IRC log of bpwg on 2008-05-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:01:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-bpwg-irc
14:01:22 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:01:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:01:24 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:01:25 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng, I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM already started
14:01:25 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:01:26 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 08 May 2008
14:01:38 [jeffs]
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14:01:42 [hgerlach]
hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:01:53 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, +0774762aaaa
14:02:06 [DKA]
zakim, +0774762aaaa is Scott
14:02:08 [Zakim]
+Scott; got it
14:02:12 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Scott
14:02:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:02:26 [Zakim]
+hgerlach
14:02:26 [hgerlach]
hi
14:02:56 [Zakim]
+jeffs
14:03:09 [DKA]
Regrets: +Bryan
14:03:44 [achuter]
achuter has joined #bpwg
14:04:01 [manrique]
manrique has joined #bpwg
14:04:16 [Zakim]
+adam
14:04:17 [DKA]
Regrets: +robert, +martin, +sean, +magnus, +andrew
14:04:25 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:04:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Scott, hgerlach, jeffs, adam
14:04:26 [adam]
adam has joined #bpwg
14:04:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see manrique, achuter, hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:05:13 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:05:14 [Zakim]
+berrueta
14:05:23 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Scott, hgerlach, jeffs, adam, [IPcaller], berrueta
14:05:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see adam, manrique, achuter, hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:05:35 [DKA]
zakim, [ipcaller] is Alan
14:05:35 [Zakim]
+Alan; got it
14:05:37 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Scott, hgerlach, jeffs, adam, Alan, berrueta
14:05:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see adam, manrique, achuter, hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:05:42 [achuter]
achuter has joined #bpwg
14:06:19 [jo]
jo has joined #bpwg
14:06:21 [DKA]
Scribe: Alan
14:06:25 [DKA]
ScribeNick: Achuter
14:06:37 [manrique]
zakim berrueta is me
14:06:43 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:06:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Scott, hgerlach, jeffs, adam, Alan, berrueta
14:06:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jo, achuter, adam, manrique, hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:06:54 [manrique]
zakim, berrueta is me
14:06:54 [Zakim]
+manrique; got it
14:06:54 [jo]
zakim, code?
14:06:55 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:07:08 [nacho]
nacho has joined #bpwg
14:07:22 [achuter]
zakim, Alan is me
14:07:22 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
14:07:23 [Zakim]
+jo
14:07:25 [manrique]
zakim, miguel is with me
14:07:25 [Zakim]
+miguel; got it
14:07:29 [abel]
abel has joined #bpwg
14:07:34 [manrique]
zakim, nacho is with me
14:07:34 [Zakim]
+nacho; got it
14:07:40 [manrique]
zakim, abel is with me
14:07:40 [Zakim]
+abel; got it
14:07:42 [jo]
rrsagent, pointer
14:07:42 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-bpwg-irc#T14-07-42
14:08:18 [achuter]
topic Mobile OK Pro
14:08:45 [jo]
s/topic Mobile OK Pro/Topic: Mobile OK Pro
14:09:04 [achuter]
achuter has joined #bpwg
14:09:13 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
14:09:13 [Zakim]
achuter was already muted, achuter
14:09:32 [achuter]
topic MobileOK Pro
14:09:38 [Seungyun]
Seungyun has joined #bpwg
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No report, as Kai not present
14:10:01 [Seungyun]
This is Seungyun, sorry late join
14:10:03 [jo]
s/topic MobileOK Pro//
14:10:30 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
14:10:30 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
14:10:48 [abel_]
abel_ has joined #bpwg
14:10:54 [jo]
scribe: jo
14:11:01 [jo]
topic: Introductions
14:11:04 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:11:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Scott, hgerlach, jeffs (muted), adam, achuter, manrique, jo
14:11:06 [Zakim]
manrique has manrique, miguel, nacho, abel
14:11:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see abel_, Seungyun, achuter, abel, nacho, jo, adam, manrique, hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:11:08 [edm]
edm has joined #bpwg
14:11:13 [Zakim]
+Ed_Mitukiewicz
14:11:28 [jo]
dka: Scott Hughes has joined from Vodafone
14:11:43 [jo]
scott: Interested in Ajax etc ...
14:11:44 [abel]
abel has joined #bpwg
14:12:04 [jo]
topic: BP 2.0
14:12:30 [jo]
dka: Adam has volunteered to join Bryan as editor and we are very grateful
14:12:47 [jo]
adam: Have similar interests to Scott ...
14:13:03 [Kai]
Kai has joined #bpwg
14:13:21 [jo]
Topic: Accessibility doc
14:13:30 [Kai]
zakim, code?
14:13:30 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Kai
14:13:44 [achuter]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080506/mwbp-wcag20.html
14:13:52 [jo]
achuter: we got in a bit of a muddle during the restructuring, but now I have got round to doing the restructure
14:14:00 [Zakim]
+Kai_Dietrich
14:14:14 [jo]
... how Mobile Best Practices help Accessibility
14:14:36 [jo]
... should be much easier to understand, this is half of the original doc the other half is:
14:14:45 [jo]
... in another doc
14:15:02 [jo]
... [alan discusses structure of the document]
14:15:08 [achuter]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080506/mwbp-wcag20_helps.html
14:15:34 [jo]
... and the other half is arranged under the best practices and how they help users with disabilities
14:16:12 [jo]
... we still have WCAG1 -> Mobile to work trhough and also the WCAG2 -Yeliz is doing that
14:16:26 [jo]
... not ready for group review yet
14:16:37 [jo]
dka: do we need 2 docs for this?
14:16:47 [jo]
achuter: yes, they are differently structured
14:17:16 [jo]
... complexity should not be a problem though their are more pages
14:17:39 [jo]
dka: as a developer, is this difficult to use?
14:17:59 [jo]
achuter: there is an overview which will explain which one you should use
14:18:16 [jo]
dka: is this in line with EOWG wants to do it?
14:18:20 [jo]
achuter: yes
14:18:33 [jo]
dka: what should we target for the F2F on this doc
14:19:07 [jo]
... should we put on the agenda ... 6 weeks till F2F ... when should we target PWD?
14:19:22 [jo]
achuter: Shaun drew up a timetable which I can't find ...
14:19:32 [jo]
... [scrabble scrabble]
14:19:52 [abel_]
abel_ has joined #bpwg
14:20:00 [achuter]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-mwbp-wcag#publication
14:20:05 [jo]
... [scrabbling stops]
14:20:22 [jo]
... that link takes you to the schedule
14:20:51 [jo]
... restreucturing should have been done by 30th Apr is running 2 weeks behind
14:21:06 [jo]
s/restreucturing/restructuring
14:21:21 [Kai]
abel_WsP&)l WsP&)l
14:22:09 [jo]
dka: like to review this for the F2F
14:22:10 [Zakim]
-Scott
14:22:34 [jo]
achuter: should be ready at the beginning of the week after next
14:22:51 [Zakim]
+Scott
14:23:20 [jo]
dka: sounds like a good plan, you won't be on call next week, if you can email before the next call after that then that would be goodf
14:23:27 [jo]
s/goodf/good/
14:23:29 [achuter]
zakim, mute
14:23:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mute', achuter
14:23:32 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
14:23:32 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
14:23:41 [abel]
abel has joined #bpwg
14:23:41 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
14:23:41 [Zakim]
achuter was already muted, achuter
14:23:57 [jo]
Topic: MobileOK Pro (bis)
14:24:21 [jo]
Kai: we didn't get it all done ...
14:24:25 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:24:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, hgerlach, jeffs (muted), adam, achuter (muted), manrique, jo, Ed_Mitukiewicz, Kai_Dietrich, Scott
14:24:27 [Zakim]
manrique has manrique, miguel, nacho, abel
14:24:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see abel, abel_, Kai, edm, Seungyun, achuter, nacho, jo, adam, manrique, hgerlach, jeffs, Zakim, RRSAgent, Scott, DKA, trackbot-ng, dom
14:24:49 [jo]
manrique: working on the tests today so should be ready soon
14:25:00 [jo]
dka: let's put time on next week's agenda then
14:25:14 [jo]
... can you publish a couple of days in advance of the call
14:25:16 [abel_]
abel_ has joined #bpwg
14:25:24 [jo]
kai: I won't be able to work on this stuff
14:25:30 [jo]
... next week may not happen
14:26:03 [jo]
dka: let's see what happens ... and we'll ... see if the doc is in a shape to review on Thursday and if not then we'll discuss the following week
14:26:29 [jo]
kai: I have to wait on Manrique and then everyone waits on me
14:26:39 [jo]
... looking for any guidance from anyone on this
14:27:04 [jo]
Topic: CT Task Force Report
14:27:18 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
14:27:18 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
14:27:23 [jo]
scribe: achuter
14:27:28 [achuter]
scribe: Alan
14:27:37 [jo]
scribenick: achuter
14:28:08 [achuter]
Jo: Progress is slow
14:28:38 [achuter]
Jo: working toward new draft. Should be ready by next week. Last call WD in time for F2F.
14:29:20 [achuter]
Jo: Hope to be redy for approval of LCWD at F2F.
14:29:33 [achuter]
Jo: No further news about it today.
14:29:50 [achuter]
topic: BP2 document
14:29:54 [hgerlach]
sorry, have to leave for the next meeting, bye
14:29:57 [hgerlach]
hgerlach has left #bpwg
14:30:01 [Zakim]
-hgerlach
14:30:35 [jo]
issue-245?
14:30:35 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-245 -- ADC, A Wooden Stake and Some Garlic Needed -- OPEN
14:30:35 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/245
14:31:50 [achuter]
Long ago we decided not to define an advanced delivery context
14:32:20 [abel]
abel has joined #bpwg
14:32:21 [achuter]
Dan: The idea is that if a more advanced device is detected, then exploit its capabilities
14:32:40 [jeffs]
real-world ADC in common practice will slide naturally over time, and document should reflect that reality
14:32:53 [jo]
q+
14:32:58 [DKA]
ack jo
14:32:59 [achuter]
Dan: We made that decision, but for some reason the debate has been resurrected again
14:33:20 [achuter]
Dan: We made that decision, but for some reason the debate has been resurrected again
14:33:25 [jo]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0090.html
14:33:38 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ISSUE-245 ADC goes back in coffin and close ISSUE-245
14:33:58 [achuter]
Dan: Last time, in April, we didn't take a resolution because (Kai?) was not present.
14:34:30 [achuter]
s/Dan: Last/Jo: Last
14:35:00 [jeffs]
IMHO we are saying "find out at runtime what the client can do"
14:35:07 [achuter]
Jo: Think that an ADC definition would be out of date before the ink dry.
14:35:40 [achuter]
Jo: Better to think in terms of low-tier, medium and high-tier devices
14:36:21 [achuter]
Jo: Idea of ADC is counter-productive to the idea of taking advantage of all capabilities a device has to offer.
14:36:29 [Kai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0061.html
14:36:33 [jo]
[low tier mid tier and high tier being determined by the needs of the application]
14:36:58 [achuter]
Kai: Not wedded to the ADC concept, but think it is a mistake to kill it. So I will drop the idea now.
14:37:09 [jo]
[not by some arbitrary categorization that makes no reference to particular application needs]
14:38:07 [jo]
close ISSUE-245
14:38:43 [jo]
scribe: jo
14:38:50 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
14:38:50 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
14:38:53 [jo]
RESOLUTION: ISSUE-245 ADC goes back in coffin and close ISSUE-245
14:39:03 [jo]
scribe: achuter
14:39:35 [achuter]
issue-235?
14:39:35 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-235 -- Co Editor for Mobile Web Applications Best Practices (i.e. BP2) -- OPEN
14:39:35 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/235
14:40:34 [achuter]
close ISSUE-235
14:41:01 [achuter]
issue-246?
14:41:01 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-246 -- Name of BP2 / Relationship to BP1 -- OPEN
14:41:01 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/246
14:41:29 [achuter]
Jo: Has been discussed on list
14:41:53 [achuter]
Jo: Agreed that it would be "BP for mobile applications"
14:42:43 [jeffs]
+1
14:42:59 [jeffs]
"Mobile Web Applications"
14:43:01 [achuter]
s/mobile applications/mobile Web applications
14:43:50 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Name of BP2 remains formally speaking Best Practices for Mobile Web Applications and not BP2 because the latter would give the wrong impression about relationship with BP1 - but we will carry on calling it BP2 anyway
14:44:32 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Name of BP2 remains formally speaking Best Practices for Mobile Web Applications and not BP2 because the latter would give the wrong impression about relationship with BP1 - but we will carry on calling it BP2 anyway - and close ISSUE-246
14:45:47 [jo]
scribe: jo
14:45:54 [jo]
RESOLUTION: Name of BP2 remains formally speaking Best Practices for Mobile Web Applications and not BP2 because the latter would give the wrong impression about relationship with BP1 - but we will carry on calling it BP2 anyway - and close ISSUE-246
14:45:59 [jo]
scribe: achuter
14:46:17 [jo]
issue-247?
14:46:17 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-247 -- Proposed Topics for BP2 -- OPEN
14:46:17 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/247
14:47:56 [jo]
q+
14:48:06 [DKA]
ack jo
14:48:08 [jeffs]
I think we are talking about "location" and "identities" here
14:49:07 [edm]
I wonder if we would mention (and elaborate) on potential uses of DCCI to deal with dynamic properties/context...
14:50:40 [achuter]
ACTION: Jo to contact Tom Hume of Future Platforms about use of microformats
14:50:40 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-753 - Contact Tom Hume of Future Platforms about use of microformats [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-05-15].
14:50:41 [abel_]
abel_ has joined #bpwg
14:51:34 [nacho]
zakim, who is noisy?
14:51:45 [Zakim]
nacho, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (52%), adam (24%), jo (23%)
14:52:00 [adam]
zakim, mute me
14:52:00 [Zakim]
adam should now be muted
14:52:01 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
14:52:02 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
14:52:45 [adam]
It's on the HTML5 roadmap I think.
14:52:50 [adam]
zakim, unmute me
14:52:50 [Zakim]
adam should no longer be muted
14:54:04 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
14:54:04 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
14:54:05 [jeffs]
given this doc is in the mobile context, it seems important that we address location issues
14:54:24 [achuter]
scribe: achuter
14:55:19 [achuter]
Adam: Google Gears API HTML 5
14:56:00 [achuter]
Dan: Upcoming versions of browsers should have it as they are geared up for HTML 5
14:56:12 [achuter]
[about location]
14:56:30 [achuter]
ACTION: Adam to get back to teh group with text about location
14:56:30 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-754 - Get back to teh group with text about location [on Adam Connors - due 2008-05-15].
14:56:38 [DKA]
q?
14:56:51 [adam]
zakim, mute me
14:56:51 [Zakim]
adam should now be muted
14:56:56 [jeffs]
agree identity sep
14:57:22 [DKA]
zakim, unmute jeffs
14:57:23 [Zakim]
jeffs was not muted, DKA
14:58:04 [achuter]
Jeffs: Need to address identity and location in this document
14:58:31 [nacho_]
nacho_ has joined #bpwg
14:59:34 [achuter]
Dan: concerened about the scope of the document, as these are such complex issues
14:59:45 [jeffs]
issue would be my suggestion
15:00:04 [achuter]
s/concerened/concerned
15:00:12 [jo]
Regrets: Rob, Martin, SeanP
15:00:37 [achuter]
Ed: Suggest dynamic properties. Supported in common browser.
15:00:42 [jo]
q+ to ask whether this is current good practice?
15:01:20 [achuter]
Jo: If there are no other implementations can not be best practice.
15:01:27 [achuter]
Ed: There is another
15:01:41 [abel]
abel has joined #bpwg
15:03:19 [Kai]
Are we loosening the meaning of "best practice"?
15:03:50 [DKA]
q?
15:03:56 [DKA]
ack jo
15:03:57 [Zakim]
jo, you wanted to ask whether this is current good practice?
15:04:06 [adam]
zakim, unmute me
15:04:06 [Zakim]
adam should no longer be muted
15:04:10 [adam]
q+
15:04:15 [DKA]
ack adam
15:06:53 [abel]
abel has left #bpwg
15:07:08 [adam]
zakim, unmute me
15:07:09 [Zakim]
adam was not muted, adam
15:07:35 [achuter]
Dan: would like to wait until Bryan is here
15:07:59 [jo]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:08:17 [achuter]
Adam: Persistent storage. What happens when installing.
15:08:43 [achuter]
Adam: Cases where content is HTML+CSS but still has install step.
15:09:02 [achuter]
Adam: Looks like Bryan has removed section on declaring install size.
15:09:28 [jeffs]
given widgets are based on the same techs (html/css/javascript-based) as browser-based thingies and operate in same context (mobile), seems to me they fit here
15:10:24 [achuter]
Dan: While we discussed widgets in Seoul, but decided there were too many platforms to be able to write BPs
15:10:38 [achuter]
Dan: But can cover use of individual technologies.
15:11:03 [achuter]
Dan: Can talk about it when Bryan is back, maybe next week.
15:11:16 [jo]
chair: DKA
15:11:22 [edm]
logistics for next f2f?
15:11:50 [jo]
Topic: Logisitics for F2F
15:12:13 [Zakim]
-jeffs
15:12:45 [Kai]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Meetings/Sophia/logistics.html
15:13:52 [achuter]
Dan: Logisitcs for next F2F
15:14:16 [achuter]
Dan: Fran├žois is putting together an email with logistics
15:15:19 [achuter]
Dan: Two and half days or three?
15:16:16 [Zakim]
-DKA
15:16:18 [Zakim]
-Kai_Dietrich
15:16:18 [Zakim]
-adam
15:16:22 [Zakim]
-jo
15:16:23 [Zakim]
-Scott
15:16:23 [Zakim]
-Ed_Mitukiewicz
15:16:27 [Zakim]
-manrique
15:16:28 [Zakim]
-achuter
15:16:29 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:16:29 [DKA]
trackbot-ng, make log minutes something whatever
15:16:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were DKA, Scott, hgerlach, jeffs, adam, manrique, achuter, jo, miguel, nacho, abel, Ed_Mitukiewicz, Kai_Dietrich
15:16:33 [Scott]
bye
15:16:40 [nacho_]
bye everyone
15:16:46 [jo]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:16:53 [Scott]
Scott has left #bpwg
15:16:53 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:16:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:19:06 [nacho_]
nacho_ has left #bpwg
17:18:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #bpwg