IRC log of bpwg on 2008-05-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:43:32 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #bpwg

13:43:32 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc

13:43:34 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:43:34 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #bpwg

13:43:36 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

13:43:36 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes

13:43:37 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

13:43:37 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 22 May 2008

13:43:38 [dom]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008May/0027.html

13:43:41 [dom]

Chair: Jo

13:43:51 [jeffs]

zakim, agenda?

13:43:51 [Zakim]

I see nothing on the agenda

13:54:12 [jo]

jo has joined #bpwg

13:56:48 [yeliz]

yeliz has joined #bpwg

13:58:15 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started

13:58:21 [Zakim]

+jeffs

13:59:05 [jo]

zakim, code?

13:59:05 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

13:59:37 [Zakim]

+francois

13:59:49 [Zakim]

+jo

14:00:13 [Scott]

Scott has joined #bpwg

14:00:46 [Zakim]

+Dom

14:00:50 [aconnors]

aconnors has joined #bpwg

14:01:12 [jeffs]

zakiim, mute me

14:01:18 [jeffs]

zakim, mute me

14:01:18 [Zakim]

jeffs should now be muted

14:01:21 [francois]

Regrets: MartinJ, Murari, AlanTai, rob, nacho, PhilA, kemp, Pontus, AlanC

14:01:50 [Bryan]

Bryan has joined #bpwg

14:01:59 [Zakim]

+Adam

14:02:07 [dom]

ack me

14:02:12 [Zakim]

+ +0774762aaaa

14:02:13 [Zakim]

+Bryan_Sullivan

14:02:14 [francois]

Regrets+ Kai, Abel

14:02:32 [dom]

[my regrets for next week, while I'm at it :/]

14:02:41 [aconnors]

aconnors has joined #bpwg

14:03:10 [jo]

zakim, aaaa is Scott

14:03:10 [Zakim]

+Scott; got it

14:03:20 [aconnors]

aconnors has joined #bpwg

14:04:03 [francois]

Scribe: jeffs

14:04:07 [francois]

ScribeNick: jeffs

14:04:11 [Zakim]

+??P15

14:04:23 [yeliz]

zakim, ?P15 is yeliz

14:04:23 [Zakim]

sorry, yeliz, I do not recognize a party named '?P15'

14:04:34 [yeliz]

zakim, P15 is yeliz

14:04:34 [Zakim]

sorry, yeliz, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'

14:04:41 [jo]

zakim, ??P15 is yeliz

14:04:41 [Zakim]

+yeliz; got it

14:04:53 [yeliz]

zakim, mute yeliz

14:04:53 [Zakim]

yeliz should now be muted

14:05:06 [francois]

Regrets+ EdM

14:05:32 [yeliz]

:)

14:06:20 [jeffs]

discussion of face-to-face meeting upcoming

14:06:26 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/ Registration for F2F meeting in Sophia

14:06:40 [jo]

i/discussion/Topic: F2F Registration

14:06:41 [jeffs]

reminder to reply to the questionairre ASAP

14:06:42 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/results Responses to the Registration, 24 answers

14:06:50 [dom]

(14 persons)

14:07:14 [jeffs]

Topic: F2F Registration

14:08:08 [jeffs]

jo: chair for next meeting needed... francois?

14:08:21 [jeffs]

francois: agrees to chair next mtg

14:08:47 [jeffs]

Topic: Use of ISSUE tracker

14:09:16 [jeffs]

jo: reminding folks anybody can raise an issue, and this is probably the best way to do so

14:09:38 [jo]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/new Raise an Issue

14:09:43 [manrique]

manrique has joined #bpwg

14:10:19 [jeffs]

Topic: Task Force

14:10:25 [jeffs]

Topic: Task Force Reports

14:10:58 [jeffs]

francois: report no real progress

14:11:14 [jeffs]

francois: will send summary of discussion to clarify

14:11:48 [jeffs]

jo: how many topics still open?

14:12:16 [jeffs]

francois: thinks just 1 or 2 issues left to close out

14:13:42 [jeffs]

jo: new draft of Pro

14:13:50 [jeffs]

jo: please read

14:14:16 [jeffs]

jo: should have new draft of accessibility next week

14:14:30 [jeffs]

jo: MobileOK algprithms

14:14:52 [jeffs]

algprithms/algorithms

14:15:20 [jeffs]

francois: as far as can tell is mostly okay now

14:16:18 [jeffs]

francois: objects w/o any type attributes now part of testing

14:16:31 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:17:25 [miguel]

miguel has joined #bpwg

14:17:35 [Zakim]

+ +98439aabb

14:17:59 [jeffs]

francois: example problem... primary image not MobileOK, fallback is okay, doc should test out okay

14:18:08 [miguel]

Zakim, +98439aabb is me

14:18:08 [Zakim]

+miguel; got it

14:18:09 [manrique]

P21 should be me

14:18:21 [dom]

zakim, ??P21 is manrique

14:18:21 [Zakim]

+manrique; got it

14:18:28 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008May/0018.html Problem with Included resource and CONTENT_FORMAT

14:18:44 [jeffs]

jo: probably relatively easy to fix by tidying up definitions

14:18:48 [jeffs]

francois: agrees

14:19:24 [jeffs]

jo: will redraft

14:19:44 [jo]

ACTION: jo to redraft definition of Included resources according to the points noted by Francois

14:19:44 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-761 - Redraft definition of Included resources according to the points noted by Francois [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-05-29].

14:20:22 [jeffs]

jo: any thoughts about discrepancies? may need to raise new issue(s)

14:20:25 [SeanP]

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14:20:57 [jo]

s/may need to raise new issue(s)/was the original reason for raising the ISSUE/

14:20:59 [dom]

+1 on the current algorithm being correct

14:21:17 [jeffs]

jo: concerned to make sure we get this right this time

14:21:28 [Zakim]

+SeanP

14:22:05 [jeffs]

Topic: MobileOK License (cf. ISSUE-250)

14:22:08 [dom]

ack me

14:22:14 [dom]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008May/0043.html

14:22:28 [jeffs]

dom: discusses license

14:22:37 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-mobileok-policy.html

14:24:08 [dom]

current discussion: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/250

14:24:11 [jeffs]

jo: not sure if this should go to offline conversation

14:24:45 [jeffs]

dom: need to separate legal issue(s) from actual quality control issues

14:25:01 [dom]

s/quality control/policy or technical/

14:25:22 [chaals]

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14:25:30 [jeffs]

jo: agrees

14:26:06 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:26:13 [jeffs]

jo: what about where someone puts on page not really qualified? tech issue or policy issue or...?

14:26:28 [jeffs]

dom: both tech and legal issues involved

14:27:10 [jeffs]

dom: lists what it takes to put MobileOK on page

14:27:49 [jeffs]

jo: discussion of how to write this up in simple fashion

14:28:23 [dom]

zakim, ??P25 is chaals

14:28:23 [Zakim]

+chaals; got it

14:28:51 [jeffs]

jo: thinks discussion is really about legal issues and under ISSUE 250

14:28:56 [chaals]

chaals has joined #bpwg

14:29:05 [jeffs]

jo: which do we need to resolve as technical issues, and wish not?

14:29:42 [chaals]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:29:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html chaals

14:29:44 [jo]

ACTION: Charles to review ISSUE-250 with a view to how this affects content of mobileOK scheme

14:29:44 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-762 - Review ISSUE-250 with a view to how this affects content of mobileOK scheme [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2008-05-29].

14:30:04 [jeffs]

dom: more on license

14:30:13 [chaals]

rrsagent, make log member

14:30:49 [jeffs]

dom: current thinking: pass tests, get badge... discussion?

14:31:07 [jeffs]

jo: cannot imagine rush of products into this space

14:31:29 [jeffs]

jo: progress on this is good

14:31:34 [chaals]

q+

14:31:40 [jeffs]

Topic: BP-2

14:32:42 [jeffs]

jo: asks adam to talk about scope

14:33:28 [jeffs]

adam: questions being discussed... what is a web application? bring in widget containers? redrafted scope section and sent out

14:33:53 [jeffs]

adam: wants conclusion on in/out of scope for widget containers

14:34:05 [jeffs]

jo: can we accomplish this today?

14:34:28 [jeffs]

adam: wants to de-scope issue and simplify discussion

14:34:46 [jeffs]

adam: how can we include BP in that area

14:34:49 [jo]

q?

14:34:54 [francois]

ack chaals

14:34:54 [jo]

ack

14:34:55 [jeffs]

jo: asks Bryan for comments

14:35:00 [dom]

zakim, who's muted

14:35:00 [Zakim]

dom, you need to end that query with '?'

14:35:01 [dom]

zakim, who's muted?

14:35:01 [Zakim]

I see jeffs, Dom, Scott, Bryan_Sullivan, yeliz muted

14:35:07 [dom]

zakim, unmute Bryan

14:35:07 [Zakim]

Bryan_Sullivan should no longer be muted

14:35:44 [jeffs]

bryan: says sig stds activities and products out there

14:36:05 [jeffs]

bryan: we will lose our leadership position if we do not address this issue

14:36:14 [jeffs]

jo: how to accomplish this best?

14:36:28 [jeffs]

jo: asks opinion of chaals

14:37:11 [chaals]

CMN: Don't see that these need to be out of scope, but don't think that there is a massive amount there

14:37:40 [jeffs]

jo: what is minimum we need to accomplish on this?

14:37:54 [jeffs]

jo: asks for resolution text

14:38:42 [jeffs]

adam: wants enumeration of what to address for browsers, what for widget containers

14:38:43 [chaals]

[think the text would say that widgets should use W3C widget standard, and then meet other requirements of BP/BP2 (since there is a big escape clause in adapting to your host]

14:39:44 [jeffs]

bryan: talks about multithreading browser environments and similarity of issues w what happens w widgets

14:40:11 [jeffs]

bryan: took out characteristics list

14:40:27 [jeffs]

bryan: issues developers face is equivalent

14:40:55 [jeffs]

adam: did not like list, not sure what it added in terms of clarity

14:41:21 [jeffs]

adam: agrees w bryan that much of this also appies to widget containers

14:42:12 [jeffs]

bryan: doesn't want to discourage people reading this who are developing for non-browser environments

14:42:46 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Widgets are in scope of BP2, we will call out specific best practices that only apply to Widgets

14:42:46 [chaalsXO]

chaalsXO has joined #bpwg

14:43:30 [jeffs]

discussion of how to word this

14:43:31 [chaalsXO]

q+ to say widgets are apps

14:44:00 [jo]

ack ch

14:44:00 [Zakim]

chaalsXO, you wanted to say widgets are apps

14:45:13 [jeffs]

adam: say they are in scope and I will rewrite

14:45:52 [chaals]

CMN: The only special thing about widgets is the container format, for management, and I think we will say that certain kinds of application should be available packaged as widgets. For the rest, they are just web applications, and should be treated as such, conforming to BP.

14:46:03 [jeffs]

jo: reservation... wants to leave resolution as-is to leave room to work

14:46:31 [jo]

ACTION: Adam to reword scope section ref Widgets to clairy and introduce caveats

14:46:31 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-763 - Reword scope section ref Widgets to clairy and introduce caveats [on Adam Connors - due 2008-05-29].

14:47:05 [jeffs]

s/clairy/clarify

14:47:06 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Widgets are in scope of BP2, we will call out specific best practices that only apply to Widgets

14:47:18 [aconnors]

+1

14:47:23 [jeffs]

+1

14:47:24 [jo]

+1

14:47:59 [jeffs]

RESOLUTION: Widgets are in scope of BP2, we will call out specific best practices that only apply to Widgets

14:48:24 [jeffs]

jo: back to family resemblance list

14:48:43 [jeffs]

adam: list too wordy and does not add clarity

14:49:01 [jeffs]

adam: cut it out entirely

14:49:14 [Bryan]

q+

14:49:19 [jeffs]

jo: likes list, but point is hard to define things sometimes

14:49:42 [jo]

ack bry

14:49:55 [jeffs]

bryan: is intent to collapse this list?

14:50:49 [jeffs]

bryan: discusses items on list that could be represented

14:51:45 [dom]

chaals: I don't think we can make a list that'll match the real world for long enough to make that exercice worth it

14:51:45 [jeffs]

chaals: does not think we can make definitive list, and we must work with what we can write

14:52:22 [jo]

ack cha

14:52:22 [Zakim]

chaalsXO, you wanted to say no

14:52:25 [dom]

zakim, who's muted?

14:52:25 [Zakim]

I see jeffs, Dom, Scott, yeliz muted

14:52:29 [jeffs]

zzakimj, unmute me

14:52:29 [dom]

ack jeffs

14:54:17 [Bryan]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080514

14:54:51 [Bryan]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080521

14:55:35 [jeffs]

zakim, mute me

14:55:35 [Zakim]

jeffs should now be muted

14:56:11 [aconnors]

q+, to ask if 1.4.5 is still necessary ?

14:57:00 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We back off from the list of Web Applicaiton charactersistics originally proposed by Jeffs in favour of the less definitve text currently under scope

14:57:27 [jeffs]

s/charactersistics/characteristics

14:58:04 [jeffs]

RESOLUTION: We back off from the list of Web Applicaiton characteristics originally proposed by Jeffs in favour of the less definitive text currently under scope

14:58:32 [jeffs]

s/Applicaiton/Application

14:59:00 [jeffs]

jo: thinks removal in favor of brevity good idea

14:59:21 [jo]

[agreed to remove 1.4.4 and 1.4.5 in present draft]

14:59:45 [jeffs]

bryan: discussion of moving text around and renumbering

15:00:25 [jeffs]

bryan: took "requirement" part and put as part of "introduction" to "best practices" section

15:00:56 [jeffs]

bryan: focus on tweaking 4.1 - 4.6 to make clearer

15:01:17 [jeffs]

bryan: 4.6 incorporates more input

15:01:42 [jeffs]

bryan: context- and device-info core of new input

15:02:21 [jeffs]

jo: timing means many folks have not had a chance to review draft yet

15:02:42 [jeffs]

jo: how close are we to publishing a 1st working draft of this?

15:03:12 [jeffs]

bryan: we are close, need to address if structure is meeting needs?

15:03:31 [jeffs]

bryan: do we want to put in objectives? or is that just "more words"

15:04:11 [jeffs]

adam: likes rearranging, thinks more in-scope, thinks pretty close but wants to re-read end-to-end

15:04:34 [jeffs]

adam: do we still need a requirements section?

15:05:13 [jeffs]

jo: discussion of document wording

15:05:39 [jeffs]

jo: review it over the next 1-2 weeks

15:06:29 [jeffs]

jo: how are we going to organize meeting?

15:07:49 [jo]

ACTION: Jo to remind DKA that he was going to book a room at Vodafone for the Editorial Meeting

15:07:49 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-764 - Remind DKA that he was going to book a room at Vodafone for the Editorial Meeting [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-05-29].

15:08:07 [jeffs]

Topic: any other business

15:08:28 [francois]

RRSAgent, make log public

15:08:39 [jeffs]

jo: reminder to register for f2f ASAP

15:08:39 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:08:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:08:45 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/

15:09:00 [jo]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-F2F-June-2008/ Registration

15:09:11 [jeffs]

jo: closing out meeting

15:09:17 [Zakim]

-Dom

15:09:19 [Zakim]

-jo

15:09:19 [Zakim]

-Bryan_Sullivan

15:09:20 [manrique]

see you

15:09:20 [Zakim]

-yeliz

15:09:21 [Zakim]

-Adam

15:09:22 [Zakim]

-chaals

15:09:23 [Zakim]

-SeanP

15:09:23 [Zakim]

-Scott

15:09:24 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:09:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:09:28 [Zakim]

-miguel

15:09:30 [Zakim]

-francois

15:09:30 [Zakim]

-jeffs

15:09:35 [Zakim]

-manrique

15:09:36 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended

15:09:37 [Zakim]

Attendees were jeffs, francois, jo, Dom, Adam, +0774762aaaa, Bryan_Sullivan, Scott, yeliz, miguel, manrique, SeanP, chaals

15:09:56 [Scott]

Scott has left #bpwg

15:14:25 [yeliz]

yeliz has left #bpwg

15:15:13 [francois]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:15:13 [Zakim]

apparently MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended, francois

15:15:14 [Zakim]

On IRC I see chaalsXO, chaals, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom

15:15:20 [matt]

Present- Matt

15:19:34 [francois]

Present: jeffs, francois, jo, dom, adam, Bryan_Sullivan, Scott, yeliz, miguel, manrique, SeanP, chaals

15:19:37 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:19:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:30:31 [chaals]

rrsagent, bye

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-actions.rdf :

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jo to redraft definition of Included resources according to the points noted by Francois [1]

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T14-19-44

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Charles to review ISSUE-250 with a view to how this affects content of mobileOK scheme [2]

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T14-29-44

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Adam to reword scope section ref Widgets to clairy and introduce caveats [3]

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T14-46-31

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jo to remind DKA that he was going to book a room at Vodafone for the Editorial Meeting [4]

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-bpwg-irc#T15-07-49