IRC log of ua on 2008-05-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:48:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:48:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc
17:49:03 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:49:13 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:49:13 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
17:49:36 [AllanJ]
Title: UAWG telecon
17:49:44 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:51:09 [AllanJ]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0099.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0106.html
17:56:06 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:56:41 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
17:56:48 [Zakim]
+jeanne
17:57:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
17:57:39 [AllanJ]
zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really AllanJ
17:57:39 [Zakim]
+AllanJ; got it
18:03:08 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
18:04:30 [oedipus]
www.freedomchat.org
18:04:40 [AllanJ]
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/iamc.html
18:06:40 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:06:42 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:07:08 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:07:40 [AllanJ]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly Ford
18:07:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Microsoft] is really Kelly Ford', AllanJ
18:07:45 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:08:15 [Zakim]
+??P12
18:08:25 [Jan]
zakim, ??P12 is really Jan
18:08:25 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:08:26 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
18:08:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jeanne, AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, [Microsoft], Judy, Jan
18:08:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, Jan, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, oedipus
18:08:42 [judy]
zakim, Microsoft is Kelly
18:08:42 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
18:09:07 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:10:36 [judy]
q+
18:10:41 [judy]
q-
18:11:25 [jeanne]
JA: HTML group wants to see "MUST" in the access module.
18:12:00 [jeanne]
GR: HTML group says over-riding key bindings are a MUST.
18:12:32 [KFord]
What's the syntax to put myself on the queue?
18:13:02 [jeanne]
JB: SHOULD, SHALL and MUST are policy/procedure words. Judy wants to look at this more carefully.
18:13:54 [jeanne]
JA: The items in question are P2 which would be "should" by WCAG1.
18:14:50 [jeanne]
....we haven't used that before. Makes it difficult for the developer to know what to code to.
18:15:19 [jeanne]
JR: Only use MUST when there is no reasonible exception to the rule.
18:15:49 [jeanne]
GR: Correct, they think there is no exception.
18:16:23 [oedipus]
http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
18:16:47 [jeanne]
KF: I'm not ok with MUST. I can't make this an absolute.
18:17:41 [jeanne]
GR: HTML WG is not negotiating on this.
18:17:48 [KFord]
q+
18:18:20 [oedipus]
s/HTML WG/XHTML2 WG
18:18:25 [Jan]
q+
18:18:36 [jeanne]
??: Does this draft now go to public comment? Can we provide feedback to that?
18:19:11 [jeanne]
JB: THey are enforcing a higher level of accessibility than UAAG?
18:19:36 [AllanJ]
propose Access module wording - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0100.html
18:21:21 [jeanne]
It is their spec.
18:21:54 [jeanne]
JA: We reviewed their spec and make our comments and cross-referenced the dependencies to our UAAG 1.0 checkpoints.
18:22:25 [jeanne]
...We re-wrote it based on our understanding of the language. They came back to a higher priority.
18:22:46 [jeanne]
JB: It would be a good cross-group courtesy to work this out before it goes to LC.
18:23:58 [jeanne]
... it could be useful to invite cross-group discussion so that our priorities can be synchonized. It could be difficult to coordinate time-wise.
18:24:44 [jeanne]
GR: the main editor is not available for meeting today. They like the idea of "persistent over session"
18:25:10 [jeanne]
.... we need to define what we mean by session. It is in the WAI glossary, which is out-dated.
18:25:42 [jeanne]
JA: Can we just put a period after "persist"?
18:26:51 [AllanJ]
old: If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key and
18:26:52 [AllanJ]
alert the user to the key mapping and the resultant user agent assigned
18:26:54 [AllanJ]
key SHOULD persist across sessions.
18:26:58 [jeanne]
GR: That wording leaves it open for sites that want to give user session options.
18:27:02 [AllanJ]
new: If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key and
18:27:04 [AllanJ]
alert the user to the key mapping and the resultant user agent assigned
18:27:05 [AllanJ]
key SHOULD persist.
18:27:31 [jeanne]
KF: In a public environment, you may not want the key to persist.
18:28:24 [jeanne]
JA: Sometime when we go to write techniques, we can give examples of writing it to a cookie, or other techniques.
18:29:14 [jeanne]
KF: If you have done something for accessibility, it should be implemented. It is open to enough interpretation that the user agent development community should have the flexibility they need.
18:30:19 [jeanne]
vote: KF: yes. GR: yes. JR: yes. JB: yes. JA:yes. JS:yes
18:30:39 [jeanne]
action: GR will take back to the HTML group.
18:31:38 [jeanne]
JB: Wants link to mailing archive for this discussion from the HTML group.
18:33:10 [jeanne]
zakim, next item
18:33:10 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
18:33:18 [jeanne]
topic: next week meeting
18:33:54 [jeanne]
Jim is away next week. Judy recommends skipping one week and planning a meeting for the next week.
18:34:17 [jeanne]
s/next/following
18:34:31 [jeanne]
topic: F2F
18:34:48 [jeanne]
JA: Want to discuss now because there deadlines coming up.
18:35:32 [jeanne]
JB: Tech Plenary and TPAC in France around October 29. Good opportunity for meeting.
18:36:31 [jeanne]
JB: Another option is ATAG is meeting in Redmond, WA in July 25, 26. Tuesday it was asked: Could we have a UAAG meeting at same time?
18:37:16 [jeanne]
s/JB: Another/JA: Another
18:37:49 [jeanne]
KF: if we have the meeting scheduled in France, do we need another?
18:38:34 [jeanne]
JB: It can be an advantage. With it scheduled for July, it could be good timing. We don't want to overwhelm hosting.
18:39:10 [jeanne]
... Another possibility would be another host in the same town. Or meet somewhere else before October.
18:39:39 [jeanne]
KF: Could get an official answer by ...
18:40:38 [jeanne]
JA: When KF finds out, he will send an email.
18:41:40 [jeanne]
topic: scribing
18:41:50 [jeanne]
JB: Who else is able to scribe?
18:42:12 [jeanne]
Jan, Jim, Gregory (once a month), Jeanne
18:42:28 [jeanne]
Kelly is willing, but doesn't know how to do it.
18:43:41 [jeanne]
JB: There are scribing tips we can distribute. We can set up a scribe rotation.
18:43:46 [jeanne]
GR: Has a scribe
18:44:10 [jeanne]
action: GR send it to Jeanne who will combine it with some other instructions.
18:44:38 [jeanne]
s/it to Jeanne/the scribing tips to Jeanne
18:45:32 [jeanne]
topic: future directions:
18:46:57 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0072.html
18:47:03 [jeanne]
JA: We need to work on these topics (printing, keyboard access, UA and Video) and work them out on the email list.
18:47:32 [jeanne]
topic: printing
18:47:43 [AllanJ]
SC: 3.11.X Print Scale: If a print from viewport feature is provided,
18:47:45 [AllanJ]
the user has the option of printing using the viewport's scale settings
18:47:47 [AllanJ]
such that the user agent should attempt to *passively reflow* the
18:47:48 [AllanJ]
content into the horizontal dimensions of paper. If passive reflow is
18:47:50 [AllanJ]
not possible, more than one sheet of paper will be required horizontally.
18:47:56 [jeanne]
JA: JR proposed removing "pieces of paper".
18:48:28 [jeanne]
... we need a new definition of "passively reflowing"
18:48:33 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:48:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jeanne, AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, Kelly, Judy, Jan
18:48:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KFord, judy, Jan, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ
18:49:07 [KFord]
q+
18:49:08 [jeanne]
KF: "print" is too restrictive, it doesn't include embossing.
18:49:40 [jeanne]
JB: propose "printing and embossing" to keep it from getting too obscure.
18:50:00 [jeanne]
JR: Does embossing horizontally cross two pages?
18:50:58 [jeanne]
GR: "Paged media" is too cryptic. Most user agents don't print directly to an embosser, they use another AT software to do the embossing.
18:51:52 [jeanne]
JB: Does it make sense to say "printing" and define it elsewhere? Or the first time it is used also include embossing?
18:52:36 [jeanne]
KF: When you send to an embosser, the embosser software does the reflow. The user agent doesn't have anything to do with it.
18:53:20 [jeanne]
KF: Leave it as is and include a note that some printing from user agent may include providng information to other technologies for production in alternative media."
18:53:22 [AllanJ]
q+
18:53:28 [Jan]
q-
18:53:46 [KFord]
q-
18:54:03 [jeanne]
GR: if you print something and it is too big for the page, it still needs to go somewhere and not be lost.
18:54:22 [jeanne]
JA: When I print from my browser, some text is lost off the right of the page.
18:54:30 [KFord]
q+
18:54:42 [jeanne]
Q+
18:54:42 [AllanJ]
q-
18:54:44 [KFord]
q-
18:55:21 [jeanne]
ack jeanne
18:55:32 [AllanJ]
jeanne: also an authoring problem, if css used properly it will reflow, if not printing breaks
18:56:17 [jeanne]
JA: Still need to define passive reflow. Any ideas on a definition?
18:56:33 [jeanne]
action JR will draft a definition
18:56:45 [jeanne]
... of passive reflow
18:57:04 [jeanne]
Action: JR will draft a definition of "passive reflow"
18:57:31 [AllanJ]
q+
18:57:44 [jeanne]
JR: Horizontal flow, do we also need to consider vertical flow to accommodate the direction of the language flow.
18:58:39 [jeanne]
Action: GR will re-examine CSS 2.1 on flow.
18:58:54 [jeanne]
Action: GR will post information on the Test Suite.
18:59:23 [AllanJ]
-q
18:59:27 [jeanne]
JA: CSS has language tags for left and right, but I have never seen anything for vertical.
19:00:27 [jeanne]
JB: I18l can fill us in on any requirements for print direction.
19:01:06 [jeanne]
JR: There is language that is appropriate.
19:01:32 [jeanne]
JA: What's the success criteria?
19:01:37 [KFord]
q+
19:01:45 [AllanJ]
+1 level 1
19:01:58 [jeanne]
GR: PR 1. Many examples of people who need it.
19:02:06 [jeanne]
ack KFord
19:02:52 [KFord]
q-
19:03:08 [jeanne]
KF: we need to think about the process of assigning priorities rather than throwing out use cases.
19:03:20 [jeanne]
JA: table this to two weeks.
19:03:33 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
19:04:12 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
19:04:13 [Zakim]
-Kelly
19:04:14 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:04:15 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:04:18 [jeanne]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:04:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:04:19 [Zakim]
-Judy
19:04:31 [Zakim]
-jeanne
19:04:32 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
19:04:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were jeanne, AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Jan, Kelly
19:05:14 [jeanne]
RRSagent, set logs public
19:05:20 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
19:05:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:05:27 [jeanne]
RRSAGEnt, bye
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-actions.rdf :
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GR will take back to the HTML group. [1]
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-30-39
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GR send it to Jeanne who will combine it with some other instructions. [2]
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-44-10
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR will draft a definition of "passive reflow" [3]
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-57-04
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GR will re-examine CSS 2.1 on flow. [4]
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-58-39
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GR will post information on the Test Suite. [5]
19:05:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-58-54