13:43:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:43:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc
13:43:34 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:43:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:43:36 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:43:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
13:43:37 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:43:37 <trackbot-ng> Date: 22 May 2008
13:43:38 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008May/0027.html
13:43:41 <dom> Chair: Jo
13:43:51 <jeffs> zakim, agenda?
13:43:51 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
13:54:12 <jo> jo has joined #bpwg
13:56:48 <yeliz> yeliz has joined #bpwg
13:58:15 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started
13:58:21 <Zakim> +jeffs
13:59:05 <jo> zakim, code?
13:59:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
13:59:37 <Zakim> +francois
13:59:49 <Zakim> +jo
14:00:13 <Scott> Scott has joined #bpwg
14:00:46 <Zakim> +Dom
14:00:50 <aconnors> aconnors has joined #bpwg
14:01:12 <jeffs> zakiim, mute me
14:01:18 <jeffs> zakim, mute me
14:01:18 <Zakim> jeffs should now be muted
14:01:21 <francois> Regrets: MartinJ, Murari, AlanTai, rob, nacho, PhilA, kemp, Pontus, AlanC
14:01:50 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
14:01:59 <Zakim> +Adam
14:02:07 <dom> ack me
14:02:12 <Zakim> + +0774762aaaa
14:02:13 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
14:02:14 <francois> Regrets+ Kai, Abel
14:02:32 <dom> [my regrets for next week, while I'm at it :/]
14:02:41 <aconnors> aconnors has joined #bpwg
14:03:10 <jo> zakim, aaaa is Scott
14:03:10 <Zakim> +Scott; got it
14:03:20 <aconnors> aconnors has joined #bpwg
14:04:03 <francois> Scribe: jeffs
14:04:07 <francois> ScribeNick: jeffs
14:04:11 <Zakim> +??P15
14:04:23 <yeliz> zakim, ?P15 is yeliz
14:04:23 <Zakim> sorry, yeliz, I do not recognize a party named '?P15'
14:04:34 <yeliz> zakim, P15 is yeliz
14:04:34 <Zakim> sorry, yeliz, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
14:04:41 <jo> zakim, ??P15 is yeliz
14:04:41 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
14:04:53 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
14:04:53 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:05:06 <francois> Regrets+ EdM
14:05:32 <yeliz> :)
14:06:20 <jeffs> discussion of face-to-face meeting upcoming
14:06:26 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/ Registration for F2F meeting in Sophia
14:06:40 <jo> i/discussion/Topic: F2F Registration
14:06:41 <jeffs> reminder to reply to the questionairre ASAP
14:06:42 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/results Responses to the Registration, 24 answers
14:06:50 <dom> (14 persons)
14:07:14 <jeffs> Topic: F2F Registration
14:08:08 <jeffs> jo: chair for next meeting needed... francois?
14:08:21 <jeffs> francois: agrees to chair next mtg
14:08:47 <jeffs> Topic: Use of ISSUE tracker
14:09:16 <jeffs> jo: reminding folks anybody can raise an issue, and this is probably the best way to do so
14:09:38 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/new Raise an Issue
14:09:43 <manrique> manrique has joined #bpwg
14:10:19 <jeffs> Topic: Task Force 
14:10:25 <jeffs> Topic: Task Force Reports
14:10:58 <jeffs> francois: report no real progress 
14:11:14 <jeffs> francois: will send summary of discussion to clarify 
14:11:48 <jeffs> jo: how many topics still open?
14:12:16 <jeffs> francois: thinks just 1 or 2 issues left to close out
14:13:42 <jeffs> jo: new draft of Pro
14:13:50 <jeffs> jo: please read
14:14:16 <jeffs> jo: should have new draft of accessibility next week
14:14:30 <jeffs> jo: MobileOK algprithms
14:14:52 <jeffs> algprithms/algorithms
14:15:20 <jeffs> francois: as far as can tell is mostly okay now
14:16:18 <jeffs> francois: objects w/o any type attributes now part of testing
14:16:31 <Zakim> +??P21
14:17:25 <miguel> miguel has joined #bpwg
14:17:35 <Zakim> + +98439aabb
14:17:59 <jeffs> francois: example problem... primary image not MobileOK, fallback is okay, doc should test out okay
14:18:08 <miguel> Zakim, +98439aabb is me
14:18:08 <Zakim> +miguel; got it
14:18:09 <manrique> P21 should be me
14:18:18 <dom> zakim, ??21 is manrique
14:18:18 <Zakim> sorry, dom, I do not recognize a party named '??21'
14:18:21 <dom> zakim, ??P21 is manrique
14:18:21 <Zakim> +manrique; got it
14:18:28 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008May/0018.html Problem with Included resource and CONTENT_FORMAT
14:18:44 <jeffs> jo: probably relatively easy to fix by tidying up definitions
14:18:48 <jeffs> francois: agrees
14:19:24 <jeffs> jo: will redraft
14:19:44 <jo> ACTION: jo to redraft definition of Included resources according to the points noted by Francois
14:19:44 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-761 - Redraft definition of Included resources according to the points noted by Francois [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-05-29].
14:20:22 <jeffs> jo: any thoughts about discrepancies? may need to raise new issue(s)
14:20:25 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
14:20:57 <jo> s/may need to raise new issue(s)/was the original reason for raising the ISSUE/
14:20:59 <dom> +1 on the current algorithm being correct
14:21:17 <jeffs> jo: concerned to make sure we get this right this time
14:21:28 <Zakim> +SeanP
14:22:05 <jeffs> Topic: MobileOK License (cf. ISSUE-250)
14:22:08 <dom> ack me
14:22:14 <dom> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008May/0043.html
14:22:28 <jeffs> dom: discusses license
14:22:37 <dom> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-mobileok-policy.html
14:24:08 <dom> current discussion: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/250
14:24:11 <jeffs> jo: not sure if this should go to offline conversation
14:24:45 <jeffs> dom: need to separate legal issue(s) from actual quality control issues
14:25:01 <dom> s/quality control/policy or technical/
14:25:22 <chaals> chaals has joined #bpwg
14:25:30 <jeffs> jo: agrees
14:26:06 <Zakim> +??P25
14:26:13 <jeffs> jo: what about where someone puts on page not really qualified? tech issue or policy issue or...?
14:26:28 <jeffs> dom: both tech and legal issues involved
14:27:10 <jeffs> dom: lists what it takes to put MobileOK on page
14:27:49 <jeffs> jo: discussion of how to write this up in simple fashion
14:28:23 <dom> zakim, ??P25 is chaals
14:28:23 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
14:28:51 <jeffs> jo: thinks discussion is really about legal issues and under ISSUE 250
14:28:56 <chaals> chaals has joined #bpwg
14:29:05 <jeffs> jo: which do we need to resolve as technical issues, and wish not?
14:29:42 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html chaals
14:29:44 <jo> ACTION: Charles to review ISSUE-250 with a view to how this affects content of mobileOK scheme
14:29:44 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-762 - Review ISSUE-250 with a view to how this affects content of mobileOK scheme [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2008-05-29].
14:30:04 <jeffs> dom: more on license
14:30:13 <chaals> rrsagent, make log member
14:30:49 <jeffs> dom: current thinking: pass tests, get badge... discussion?
14:31:07 <jeffs> jo: cannot imagine rush of products into this space
14:31:29 <jeffs> jo: progress on this is good
14:31:34 <chaals> q+
14:31:40 <jeffs> Topic: BP-2 
14:32:42 <jeffs> jo: asks adam to talk about scope
14:33:28 <jeffs> adam: questions being discussed... what is a web application? bring in widget containers? redrafted scope section and sent out
14:33:53 <jeffs> adam: wants conclusion on in/out of scope for widget containers
14:34:05 <jeffs> jo: can we accomplish this today?
14:34:28 <jeffs> adam: wants to de-scope issue and simplify discussion
14:34:46 <jeffs> adam: how can we include BP in that area
14:34:49 <jo> q?
14:34:54 <francois> ack chaals 
14:34:54 <jo> ack 
14:34:55 <jeffs> jo: asks Bryan for comments
14:35:00 <dom> zakim, who's muted
14:35:00 <Zakim> dom, you need to end that query with '?'
14:35:01 <dom> zakim, who's muted?
14:35:01 <Zakim> I see jeffs, Dom, Scott, Bryan_Sullivan, yeliz muted
14:35:07 <dom> zakim, unmute Bryan
14:35:07 <Zakim> Bryan_Sullivan should no longer be muted
14:35:44 <jeffs> bryan: says sig stds activities and products out there 
14:36:05 <jeffs> bryan: we will lose our leadership position if we do not address this issue
14:36:14 <jeffs> jo: how to accomplish this best?
14:36:28 <jeffs> jo: asks opinion of chaals
14:37:11 <chaals> CMN: Don't see that these need to be out of scope, but don't think that there is a massive amount there
14:37:40 <jeffs> jo: what is minimum we need to accomplish on this?
14:37:54 <jeffs> jo: asks for resolution text
14:38:42 <jeffs> adam: wants enumeration of what to address for browsers, what for widget containers
14:38:43 <chaals> [think the text would say that widgets should use W3C widget standard, and then meet other requirements of BP/BP2 (since there is a big escape clause in adapting to your host]
14:39:44 <jeffs> bryan: talks about multithreading browser environments and similarity of issues w what happens w widgets
14:40:11 <jeffs> bryan: took out characteristics list
14:40:27 <jeffs> bryan: issues developers face is equivalent
14:40:55 <jeffs> adam: did not like list, not sure what it added in terms of clarity
14:41:21 <jeffs> adam: agrees w bryan that much of this also appies to widget containers
14:42:12 <jeffs> bryan: doesn't want to discourage people reading this who are developing for non-browser environments
14:42:46 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Widgets are in scope of BP2, we will call out specific best practices that only apply to Widgets
14:42:46 <chaalsXO> chaalsXO has joined #bpwg
14:43:30 <jeffs> discussion of how to word this
14:43:31 <chaalsXO> q+ to say widgets are apps
14:44:00 <jo> ack ch
14:44:00 <Zakim> chaalsXO, you wanted to say widgets are apps
14:45:13 <jeffs> adam: say they are in scope and I will rewrite
14:45:52 <chaals> CMN: The only special thing about widgets is the container format, for management, and I think we will say that certain kinds of application should be available packaged as widgets. For the rest, they are just web applications, and should be treated as such, conforming to BP.
14:46:03 <jeffs> jo: reservation... wants to leave resolution as-is to leave room to work
14:46:31 <jo> ACTION: Adam to reword scope section ref Widgets to clairy and introduce caveats
14:46:31 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-763 - Reword scope section ref Widgets to clairy and introduce caveats [on Adam Connors - due 2008-05-29].
14:47:05 <jeffs> s/clairy/clarify
14:47:06 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Widgets are in scope of BP2, we will call out specific best practices that only apply to Widgets
14:47:18 <aconnors> +1
14:47:23 <jeffs> +1
14:47:24 <jo> +1
14:47:59 <jeffs> RESOLUTION: Widgets are in scope of BP2, we will call out specific best practices that only apply to Widgets
14:48:24 <jeffs> jo: back to family resemblance list
14:48:43 <jeffs> adam: list too wordy and does not add clarity
14:49:01 <jeffs> adam: cut it out entirely
14:49:14 <Bryan> q+
14:49:19 <jeffs> jo: likes list, but point is hard to define things sometimes
14:49:42 <jo> ack bry
14:49:55 <jeffs> bryan: is intent to collapse this list?
14:50:49 <jeffs> bryan: discusses items on list that could be represented
14:51:45 <dom> chaals: I don't think we can make a list that'll match the real world for long enough to make that exercice worth it
14:51:45 <jeffs> chaals: does not think we can make definitive list, and we must work with what we can write
14:52:22 <jo> ack cha
14:52:22 <Zakim> chaalsXO, you wanted to say no
14:52:25 <dom> zakim, who's muted?
14:52:25 <Zakim> I see jeffs, Dom, Scott, yeliz muted
14:52:29 <jeffs> zzakimj, unmute me
14:52:29 <dom> ack jeffs
14:54:17 <Bryan> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080514
14:54:51 <Bryan> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080521
14:55:35 <jeffs> zakim, mute me
14:55:35 <Zakim> jeffs should now be muted
14:56:11 <aconnors> q+, to ask if 1.4.5 is still necessary ?
14:57:00 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We back off from the list of Web Applicaiton charactersistics originally proposed by Jeffs in favour of the less definitve text currently under scope
14:57:27 <jeffs> s/charactersistics/characteristics
14:58:04 <jeffs> RESOLUTION: We back off from the list of Web Applicaiton characteristics originally proposed by Jeffs in favour of the less definitive text currently under scope
14:58:32 <jeffs> s/Applicaiton/Application
14:59:00 <jeffs> jo: thinks removal in favor of brevity good idea
14:59:21 <jo> [agreed to remove 1.4.4 and 1.4.5 in present draft]
14:59:45 <jeffs> bryan: discussion of moving text around and renumbering
15:00:25 <jeffs> bryan: took "requirement" part and put as part of "introduction" to "best practices" section
15:00:56 <jeffs> bryan: focus on tweaking 4.1 - 4.6 to make clearer
15:01:17 <jeffs> bryan: 4.6 incorporates more input
15:01:42 <jeffs> bryan: context- and device-info core of new input
15:02:21 <jeffs> jo: timing means many folks have not had a chance to review draft yet
15:02:42 <jeffs> jo: how close are we to publishing a 1st working draft of this?
15:03:12 <jeffs> bryan: we are close, need to address if structure is meeting needs?
15:03:31 <jeffs> bryan: do we want to put in objectives? or is that just "more words"
15:04:11 <jeffs> adam: likes rearranging, thinks more in-scope, thinks pretty close but wants to re-read end-to-end
15:04:34 <jeffs> adam: do we still need a requirements section?
15:05:13 <jeffs> jo: discussion of document wording
15:05:39 <jeffs> jo: review it over the next 1-2 weeks
15:06:29 <jeffs> jo: how are we going to organize meeting?
15:07:49 <jo> ACTION: Jo to remind DKA that he was going to book a room at Vodafone for the Editorial Meeting
15:07:49 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-764 - Remind DKA that he was going to book a room at Vodafone for the Editorial Meeting [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-05-29].
15:08:07 <jeffs> Topic: any other business
15:08:28 <francois> RRSAgent, make log public
15:08:39 <jeffs> jo: reminder to register for f2f ASAP
15:08:39 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:08:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:08:45 <dom> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/
15:09:00 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/ Registration
15:09:11 <jeffs> jo: closing out meeting
15:09:17 <Zakim> -Dom
15:09:19 <Zakim> -jo
15:09:19 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
15:09:20 <manrique> see you
15:09:20 <Zakim> -yeliz
15:09:21 <Zakim> -Adam
15:09:22 <Zakim> -chaals
15:09:23 <Zakim> -SeanP
15:09:23 <Zakim> -Scott
15:09:24 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:09:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:09:28 <Zakim> -miguel
15:09:30 <Zakim> -francois
15:09:30 <Zakim> -jeffs
15:09:35 <Zakim> -manrique
15:09:36 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:09:37 <Zakim> Attendees were jeffs, francois, jo, Dom, Adam, +0774762aaaa, Bryan_Sullivan, Scott, yeliz, miguel, manrique, SeanP, chaals
15:09:56 <Scott> Scott has left #bpwg
15:14:25 <yeliz> yeliz has left #bpwg
15:15:13 <francois> zakim, who is on the call?
15:15:13 <Zakim> apparently MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended, francois
15:15:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see chaalsXO, chaals, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:15:20 <matt> Present- Matt
15:19:34 <francois> Present: jeffs, francois, jo, dom, adam, Bryan_Sullivan, Scott, yeliz, miguel, manrique, SeanP, chaals
15:19:37 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:19:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:30:31 <chaals> rrsagent, bye
15:30:31 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-actions.rdf :
15:30:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jo to redraft definition of Included resources according to the points noted by Francois [1]
15:30:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T14-19-44
15:30:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Charles to review ISSUE-250 with a view to how this affects content of mobileOK scheme [2]
15:30:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T14-29-44
15:30:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Adam to reword scope section ref Widgets to clairy and introduce caveats [3]
15:30:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T14-46-31
15:30:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jo to remind DKA that he was going to book a room at Vodafone for the Editorial Meeting [4]
15:30:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T15-07-49