16:54:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:54:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/30-owl-irc
16:56:19 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
16:57:03 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
16:57:03 <Zakim> sorry, IanH, I don't know what conference this is
16:57:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten, trackbot-ng, sandro, ewallace
16:57:39 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
16:58:02 <bcuencagrau> bcuencagrau has joined #owl
16:58:24 <IanH> zakim, this is OWL
16:58:24 <Zakim> ok, IanH; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
16:58:32 <bmotik> Zakim, who is on call?
16:58:32 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, bmotik.
16:58:32 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
16:58:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, ??P8
16:58:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten, trackbot-ng, sandro, ewallace
16:58:48 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P8 is me
16:58:48 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
16:58:51 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:58:51 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
16:59:00 <Zakim> +??P10
16:59:01 <Zakim> +MartinD
16:59:01 <Zakim> +pfps
16:59:05 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P8 is me
16:59:05 <Zakim> I already had ??P8 as bmotik, bcuencagrau
16:59:11 <MartinD> zakim, mute me
16:59:11 <Zakim> MartinD should now be muted
16:59:15 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P10 is me
16:59:15 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
16:59:26 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
16:59:26 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
16:59:49 <Zakim> +Carsten
16:59:54 <uli> uli has joined #owl
16:59:56 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
17:00:03 <Zakim> +??P14
17:00:41 <Zakim> +??P15
17:00:48 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
17:00:54 <uli> zakim, ??15 is me
17:00:54 <Zakim> sorry, uli, I do not recognize a party named '??15'
17:01:00 <Zakim> +Alan
17:01:03 <uli> zakim, ??P15 is me
17:01:03 <Zakim> +uli; got it
17:01:06 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, ??P14 is me
17:01:06 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it
17:01:23 <Carsten> Can somebody (who knows how) pls make me the scribe?
17:01:25 <Zakim> +??P18
17:01:27 <JeremyCarroll> q-
17:01:34 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
17:01:35 <alanr> q?
17:01:37 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #owl
17:01:42 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:01:42 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:01:46 <IanH> q?
17:01:50 <Ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:01:50 <Zakim> ok, Ivan; the call is being made
17:01:52 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:01:52 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:01:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), MartinD (muted), pfps (muted), Carsten, JeremyCarroll, uli (muted), Alan, ??P18, Ivan (muted)
17:01:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK, Achille, Zhe, msmith, uli, bcuencagrau, bmotik, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten, trackbot-ng, sandro,
17:01:58 <Zakim> ... ewallace
17:02:05 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:02:08 <Ratnesh> zakim, ??P18 is me
17:02:08 <Zakim> +Ratnesh; got it
17:02:15 <Carsten> what kind of message is that?
17:02:18 <Achille> Zakim. IBM is Achille
17:02:19 <Carsten> "excellent" :)
17:02:23 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:02:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), MartinD (muted), pfps (muted), Carsten, JeremyCarroll, uli (muted), Alan, Ratnesh, Ivan, [IBM]
17:02:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK, Achille, Zhe, msmith, uli, bcuencagrau, bmotik, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten, trackbot-ng, sandro,
17:02:28 <Zakim> ... ewallace
17:02:30 <Ivan> zakim, drop me
17:02:30 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:02:31 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:02:44 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is Achille
17:02:44 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
17:02:46 <Ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:02:46 <Zakim> ok, Ivan; the call is being made
17:02:47 <pfps> ScribeNick: Carsten
17:02:47 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:02:55 <Zakim> +msmith
17:03:08 <Ivan> zakim, drop me
17:03:08 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:03:09 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:03:14 <alanr> It's ivan trying to have zakim call him
17:03:29 <Ivan> zakim, code?
17:03:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 69594 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Ivan
17:03:42 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:03:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), MartinD (muted), pfps (muted), Carsten, JeremyCarroll, uli (muted), Alan, Ratnesh, Achille, msmith
17:03:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK, Achille, Zhe, msmith, uli, bcuencagrau, bmotik, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten, trackbot-ng, sandro,
17:03:47 <Zakim> ... ewallace
17:03:50 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
17:03:50 <Zakim> IanH was not muted, IanH
17:04:00 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #owl
17:04:15 <Zakim> +??P29
17:04:16 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aaaa
17:04:20 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), MartinD (muted), pfps (muted), Carsten, JeremyCarroll, uli (muted), Alan, Ratnesh, Achille, msmith, +1.603.438.aaaa,
17:04:23 <Zakim> ... ??P29
17:04:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeffP, MarkusK, Achille, Zhe, msmith, uli, bcuencagrau, bmotik, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten, trackbot-ng,
17:04:26 <Zakim> ... sandro, ewallace
17:04:32 <JeffP> (I am only on IRC)
17:04:33 <Zhe> Zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me
17:04:33 <Zakim> +Zhe; got it
17:04:40 <Carsten> thanks, peter
17:04:51 <Ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:04:51 <Zakim> ok, Ivan; the call is being made
17:04:53 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:05:14 <Ivan> zakim, drop me
17:05:14 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:05:15 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:05:23 <Carsten> ian: roll call
17:05:33 <JeremyCarroll> Ivan - it really isn't working, and it's quite disturbing
17:05:39 <alanr> yes
17:05:53 <Carsten> ian: f2f3, my understanding is we agreed 28./29. July at MIT
17:06:17 <pfps> minutes are OK
17:06:20 <Carsten> ian: previous minutes
17:06:32 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:06:42 <Carsten> PROPOSAL: to accept previous minutes
17:06:51 <IanH> +1
17:06:53 <msmith> +1 to previous minutes
17:06:56 <MarkusK> +1
17:06:58 <Zhe> +1
17:06:59 <MartinD> +1
17:07:00 <pfps> +1
17:07:01 <alanr> +1
17:07:06 <uli> +1
17:07:08 <Carsten> +1
17:07:09 <JeffP> 0 (didn't attend)
17:07:19 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:07:23 <Carsten> RESOLVED: accept previous minutes
17:07:50 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:07:50 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/30-owl-irc#T17-07-50
17:08:23 <Carsten> ian: new strategy for handling issues: chairs look at the and decide whether they will be accepted
17:08:40 <Carsten> s/the/them/
17:09:04 <Carsten> Ian: Action Item Status
17:09:19 <Carsten> Ian: Actions 140 and 141 done
17:09:24 <Carsten> Ian: Due and overdue Actions
17:09:31 <uli> Bijan isn't there
17:09:54 <Carsten> Ian: 129, 132 deferred since Bijan is not here
17:10:13 <Carsten> Ian: Jeremy proposed to drop Action 135 (which was on him)
17:10:35 <pfps> q+
17:10:53 <pfps> -
17:10:56 <pfps> q-
17:11:07 <IanH> q?
17:11:16 <pfps> q+
17:11:20 <Carsten> Ian: action closed, Jeremy can created a new one later if necessary
17:11:25 <pfps> q+
17:11:27 <Carsten> s/created/create/
17:11:41 <Carsten> Ian: 42 skipped, Bijan not here
17:11:45 <IanH> q?
17:12:19 <pfps> q-
17:12:26 <IanH> q?
17:12:57 <Carsten> Ian: Action 43: Bijan suggested he might be able to help; come back next week
17:13:11 <IanH> q?
17:13:38 <alanr> have pushed Bijan's actions to May 5 (so they will show as overdue when agenda planning next week)
17:14:36 <Carsten> Jeremy: would appreciate early feedback from others in the group on preliminary review that I will provide soon (?)
17:14:44 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
17:14:46 <Carsten> Ian: ISSUES
17:14:51 <Carsten> Ian: Issue 82
17:15:02 <IanH> q?
17:15:12 <Carsten> Ian: really two issues; one is buggy diagrams which has been fixed by Boris and Conrad
17:15:26 <Carsten> Ian: the second part is the general issue of what is going to happen w.r.t. OMG metamodel
17:15:28 <Zakim> +??P7
17:15:37 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P7 is me
17:15:37 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
17:15:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:15:43 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
17:15:43 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:15:51 <IanH> q?
17:16:00 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
17:16:04 <Carsten> Ian: I propose to close issue as first part is solved and more concrete issues can be raised later when needed
17:16:12 <alanr> is evan here?
17:16:26 <bmotik> Conrad was quite happy about the new diagrams.
17:16:26 <JeremyCarroll> no is irc is a zombie
17:17:01 <Carsten> ian: we talked to Evan and ??? (didn't get it) and they were happy with this
17:17:08 <JeremyCarroll> ??? = ELisa
17:17:11 <Carsten> PROPOSED: resolve issue 82 as per the email
17:17:17 <alanr> +1
17:17:19 <IanH> ??? = Elisa and Conrad
17:17:22 <pfps> +1
17:17:29 <uli> +1
17:17:35 <pfps> email is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0297.html)
17:17:40 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:17:47 <IanH> +1
17:17:47 <Carsten> +1
17:17:49 <MartinD> +1
17:17:49 <Zhe> +1
17:18:00 <sandro> +1
17:18:03 <MarkusK> +1
17:18:11 <Carsten> RESOLVED issue 82
17:18:36 <Carsten> Ian: Issue 107
17:18:56 <Carsten> Ian: there is a proposal from Alan not to deprecate OWL Lite because there is no real need to do that
17:19:03 <IanH> q?
17:19:43 <Carsten> Alan: Jeremy's advice should be somewhere in the documents
17:19:50 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:19:55 <IanH> q?
17:20:01 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
17:20:18 <uli> q+
17:20:27 <IanH> q?
17:20:28 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:20:28 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
17:20:35 <Carsten> Jeremy: If we believe that people should think in terms of the new profiles and not of OWL lite, we should deprecate
17:20:45 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy was speaking personally - not for HP
17:20:50 <alanr> but you might be doing it, even you do deprecate it, as it is valid owl 2
17:20:58 <IanH> q?
17:21:02 <Carsten> Uli: we should be careful not to make OWL lite users think they have to change sth
17:21:02 <JeremyCarroll> agreed
17:21:04 <IanH> ack uli
17:21:32 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:21:32 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli
17:21:35 <sandro> +1 Uli ("deprecated" may make Lite users think they have to change something)
17:21:37 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:21:37 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:21:53 <Ivan> q+
17:21:59 <IanH> q?
17:22:00 <Carsten> Jeremy: agree with Uli in that the deprecation advice to OWL Lite users is "do nothing"
17:22:03 <IanH> ack Ivan
17:22:06 <IanH> q?
17:22:33 <uli> ...but saying that, if they want to keep working with their ontologies, they should look into the profiles would be useful as well
17:22:38 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:22:39 <Carsten> Ivan: in other areas, deprecation means that, although it is still valid, in a later version we may make in invalid. Didn't find examples in W3C docs. But it has this aspect. Thus I am in favour of what Alan says
17:22:42 <IanH> q?
17:22:56 <JeffP> [Does this mean OWL Lite will be one of the OWL 2 profiles?]
17:22:57 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#Deprecation
17:23:07 <Carsten> Jeremy: I am convinced by Ivans arguments
17:23:07 <IanH> ack JeremyCarrroll
17:23:16 <Carsten> PROPOSED: resolve issue 107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0308.html
17:23:20 <Ivan> +1
17:23:22 <IanH> +1
17:23:23 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:23:25 <bcuencagrau> +1
17:23:25 <alanr> +1
17:23:26 <Carsten> +1
17:23:26 <MarkusK> +1
17:23:27 <pfps> +1
17:23:31 <uli> +1
17:23:34 <sandro> +1
17:23:35 <Ratnesh> +1
17:23:36 <alanr> Action to add jeremy's comments somewhere?
17:23:38 <Carsten> RESOLVED issue 107
17:23:40 <Zhe> +1
17:23:40 <JeffP> +1
17:23:44 <Carsten> Ian: issue 47
17:23:56 <sandro> (very cute, Alan, using the OWL def'n of deprecation.  :-)
17:24:36 <IanH> q?
17:24:43 <JeremyCarroll> q-
17:25:14 <Carsten> Alan will put Jeremy's comments as a note in the profiles document
17:25:19 <calvanese> calvanese has joined #owl
17:25:28 <alanr> action: Alan to put editorial note in profiles document re: Jeremy's advise about OWL Lite
17:25:28 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-143 - Put editorial note in profiles document re: Jeremy's advise about OWL Lite [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-05-07].
17:25:42 <alanr> not moot - resolved
17:25:51 <JeremyCarroll> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0313
17:25:52 <Carsten> Ian: Issue 47 is moot since compound keys are covered by easykeys
17:25:58 <IanH> q?
17:26:22 <JeremyCarroll> "Proposed to close the issue as addressed by EasyKeys."
17:26:22 <Zakim> +diegoc
17:27:05 <Carsten> PROPOSED: Issue 47 resolved as addressed by EasyKeys
17:27:10 <alanr> +1
17:27:11 <pfps> +1
17:27:12 <IanH> +1
17:27:13 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:27:15 <Zhe> +1
17:27:16 <Carsten> +1
17:27:18 <JeffP> +1
17:27:20 <uli> +1
17:27:22 <MarkusK> +1
17:27:28 <msmith> +1
17:27:32 <Carsten> RESOLVED Issue 47
17:27:57 <Carsten> Ian: Issue 122
17:28:29 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to ask what it is??
17:28:34 <Carsten> Ian: it is already resolved; wasn't resolved when raised; but now resolved by the updates of the syntax and mapping documents after the F2F
17:28:38 <IanH> Q?
17:29:03 <Ivan> owl:qualifiedCardinality
17:29:32 <IanH> Q?
17:29:36 <JeremyCarroll> q-
17:29:40 <Carsten> Jeremy: I have heard that people don't like it, but not from HP so no problem here
17:29:53 <Carsten> PROPOSED: resolve issue 122 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0334.html
17:29:55 <Ivan> +1
17:29:57 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:29:58 <IanH> +1
17:29:59 <Carsten> +1
17:30:00 <JeffP> +1
17:30:01 <Zhe> +1
17:30:01 <MarkusK> +1
17:30:02 <Achille> +1
17:30:02 <msmith> +1
17:30:04 <pfps> +1
17:30:07 <MartinD> +1
17:30:10 <Ratnesh> +1
17:30:11 <alanr> +1
17:30:12 <uli> +1
17:30:15 <Carsten> RESOLVED: issue 122
17:30:38 <Carsten> Ian: Issue Discussions
17:31:11 <alanr> also, followup on feedback re: easy keys and top/bottom from implementors
17:31:16 <Carsten> Ian: we reorder issues, start with Issue 71
17:31:48 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/mid/480E0791.2030304%2540hpl.hp.com
17:32:13 <Carsten> Jeremy: the paper mentioned in the issue was maybe too complicated
17:32:51 <Carsten> Jeremy: there are linguist theries encoded in a language tag system in a bizarre fashion (?)
17:33:22 <Carsten> Jeremy: We need access to the language tag in the model theory, which is possible neither in OWL DL nor OWL Full
17:33:40 <Carsten> Jeremy: suggestion is to provide a property in OWL with a model-theoretic treatement that allows access to tags
17:34:17 <Carsten> Jeremy: different approach is to provide a way of creating data ranges of those plain literals that have language tags that are of a particular form (?)
17:34:19 <JeremyCarroll> _:a rdf:type owl:PlainLiterals .
17:34:19 <JeremyCarroll> _:a owl:withLanguageTag "en-US"^^xsd:language .
17:34:38 <Carsten> Ian: a subclass of literals, like englishliterals?
17:34:55 <bmotik> Couldn't we use facets?
17:35:10 <alanr> question, re: Peter's mail. Can we make have a range which is plain literals without a language tag?
17:35:13 <bmotik> I think we can.
17:35:15 <bmotik> q+
17:35:17 <Carsten> Jeremy: yes; maybe we can do it (what? distorted) in facets
17:35:21 <IanH> q?
17:35:32 <pfps> plain literals without language tag is xsd:string
17:35:50 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:35:50 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:36:06 <alanr> ok, peter - good point. Need a test case for that.
17:36:08 <pfps> zakim, who is speaking?
17:36:18 <Zakim> pfps, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Carsten (26%)
17:36:46 <Carsten> boris: interesting issue we may want to address. two questions. First: for a bunch of objects, you have values connected via properties. If you want to single out all english literals, this can be done with facets
17:37:01 <IanH> Carsten: you might want to mute yourself (typing noise)
17:37:05 <Carsten> boris: that would allow to query all values in english
17:37:31 <Carsten> boris: second question: do you really need to break down and get the actual language tag as a string?
17:37:40 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:37:44 <IanH> q?
17:37:50 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:37:50 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:37:53 <Carsten> boris: the latter would require n-ary datatypes
17:38:35 <pfps> q+
17:38:44 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:38:52 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
17:39:45 <pfps> q+ to suggest owl:langpattern as a datatype facet valid on language strings
17:39:52 <pfps> ack me
17:39:53 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to suggest owl:langpattern as a datatype facet valid on language strings
17:39:56 <Carsten> Jeremy: refers to what is needed in the paper cited in issue description. Unions play an imporant way, e.g. for different versions of chinese 
17:40:17 <alanr> q+
17:40:24 <Carsten> peter: patterns should work fine for language tags, XSD patterns
17:40:25 <JeremyCarroll> Seems plausible
17:40:34 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:40:34 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
17:40:36 <alanr> q-
17:40:45 <pfps> "01010"?
17:40:50 <Carsten> Ian: why are literals not always a pair of language tag and content?
17:40:52 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:40:54 <IanH> q?
17:41:02 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
17:41:32 <Carsten> Jeremy: describes decision made by RDF group
17:41:33 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:41:39 <alanr> +1 to langpattern
17:41:55 <Carsten> jeremy, I missed the details of your last remark, could you please put them in?
17:42:01 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:42:03 <JeremyCarroll> That plainliterals without lang tag are identical to xsd:string
17:42:09 <IanH> q?
17:42:30 <alanr> but would like example of pattern - is this clearly documented?
17:42:34 <JeremyCarroll> OK
17:42:43 <Carsten> Ian: this could be the basis for a solution that Jeremy could write up
17:43:07 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:43:10 <Carsten> Alan: I like the idea
17:43:22 <Ivan> q+
17:43:23 <bmotik> I am not sure I understood both proposals.
17:43:27 <pfps> its a go.
17:43:48 <Carsten> Jeremy: I can write up sth that is likely to be consensus
17:44:09 <IanH> q?
17:44:17 <Ivan> ack JeremyCarroll 
17:44:20 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
17:44:28 <Carsten> Jeremy: will write a wiki page with texts that could then go into the documents
17:44:45 <IanH> Can someone do the action?
17:45:00 <Carsten> Ivan: It may be worth for Jeremy to talk to Felix Tasaki (sp?)
17:45:05 <IanH> q?
17:45:09 <IanH> ack Ivan
17:45:11 <Ivan> s/Tasaki/Sasaki/
17:46:00 <JeremyCarroll> ACTION: Jeremy, Start WIki page addressing lang tag issue, liasing with I18N activity (felix?)
17:46:00 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeremy,
17:46:09 <Carsten> Ian: Issue 97
17:46:24 <JeremyCarroll> ACTION: Jeremy Start WIki page addressing lang tag issue, liasing with I18N activity (felix?)
17:46:24 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-144 - Start WIki page addressing lang tag issue, liasing with I18N activity (felix?) [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-05-07].
17:47:03 <IanH> q?
17:47:12 <Carsten> Alan: we were waiting for Ivan and Sandro to explain ramifications
17:47:28 <Carsten> Ian: suggestion from Bijan was that we only need to provide some kind of hook
17:47:53 <IanH> zakim, mute Carsten
17:47:53 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
17:48:07 <IanH> OK
17:48:34 <JeremyCarroll> suggest ask GRDDL WG?
17:48:35 <Carsten> Alan: we need an expert to help with that
17:48:44 <Carsten> Ivan: my XSLT knowledge is not good enough
17:49:38 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:49:44 <IanH> q?
17:49:49 <Carsten> Ian: the belief is that we really need to have it
17:50:07 <Carsten> Jeremy: we can send a message to the GRDDL WG and ask for volunteers
17:50:16 <Carsten> Ivan: the GRDDL WG is hibernating
17:50:20 <Zakim> -Alan
17:50:20 <Ivan> q+
17:50:35 <Ivan> ack JeremyCarroll 
17:50:37 <alanr> Action: Jeremy to send mail to GRDDL groups asking for volunteer (just in case)
17:50:37 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-145 - Send mail to GRDDL groups asking for volunteer (just in case) [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-05-07].
17:50:41 <IanH> q?
17:50:47 <IanH> ack Ivan
17:50:47 <Ivan> ack Ivan 
17:50:48 <Carsten> Ian: bijan is not here to argue that we do not need it; in the meantime, we can ping people to help us
17:51:24 <Carsten> Ivan: according to GRDDL, the transformation is not necessarily in XSLT; but all known implementations are XSLT
17:51:34 <IanH> q?
17:51:43 <Zakim> +Alan
17:51:43 <alanr> q+
17:51:49 <IanH> q?
17:52:43 <alanr> ack alanr
17:52:49 <Carsten> Alan: you can be conforming in the you return a generated XSLT; but we don't need a server that does the computation
17:52:56 <Carsten> Sandro: IMHO, this is cheating
17:53:10 <IanH> q?
17:53:13 <Carsten> Alan: the server would be hosted at W3C
17:53:25 <Carsten> Sandro: bad if you are behind firewall
17:53:37 <IanH> q?
17:53:41 <Carsten> Ivan: a GRDDL implementation might cache the transformation (?)
17:54:08 <alanr> good point. I concur that it doesn't work to use the trick.
17:54:17 <Carsten> Jeremy: I may not want to send my data over the internet to W3C
17:54:25 <JeremyCarroll> Also security issue with W3C server
17:54:49 <alanr> q+
17:54:57 <IanH> q?
17:55:03 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:55:03 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
17:55:04 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to point of order, on I18N issue
17:55:08 <Carsten> Ian: Do we want to have the discussion on n-ary datatypes today or wait for Bijan?
17:55:29 <Carsten> Alan: we could at least review the feedback by Achille, Zhe, et al
17:55:46 <IanH> q?
17:55:51 <alanr> ack alanr
17:55:52 <IanH> ack alanr
17:56:07 <IanH> q?
17:56:14 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
17:56:14 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to point of order, on I18N issue
17:56:15 <alanr> I believe the consensus was that we didn't want to handle lang in XML literals
17:56:24 <alanr> not well defined
17:56:30 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:56:30 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:56:40 <IanH> q?
17:56:42 <Carsten> which issue is this please?
17:56:51 <alanr> issue 71
17:57:09 <IanH> q?
17:57:41 <Carsten> Jeremy: XHTML would be embedded as HTML
17:57:54 <Carsten> Ivan: this is more relevant for RDF core than for OWL WG
17:58:23 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: the lang proposal does not address XML Literals, in particular XHTML embedded in OWL
17:59:01 <IanH> q?
17:59:15 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:59:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bmotik, MartinD (muted), pfps (muted), Carsten (muted), JeremyCarroll, uli (muted), Ratnesh, Achille, msmith, Zhe, MarkusK, Ivan, bcuencagrau (muted),
17:59:18 <Carsten> Alan: zhe, jeremy and achille; feedback on easykeys and top/bottomrole
17:59:19 <Zakim> ... calvanese (muted), Sandro, Alan
17:59:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see calvanese, JeffP, MarkusK, Achille, Zhe, msmith, uli, bcuencagrau, bmotik, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ratnesh, Ivan, IanH, MartinD, JeremyCarroll, pfps, Carsten,
17:59:22 <Zakim> ... trackbot-ng, sandro, ewallace
18:00:13 <Carsten> Achille: easykeys is fine with us; top/bottomproperty we don't really see strong concrete usecases; Markus sent feedback; I still have mixed feelings
18:00:20 <IanH> q?
18:01:08 <Carsten> Ian: if you have implemented OWL DL, you have implemented top/bottomrole anyway in a certain sense
18:01:16 <alanr> q+
18:01:17 <Carsten> Ian: so there is no implementation as such
18:01:19 <IanH> q?
18:01:47 <alanr> e.g I can see forward chaining reasoners having this cost
18:02:01 <IanH> q?
18:02:19 <Carsten> Achille: the question is whether we should encourage people to use that, and whether this will have performance impacts
18:02:29 <Carsten> Alan: curious as well as to whether it is a performance issue
18:02:39 <uli> q+
18:02:42 <alanr> ack alanr
18:02:45 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:02:45 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:02:49 <IanH> q?
18:02:53 <IanH> ack uli
18:03:00 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to answer alan's forward chaining qu
18:03:09 <Carsten> Uli: it's just syntactic sugar, no blowup
18:03:21 <alanr> ok thanks
18:03:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:03:26 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:03:26 <IanH> q?
18:03:27 <Carsten> uli: in practical cases, things may become a bit more tricky
18:03:35 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
18:03:35 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to answer alan's forward chaining qu
18:03:38 <IanH> q?
18:03:42 <Zakim> -Alan
18:04:04 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
18:04:04 <bmotik_> bmotik_ has joined #owl
18:04:04 <Achille> q+
18:04:07 <Carsten> jeremy: our experience is that forward chaining itself is inadequate, and the right mixture of forward- and backward-chaining is the solution
18:04:17 <IanH> q?
18:04:56 <Carsten> zhe: no doubt that easykeys is practical; top/bottomrole people can represent it anyway so I have no strong feeling as long as we do not put a rule in OWL-R 
18:05:20 <IanH> q?
18:05:21 <Carsten> Ian: it could just not be in the profile
18:05:50 <Carsten> Achille: question is: potential impact on profiles
18:06:12 <uli> q+
18:06:20 <alanr> bottom has some implication in classification, but gut is that it isn't onerous
18:06:23 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:06:23 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:06:28 <IanH> q?
18:06:32 <IanH> ack Achille
18:06:35 <IanH> ack uli
18:06:37 <IanH> q?
18:06:51 <Carsten> uli: the main motivation for having top/bottomrole was not urgent use cases; it was more to have a symmetric treatment of classes and properties
18:07:19 <Carsten> uli: I do not think we should encourage people to use it a lot
18:07:33 <IanH> q?
18:07:39 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:07:39 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:07:45 <alanr> q+
18:08:03 <IanH> q?
18:08:29 <Carsten> Ian: we should give people a bit more time to think about it
18:09:02 <JeremyCarroll> I am happy to resolve, with Zhe's rider not in OWL-R
18:09:11 <Carsten> Alan: I would say sth stronger; there are no objections, except some fear of performance impact, but it seems we are close consensus to add those to OWL-DL
18:09:24 <Carsten> s/close/close to/
18:09:45 <msmith> +1 to add to DL now, consider for profiles
18:09:46 <Carsten> STRAW POLL: add top/bottomproperty to OWL-DL, take actions to check profiles
18:09:47 <JeremyCarroll> +1 (as long as not in OWL-R)
18:09:47 <Achille> +1
18:09:49 <uli> +1
18:09:51 <MarkusK> +1 to add top/bottomProperty to OWL DL now
18:09:52 <Carsten> +1
18:09:53 <MartinD> +1
18:09:54 <Ivan> +1
18:09:55 <Zhe> +1
18:09:59 <alanr> Add EasyKeys too, Carsten
18:10:00 <pfps> +1 to add to DL, and let the profiles fall where they may
18:10:01 <bcuencagrau> +1
18:10:01 <alanr> +1
18:10:02 <JeffP> +1
18:10:03 <calvanese> +1
18:10:11 <IanH> q?
18:10:17 <alanr> ack alanr
18:10:18 <IanH> ack alan
18:10:38 <Carsten> Ian: discussion about n-ary datatypes
18:11:01 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:11:01 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:11:16 <JeremyCarroll> uli fills Bijan's shoes!
18:11:25 <msmith> proposal: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_proposal
18:11:43 <msmith> use cases, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_use_case
18:11:43 <Carsten> Uli explains current proposal
18:12:22 <IanH> q?
18:12:28 <Carsten> q+
18:12:31 <alanr> bunch of the use cases are constraints
18:12:35 <IanH> q?
18:12:37 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
18:12:37 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
18:12:56 <IanH> q?
18:13:01 <IanH> ack Carsten
18:13:27 <msmith> carsten: confusing in the proposal.  reals vs. algebraic reals
18:14:01 <msmith> carsten: in owl 1.0 strings are required, they are not in this proposal. and its not clear how they'd fit
18:14:03 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
18:14:03 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
18:14:04 <pfps> q+
18:14:23 <pfps> q-
18:14:25 <IanH> q?
18:14:28 <alanr> q+
18:14:32 <Carsten> uli: have to recheck algebraic reals
18:14:36 <IanH> q?
18:14:56 <Carsten> uli: as to factes, we just took the most obvious ones
18:15:04 <Carsten> s/factes/facets/
18:15:29 <Carsten> Alan asks for decidability when we put all things together
18:15:33 <IanH> q?
18:15:40 <IanH> ack alanr
18:15:42 <Carsten> Uli: didn't we agree that this happens everywhere in OWL and we can live with it?
18:15:53 <Carsten> Alan: this brings us out of OWL DL
18:15:57 <IanH> q?
18:16:20 <IanH> q?
18:16:20 <MarkusK> Re greater than for strings: strings in XSD are indeed unordered as per spec, though this "not preclude other applications from treating strings as being ordered"
18:16:27 <MarkusK> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#string
18:16:43 <Carsten> Alan: is the idea to have non-structural restrictions?
18:16:47 <IanH> q?
18:16:53 <Carsten> q+
18:17:05 <Ivan> q+
18:17:25 <IanH> q?
18:17:34 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
18:17:34 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
18:17:39 <IanH> ack Carsten
18:18:32 <msmith> alanr - in the current proposal, inequalities are for reals only
18:18:34 <IanH> q?
18:18:37 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
18:18:37 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
18:18:50 <Carsten> as long as they are all in the "required" part, no problem
18:18:54 <IanH> q?
18:19:11 <Carsten> exactly
18:19:38 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to ask about other XSD types ..
18:19:41 <IanH> q?
18:19:46 <Carsten> Alan: so we just say that: if you use optional and combine them, you are not guaranteed to be decidable
18:19:51 <IanH> ack Ivan
18:19:57 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:19:57 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:20:10 <Carsten> Ivan: I am lost on how to express all that in RDF
18:20:29 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:20:29 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:20:45 <msmith> q+ on mathml
18:20:56 <Carsten> Uli: one of the various issues we have to address if people like the proposal in general
18:21:00 <JeremyCarroll> q- on
18:21:00 <IanH> q?
18:21:03 <JeremyCarroll> q- mathml
18:21:12 <msmith> q+ to respond on mathml
18:22:11 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll
18:22:11 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to ask about other XSD types ..
18:22:35 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:22:35 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli
18:22:48 <Carsten> Jeremy: how does the proposal constrain the interaction between these predicates and the XSD types
18:23:15 <IanH> q?
18:23:25 <Carsten> Uli: it doesn't constrain; as long as you use the required ones, you will be fine. When you use user-defined ones, it's your own responsibility
18:24:00 <Carsten> Jeremy: we should encourage ontology designers to use mathematically more clean datatypes like real and integer, but not machine datatypes like byte and float
18:24:06 <Carsten> Uli: yes
18:24:16 <JeremyCarroll> ^we should^is this proposal that we should^
18:24:50 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:24:50 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:24:56 <IanH> q?
18:25:02 <IanH> ack msmith
18:25:02 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to respond on mathml
18:25:05 <IanH> q?
18:25:44 <Carsten> mike: bijan left this open until there is support for the proposal by the group
18:25:56 <Carsten> (this = RDF mapping)
18:26:05 <Ivan> q+
18:26:08 <IanH> q?
18:26:21 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:26:21 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:26:41 <Carsten> strawpoll formulation?
18:27:20 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:27:20 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:27:35 <msmith> ivan, I don't really understand what the RDF rqmts might be.  if you could send me an email outlining them, it'd help.
18:27:36 <Ivan> +1
18:27:36 <JeremyCarroll> -1
18:27:37 <pfps> +1 (half a datatype, half a datatype, half a datatype onward)
18:27:38 <Carsten> STRAWPOLL: carry on with n-ary datatypes?
18:27:39 <JeffP> +1
18:27:40 <alanr> 0
18:27:41 <Achille> 0
18:27:41 <Carsten> +1
18:27:42 <MarkusK> +1
18:27:42 <msmith> +1
18:27:44 <MartinD> +1
18:27:44 <JeremyCarroll> -1
18:27:47 <sandro> +1
18:27:48 <Zhe> 0 (need more time to understand)
18:27:52 <calvanese> +1
18:27:55 <bcuencagrau> +1
18:27:59 <Carsten> explanation from Jeremy?
18:28:12 <Carsten> yes
18:28:17 <Carsten> I would be interested to know
18:28:45 <Carsten> Jeremy: HP was very opposed; I can re-consult with colleagues to check; looks better now
18:29:04 <JeremyCarroll> ^looks better now^not that much better^
18:29:08 <uli> yes
18:29:23 <Carsten> STRAWPOLL: should n-ary datatypes include optional datatype + predicates?
18:29:34 <Carsten> +1
18:29:36 <JeremyCarroll> ACTION: Jeremy clarify HP position on n-ary datatypes
18:29:36 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-146 - Clarify HP position on n-ary datatypes [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-05-07].
18:29:40 <alanr> 0
18:29:42 <Zhe> 0
18:29:45 <bcuencagrau> 0
18:29:46 <MartinD> 0
18:29:46 <calvanese> +1
18:29:46 <Ivan> 0
18:29:47 <MarkusK> +1
18:29:47 <Achille> 0
18:29:48 <JeffP> +1
18:29:49 <pfps> +1 (minus some very small epsilon)
18:29:50 <sandro> 0
18:29:51 <msmith> +1
18:29:52 <JeremyCarroll> 0
18:29:58 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:29:58 <Zakim> uli was already muted, uli
18:30:56 <Carsten> Alan: a crucial point seems to be the RDF mapping
18:30:57 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
18:30:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been IanH, bmotik, MartinD, pfps, bcuencagrau, Carsten, Alan, uli, JeremyCarroll, Ivan, Ratnesh, Achille, msmith, Zhe, MarkusK, Sandro,
18:31:01 <Zakim> ... calvanese, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:31:04 <Zhe> thanks
18:31:05 <Ivan> bye everybody
18:31:06 <alanr> thanks Ian!
18:31:07 <MarkusK> bye
18:31:08 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:31:09 <Zakim> -MarkusK
18:31:10 <calvanese> bye
18:31:11 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:31:12 <Zakim> -msmith
18:31:12 <Zakim> -Achille
18:31:13 <MartinD> bye
18:31:13 <Zakim> -Ratnesh
18:31:13 <Zakim> -Zhe
18:31:14 <Ratnesh> bye
18:31:15 <Zakim> -calvanese
18:31:15 <JeffP> bye
18:31:17 <Zakim> -IanH
18:31:17 <uli> bye
18:31:17 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
18:31:19 <Zakim> -MartinD
18:31:20 <sandro> Carsten, hang on 3 minutes for the minutes to be ready for you?>
18:31:21 <Zakim> -Carsten
18:31:23 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
18:31:26 <Zakim> -Sandro
18:31:50 <IanH> Carsten: you still there?
18:31:52 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
18:31:54 <Carsten>  Can anybody  pls help me in moving the minutes to where they belong?
18:31:59 <IanH> Yes
18:32:06 <Carsten> Ian: yes, but only IRC, not phone
18:32:07 <IanH> Sandro is doing this I think
18:32:14 <IanH> IRC is enough
18:32:21 <Zakim> -uli
18:32:22 <sandro> Present: IanH, bmotik, MartinD, pfps, bcuencagrau, Carsten, Alan, uli, JeremyCarroll, Ivan, Ratnesh, Achille, msmith, Zhe, MarkusK, Sandro, calvanese, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:32:33 <IanH> We need some magic invocation that I always forget
18:32:34 <Zakim> -pfps
18:32:35 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:32:36 <Zakim> Attendees were IanH, bmotik, MartinD, pfps, bcuencagrau, Carsten, Alan, uli, JeremyCarroll, Ivan, Ratnesh, Achille, msmith, Zhe, MarkusK, Sandro, calvanese, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:32:48 <IanH> Sandro?
18:32:54 <sandro> Yes, doing it, IanH 
18:32:59 <Carsten> thanks, sandro
18:33:01 <IanH> Thanks
18:33:38 <MartinD> MartinD has left #OWL
18:33:49 <sandro> Okay.    http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.04.30/Minutes is ready for editing, Carsten.
18:42:38 <uli> uli has left #owl
18:45:51 <msmith> msmith has left #owl
19:24:19 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has left #owl
21:33:05 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl