14:54:57 RRSAgent has joined #swd 14:54:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc 14:55:01 rrsagent, bookmark 14:55:01 See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T14-55-01 14:55:06 qhreul has joined #swd 14:55:06 zakim, this will be swd 14:55:06 ok, Tom; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:11 Meeting: SWD WG 14:55:13 Chair: Tom 14:55:31 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/0043.html 14:55:52 vit has joined #swd 14:55:55 Regrets: Jon, Simone, Daniel, Ralph, Guus 14:56:09 qhreul, hi! 14:56:13 can you scribe today? 14:56:17 yep 14:56:33 rrsagent, please make record public 14:56:45 scribe: qhreul 14:56:52 scribenick: qhreul 14:59:04 Regrets+ Clay, Elisa 14:59:29 SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started 14:59:36 + +0122427aaaa 14:59:49 zakim, +0122427aaaa is qhreul 14:59:49 +qhreul; got it 15:00:14 +??P17 15:00:27 zakim, ??P17 is Tom 15:00:27 +Tom; got it 15:00:43 berrueta has joined #swd 15:01:20 +??P20 15:01:33 zakim, ??P20 is me 15:01:33 +berrueta; got it 15:01:36 aliman has joined #swd 15:02:04 Antoine has joined #swd 15:02:31 Regrets+ Ed 15:02:40 seanb has joined #swd 15:03:20 +??P32 15:03:32 zakim, ??P32 is Antoine 15:03:32 +Antoine; got it 15:04:53 + +0186528aabb 15:05:11 zakim, aabb is aliman 15:05:11 +aliman; got it 15:05:20 zakim, who is on the call? 15:05:20 On the phone I see qhreul, Tom, berrueta, Antoine, aliman 15:05:27 +??P38 15:05:42 zakim, ??P38 is vit 15:05:42 +vit; got it 15:05:45 +??P40 15:05:52 zakim, ??P40 is me 15:05:52 +seanb; got it 15:05:59 benadida has joined #swd 15:06:10 (apologies, held up on previous call, will join ASAP) 15:07:01 Topic: Admin 15:07:46 RESOVED: to accept minute from Washington f-2-f 15:07:58 RESOLVED: last week minute 15:08:06 Topic: SKOS 15:08:32 Tom put links in the agenda as well as remaining agenda 15:09:21 ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02] 15:09:27 --continues 15:09:34 ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08] 15:09:38 --continues 15:09:45 ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs isDefinedBy fits thereasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10] 15:09:51 --continues 15:09:58 ACTION: alistair and sean to add a note about irreflexivity to Reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action05] 15:10:01 --continues 15:10:08 ACTION: Alistair to check the old namespace wrt dereferencing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03] 15:10:12 --continues 15:10:21 ACTION: Antoine and Ed to add content to Primer about irreflexivity [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06] 15:10:24 --continues 15:10:32 ACTION: Guus and Alistair write text for Reference indicating understanding of a possible need for future patterns for n-Ary label relations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action08] 15:10:33 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/0037.html 15:10:35 --continues 15:10:43 ACTION: Guus and Sean propose some owl:imports text for Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:10:52 --done 15:11:30 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/Imports 15:11:43 ACTION: Ralph compose intermediate pages for http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-spec and http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/ to inform readers of the paths to the old and new SKOS documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action02] 15:11:49 --continues 15:11:57 ACTION: Sean and Alistair to send a file for the namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action04] 15:12:05 marghe has joined #swd 15:12:10 --continues 15:12:18 ACTION: Sean to write a proposal to indicate to OWL WG our requirements for annotation properties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action07] 15:12:27 --continues 15:12:34 ACTION: Clay will respond to Jakob about the resolution for notations and x-notation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/07-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:13:18 +Margherita_Sini 15:13:25 --continues 15:13:46 ACTION: Editors of the Use Cases to clean up the lists of requirements in light of resolutions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/07-swd-minutes.html#action02] 15:13:51 --continues 15:13:59 ACTION: Alistair to close issue 64 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action26] 15:14:06 --done 15:14:15 see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/64 15:14:56 http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action13 15:15:10 Antoine believe the action has been dropped 15:15:19 Sean seconded 15:15:55 It's dropped here: -> http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html 15:16:01 Look at the bottom.... 15:16:53 Tom> minute from 13th May shows that the action had been dropped 15:17:17 http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-irc#T15-38-04 15:17:58 SKOS primer doesn't mention the property 15:18:22 ... but Ralph was keen to have the property 15:18:38 ... Ralph to make suggestion if required 15:19:04 ... but believe that Ralph doesn't have a problem 15:19:25 sean asking for confirmation between use of property in schema vs vocabulary 15:19:36 ACTION: Guus to mail his position on issues 72, 73 and 75 to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action25] 15:19:38 --continues 15:19:46 ACTION: Margherita to send an email on the need to keep symbolic labels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action24] 15:19:59 --done 15:20:13 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/0031.html 15:20:36 Margherita found a property that could cover this 15:21:01 ... different use case require futher infomration such as language and provenance (e.g. location) 15:21:17 s/infomration/information 15:21:40 ... wondering if these type of annotation can be added with current model 15:22:37 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/79 15:22:39 sean resolution for issue 79 15:22:53 ... is that enough for use case needs 15:23:33 Margherita asked if use of the literals, then can the language be added 15:24:13 Alistair say that annotation can also be replaced by skos:prefLabel 15:24:26 Margherita doesn't know how to do this 15:24:43 ... can there be two skos:prefLabel? 15:25:11 ... for example, the concept potassium and then need to add the symbol 15:25:43 Quentin can you not use skos:altLabel 15:26:00 Margherita would like to have the relationship @ the level of the concept 15:26:20 ex:Potassium skos:prefLabel "Potassium"@en; skos:prefLabel "K"@en-x-notation. 15:26:48 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jan/0211.html Jakob's proposal for using prefLabel. 15:26:58 ... i.e. differentiate between chemical symbols and prefLabel or altLabel 15:27:12 "A resource has no more than one value of skos:prefLabel per language" 15:27:46 So we can have multiple prefLabels 15:27:46 Margherita says that in the case of chemical symbols thes could be in the same language 15:28:15 ex:chemicalSymbol rdf:subProperty skos:altLabel 15:29:31 Alistair both are possible patterns 15:29:56 ... prefLabel and altLabel were based on annotating pictures 15:30:11 s/prefLabel/prefSymbol/ 15:30:21 s/altLabel/altSymbol/ 15:30:28 Margherita like creating sub property of altLabel 15:30:52 ... as would be able to create multiple annotation and add language with them 15:31:45 Alistair says that Margherita use case is the main one w.r.t. to annotation 15:32:21 ... why does she want to use annotation 15:32:55 Margherita says that the problem with annotation is that the language tag can not be added to rdf:literals 15:33:48 Alistair says that ref plain literal have lexicl value as weel as additional language tag 15:34:07 s/ref plain/RDF plain/ 15:34:15 ... whereas RDF literal have a lexical value and a URI 15:34:32 s/and a URI/and a datatype URI/ 15:34:46 ... those are the two type of literals in RDF as define in the vocabulary 15:34:50 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/ RDF Concepts 15:35:25 with altLabel and prefLabel we use plain literal compared to annotation which doesn't 15:35:29 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-Literals RDF Concepts on literals 15:35:54 s/annotation which doesn't/skos:notation which uses typed literals/ 15:36:13 ... annotation are closer to datatype literals, but doesn't allow to define the language 15:36:35 aliman: doesn't make sense to have a language tag on a typed literal 15:37:09 ... Brian says that rationale is that it can be define within an XML literal 15:37:19 s/define/defined 15:37:51 Antoine: says that it could be difficult for people to implement 15:38:27 aliman: says that there is no expactation for datatype (and specific to each datatype) 15:38:35 Aliman: datatypes handled outside RDF semantics - notion of lexical-to-value mapping is something specific to each datatype - no necessity that datatype URI link to anything 15:38:48 ... how you link the data to datatype was an issue in previous WG 15:39:09 ...idea that most people would use SKOS notation and coin URI specific to their notation system and if they wanted to go further declare their own datatype 15:39:49 sean: if Margherita use prefLabel then she will use different label with same language to represent both terms and symbols 15:39:58 ex:Potassium skos:prefLabel "Potassium"@en; skos:prefLabel "K"@en-x-symbol. # another way to do it? 15:40:42 marghe: "Potassium" would be the prefLabel, whereas the P would be a chemical label associated to a altLabel 15:41:15 It seems the question is whether a chemical symbol should be considered a "notation". 15:41:20 ... Not sure if there is a need for this to be another prefLabel 15:41:31 # using notations 15:41:32 ex:Potassium 15:41:33 If it is, then our patterns don't quite capture Margherita's requirements 15:41:34 skos:prefLabel "Potassium"@en; 15:41:36 skos:notation "K"^^ . 15:41:54 +Ben_Adida 15:41:55 marghe: is afraid that we might get a lot of different solution to do the same things 15:42:38 Alistair's solution doesn't include the language for the notation 15:42:56 aliman says that skos:notation should normally be used unless you need to say something about the language as well 15:43:17 seanb is there a requirement to have the language included in notation 15:43:34 marghe says it could be happening a lot of times 15:43:38 # duplicating the symbol label 15:43:39 ex:Potassium 15:43:41 skos:prefLabel "Potassium"@en; 15:43:43 skos:prefLabel "K"@en-x-chemicalsymbol 15:43:45 skos:notation "K"^^ . 15:43:54 .. could be for chemical but also for other representation 15:44:05 aliman proposes to use skos:note 15:44:28 seanb says that notation should be across all languages 15:44:47 aliman using example of syrilic language and whether the same notation is used 15:45:02 I think we need to see these examples worked through (not just in the irc :-) 15:45:24 ... under what condition is it a language literal and when it should be a datatype literal 15:45:31 +1 on what seanb said :) 15:46:19 seanb wants to have further example to be extracted and decide different solution for each patterns 15:46:47 -> http://www.jergym.hiedu.cz/~canovm/vyhledav/varianty/russian.html Periodic table in Russian, uses latin symbols! 15:46:48 Tom syas this should be part of the primer on skos/;notation 15:47:08 s/skos/;notation/skos:notation 15:47:31 Tom: marghe to liase with primer author to define several examples 15:48:06 ... i.e. what would make sense to represent with plain literal and some for datatype literals 15:48:18 -> http://www.chem.msu.su/rus/history/element/ another russian language periodic table using latin symbols :) 15:48:47 ACTION: Margherita to liase with author primer about example using plain literals and some with datatype literals 15:48:54 Topic: RDFa 15:49:58 Ben: we have had feedback from WG on the primer 15:50:11 ... suggesting that we are very close to the end 15:50:30 ... prob will take a couple of weeks as still need to work on the syntax 15:50:42 ... currently closing issues at moment 15:51:05 ... currently implementing against the use-case 15:51:26 ... currently a java parser and also a javascript parser 15:51:39 s/a java/have a java 15:52:28 ... all dates in the agenda are within the reach of the task force 15:52:41 ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] 15:52:44 --continues 15:53:37 Ben: if anyone wants to have a look @ the latest draft, the taskforce would be happy about feedback 15:53:44 Topic: Recipe 15:54:18 Tom: the working draft has been reviewed 15:54:27 ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] 15:54:30 --continues 15:54:37 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] 15:54:41 --continues 15:55:01 Sorry, I have to go to another meeting. Thanks all. 15:55:16 -aliman 15:55:35 Diego: pending on work done on W3C web services 15:55:45 ACTION: Jon will correct the PURL references in the recipes and update the files in W3space [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html#action12] 15:55:51 --done 15:56:11 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/0038.html 15:56:19 ACTION: Jon and Diego to publish a new Editor's Draft of the Recipes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action04] 15:56:23 --done 15:56:31 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/0038.html 15:56:38 ACTION: Ralph to review the new Editor's Draft of the Recipes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action06] 15:56:40 --continues 15:56:48 ACTION: Ed to review the new Editor's Draft of the Recipes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action05] 15:56:52 --continues 15:57:00 Topic: Vocabulary Management 15:57:25 Vit: submitted changes to Eliza that Eliza is going to implement 15:57:49 seanb has left #swd 15:57:51 -vit 15:57:54 -Ben_Adida 15:57:55 -berrueta 15:57:55 -Antoine 15:57:56 -Margherita_Sini 15:57:56 marghe has left #swd 15:57:57 -seanb 15:58:08 zakim, please list attendees 15:58:08 As of this point the attendees have been qhreul, Tom, berrueta, Antoine, +0186528aabb, aliman, vit, seanb, Margherita_Sini, Ben_Adida 15:59:10 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:59:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-minutes.html Tom 16:00:45 -qhreul 16:01:22 [adjourned] 16:01:28 zakim, bye 16:01:28 leaving. As of this point the attendees were qhreul, Tom, berrueta, Antoine, +0186528aabb, aliman, vit, seanb, Margherita_Sini, Ben_Adida 16:01:28 Zakim has left #swd 16:01:33 rrsagent, bye 16:01:33 I see 24 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-actions.rdf : 16:01:33 ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02] [1] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-09-21 16:01:33 ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08] [2] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-09-34 16:01:33 ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs isDefinedBy fits thereasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10] [3] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-09-45 16:01:33 ACTION: alistair and sean to add a note about irreflexivity to Reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action05] [4] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-09-58 16:01:33 ACTION: Alistair to check the old namespace wrt dereferencing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03] [5] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-10-08 16:01:33 ACTION: Antoine and Ed to add content to Primer about irreflexivity [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06] [6] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-10-21 16:01:33 ACTION: Guus and Alistair write text for Reference indicating understanding of a possible need for future patterns for n-Ary label relations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action08] [7] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-10-32 16:01:33 ACTION: Guus and Sean propose some owl:imports text for Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action01] [8] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-10-43 16:01:33 ACTION: Ralph compose intermediate pages for http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-spec and http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/ to inform readers of the paths to the old and new SKOS documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action02] [9] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-11-43 16:01:33 ACTION: Sean and Alistair to send a file for the namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action04] [10] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-11-57 16:01:33 ACTION: Sean to write a proposal to indicate to OWL WG our requirements for annotation properties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action07] [11] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-12-18 16:01:33 ACTION: Clay will respond to Jakob about the resolution for notations and x-notation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/07-swd-minutes.html#action01] [12] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-12-34 16:01:33 ACTION: Editors of the Use Cases to clean up the lists of requirements in light of resolutions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/07-swd-minutes.html#action02] [13] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-13-46 16:01:33 ACTION: Alistair to close issue 64 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action26] [14] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-13-59 16:01:33 ACTION: Guus to mail his position on issues 72, 73 and 75 to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action25] [15] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-19-36 16:01:33 ACTION: Margherita to send an email on the need to keep symbolic labels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action24] [16] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-19-46 16:01:33 ACTION: Margherita to liase with author primer about example using plain literals and some with datatype literals [17] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-48-47 16:01:33 ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [18] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-52-41 16:01:33 ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [19] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-54-27 16:01:33 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] [20] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-54-37 16:01:33 ACTION: Jon will correct the PURL references in the recipes and update the files in W3space [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html#action12] [21] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-55-45 16:01:33 ACTION: Jon and Diego to publish a new Editor's Draft of the Recipes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action04] [22] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-56-19 16:01:33 ACTION: Ralph to review the new Editor's Draft of the Recipes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action06] [23] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-56-38 16:01:33 ACTION: Ed to review the new Editor's Draft of the Recipes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action05] [24] 16:01:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-irc#T15-56-48