IRC log of swd on 2008-04-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:58:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-irc
14:58:47 [JonP]
:)
14:58:52 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:52 [Zakim]
sorry, TomB, I don't know what conference this is
14:58:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, JonP, TomB
14:59:04 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:59:04 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-irc#T14-59-04
14:59:15 [TomB]
zakim, this will be swd
14:59:15 [Zakim]
ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:59:24 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:59:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker
14:59:30 [TomB]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:59:34 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
14:59:48 [TomB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/0108.html
15:00:14 [TomB]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html
15:00:40 [TomB]
Regrets: Elisa, Diego, Ralph
15:00:59 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:01:26 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+JonP
15:01:30 [Zakim]
-Tom_Baker
15:01:32 [Zakim]
+Tom_Baker
15:01:34 [Zakim]
+??P34
15:01:43 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has joined #swd
15:01:48 [TomB]
zakim, P34 is Daniel
15:01:49 [Zakim]
sorry, TomB, I do not recognize a party named 'P34'
15:01:49 [marghe]
marghe has joined #swd
15:01:58 [TomB]
zakim, ??P34 is Daniel
15:01:58 [Zakim]
+Daniel; got it
15:02:01 [edsu]
edsu has joined #swd
15:02:17 [Zakim]
+aliman
15:02:36 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+??P41
15:02:58 [Zakim]
+Margherita_Sini
15:03:22 [TomB]
zakim, ??P41 is Antoine
15:03:22 [Zakim]
+Antoine; got it
15:03:56 [TomB]
Scribe: Jon
15:04:00 [TomB]
Scribenick: JonP
15:04:44 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:04:45 [Zakim]
-[LC]
15:05:00 [TomB]
Edsu, are you trying to join?
15:05:17 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:05:53 [GuuSSchreiber]
GuuSSchreiber has joined #swd
15:06:12 [seanb]
seanb has joined #swd
15:07:37 [Zakim]
+??P50
15:07:50 [TomB]
zakim, ??P50 is SeanB
15:07:50 [Zakim]
+SeanB; got it
15:07:56 [TomB]
Guus, are you dialing in?
15:08:23 [JonP]
TOPIC: Admin
15:08:26 [Zakim]
+??P52
15:08:43 [TomB]
zakim, ??P52 is Guus
15:08:43 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:09:28 [JonP]
TomB: Live coverage of the F2F via IRC and telephone
15:09:42 [JonP]
edsu: Clay has checked out phones and that's working
15:10:13 [JonP]
Tomb: There will be 7 teleconferences before July in which to get the remaining work done
15:10:44 [JonP]
RESOLVED: Minutes of the April 22 telecon: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html accepted
15:10:55 [JonP]
ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS until July 1st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:11:06 [JonP]
-- completed
15:11:37 [JonP]
TomB: Would like to focus on getting the wiki document complete this week
15:11:55 [JonP]
... would like to encourage issue owners to get their portions complete this week
15:12:17 [benadida]
benadida has joined #swd
15:12:27 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
15:12:28 [JonP]
... editors of primer and reference should edit the wiki to improve the clustering of topics
15:12:44 [JonP]
... so that it's clear what everyone needs to read efore the f2f
15:12:50 [JonP]
TOPIC: SKOS
15:13:35 [JonP]
TomB: Reads schedule as noted in the agenda
15:13:53 [JonP]
ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02]
15:13:59 [JonP]
--CONTINUES
15:15:02 [JonP]
TomB: edsu should directly edit the wiki and send a note to the list before Friday so that everyone can read the docs
15:15:27 [JonP]
ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08]
15:16:37 [JonP]
Guus: thinks it's tied into the discussion of whether this belongs in the discussion of whether this is included
15:17:45 [JonP]
Guus: making the broader equivalent to rdf:type and broadergeneric equivalent to rdfs:subclass
15:18:06 [JonP]
Alistair: the discussion of the datamodel may be quite long
15:18:24 [JonP]
... we might not to get too deep into the design
15:18:49 [JonP]
Guus: will make sure this action is complete by Friday
15:18:59 [JonP]
-- CONTINUES
15:19:32 [JonP]
Guus: This is on the f2f agenda as issue-56
15:20:30 [JonP]
TomB: Is part of the discussion whether this is in the current ref or a future extension
15:20:41 [JonP]
... wat is the correct discussion sequence?
15:21:01 [aliman]
q+ to suggest approach to agenda
15:21:48 [JonP]
Guus: let's discuss issue-56 before issue-37
15:22:12 [JonP]
aliman: there are a bunch of issue that are part of a scope discussion
15:22:53 [TomB]
+1 like the idea of having scope discussion first
15:23:01 [edsu]
+1 me too
15:23:03 [JonP]
.. can we do a quick discussion about which thiings are in scope before we continue to the discussion
15:23:20 [JonP]
guus, TomB: This sounds like a good idea
15:23:43 [JonP]
... aliman to edit the agenda to put a scope discussion at the top
15:23:52 [JonP]
ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:23:57 [JonP]
---CONTINUES
15:24:12 [JonP]
ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept Coordination) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:24:23 [JonP]
-- continues
15:24:32 [JonP]
ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move ISSUE-71 and -74 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:24:37 [JonP]
--continues
15:24:49 [aliman]
q+ to mention SKOS formal schema
15:25:37 [JonP]
TomB: beyond aliman's suggestion to put scoping at the top, we don't have a clear discussion order
15:26:06 [JonP]
... in what order should we discuss?
15:26:20 [Zakim]
-Daniel
15:26:46 [JonP]
... issues 69, 70, 41 are currently in a section called new issues
15:27:27 [JonP]
... There are an awful lot of issues. We should think through the order before starting the f2f
15:27:52 [JonP]
... editors of primer and reference should please update the order by Friday
15:28:43 [JonP]
TomB: please check to see if the dependencies are still current as well
15:29:09 [JonP]
... There are about 25 issues, and each is a page, and the drafts for the ref, primer, xl proposal
15:29:33 [JonP]
... we need to make clear what everyone should print out to bring along
15:30:18 [JonP]
antoine: discuss semantics of particular peoperties and editorial issues
15:31:23 [JonP]
... and make sure that issues don't get discussed twice
15:32:17 [JonP]
TomB: Yes, editorial issues should be at the end
15:32:49 [JonP]
... we have a cluster of issues around the skos schema, 20005 working draft, modifying terms, that sort of thing
15:33:42 [JonP]
... we have things like issue-40 which is non-essential. Maybe we should put the non-essential things toward the end.
15:34:00 [JonP]
... We could probably edit the agenda based on the scoping discussion
15:34:49 [JonP]
TomB: Everyone needs to read the reference, primaer and XL, and print out each issue page
15:35:29 [JonP]
... There's a draft OWL schema and the 2005 skos working draft, but they don't necessarily need to print those out
15:36:30 [JonP]
aliman: seanb sent around a link to a proposed formal schema for skos
15:37:01 [JonP]
...the schema includes lots of documentation, making the schema itself an OWL 2 ontology
15:37:31 [JonP]
... if anyone needs OWL DL schema they should take a look at it
15:37:33 [edsu]
aliman: nice work on the validation of the html and owl at http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080125-resources/
15:37:35 [aliman]
q-
15:37:36 [JonP]
TOPIC: RDFA
15:38:02 [JonP]
TomB: reads the schedule from the agenda
15:38:21 [aliman]
thanks edsu, it was nice to discover an automated transform from the reference prose was possible :)
15:38:37 [edsu]
aliman: speaking of rdfa eh? :)
15:38:40 [JonP]
ACTION: Diego to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:38:57 [JonP]
--continues
15:39:06 [JonP]
ACTION: Ed to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]
15:39:12 [JonP]
--continues
15:39:35 [JonP]
ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
15:39:39 [JonP]
--continues
15:40:35 [JonP]
benadida: There's a new version of the syntax going out today, and this will be the last substantive change before CR
15:41:02 [JonP]
... Gave an RDFa tutorial at WWW that was very well-received
15:41:15 [JonP]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
15:41:20 [JonP]
---continues
15:41:33 [JonP]
ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
15:41:37 [JonP]
--continues
15:43:04 [JonP]
ACTION: Jon will correct the PURL references in the recipes and update the files in W3 space
15:43:22 [JonP]
TOPIC: VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT
15:43:42 [JonP]
TomB: Working draft by June 1, 2008
15:44:04 [JonP]
... Elisa will put together a list of issues for discussion at the f2f
15:44:32 [JonP]
... Will send a note to her to get that ready before Friday
15:44:57 [JonP]
TomB: Anything else to add before the f2f?
15:46:53 [JonP]
Guus: A few things to discuss in the remaining time
15:47:31 [JonP]
... stuck with the broadergeneric and broadertransitive specialization
15:48:14 [JonP]
... We make a distinction between broader and broadertransitive and maybe that makes our lives difficult
15:48:42 [JonP]
SeanB: Can you explain why this is a problem.
15:49:03 [JonP]
Guus: If you define broader as directly below another term
15:49:43 [JonP]
... then broadergeneric becomes a subproperty of broader
15:50:00 [JonP]
the scribe is having trouble keeping up with this conversation
15:50:59 [aliman]
guus: say we have, a broader b, b broader c. broaderGeneric subproperty broader. broaderGeneric equivalentProperty subClassOf. ...
15:51:12 [aliman]
seanb: say broader is not transitive, ...
15:51:25 [JonP]
thanks aliman :) oy
15:51:31 [aliman]
guus: intended usage is broader means direct broader, that's why we have broaderTransitive
15:51:43 [aliman]
antoine: but can have exception for broaderGeneric ...
15:51:53 [aliman]
guus: no, get two meanings of broader.
15:52:00 [aliman]
q+
15:52:11 [aliman]
seanb: not sure I see as a problem.
15:53:42 [seanb]
q+
15:53:53 [TomB]
ack aliman
15:54:22 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has left #swd
15:54:45 [JonP]
aliman: there are a couple of issues we can specifiy -- if you introduce broaderGeneric, how do you affect the semantics? And is subclassof the best way to do it
15:56:00 [JonP]
... at a meeting in manchester, they're generating skos from owl, and rather than using the same vocabulary you use a transform
15:56:18 [JonP]
... if you make the links explicit, you deny choice
15:56:32 [TomB]
ack seanb
15:56:41 [JonP]
... Otherwise you allow transforms from one world to another
15:57:32 [aliman]
seanb: skos:broader is intended to represent direct, but that's about usage not semantics. so if defined broaderGeneric, as transitive, don't contradict semantics, but do contradict our usage conventions.
15:58:10 [aliman]
guus: yes, if have broaderTransitive and broader, gives impression that broader is direct link. Then if have broaderGeneric, it looks like rdfs:subClassOf.
15:59:02 [aliman]
... if we do this broaderGeneric, then in favour of dropping broaderTransitive, keeping broader ambiguous, and if people want direct broader term use a query facility, like people do in OWL.
16:00:19 [aliman]
seanb: I'd have to do more work. I can't query for transitive closure, would have to do more work in application.
16:00:31 [aliman]
guus: but have to do that anyway. if work in rdf do that anyway.
16:01:20 [JonP]
aliman: this discussion is one of the main reasons we should consider broaderGeneric for an extension module
16:01:56 [JonP]
Seanb: the problem then is that this affects the reference
16:02:51 [JonP]
Guus: could we continue this discussion for another 10 minutes
16:02:57 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
16:04:00 [TomB]
zakim, please list attendees
16:04:00 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Tom_Baker, JonP, Daniel, aliman, Margherita_Sini, Antoine, [LC], SeanB, Guus, Ben_Adida
16:04:12 [TomB]
zakim, LC is Edsu
16:04:12 [Zakim]
+Edsu; got it
16:04:18 [TomB]
zakim, please list attendees
16:04:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Tom_Baker, JonP, Daniel, aliman, Margherita_Sini, Antoine, SeanB, Guus, Ben_Adida, Edsu
16:04:29 [TomB]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:04:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html TomB
16:04:55 [TomB]
JonP, you can correct the minutes and post?
16:05:06 [JonP]
Yep
16:05:25 [TomB]
thanks! Have a good trip - see you next week
16:05:25 [JonP]
Thanks Tom
16:05:37 [JonP]
u 2
16:16:45 [seanb]
seanb has left #swd
16:16:46 [Zakim]
-JonP
16:16:49 [Zakim]
-SeanB
16:16:51 [Zakim]
-Antoine
16:24:42 [Zakim]
-aliman
16:24:46 [Zakim]
-Margherita_Sini
16:26:35 [Zakim]
-Tom_Baker
16:26:36 [Zakim]
-Guus
16:26:42 [Zakim]
-Edsu
16:26:43 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:26:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were Tom_Baker, JonP, Daniel, aliman, Margherita_Sini, Antoine, SeanB, Guus, Ben_Adida, Edsu
16:33:05 [edsu]
edsu has left #swd
18:15:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd