IRC log of rif on 2008-05-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:34:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:34:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:35:09 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, this will be rif
14:35:09 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisWelty; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
14:35:18 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, this will be rif
14:35:18 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisWelty; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
14:35:18 [ChrisWelty]
Meeting: RIF Telecon
14:35:31 [ChrisWelty]
Meeting: RIF Telecon May 6, 2008
14:35:40 [ChrisWelty]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:35:56 [ChrisWelty]
14:36:11 [ChrisWelty]
ChrisWelty has changed the topic to: 6 May RIF Telecon Agenda
14:36:28 [ChrisWelty]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisWelty
14:36:39 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ Admin
14:36:46 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ F2F10
14:36:50 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ Action Review
14:36:56 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ Liason
14:37:09 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ Issue 52,53,54
14:37:15 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ Issue 34
14:37:21 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ DTB
14:37:25 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ AOB
14:37:43 [ChrisWelty]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:52:18 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:57:06 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
14:58:38 [csma]
list agenda
14:59:32 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:00:07 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:14 [Zakim]
15:00:16 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:00:52 [AdrianP]
Hi, I'm the first participant in the conference?
15:00:56 [Zakim]
15:01:05 [ChrisWelty]
be right there, adrian
15:01:05 [sandro]
Yes, Adrian
15:01:07 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:15 [Zakim]
15:01:47 [Zakim]
15:02:01 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:01 [Zakim]
+ChrisWelty; got it
15:02:02 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:02:10 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, who is on the phone?"
15:02:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone?"', ChrisWelty
15:02:12 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AdrianP, Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisWelty
15:02:19 [Zakim]
15:02:22 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:27 [Zakim]
15:02:32 [csma]
zakim, ??P12 is me
15:02:33 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:02:35 [Zakim]
15:02:43 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:02:44 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:02:47 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:02:47 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:02:55 [Zakim]
15:03:12 [csma]
15:03:20 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
15:03:20 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
15:03:44 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:03:47 [Zakim]
15:03:52 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:53 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:30 [josb]
15:04:51 [josb]
he is
15:05:48 [ChrisWelty]
Scribe: mdean
15:05:56 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, take up item 1
15:05:56 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisWelty]
15:06:20 [ChrisWelty]
15:06:33 [mdean]
minutes approved
15:06:54 [mdean]
csma: 2 comments from Dan Connolly on comment list
15:07:27 [Zakim]
15:07:29 [csma]
15:07:40 [mdean]
Sandro: discuss process in meeting - likely to get more comments soon
15:08:16 [mdean]
Chris: probably assign someone for response, rather than just on Wiki page
15:08:39 [mdean]
csma: IRI comment pretty close to email list discussion
15:09:13 [mdean]
csma: second comment is question for Michael
15:09:22 [mdean]
Chris: add to end of agenda
15:09:23 [ChrisWelty]
agenda+ public comments
15:09:26 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, next item
15:09:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "F2F10" taken up [from ChrisWelty]
15:10:18 [sandro]
15:10:19 [mdean]
15 people have answered, 12 are coming
15:10:33 [mdean]
closest hotel is full
15:10:53 [mdean]
bed and breakfast has space
15:11:22 [mdean]
Axel only on IRC today due to conflicting meeting
15:11:24 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, next item
15:11:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisWelty]
15:11:34 [mdean]
please fill out form
15:14:31 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:14:31 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:14:42 [Harold]
About Sandro's action:
15:16:14 [csma]
all actions continued except 471, which is closed
15:16:27 [MichaelKifer]
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15:17:28 [csma]
ACTION-459: closed
15:17:46 [AdrianP]
we might discuss it together with the UCR review
15:18:23 [Zakim]
15:18:38 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:18:38 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:18:45 [csma]
ACTION-437: closed
15:20:04 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, next item
15:20:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisWelty]
15:20:05 [csma]
ACTION-253: closed
15:20:32 [AdrianP]
nothing specific. there is currently a XBRL conference
15:20:34 [AdrianP]
15:20:40 [mdean]
no news from OWL
15:20:51 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, next item
15:20:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, ChrisWelty
15:20:57 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, close item 4
15:20:57 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Liason, closed
15:20:58 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:20:58 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, next item
15:20:59 [Zakim]
5. Issue 52,53,54 [from ChrisWelty]
15:21:00 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Issue 52,53,54" taken up [from ChrisWelty]
15:21:10 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:21:10 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:21:13 [ChrisWelty]
15:21:48 [mdean]
3 editor's notes in SWC
15:22:20 [mdean]
now a proposal on table
15:22:38 [mdean]
Axel: takes care of 52 and 53
15:22:47 [mdean]
15:23:03 [sandro]
15:23:15 [mdean]
Axel to redial due to noise
15:23:21 [sandro]
15:23:26 [Zakim]
15:23:48 [mdean]
15:23:53 [Zakim]
15:25:00 [mdean]
Jos: notion of context comes from BLD document - this specifies specific contexts
15:25:15 [mdean]
Sandro: email thread from last night - open issues
15:25:33 [mdean]
Sandro: prefer "language" over "context"
15:25:56 [mdean]
... or "format"
15:26:18 [sandro]
or "formalism"
15:26:38 [mdean]
Jos: agree - took "context" from BLD - second argument to import statement
15:26:42 [Harold]
Import ::= 'Import' '(' IRI CONTEXT? ')'
15:26:44 [josb]
15:27:22 [mdean]
Jos: definition of import directives
15:27:33 [Harold]
"The context specifies what kind of entity is being imported and under what semantics (for instance, the various RDF entailment regimes)."
15:27:34 [sandro]
Sandro: So I'm proposing that this parameter, "language", be understood to be a default language identifier to use in case the language is not sufficiently self-identifying.
15:28:28 [sandro]
Jos: I'm okay with that
15:28:32 [mdean]
Chris: consistency with current OWL WG?
15:28:36 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:36 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:28:40 [mdean]
Sandro: too early to say
15:28:40 [sandro]
Chris: I am too -- how does it relate to what OWL-WG uses?
15:29:02 [mdean]
Michael: OWL uses profile
15:29:11 [sandro]
mkider: OWL uses "Profile"
15:29:22 [sandro]
Sandro,Jos,Harold: Okay
15:29:25 [mdean]
consensus on "profile"
15:29:42 [mdean]
resolution not needed
15:30:06 [mdean]
15:30:39 [mdean]
Sandro: could call it default profile, to indicate that it doesn't override
15:31:13 [mdean]
Michael: other cases: semantics, data types, etc.
15:31:46 [Harold]
Re Import(t c): "The constant t indicates the address of another rule set to be imported and c is called the context of import."
15:32:04 [sandro]
15:32:15 [Harold]
15:33:11 [mdean]
Chris: document takes precedence if it specifies a profile
15:34:44 [mdean]
... but could imagine various precedence strategies
15:35:07 [mdean]
mkifer: should be an error
15:35:17 [mdean]
Sandro: ok with error
15:36:01 [mdean]
Sandro: now OK with profile given discussion
15:37:38 [sandro]
ACTION: Harold to change "context" to "profile" in BLD and propose an XML syntax
15:37:39 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-472 - Change \"context\" to \"profile\" in BLD and propose an XML syntax [on Harold Boley - due 2008-05-13].
15:37:52 [sandro]
(and in FLD)
15:38:39 [mdean]
Sandro: next issue - URIs for profiles
15:38:59 [mdean]
... probably makes sense to create new URIs linked to spec
15:39:03 [mdean]
Jos: agree
15:39:31 [sandro]
Sandro: let's make up new IRIs, like
15:39:44 [sandro]
Sandro: let's make up new IRIs, like
15:39:56 [Hassan]
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15:39:56 [Zakim]
15:40:02 [sandro]
Chris: just for the ones mentioned in this document
15:40:05 [sandro]
Sandro: right.
15:40:25 [mdean]
mkifer: is profile a constant?
15:40:34 [mdean]
... why do we need to specify this?
15:41:09 [mdean]
Sandro: about 7 enumerated in Jos' document
15:41:36 [Zakim]
15:41:47 [mdean]
Chris: will these be dereferenceable?
15:41:58 [sandro]
Chris: this is just for Jos' document -- we don't need to talk about these in general.
15:41:59 [mdean]
Sandro: in principle yes
15:42:07 [Zakim]
15:42:14 [mdean]
... great if someone is motivated to put statements there
15:42:15 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:42:15 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:42:17 [sandro]
Chris: Just special IRIs that some implementations know. When you see this IRI, use this form of interpretation.
15:42:21 [sandro]
Sandro: Yes.
15:42:44 [sandro]
ACTION: Jos to pick IRIs for profiles
15:42:44 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos
15:42:44 [trackbot-ng]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
15:42:54 [sandro]
ACTION: jdebruij2 to pick IRIs for profiles
15:42:54 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-473 - Pick IRIs for profiles [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-05-13].
15:43:54 [mdean]
Jos: what about RDF graphs with different profiles - pick highest?
15:44:14 [mdean]
Sandro: what about transitive imports?
15:45:00 [mdean]
Jos: pick highest, but haven't thought about transitivity - not feasible to use multiple profiles
15:45:14 [mdean]
Sandro: could make it an error or undefined
15:45:49 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
15:45:58 [mdean]
... would like open issue on importing things with different profiles
15:46:02 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:46:16 [mdean]
... OK with last call draft as is
15:46:44 [sandro]
ACTION: jdebruij2 to open a non-CP issue on importing with mixed profiles
15:46:44 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-474 - Open a non-CP issue on importing with mixed profiles [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-05-13].
15:47:05 [mdean]
Jos: generic profiles: RDF vs OWL
15:47:23 [mdean]
... could be combined - no formal distinction
15:47:56 [mdean]
... don't require specification of a profile
15:48:32 [mdean]
... imports currently defaults to RIF ruleset
15:48:46 [mdean]
Sandro: can distinguish based on RIF MIME type
15:48:51 [mdean]
... also need to work on that
15:49:15 [sandro]
ACTION: Sandro to look into mime type registration for RIF
15:49:15 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-475 - Look into mime type registration for RIF [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-05-13].
15:49:39 [sandro]
Sandro: How about make Profile optional, and if omitted use mime-type.
15:51:02 [mdean]
Jos: this is a BLD issue
15:51:07 [sandro]
Chris: So -- no generics, profile is optional, and up to spec how to handle this if document isn't self-identified.
15:51:09 [GaryHallmark]
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15:51:15 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:51:15 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:51:18 [sandro]
Jos: Michael, harold?
15:51:31 [csma]
15:53:09 [conan]
conan has joined #rif
15:53:34 [mdean]
mdean: file: IRI doesn't have a MIME type
15:54:03 [Zakim]
15:54:45 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:54:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AdrianP (muted), Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisWelty, csma (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, MichaelKifer, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted),
15:54:48 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark, Mark_Proctor
15:54:53 [mdean]
Sandro: can live with second argument of "RDF" but this seems silly
15:55:37 [mdean]
Sandro: file: IRI library may have file extension mappings to MIME types
15:55:57 [csma]
15:56:10 [csma]
ack csma
15:56:14 [sandro]
Sandro: I can live with second-parameter-required for non-RIF imports.
15:57:19 [sandro]
Sandro: I think that works for XML, OO style and not.
15:57:26 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:57:26 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:58:34 [mdean]
resolution not required since things stay the same
15:58:44 [mdean]
wait until next week to close Issue 52
15:58:55 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:58:55 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:58:56 [sandro]
postponing closing issue-52 until we can check over the documents with these edits.
15:59:40 [mdean]
josb: issue 53 is resolved
16:00:16 [mdean]
Sandro: would like review by Bijan, who's thinking about annotations in OWL
16:01:07 [mdean]
Chris: seems to account for where OWL is going as well as providing backward compatibility
16:01:22 [sandro]
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-53 as in current rdf-owl text
16:01:56 [csma]
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-53 as in current rdf-owl text
16:02:00 [sandro]
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-53 as in current
16:02:05 [sandro]
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-53 as in current
16:02:16 [mdean]
issue 54
16:02:34 [mdean]
Jos: contact OWL DL people as soon as possible
16:03:01 [mdean]
... syntactic restriction on use of variables in RIF rules
16:04:09 [Harold]
I guess we are talking about a subdialect of BLD, which fulfills Safeness Restrictions?
16:04:09 [sandro]
ACTION: jdebruij2 to propose solution to ISSUE-54 that he's happy with and OWL-RIF TF is happy with
16:04:10 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-476 - Propose solution to ISSUE-54 that he's happy with and OWL-RIF TF is happy with [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-05-13].
16:04:12 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, next item
16:04:12 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Issue 34" taken up [from ChrisWelty]
16:06:05 [sandro]
16:07:47 [mdean]
Sandro: leaning toward option 4
16:08:03 [josb]
16:08:05 [csma]
16:08:20 [csma]
16:08:23 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:08:23 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:08:35 [mdean]
Chris: first option corresponds to "out-of-band agreement"
16:09:04 [sandro]
16:09:31 [csma]
What I have in mind when I say "out-of-band agreement, I mean that the requirement must be mentioned in the RIF doc
16:09:42 [mdean]
... shouldn't require ignoring of datatypes not in spec
16:09:51 [sandro]
kifer: how about something between 1 and 2 ---- two systems may agree on some extra datatypes, if they see an unrecognized datatype, then they issue an error.
16:09:59 [mdean]
mkifer: combination of 1 and 2?
16:10:02 [sandro]
16:10:05 [mdean]
Sandro: might work
16:10:06 [sandro]
ack josb
16:10:32 [sandro]
jos: I prefer option 2 -- you reject if you cannot deal with the datatypes that are there.
16:11:03 [Harold]
16:11:15 [sandro]
kifer: I think that's the same as I'm saying. You assume systems can support official types plus some extra types, and you reject only if it's in neither.
16:11:21 [mdean]
mkifer: agree - reject datatypes that you don't support
16:11:42 [sandro]
16:11:48 [sandro]
ack csma
16:11:50 [csma]
ack csma
16:12:01 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:12:01 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:12:07 [sandro]
q+ to talk about use case where a big publisher wants to include a new data type
16:12:25 [mdean]
csma: option 1 is not quite out-of-band agreement
16:12:29 [sandro]
csma: allow a doc to make ref to non-std datatypes; an impl should be able to use the dt's they know.
16:13:18 [sandro]
csma: they should be required to throw an error/warning if they don't recognize the datatype, and use it if they do. only issue is how to make sure no ambiguity. maybe RIF docs have to list their non-std datatypes.
16:13:21 [sandro]
16:14:01 [sandro]
csma: all the datatypes in RIF document must be either std or unambiguously named; and any implement that knows the DT can use it, and if you don't you must warn/error.
16:14:14 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:14:14 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:14:17 [sandro]
jos: yes
16:14:20 [sandro]
mkifer: yes
16:14:28 [sandro]
ack Harold
16:14:34 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:14:34 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:14:50 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:14:50 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:14:52 [josb]
OWL says: "If an input document uses datatypes that are not supported by the datatype map of an OWL consistency checker then it MAY report a warning. "
16:14:52 [mdean]
Harold: option 4 subsumes 1 and 2
16:15:05 [sandro]
Harold: I would hope we could go for option 4, it subsumes 1 and 2 -- the xform could be identify, or refine error, etc. It's nice an general. It's at the heart of what RIF is about.
16:15:08 [josb]
16:15:10 [mdean]
... heart of RIF as interoperability mechanism
16:15:26 [mdean]
Chris: how much work needs to be done to include this?
16:15:39 [sandro]
Harold: it could be left open, in an external sense.
16:15:49 [sandro]
ack sandro
16:15:49 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to talk about use case where a big publisher wants to include a new data type
16:16:40 [csma]
q+ to react to you cant add a new data type
16:17:01 [mdean]
Sandro: compelling use case for 4 is big web publishers - can't introduce new datatype until consumers all implement - chicken and egg precludes evolution
16:17:12 [Harold]
s/in an external sense/in the sense of our externals/
16:17:28 [mdean]
... but don't see a solution by the end of May
16:17:51 [mdean]
... prefer to leave the door open for programmable fallback
16:17:59 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:17:59 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:18:21 [mdean]
mkifer: which document(s) will specify this?
16:19:19 [Harold]
Sandro, is XTAN at all related to GRDDL?
16:19:33 [sandro]
Sandro: I wish XTAN were done ahead of time, but it's not, so the question is how to leave the door open for them.
16:19:39 [mdean]
Sandro: XTAN in separate REC-track document used by RIF but separate
16:21:03 [mdean]
Sandro: need to finish enough for people to build against BLD - shouldn't require major changes to implementations
16:22:11 [csma]
16:22:57 [Harold]
I think XTAN can also be used for transformations that return a normal form.
16:23:03 [josb]
well, people do use xsd:date in OWL, I think
16:24:18 [mdean]
mkifer: need to say something about compliance, beyond data types
16:25:13 [josb]
uses xsd:float:
16:25:33 [mdean]
... strawman compliance statements that can later be changed
16:26:04 [sandro]
Chris: let's leave compliance clause until after we have implementaiton experience
16:26:05 [Harold]
What about at least an Editor's note about compliance?
16:26:16 [mdean]
Chris: no way to know what compliance means for BLD
16:26:17 [sandro]
kifer: let's provide some straw man, at least.
16:27:03 [csma]
you mean, later than LC?
16:27:10 [mdean]
Sandro: can procedurally wait until CR
16:27:43 [mdean]
mkifer: discussion a year ago
16:28:15 [Harold]
What will happen regarding answering public comments, gathering errata, etc. between RIF phase 1 and phase 2?
16:28:23 [mdean]
... should take up seriously or not, not just for datatypes
16:28:35 [csma]
+1 to michael
16:28:59 [mdean]
Chris: much clearer idea of what BLD is than we had a year ago, but experience still limited
16:29:00 [sandro]
ACTION: kifer to draft some text on compliance
16:29:00 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-477 - Draft some text on compliance [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-05-13].
16:29:24 [Harold]
What will happen with happen with the OWL-RIF Task Force after May 31?
16:29:33 [csma]
16:29:41 [Zakim]
16:29:48 [Zakim]
16:29:48 [mdean]
16:29:51 [Zakim]
16:29:52 [Harold]
s/will happen with happen/will happen/
16:29:53 [Zakim]
16:29:55 [Zakim]
16:29:55 [Zakim]
16:29:56 [Zakim]
16:30:00 [Zakim]
16:30:02 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:30:02 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:30:09 [sandro]
zakim, list attendees
16:30:09 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AdrianP, Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisWelty, csma, josb, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, GaryHallmark, Harold, MichaelKifer, Hassan_Ait-Kaci,
16:30:13 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark, Mark_Proctor
16:30:15 [csma]
rssagent, make log public
16:30:17 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:30:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
16:30:37 [Zakim]
16:32:55 [Zakim]
16:32:56 [Zakim]
16:32:58 [Zakim]
16:33:07 [Zakim]
16:33:08 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:33:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were AdrianP, Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisWelty, csma, josb, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, GaryHallmark, Harold, MichaelKifer, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Gary_Hallmark,
16:33:11 [Zakim]
... Mark_Proctor
16:58:19 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:58:19 [Zakim]
apparently SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended, csma
16:58:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markproctor, GaryHallmark, MichaelKifer, LeoraMorgenstern, mdean, csma, Harold, RRSAgent, sandro, trackbot-ng, Zakim
16:58:37 [csma]
csma has left #rif
17:43:59 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
17:44:13 [MichaelKifer]
17:44:23 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif