14:22:52 DS: This area we can all explore with out much pain 14:23:02 ... we that problem is the parsing model 14:24:14 ... we all agree that the negotiation needs be defined 14:24:24 ... the first problem is defining the parsing model 14:28:18 ACTION: latinski to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model 14:28:18 Sorry, couldn't find user - latinski 14:28:49 Zakim, who do you know? 14:28:49 I don't understand your question, shepazu. 14:29:35 ACTION: antanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model 14:29:35 Sorry, couldn't find user - antanas 14:29:44 ACTION: atanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model 14:29:44 Created ACTION-2034 - Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [on Atanas (Tony) Zlatinski - due 2008-05-29]. 14:36:19 DS: We need to draw up some error cases we need to handle 14:36:55 ED: So this example on the right so encountering the unknown element in the middle 14:36:58 ... what happens? 14:37:11 ... does it switch back? 14:38:24 TZ: As soon as you switch back to the content provider the content provider takes over 14:38:36 ... until it reaches a known token 14:42:05 ACTION: Doug to draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML 14:42:05 Created ACTION-2035 - Draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29]. 14:50:45 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Ext_element 14:51:04 this is my proposal 14:51:34 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Ext_element#Fallback_Behavior 15:27:34 Topic: XHTML role 15:27:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0068.html 15:28:03 AE: So these are comments they sent back to us? 15:28:19 ED: So they are asking if this resolves our comments 15:28:25 ... and I'm not sure it has 15:28:59 ... so for example they are saying they don't have a RelaxNG schema 15:29:24 ... and they are kind of writing that they will do it eventually 15:31:13 AE: So you asked them for the second point there to add some attributes 15:31:27 ... to help align pros in SVG 15:32:28 s/pros/prose/ 15:34:33 CL: What I suggest is we prepare response that has a RelaxNG 15:35:25 ... and tell them that it doesn't require as much infrastructure as DTDs etc 15:36:30 http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ 15:36:51 CL: What's this XHML vocab document? 15:37:27 ... once we define some we should ask them how to get them in the document? 15:38:16 ok thanks for the link 15:38:35 it says its for all vocabularies that use xhtml mod (like SVG 1.1 for example) 15:39:41 ED: So according to this if we have to specify the roles ourself they would have to be prefixed with a qualifier 15:40:23 ... Judging by that it would be favorable to have them in this document [link above] 15:40:34 ... I guess we are still not clear which roles we want to have 15:40:45 CL: That would be another thing we could hand off to an IG 15:40:56 ... we could define a bunch of roles to do with maps for example 15:41:00 ... and same for charts 15:41:06 ... they are the two big things 15:41:11 DS: Diagrams 15:41:25 CL: By charts I mean graphs 15:41:44 DS: Subway maps, flow charts, that class of thing 15:41:54 CL: We can share some in common 15:42:04 ... have a call out box saying that this means that 15:42:13 DS: A legend would be common to a map and a chart 15:43:45 ACTION: Chris to Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email 15:43:45 Created ACTION-2036 - Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-05-29]. 15:45:36 DS: How would you guys would prefer to add role to SVG 15:45:46 ... as an attribute 15:47:04 AE: Would that add a dependency to 1.2/ 15:49:05 DS: It says that we can reference it in our name space 15:49:11 CL: That's probably the best way forward 15:49:37 DS: I agree with you that we should put it in our own module 15:49:49 ... because along with it we define a list of roles to do 15:49:52 ... and how they work 15:49:57 ... and incorporate the aria stuff 15:50:03 CL: There are various ways to combine that 15:50:30 ... so the reason we want it there is so it's unprefixed 15:50:49 DS: We wouldn't have to prefix it because it's part of our language 15:51:07 AE: Kind of makes sense to define our own module with our roles defined 15:52:39 Resolution: We will make a module that incorporates the role attribute and work with Wai Aria as well as other domain experts to define a set of roles in our module 16:10:30 http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42368/instructions 16:32:37 zakim, bye 16:32:37 Zakim has left #svg 16:32:53 rrsagent, make minutes 16:32:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html anthony 16:48:11 ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home 17:52:00 zlatinski has joined #svg