08:11:10 RRSAgent has joined #svg 08:11:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-svg-irc 08:11:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 08:11:12 Zakim has joined #svg 08:11:14 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 08:11:14 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng 08:11:15 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 08:11:15 Date: 20 May 2008 08:11:24 zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go home 08:11:24 ok, ChrisL 08:11:35 topic: Adobe, SVG and eBooks 08:11:37 http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm 08:13:41 http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm . 08:14:09 http://markmail.org/message/mxcmubdgh7xzkccb 08:15:09 Present: Leonard Rosenthal (Adobe), Doug, Erik, Andrew, Anthony, Tony, Chris 08:19:00 http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html 08:19:39 "OPS Reading Systems must support SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) as an OPS Core Media Type." 08:47:36 trackbot-ng, status 08:47:43 trackbot-ng, action-1? 08:47:54 trackbot-ng, action-1 08:48:37 Topic: 1.2T test suite sprint 09:12:30 leonardr has joined #svg 09:49:13 aemmons has joined #svg 09:58:00 http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/ 11:39:22 ed has joined #svg 11:40:06 zlatinski has joined #svg 11:41:11 aemmons has joined #svg 11:47:09 leonardr has joined #svg 11:53:54 ChrisL has joined #svg 11:54:05 scribe: anthony 11:54:17 shepazu has joined #svg 11:54:19 Chair: Andrew Emmons 11:54:34 Topic: Circular references in use 11:55:11 ChrisL has changed the topic to: Sunny Vacations Goers 11:58:40 leonardr has joined #svg 11:59:59 11:59:59 11:59:59 12:00:00 12:00:00 12:00:00 12:00:02 12:00:04 12:00:06 12:00:08 12:00:10 12:00:15 DS: prepared a test case 12:00:30 ... [Describes test case] 12:00:40 ... clearly a circular reference 12:00:48 ... do we want this to be an error? 12:00:59 ... or do we want this to be invalid content... 12:01:16 ED: invalid IRI is what I was thinking 12:02:05 ... currently says in the linking table that it's an error 12:02:18 AE: You can still proceed with rendering the rect? 12:02:32 DS: No it's sufficiently unclear 12:02:45 AE: We have test already with transparency 12:02:56 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#ReferenceRestrictions 12:03:23 ... and the different levels of transparency indicate how many times you've gone through 12:03:35 DS: What happens when we encounter this case? 12:03:46 ... there are three interpretations for this 12:05:11 LR: The certain graphic operations where you can encounter an error 12:05:32 ... this operation shouldn't affect other operations 12:06:08 DS: So this would happen with incorrect attribute values 12:06:51 ... in 1.1 we would've said stop rendering if you find an error 12:07:24 ... in 1.2 if you find an error in the value you continue on 12:07:46 TZ: Do you display the error on the screen? 12:08:04 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/implnote.html#ErrorProcessing 12:08:58 AE: I think the error processing model we have we should be rendering the document 12:09:19 ED: So the IRI has some specific handling? 12:12:43 TZ: If you were to serialise the DOM back do you get the same DOM? 12:14:32 ... if you have DOM element already created how do you know it's an error? 12:15:01 ... have to have a way to show the user that it's an error 12:15:21 DS: We can provide an indication of an error 12:16:47 ... [Gives an example of authoring tool and viewer errors displayed] 12:17:23 ... How debugging is handled doesn't effect the user experience 12:17:39 ... it doesn't affect how the user views it 12:18:37 LR: Pose this from a different stand point. There is no way to put in a script that would validates onload 12:18:45 ... this is something that author would want 12:19:22 DS: That is something would belong in the Window interface 12:19:37 AE: JSR226 has very strict error handling 12:19:58 ... I can see the point that you load this content and there is an exception 12:20:09 ... it would be useful to know which element 12:20:33 ... but I'm hesitant because it increases the footprint 12:20:46 LR: That couldn't be embedded in the SVG? 12:20:53 DS: It would be in a script 12:21:11 ... and done in the Window interface 12:21:53 TZ: If I was just to hand write content and put it in Opera 12:22:07 ... I would hate for errors to be ignored 12:22:20 ... when developing the content 12:22:45 ED: There is an error console and a debugging tool 12:23:50 DS: What if we said in C2 and C3 a UA that encounters unsupported content or an error should provide an indication to authors what the error was 12:24:21 ... you may not want for security reasons the users to get at your files in non-debugging cases 12:24:44 TZ: There is no access to the DOM 12:24:56 AE: A way forward would be the Window interface 12:25:03 DS: Should apply to all HTML etc 12:28:58 ACTION: Doug to adding wording about a UA providing where the error is and a reason for the error in a debugging environment 12:28:59 Created ACTION-2022 - Adding wording about a UA providing where the error is and a reason for the error in a debugging environment [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27]. 12:29:12 AE: So about the linking 12:29:29 ... It should an unsupported attribute value 12:30:25 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/struct.html#UseElement 12:30:36 ED: [Reads out use element] 12:30:53 DS: Those should be reversed 12:31:05 CL: Would make more sense to word it that way 12:31:49 DS: We should say circular refs and other things the first circular ref will be treated as if it were an unsupported value 12:31:59 CL: Don't want to say it becomes 12:32:04 ... want to say it's treated as 12:32:23 AE: Need clarification about as soon it is detected 12:32:46 DS: We should say something about Lacuna values 12:32:55 ... is that what we want to happen? 12:33:12 ... if there is an unsupported attribute value? 12:33:20 .... I was going to put that in C2 12:33:44 ... by putting it in here we cover everything 12:33:56 AE: There may be some specifics for use 12:35:32 ACTION: Doug to modify linking reference regarding circular reference. When a circular reference is detected it will be treated as an unsupported attribute value 12:35:32 Created ACTION-2023 - Modify linking reference regarding circular reference. When a circular reference is detected it will be treated as an unsupported attribute value [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27]. 12:38:12 ACTION, Doug to update C.2, point 2, that since it's 'as if the value has not been specified', that it will be as if the lacuna value was used 12:38:52 since we already say in the spec that an invalid value is treated as if not specified 12:39:11 ... and thus, we can state that it renders as if the value was not specified 12:39:21 ... which is the same as the lacuna value 12:39:56 .. and also makes it clearf that the dom does not change (the invalid value is still in the dom) 12:40:06 DS: If you look at my original example you see that I'm referencing a group 12:40:45 ... at what point does it detect there is a circular reference? 12:40:56 CL: Need to be careful there 12:41:29 ... depends on how linking is done 12:42:43 DS: We just agreed that circular references are not allowed 12:42:55 AE: At the first point of detection 12:43:10 ... but the first point of detection is implementation specific 12:44:03 DS: We should either say something about it or we shouldn't 12:44:09 AE: We do say something 12:44:52 ... we don't allow circular references and you should stop at the first point of detection 12:45:29 DS: In my example the use references group 2 12:46:06 ... it doesn't render the use of group 2 but does the use of group 1 include the green circle? 12:46:10 AE: I'd say yes 12:46:29 DS: That's not what we say 12:46:46 ED: I think for use we would detect it when we get to group 2 the 2nd time 12:47:10 DS: The action is it doesn't render the action itself is we say an unsupported value 12:47:44 CL: There is no interoperable rendering of that 12:48:04 ... you could go through and figure out that you had circular references 12:48:26 AE: I don't think you can get interoperability on this 12:48:46 CL: This is known to cause issues don't do it 12:48:56 AE: So do you test for this? 12:50:06 CL: We should say if you are putting this in then you'll get varying output 12:50:43 ... I propose that we put something in 12:50:52 ... in D.3.1 12:52:04 Put it in D.3.1 Conforming SVG Document Fragments so that content with circular references is not conformant 12:52:38 That makes it clear not to rely on particular rendering of it, sinjce the point at which circularity is detected can vary 12:54:04 ACTION: doug to add wording to the specification that content with circular references is not conformant 12:54:04 Created ACTION-2024 - Add wording to the specification that content with circular references is not conformant [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27]. 12:55:19 TZ: Coming from industry I don't think this is a robust way to deal with this 12:56:01 ED: We could put something in the appendix for editors to give a warning 12:57:27 TZ: To me it is more logical to set something to (flag) say it is an error 12:58:16 DS: The wording already provides a way to meet your requirements 15:05:03 RRSAgent has joined #svg 15:05:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-svg-irc 15:28:13 http://www.adobe.com/products/digitaleditions/ 15:47:35 http://www.balisage.net/Versioning/index.html 15:51:47 zakim, bye 15:51:47 Zakim has left #svg 15:51:56 rssagent, make minutes 16:11:24 ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home 17:09:45 zlatinski has joined #svg