IRC log of xhtml on 2008-05-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:32:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:32:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:33:11 [RolandMerrick]
Zakim, this will be XHTML2
13:33:11 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, RolandMerrick
13:33:19 [RolandMerrick]
Zakim, list
13:33:19 [Zakim]
I see Team_W3M()8:00AM, SEC_WSCWG(F2F)2:00AM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
13:34:04 [Steven]
zakim, this will be xhtml
13:34:04 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Steven
13:34:08 [RolandMerrick]
dunno :-(
13:34:10 [Steven]
13:35:20 [Steven]
13:35:20 [Steven]
zakim was weird yesterday too
13:35:22 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:35:46 [RolandMerrick]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:36:08 [RolandMerrick]
13:36:15 [RolandMerrick]
Chair: Roland
13:36:26 [RolandMerrick]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:36:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RolandMerrick
13:36:36 [RolandMerrick]
rrsagent, make log public
13:37:11 [Roland]
Roland has joined #xhtml
13:37:15 [Steven]
zakim, this will be ia
13:37:16 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Steven
13:37:25 [Steven]
zakim,this will be html
13:37:27 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Steven
13:37:34 [Steven]
13:38:42 [Roland]
this happened to me yesterday, could call in as usual though.
13:39:01 [oedipus]
yeah, zakim works as a bridge, but nothing else
13:40:19 [Roland]
I have dialed in and all seems "normal"
13:42:07 [Steven]
zakim, this is xhtml
13:42:07 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; that matches IA_XHTML2()9:45AM
13:42:34 [Steven]
apparently someone has to dial in for Zakim to get it
13:43:03 [Steven]
04Zakim-bot does not have today's schedule loaded; if Zakim says "I do not see a conference" before your conf is started then dial-in to start your conference and say "this is ..."01""
13:43:23 [Steven]
found on sysreq irc channel
13:43:42 [Zakim]
13:44:18 [Zakim]
13:45:46 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-mobile
13:45:47 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:45:48 [Zakim]
13:46:44 [Steven]
There is a national adsl breakdown since 3am yesterday
13:46:51 [Steven]
so I am using my cell for both the call and IP...
13:47:06 [oedipus]
so you're the one who sounds like they are in a submarine?
13:47:13 [Steven]
sounds quality rather poor
13:48:29 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
13:48:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roland, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven
13:48:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Steven, Lachy, Tina, krijnh
13:49:07 [Roland]
Regrets: Mark
13:49:25 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:49:25 [Zakim]
13:49:30 [oedipus]
scribeNick: oedipus
13:49:54 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Outstanding Reviews
13:50:02 [Steven]
zakim, ??P6 is Alessio
13:50:02 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:50:07 [oedipus]
RM: only 2 people and myself at last week's meeting -- nothing happened
13:50:24 [oedipus]
RM: review for XML Base?
13:50:29 [oedipus]
Steven: no
13:50:40 [oedipus]
RM: june face 2 face -- has everyone filled in form?
13:50:44 [Steven]
13:51:22 [oedipus]
Steven action to review XML Base by 30 June continued
13:51:32 [Roland]
F2F Registration form:
13:51:36 [Tina]
The f2f has fallen out of my list. Will get to it.
13:52:01 [Steven]
Maybe do it entirely remotely?
13:52:02 [oedipus]
RM: reads face2face page -- only 3 people listed as attendees
13:52:11 [oedipus]
RM: worthwhile? what are people's intentions?
13:52:22 [oedipus]
RM: yam will be on IRC rather than in person
13:52:28 [oedipus]
GJR: cannot attend
13:52:45 [oedipus]
RM: steven, shane and roland will attend
13:52:52 [oedipus]
GJR: yes by phone and IRC
13:53:13 [oedipus]
Alessio: will attend remotely
13:53:28 [oedipus]
Steven: do entire F2F remotely?
13:53:37 [oedipus]
Tina: will attend remotely
13:53:57 [oedipus]
RM: MarkB unknown status
13:54:12 [Zakim]
13:54:13 [oedipus]
SM: MarkB travelling most of may, disinclined to travel in june
13:54:15 [Steven]
13:54:17 [ShaneM]
13:54:30 [Steven]
13:54:46 [Zakim]
13:54:53 [Steven]
Mark says he can't attend in person, can attend remotely
13:54:55 [oedipus]
RM: once get mark's answer, will consider moving dates, moving location, keeping dates and location, doing whole remotely or whatever circumstances dictate
13:55:22 [oedipus]
RM: question: people can do remotely -- is the problem the location?
13:55:27 [oedipus]
GJR: no
13:55:43 [oedipus]
Alessio: financial and logistic problem
13:55:47 [Tina]
13:56:21 [oedipus]
GJR cannot attend due to health problems and such
13:56:28 [Steven]
Mark says the problem is availability of time
13:56:50 [Steven]
I concur that it is silly for three to travel
13:56:52 [oedipus]
RM: only 3 people attending doesn't sound wise for those 3 to travel - might as well all be equal and have a virtual f2f
13:57:00 [Steven]
We should try and set up a remote meeting then
13:57:08 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1 to SP
13:57:19 [oedipus]
RM: shall we resolve to have virtual f2f?
13:57:21 [Steven]
13:57:21 [oedipus]
GJR: yes
13:57:26 [ShaneM]
+1 I guess
13:57:51 [Tina]
... not *alot*, anyway ... ;)
13:57:58 [oedipus]
RM: what would be a workable time-slot for all of us?
13:58:03 [Tina]
ShaneM: that reminds me, need a quick word afterwards.
13:58:23 [oedipus]
RM: shane is UTC minus 5 -- furthest west?
13:58:37 [oedipus]
SM: gerrie schultz (last name spelled incorrectly)
13:58:43 [oedipus]
SM: easy to shift schedule
13:58:46 [oedipus]
GJR: same for me
13:58:56 [Steven]
Our flexible friend
13:59:18 [oedipus]
RM: will suggest logistics - probably 3 hour chuncks
13:59:31 [Steven]
how many chunks?
13:59:31 [Steven]
13:59:32 [oedipus]
RM: will confer next week on RM's proposed logistics
13:59:42 [oedipus]
13:59:51 [oedipus]
RM: in last call; received a bit of feedback
14:00:02 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Role Module
14:00:09 [oedipus]
RM: ended last call on 10 may 2008
14:00:12 [Steven]
SVG sent comments last week
14:00:39 [oedipus]
RM: dialog with WAI about Access Module and placement of ARIA role names into XHTML namespace
14:00:47 [Steven]
14:00:47 [oedipus]
SP: SVG comment from last thursday
14:01:07 [oedipus]
SM: forwarded to issue tracker system -- in "incoming" bucket -- moving to "Role" bucket now
14:01:16 [oedipus]
RM: vocab document dialog
14:01:36 [oedipus]
SM: not critical path for spec; vocab doc will develop independently and should let it do so
14:02:04 [Tina]
On topic of Access Module and ARIA: am doing a brief presentation at a Swedish IT professionals organisation, Monday 19th, on topic of XHTML 2 WG. If anyone have input on that topic, feel free to contact me directly.
14:02:10 [oedipus]
RM: where are normative definitions -- SM response on list; should consider -- vocab document something machine-processable at run-time -- seems to me should be normative like schema or DTD
14:02:21 [oedipus]
SM: not saying not normative, just not part of spec
14:02:31 [oedipus]
RM: question posed by AlG -- is it a normative document
14:02:42 [oedipus]
SM: will have to reread question in light of RM's comments
14:03:07 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Steve Bratt on Transition
14:03:12 [oedipus]
RM: REALLY dragging on...
14:03:47 [oedipus]
SP: sent email yesterday; got unclear reply -- not clear what root of problem is, so tried again
14:04:09 [oedipus]
RM: yam sent email to list -- can't refer to spec -- holding up other OMA specs
14:04:17 [oedipus]
SM: holding up other specs for us, too
14:04:21 [oedipus]
RM: not just us
14:04:33 [oedipus]
SP: no formal reply to transition request
14:04:43 [oedipus]
RM: causing problems for OMA
14:05:01 [oedipus]
RM: biggest problem for OMA isn't Basic transition, but M12n
14:05:30 [oedipus]
RM: don't undestand delay -- especially without explanation
14:05:48 [oedipus]
TOPIC: RDFa Syntax
14:06:02 [oedipus]
RM: different comments from TAG
14:06:28 [oedipus]
SM: the core of issue is something we discussed long time ago -- XHTML+SVG media type -- request from TAG to change doc to permit RDF
14:06:48 [oedipus]
SM: TAG commented about mediatypes and RDFa - felt need to update media doc
14:07:10 [oedipus]
SP: thought we said we didn't see what problem was
14:07:17 [oedipus]
SM: right -- did you convey that to TAG?
14:07:43 [oedipus]
SM: background - TAG has document working on - NormW updated this week, still states need media type to change
14:07:56 [oedipus]
14:09:01 [oedipus]
SM: talked with noah privately, now understand what is going on -- semantic web and announcements: how do things that are part of semantic web know that content might contain RDF -- how helping with RDFa syntax; don't think is an issue for this WG -- don't need to do anything with mediatype and want to ascertain if we have stated that to TAG and if not, we should now
14:09:05 [Roland]
The Self-Describing Web :
14:09:29 [oedipus]
SM: TAG suggestion: update mediatype to affirm that RDF can be served
14:09:38 [oedipus]
SM: not necessary
14:09:46 [oedipus]
SP: send again to TAG
14:10:30 [oedipus]
steven's existing action: recorded in
14:10:31 [Roland]
existing action :
14:11:03 [oedipus]
SM: meanwhile will get task force to respond to Noah's draft -- bigger response could be made, but want to put to bed
14:11:14 [Steven]
I'm sorry. I think I confused that with my other action wrt the TAG
14:11:21 [oedipus]
RM: is that all on RDFa side? still another couple of outstanding actions
14:11:54 [oedipus]
SM: XML data set; want to leave other actions open -- need more dialog on rel attribute; have sent out email, but so far no replies
14:12:14 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Access Module
14:12:32 [oedipus]
RM: GJR emailed Access Module rewording to list today (14 may 2008)
14:12:37 [oedipus]
SM: not had time to read
14:12:52 [yamx]
yamx has joined #xhtml
14:13:23 [Roland]
GJR note:
14:13:54 [Zakim]
14:14:04 [oedipus]
14:14:05 [yamx]
zakim, ??P2 is yamx.
14:14:05 [Zakim]
+yamx; got it
14:19:01 [ShaneM]
Shane asked about the definition of "session". Gregory will try to find a reference.
14:19:34 [ShaneM]
Shane asked why everything is "should" instead of "must". Gregory indicated they did not want to use MUST because it is too strong.
14:19:47 [oedipus]
14:22:41 [oedipus]
User agents <ins>MUST</ins> provide mechanisms for overriding the author setting
14:22:41 [oedipus]
with user-specified settings in order to ensure that the act of moving
14:22:41 [oedipus]
content focus does not cause the user agent to take any further action,
14:22:41 [oedipus]
as required by UAAG 1.0, Checkpoint 9.5. [1]
14:23:13 [ShaneM]
There is an assertion missing from @key about MUST be able to override. Gregory agreed to add it back.
14:25:10 [oedipus]
s/they did not/part of the UAWG did not
14:26:11 [oedipus]
RESOLUTION: accept changes proposed by GJR as well as those agreed to at this meeting; GJR will repost to public-xhtml2 ASAP
14:26:48 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XML Events 2
14:26:49 [oedipus]
RM: done updates to XML Events 2 following f2f should work through review and take to last call asap
14:26:55 [Steven]
please add resolution to go to last call
14:27:03 [Steven]
(only the scribe can do it)
14:27:19 [oedipus]
RESOLUTION: Access Module will go to last call as ammended
14:28:06 [oedipus]
RM: XML Events 2 draft ready to for publich review in preparation for transition to last call -- perhaps next week
14:28:18 [oedipus]
14:28:29 [Steven]
14:28:48 [oedipus]
RM: would like to go through Alessio's work on frames and iframe
14:29:02 [oedipus]
RM: read email from 2 weeks ago -- are you connected AC?
14:29:05 [Steven]
I would also like to report back on XTech conference
14:29:24 [oedipus]
AC: only begining of possible work on object strengthening
14:29:32 [oedipus]
RM: talk us through it at next week's call?
14:29:34 [oedipus]
AC: yes
14:29:41 [oedipus]
RM: will put specifically on agenda
14:30:41 [oedipus]
SP: feedback from XTech Conference: gave an XForms presentation -- very well received; discovered 2 more implementations didn't previously know of, but biggest joyous suprise was popularity of RDFa - major sites already adopting it, quite a buzz
14:31:13 [oedipus]
RM: clear up how to treat RDFa in HTML with TAG
14:31:15 [Steven]
Also got interviewd by BBC on the HTML5/XHTML2 thing
14:31:26 [Steven]
will be posted on
14:32:03 [Steven]
THat's a good solution: we can do that in no time
14:32:23 [Steven]
(that=changing the xhtml ns doc)
14:32:41 [Steven]
14:33:08 [Tina]
Speaking of implementations ... if not implementation per se: there's work being done to start checking for ARIA and other similar techniques by my company's quality testing tool. No details as of yet.
14:33:21 [Steven]
ack me
14:33:24 [oedipus]
SM: TBL has suggested that change XHTML namespace doc so that if RDF processor is following its nose, it knows magically that any XHTML document might contain RDFa; a GRDDL processor can get RDF out of any XHTML document - very exiting from 50,000 foot level (enable semantic web); implication - any document will contain triples despite work we've done - strips announcement mechanism -- author can use doctype or version to declare using RDFa -- need to encoura
14:34:25 [oedipus]
SP: all of a sudden a bunch of docs containing triples -- all they do is represent a formal semantic way or implying that this is part of XHTML and this is part of RDFa -- don't know why objection to relationship statements; being extracted in RDF is only real concern -- what is being done with it
14:34:38 [oedipus]
SM: relationships there in that there is a @rel with a value
14:35:07 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't mean that i as author not committing to architechture; semantic web about a contract -- this is where draw the line -- have to state where appropriate
14:35:50 [oedipus]
RM: trying to ascertain how to say document more than one thing -- can write a bunch of valid XHTML 1.x and valid XHTML Mobile Profile and XHTML Basic -- aught to be able to claim conformance to all
14:36:01 [Steven]
I don't see the problem of extracting the relationships as RDF; the reationships are really there; all that has changed is representing them as RDF
14:36:09 [Steven]
it is like changing a JPG to PNG
14:36:10 [oedipus]
RM: one of these AND one of these AND one of these
14:36:15 [Steven]
the information is the same
14:36:22 [oedipus]
RM: i am one of these - by implication i am not one of those
14:36:49 [oedipus]
SM: if claim is can write valid Xfoo - validator should validate; if not valid XHTML Mobile, then it is not
14:37:15 [oedipus]
RM: version, doctype or mimetypes -- all contain info about pieces of compound document -- too many ways of talking about content
14:37:36 [oedipus]
SM: proposal
14:38:02 [oedipus]
RM: addressed when discussed script ennumeration of features -- describe features and not the content
14:38:18 [Steven]
it might be my keyboard
14:38:25 [oedipus]
RM: knee-jerk capabilities need to be considered
14:38:43 [oedipus]
SM: have thought about way of saying "this doc is using a collection of features X" and that is of potential interest
14:38:53 [oedipus]
SM: might be proposed syntax from 8 years ago
14:39:13 [oedipus]
RM: more and more messy as enter mashup and fragment world -- fragment should assert what it is, not parent
14:39:24 [Steven]
<link rel="stylesheet" href="s.css"/> says "this document uses a stylesheet called "s.css"
14:39:28 [oedipus]
SM: wonderful concept, but cobbling together arbitrary content is problematic
14:39:28 [Steven]
so does:
14:39:46 [Steven]
<> html:stylesheet <s.css>
14:39:50 [oedipus]
RM: if created valid SVG can assert it is valid and can be part of embedded SVG
14:40:04 [oedipus]
GJR: question out of ignorance - can XPath be leveraged?
14:40:19 [Steven]
14:40:22 [oedipus]
14:40:30 [oedipus]
ack steven
14:40:55 [oedipus]
SP: what do we do about this -- plan change to NS that XHTML docs may contain GRDDL profile and RDFa encoding?
14:41:38 [oedipus]
SM: talked with TBL and danC about this -- just change doc at end of NS so has declaration, so that magica can ocurr -- all docs that reference this NS are included - that is TBL's view
14:41:45 [oedipus]
SM: like @link
14:42:00 [oedipus]
SP: gets around media types argument
14:42:27 [oedipus]
SM: bad solution -- implies that entire XHTML using internet is suddently using triples -- don't think we've thought through all implicatinos of that
14:42:42 [oedipus]
RM: might be a small change, but MUST document implications of change so people are aware of that
14:43:04 [oedipus]
SM: fully agree -- but not as response to a comment at this point in process
14:43:20 [oedipus]
RM: may decide to do it -- not endorsing -- should make clear effect of doing it
14:43:24 [oedipus]
SM: not our decision
14:43:31 [oedipus]
RM: yes, but we can provide guidance
14:43:47 [oedipus]
SM: would like TAG to chime in on this -- big picture about web development
14:43:57 [oedipus]
RM: go chew on this one rather than curies
14:44:10 [oedipus]
SM: will do as soon as given action by RDFa task force
14:44:44 [oedipus]
SM: also interested in hearing W3C's input from logistical perspective - means a whole class of things going to leave XHTML NS - interesting impact on web infrastructure of W3C
14:44:55 [oedipus]
14:44:56 [ShaneM]
I wil copy this group on my comments on the tag stuff.
14:45:16 [oedipus]
RM: good discussion -- any other items that need additional prorities, send to list and will get on agenda
14:45:22 [Zakim]
14:45:23 [Zakim]
14:45:26 [Zakim]
14:45:28 [Steven]
zakim, drtop me
14:45:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'drtop me', Steven
14:45:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:45:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:45:32 [Zakim]
14:45:32 [Steven]
zakim, drop me
14:45:33 [Zakim]
Steven is being disconnected
14:45:33 [Zakim]
14:45:40 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
14:45:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita
14:45:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see yamx, Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Steven, Lachy, Tina, krijnh
14:45:46 [Zakim]
14:45:48 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:45:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, Alessio, yamx
14:45:51 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
14:45:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xhtml
14:45:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:45:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:47:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:47:58 [oedipus]
present+ Tina_on_IRC
14:48:00 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:48:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:48:07 [Roland]
Present: +Tina
14:48:23 [Roland]
:-) great minds
14:48:29 [oedipus]
14:48:47 [Tina]
Thank you :)
14:49:11 [oedipus]
thank you for participating under adverse circumstances (a.k.a. life)
14:49:42 [Tina]
Hey, atleast here it doesn't matter if I cough my lungs out occasionally ;)
14:50:03 [oedipus]
that's pretty much my morning ritual
14:50:15 [ShaneM]
well - if you will live in New Jersey
14:50:17 [oedipus]
14:50:34 [oedipus]
mea culpa -- i am a joisey boy through and through
14:51:20 [Tina]
It *was* pneumonia. Been hitting the family in waves.
14:52:16 [oedipus]
yikes - i know from personal experience that's no fun - missed the WWWx meeting in brisbane with a case of pnuemonia
14:52:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
14:52:44 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items