17:33:13 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:33:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/01-ua-irc 17:33:23 jim, i had hoped to have some prose for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 of Access module, but had to fight fires elsewhere all morning 17:33:30 rrsagent, set logs public 17:34:34 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0070.html 17:34:48 Title: UAWG Telecon 17:34:55 Chair: Jim Allan 17:35:06 Scribe: Jan 17:51:58 Jan has joined #ua 17:52:22 Scribe: Jan 17:57:20 jeanne has joined #ua 17:58:45 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:58:52 +[IPcaller] 17:59:05 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:59:05 +Jan; got it 18:00:17 +Gregory_Rosmaita 18:00:28 zakim, code? 18:00:28 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy 18:00:59 +Judy 18:01:21 +Cantor 18:01:35 +AllanJ 18:02:02 zakim, Judy has Jeanne 18:02:02 +Jeanne; got it 18:02:45 +Sean 18:02:57 zakim, who is here? 18:02:57 On the phone I see Jan, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Cantor, AllanJ, Sean 18:02:58 Judy has Jeanne 18:02:59 On IRC I see jeanne, Jan, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, judy, GJR 18:03:43 JB: Jeanne Spellman joining us... 18:04:01 JB: Will be new staff contact with UAWG and AUWG... 18:04:10 JB: She's just starting 18:04:20 JB: Thanks to JR 18:04:25 we LUV jan! but welcome jeanne! 18:04:44 +DeanHudson 18:05:39 JS: Working as independent accessibility consultant for 7 years 18:05:50 JS: Really thrilled to be here...with UAWG 18:06:02 +[Microsoft] 18:06:03 JS: Working for years with browsers 18:06:23 zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord 18:06:23 +KFord; got it 18:06:32 AC: Introduces self 18:07:36 KF: Introduces self....test lead on IE team and involved with accessibility 18:08:12 SH: Microsoft...work in Accessibility Incubation Lab 18:08:52 DH: From Apple...work on voiceover-QA engineer...deal with accessibility for MacOS 18:09:16 GR: Member of PF, HTML, XHTML 18:09:41 JB: Introduces self 18:10:01 Topic: 1. XHTML Access module - keyboard access, accesskey, event firing 18:10:19 JA: I posted something a bit late to group 18:10:23 KFord has joined #ua 18:10:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0074.html 18:10:40 JA: these are some of my comments to GRs issues 18:10:43 GJR post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0068.html 18:11:11 JA: Last week I took action to summarize topic... 18:12:04 JA: Access: I think of in HTML we accesskey in XHTML we have an element that key is then attached to and element decides what to do when key pressed 18:12:11 Alan has joined #ua 18:12:22 JA: Activate has values yes,no...no is default 18:12:33 JA: "Activate" attribute 18:12:57 JA: Also user settings take precedence 18:13:31 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/ 18:13:48 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/#sec_3.1.1. 18:13:54 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/#sec_3.1.2. 18:14:03 There was discussion that a mouse user explicitly knows what is being 18:14:04 activated - that is, they must place the mouse on the element to be 18:14:06 activated and THEN explicitly click a button. A mouse user can infer from 18:14:07 contextual information/content near the element what the activation of the 18:14:09 element may do. If @activate is set to 'yes' a user using the 'access' 18:14:10 keybinding has limited contextual information other than the @title of the 18:14:12 'access' element to infer the function, because upon focusing on the element 18:14:13 it is immediately fired. If @activate is set to 'no' then the focus is moved 18:14:15 to the appropriate element and the user is free to explore context if there 18:14:16 is any doubt as to actual function. 18:14:30 q+ 18:14:31 JB: What should we focus on in this discussion? 18:14:46 JA: I listed out relevant UA checkpoints 18:15:11 JA: One concern is that in UAAG2 we have requirement to show all 18:15:37 JA: So if you come across element you can ask what handlers are 18:15:56 JA: But this seems of dubious use if you don't know what event handler will do 18:16:02 ack me 18:16:06 will a pointer-driven query of an object for which multiple events have been defined, be interpreted as activate="yes" for all events, or is there something that needs to be stated explicitly about UA and/or user control over pointer device interaction with object for which access has been set? 18:16:42 GR: Really need to answer this open issue. 18:17:05 GR: With ACCESS you can have multiple events on a single object 18:17:23 GR: If one of them is set to activate... 18:18:04 GR: I have an action to take Jim's mapping back to XHTML 18:18:09 SMIL2 cutting-room floor text: "The user agent must provide a means of identifying the [shortcuts] that can be used in a [page]. This may be accomplished in different ways by different implementations, for example through direct interaction with the application or via the user's guide. The [access key] requested by the author might not be made available by the player (for example it may not exist on the device used, or it may be used by the player itself). Therefor 18:18:26 GR: Plus a bit of text from Al (above) 18:18:48 GR: THye are glad there is a normative reference they can point to 18:19:10 GR: Concern of Jim's about poiinter is still most outstanding 18:19:43 GR: We do need to balance keyboard user's range of action with the keyboard user's 18:20:16 KF: So today no user agent can put all mouse things on hold and then step through them. 18:20:37 KF: So if I put mouse a control with 5 events? I can separately choose them? 18:21:02 AC: This is something any kind of application would be relevant to...eg OS 18:21:12 KF: Is in general an OS behaviour 18:21:25 KF: Technically possible for UA to change...not easy 18:21:57 AC: Spirit of idea of helping mouse user appeals to me 18:22:22 KF: I think there is some point to what you say...from implementation standpoint this is complicate to make usabel 18:22:51 GR: That's why I though a third state-inspect- would work, but was rejected 18:24:05 need a mouse fucntional access specification as there are keyboard functional access specifications, but for now we need to implement it correctly via UAAG 2.0 18:24:20 JR: things fire in a linear way, e.g. 2 handlers mousedown and mouse up but fires them in different orders may cause errors 18:24:21 KF: If people already confused about click vs. double click....much harder to imagine 18:24:48 GR: Meta problem...no bouncekeys, sticky keys etc. for mouse 18:25:06 KF: We can slowthings down etc 18:25:26 AC: In a sense a mouseover....is a prallel to inspect 18:25:45 KF: From user perspective..imagine menu sliders out on mouseover 18:26:06 KF: I'm in my don't activate mode... 18:26:14 KF: Mouse over menu... 18:26:24 KF: Tells me there is a mouseover... 18:26:30 KF: I choose it etc 18:26:42 GR: Lot's of mouse developer resistance... 18:26:59 GR: Mouseover vs. onfocus event.... 18:27:16 GR: Mouseover might say month...month... 18:27:46 GR: THey say do I want to see everything...I say ARIA politeness could be the filter 18:28:49 AC: Idea of not triggering event....should hovering or putting focus...automatically put focus 18:29:07 JA: Except access module specifically concerned about keyboard not mouse 18:29:27 JA: So are saying there is something in mouse that we want keyboard to be able to do 18:30:40 GR: Access module aimed at keyboards but can't ignore implications for pointer. 18:30:47 GR: Must work together 18:31:10 GR: Can't wait for mouse module since there won't bwe one - they are custom or by convention 18:31:39 GR: Don't want to advis a solution that suddenly cuts of a majority of navigation on web. 18:32:11 JA: So can do different mouse things ...but less keyboard things 18:32:26 GR: In XHTML events 18:32:28 OedipusWrecked has joined #ua 18:32:57 GR: Events are onfocus and onactivate 18:33:59 JA: Other pointer.... 18:35:21 JA: 11.2, 11.3, 11.4 in UAAG1 about binding, rebindings 18:35:42 JA: But they apply to UI, not content 18:35:54 JA: So we address that in UAAG2 18:36:20 GR: Mitigating thing is that access module is by its nature about content 18:37:16 GR: This is all because accesskey was so underspecified 18:38:18 JA: So I've made a proposal that users be able to override author bindings 18:38:46 JA: Plus if no bindings provided, UA must add them as long as they don't conflict 18:39:43 SMIL2 cutting-room floor text: "The user agent must provide a means of identifying the [shortcuts] that can be used in a [page]. This may be accomplished in different ways by different implementations, for example through direct interaction with the application or via the user's guide. The [access key] requested by the author might not be made available by the player (for example it may not exist on the device used, or it may be used by the player itself 18:40:38 AC: When talking about user changeable bindings...if users permitted to change keybindings, do we want to talk about changing other things like accesskeys for menus 18:40:55 GR: Access module is for content 18:41:16 GR: We in UAAG will, but for access module its out of scope 18:41:35 JA: Also we have chckpoints to cover some of those 18:42:25 4.1.10 is the success criteria 18:42:45 JA: My message includes a few proposals 18:43:00 GR: I'm going to try to send a proposal too 18:43:11 JA: Deadline? 18:43:30 GR: Hope to have last call at next meeting 18:43:57 GR: But if we could have something to them by the end of the weekend...they could consider it 18:44:07 JB: What turnaround? 18:44:14 GR: Sunday night 18:44:31 GR: Would give 48 hours for people to think about it 18:45:13 GR: They have said they will listen to us 18:45:21 GR: But needs to get done 18:45:57 JA: Do you need help in call? 18:46:02 GR: I should be ok? 18:47:51 JB: So what message are you going to be making? 18:48:28 GR: 3.1.1, 3.1.2 I'm hoping to get them up for tomorrow for review by this group 18:48:55 JB: Sounds like timing is too close 18:49:52 KF: Would prefer if you propose on list, we can discuss then we can deice next Thursday 18:50:06 JB: So PF not sending anything 18:50:13 GR: Yes 18:50:28 GR: Yes they are not sending anything 18:51:03 JB: So GR will send proposal by tomorrow...then decision next Thursday 18:52:04 JB: GR please also log it on wai-liaison 18:52:28 wai-liaison@w3.org 18:52:42 JA: OK we have 10mins 18:53:00 Topic: 2. Printing in a user agent 18:53:15 JA: This was brought up and discussed on list 18:53:32 JA: I've had issues plus I've surveyed people and it is a major concern 18:53:44 [FYI] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/wai-liaison/ (note member confidential 18:54:23 JA: made proposal 18:54:30 topic: UA printing 18:54:33 SC: 3.11.X Print Scale: If a print from viewport feature is provided, the user has the option of printing using the viewport's scale settings such that the user agent should attempt to *passively reflow* the content into the horizontal dimensions of paper. If passive reflow is not possible, more than one sheet of paper will be required horizontally. 18:55:52 JR: - by *passively reflow* I mean the kind of reflow that happens when you resize a window manually. 18:55:53 - do any languages favour horizontal over vertical paper flows? 18:56:46 JA: Any comments? 18:56:49 DH: Makes sense 18:56:54 KF: Kind of makes sense 18:57:01 AC: Need to think it through 18:57:48 [FYI] http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/Print/ 18:57:49 JR: 2 sheet horizontal example. text is easily reflowed. but image can't be reflowed 18:58:18 ...if the image is too large then should be printed across mulitple pages 18:58:58 GRG: large table example, printing on multiple pages 18:59:26 AC: Up to user to figure out how pages fit togeter 18:59:44 JA: Currently just the left most page gets printed 18:59:58 KF: On surface seems reasonable 19:00:08 KF: But will need to talk to printing people 19:00:39 GR: Support success criteria but wary about removing "paper" from defintiion because of screen viewing problems\ 19:01:33 JR: I agree, but in UAAG if replace viewport with paper, they no sense. 19:01:46 GRG: propose use "paged media" 19:02:01 GR: Use Paged media instead of peices of paper 19:02:28 JA: OK for next week, major issue is ACCESS module and come to decision 19:02:43 paged media info in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0066.html 19:03:06 JA: And we will also need to figure out a better focus for our meetings 19:03:22 KF: regrets next week 19:03:23 KF: Unfortunately I have to give regrets fo rhte next xall 19:03:43 GR: THanks for comments on access module 19:03:48 -KFord 19:03:50 -DeanHudson 19:03:50 -Gregory_Rosmaita 19:03:51 -Cantor 19:03:54 -Sean 19:04:09 kelly - 1 973 746 1192 19:05:05 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:05:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/01-ua-minutes.html Jan 19:05:12 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:05:17 Zakim, bye 19:05:17 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jan, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cantor, AllanJ, Jeanne, Sean, DeanHudson, KFord 19:05:17 Zakim has left #ua 19:05:26 RRSAgent, bye 19:05:26 I see no action items