17:48:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:48:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc
17:49:03 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
17:49:13 <AllanJ> zakim, this will be wai_u
17:49:13 <Zakim> ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
17:49:36 <AllanJ> Title: UAWG telecon 
17:49:44 <AllanJ> Chair: Jim Allan
17:51:09 <AllanJ> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0099.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0106.html
17:56:06 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
17:56:41 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
17:56:48 <Zakim> +jeanne
17:57:06 <Zakim> + +1.512.206.aaaa
17:57:39 <AllanJ> zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really AllanJ
17:57:39 <Zakim> +AllanJ; got it
18:03:08 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
18:04:30 <oedipus> www.freedomchat.org
18:04:40 <AllanJ> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/iamc.html
18:06:40 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
18:06:42 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:07:08 <Zakim> +Judy
18:07:40 <AllanJ> zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly Ford
18:07:40 <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] is really Kelly Ford', AllanJ
18:07:45 <judy> judy has joined #ua
18:08:15 <Zakim> +??P12
18:08:25 <Jan> zakim, ??P12 is really Jan
18:08:25 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
18:08:26 <judy> zakim, who's here?
18:08:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeanne, AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, [Microsoft], Judy, Jan
18:08:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see judy, Jan, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, oedipus
18:08:42 <judy> zakim, Microsoft is Kelly
18:08:42 <Zakim> +Kelly; got it
18:09:07 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
18:10:36 <judy> q+
18:10:41 <judy> q-
18:11:25 <jeanne> JA: HTML group wants to see "MUST" in the access module. 
18:12:00 <jeanne> GR: HTML group says over-riding key bindings are a MUST. 
18:12:32 <KFord> What's the syntax to put myself on the queue?
18:13:02 <jeanne> JB: SHOULD, SHALL and MUST are policy/procedure words. Judy wants to look at this more carefully. 
18:13:54 <jeanne> JA: The items in question are P2 which would be "should" by WCAG1. 
18:14:50 <jeanne> ....we haven't used that before. Makes it difficult for the developer to know what to code to. 
18:15:19 <jeanne> JR: Only use MUST when there is no reasonible exception to the rule. 
18:15:49 <jeanne> GR: Correct, they think there is no exception. 
18:16:23 <oedipus> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
18:16:47 <jeanne> KF: I'm not ok with MUST. I can't make this an absolute.
18:17:41 <jeanne> GR: HTML WG is not negotiating on this. 
18:17:48 <KFord> q+
18:18:20 <oedipus> s/HTML WG/XHTML2 WG
18:18:25 <Jan> q+
18:18:36 <jeanne> ??: Does this draft now go to public comment? Can we provide feedback to that?
18:19:11 <jeanne> JB: THey are enforcing a higher level of accessibility than UAAG? 
18:19:36 <AllanJ> propose Access module wording - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0100.html
18:21:21 <jeanne> It is their spec.  
18:21:54 <jeanne> JA: We reviewed their spec and make our comments and cross-referenced the dependencies to our UAAG 1.0 checkpoints. 
18:22:25 <jeanne> ...We re-wrote it based on our understanding of the language. They came back to a higher priority.
18:22:46 <jeanne> JB: It would be a good cross-group courtesy to work this out before it goes to LC.
18:23:58 <jeanne> ... it could be useful to invite cross-group discussion so that our priorities can be synchonized. It could be difficult to coordinate time-wise. 
18:24:44 <jeanne> GR: the main editor is not available for meeting today. They like the idea of "persistent over session" 
18:25:10 <jeanne> .... we need to define what we mean by session. It is in the WAI glossary, which is out-dated. 
18:25:42 <jeanne> JA: Can we just put a period after "persist"?
18:26:51 <AllanJ> old: If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key and 
18:26:52 <AllanJ> alert the user to the key mapping and the resultant user agent assigned 
18:26:54 <AllanJ> key SHOULD persist across sessions. 
18:26:58 <jeanne> GR: That wording leaves it open for sites that want to give user session options.
18:27:02 <AllanJ> new: If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key and 
18:27:04 <AllanJ> alert the user to the key mapping and the resultant user agent assigned 
18:27:05 <AllanJ> key SHOULD persist. 
18:27:31 <jeanne> KF: In a public environment, you may not want the key to persist. 
18:28:24 <jeanne> JA: Sometime when we go to write techniques, we can give examples of writing it to a cookie, or other techniques.
18:29:14 <jeanne> KF: If you have done something for accessibility, it should be implemented. It is open to enough interpretation that the user agent development community should have the flexibility they need. 
18:30:19 <jeanne> vote: KF: yes. GR: yes. JR: yes. JB: yes. JA:yes. JS:yes
18:30:39 <jeanne> action: GR will take back to the HTML group.
18:31:38 <jeanne> JB: Wants link to mailing archive for this discussion from the HTML group. 
18:33:10 <jeanne> zakim, next item
18:33:10 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
18:33:18 <jeanne> topic: next week meeting
18:33:54 <jeanne> Jim is away next week. Judy recommends skipping one week and planning a meeting for the next week. 
18:34:17 <jeanne> s/next/following
18:34:31 <jeanne> topic: F2F
18:34:48 <jeanne> JA: Want to discuss now because there deadlines coming up. 
18:35:32 <jeanne> JB: Tech Plenary and TPAC in France around October 29. Good opportunity for meeting.
18:36:31 <jeanne> JB: Another option is ATAG is meeting in Redmond, WA in July 25, 26. Tuesday it was asked: Could we have a UAAG meeting at same time?
18:37:16 <jeanne> s/JB: Another/JA: Another
18:37:49 <jeanne> KF: if we have the meeting scheduled in France, do we need another? 
18:38:34 <jeanne> JB: It can be an advantage. With it scheduled for July, it could be good timing. We don't want to overwhelm hosting.
18:39:10 <jeanne> ... Another possibility would be another host in the same town. Or meet somewhere else before October. 
18:39:39 <jeanne> KF: Could get an official answer by ...
18:40:38 <jeanne> JA: When KF finds out, he will send an email.  
18:41:40 <jeanne> topic: scribing
18:41:50 <jeanne> JB: Who else is able to scribe? 
18:42:12 <jeanne> Jan, Jim, Gregory (once a month), Jeanne
18:42:28 <jeanne> Kelly is willing, but doesn't know how to do it. 
18:43:41 <jeanne> JB: There are scribing tips we can distribute. We can set up a scribe rotation.
18:43:46 <jeanne> GR: Has a scribe
18:44:10 <jeanne> action: GR send it to Jeanne who will combine it with some other instructions. 
18:44:38 <jeanne> s/it to Jeanne/the scribing tips to Jeanne
18:45:32 <jeanne> topic: future directions:
18:46:57 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0072.html
18:47:03 <jeanne> JA: We need to work on these topics (printing, keyboard access, UA and Video) and work them out on the email list. 
18:47:32 <jeanne> topic: printing
18:47:43 <AllanJ> SC: 3.11.X Print Scale: If a print from viewport feature is provided, 
18:47:45 <AllanJ> the user has the option of printing using the viewport's scale settings 
18:47:47 <AllanJ> such that the user agent should attempt to *passively reflow* the 
18:47:48 <AllanJ> content into the horizontal dimensions of paper. If passive reflow is 
18:47:50 <AllanJ> not possible, more than one sheet of paper will be required horizontally.
18:47:56 <jeanne> JA: JR proposed removing "pieces of paper".  
18:48:28 <jeanne> ... we need a new definition of "passively reflowing"
18:48:33 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:48:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeanne, AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, Kelly, Judy, Jan
18:48:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see KFord, judy, Jan, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ
18:49:07 <KFord> q+
18:49:08 <jeanne> KF: "print" is too restrictive, it doesn't include embossing. 
18:49:40 <jeanne> JB: propose "printing and embossing" to keep it from getting too obscure.
18:50:00 <jeanne> JR: Does embossing horizontally cross two pages?
18:50:58 <jeanne> GR: "Paged media" is too cryptic. Most user agents don't print directly to an embosser, they use another AT software to do the embossing.
18:51:52 <jeanne> JB: Does it make sense to say "printing" and define it elsewhere? Or the first time it is used also include embossing?
18:52:36 <jeanne> KF: When you send to an embosser, the embosser software does the reflow. The user agent doesn't have anything to do with it. 
18:53:20 <jeanne> KF: Leave it as is and include a note that some printing from user agent may include providng information to other technologies for production in alternative media."
18:53:22 <AllanJ> q+
18:53:28 <Jan> q-
18:53:46 <KFord> q-
18:54:03 <jeanne> GR: if you print something and it is too big for the page, it still needs to go somewhere and not be lost. 
18:54:22 <jeanne> JA: When I print from my browser, some text is lost off the right of the page. 
18:54:30 <KFord> q+
18:54:42 <jeanne> Q+
18:54:42 <AllanJ> q-
18:54:44 <KFord> q-
18:55:21 <jeanne> ack jeanne
18:55:32 <AllanJ> jeanne: also an authoring problem, if css used properly it will reflow, if not printing breaks
18:56:17 <jeanne> JA: Still need to define passive reflow.  Any ideas on a definition?
18:56:33 <jeanne> action JR will draft a definition
18:56:45 <jeanne> ... of passive reflow
18:57:04 <jeanne> Action: JR will draft a definition of "passive reflow"
18:57:31 <AllanJ> q+
18:57:44 <jeanne> JR: Horizontal flow, do we also need to consider vertical flow to accommodate the direction of the language flow.
18:58:39 <jeanne> Action: GR will re-examine CSS 2.1 on flow. 
18:58:54 <jeanne> Action: GR will post information on the Test Suite. 
18:59:23 <AllanJ> -q
18:59:27 <jeanne> JA: CSS has language tags for left and right, but I have never seen anything for vertical. 
19:00:27 <jeanne> JB: I18l can fill us in on any requirements for print direction. 
19:01:06 <jeanne> JR: There is language that is appropriate. 
19:01:32 <jeanne> JA: What's the success criteria? 
19:01:37 <KFord> q+
19:01:45 <AllanJ> +1 level 1
19:01:58 <jeanne> GR: PR 1. Many examples of people who need it. 
19:02:06 <jeanne> ack KFord
19:02:52 <KFord> q-
19:03:08 <jeanne> KF: we need to think about the process of assigning priorities rather than throwing out use cases. 
19:03:20 <jeanne> JA: table this to two weeks. 
19:03:33 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
19:04:12 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
19:04:13 <Zakim> -Kelly
19:04:14 <Zakim> -AllanJ
19:04:15 <Zakim> -Jan
19:04:18 <jeanne> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:04:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:04:19 <Zakim> -Judy
19:04:31 <Zakim> -jeanne
19:04:32 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
19:04:33 <Zakim> Attendees were jeanne, AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Jan, Kelly
19:05:14 <jeanne> RRSagent, set logs public
19:05:20 <jeanne> zakim, bye
19:05:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:05:27 <jeanne> RRSAGEnt, bye
19:05:27 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-actions.rdf :
19:05:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GR will take back to the HTML group. [1]
19:05:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-30-39
19:05:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GR send it to Jeanne who will combine it with some other instructions.  [2]
19:05:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-44-10
19:05:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR will draft a definition of "passive reflow" [3]
19:05:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-57-04
19:05:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GR will re-examine CSS 2.1 on flow.  [4]
19:05:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-58-39
19:05:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GR will post information on the Test Suite.  [5]
19:05:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-ua-irc#T18-58-54