14:58:46 RRSAgent has joined #swd 14:58:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-irc 14:58:47 :) 14:58:52 zakim, who is on the call? 14:58:52 sorry, TomB, I don't know what conference this is 14:58:53 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, JonP, TomB 14:59:04 rrsagent, bookmark 14:59:04 See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-irc#T14-59-04 14:59:15 zakim, this will be swd 14:59:15 ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started 14:59:24 zakim, who is on the call? 14:59:24 On the phone I see Tom_Baker 14:59:30 Meeting: SWD WG 14:59:34 Chair: Tom 14:59:48 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/0108.html 15:00:14 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html 15:00:40 Regrets: Elisa, Diego, Ralph 15:00:59 rrsagent, please make record public 15:01:26 aliman has joined #swd 15:01:27 +JonP 15:01:30 -Tom_Baker 15:01:32 +Tom_Baker 15:01:34 +??P34 15:01:43 dlrubin has joined #swd 15:01:48 zakim, P34 is Daniel 15:01:49 sorry, TomB, I do not recognize a party named 'P34' 15:01:49 marghe has joined #swd 15:01:58 zakim, ??P34 is Daniel 15:01:58 +Daniel; got it 15:02:01 edsu has joined #swd 15:02:17 +aliman 15:02:36 Antoine has joined #swd 15:02:57 +??P41 15:02:58 +Margherita_Sini 15:03:22 zakim, ??P41 is Antoine 15:03:22 +Antoine; got it 15:03:56 Scribe: Jon 15:04:00 Scribenick: JonP 15:04:44 +[LC] 15:04:45 -[LC] 15:05:00 Edsu, are you trying to join? 15:05:17 +[LC] 15:05:53 GuuSSchreiber has joined #swd 15:06:12 seanb has joined #swd 15:07:37 +??P50 15:07:50 zakim, ??P50 is SeanB 15:07:50 +SeanB; got it 15:07:56 Guus, are you dialing in? 15:08:23 TOPIC: Admin 15:08:26 +??P52 15:08:43 zakim, ??P52 is Guus 15:08:43 +Guus; got it 15:09:28 TomB: Live coverage of the F2F via IRC and telephone 15:09:42 edsu: Clay has checked out phones and that's working 15:10:13 Tomb: There will be 7 teleconferences before July in which to get the remaining work done 15:10:44 RESOLVED: Minutes of the April 22 telecon: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html accepted 15:10:55 ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS until July 1st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:11:06 -- completed 15:11:37 TomB: Would like to focus on getting the wiki document complete this week 15:11:55 ... would like to encourage issue owners to get their portions complete this week 15:12:17 benadida has joined #swd 15:12:27 +Ben_Adida 15:12:28 ... editors of primer and reference should edit the wiki to improve the clustering of topics 15:12:44 ... so that it's clear what everyone needs to read efore the f2f 15:12:50 TOPIC: SKOS 15:13:35 TomB: Reads schedule as noted in the agenda 15:13:53 ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02] 15:13:59 --CONTINUES 15:15:02 TomB: edsu should directly edit the wiki and send a note to the list before Friday so that everyone can read the docs 15:15:27 ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08] 15:16:37 Guus: thinks it's tied into the discussion of whether this belongs in the discussion of whether this is included 15:17:45 Guus: making the broader equivalent to rdf:type and broadergeneric equivalent to rdfs:subclass 15:18:06 Alistair: the discussion of the datamodel may be quite long 15:18:24 ... we might not to get too deep into the design 15:18:49 Guus: will make sure this action is complete by Friday 15:18:59 -- CONTINUES 15:19:32 Guus: This is on the f2f agenda as issue-56 15:20:30 TomB: Is part of the discussion whether this is in the current ref or a future extension 15:20:41 ... wat is the correct discussion sequence? 15:21:01 q+ to suggest approach to agenda 15:21:48 Guus: let's discuss issue-56 before issue-37 15:22:12 aliman: there are a bunch of issue that are part of a scope discussion 15:22:53 +1 like the idea of having scope discussion first 15:23:01 +1 me too 15:23:03 .. can we do a quick discussion about which thiings are in scope before we continue to the discussion 15:23:20 guus, TomB: This sounds like a good idea 15:23:43 ... aliman to edit the agenda to put a scope discussion at the top 15:23:52 ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10] 15:23:57 ---CONTINUES 15:24:12 ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept Coordination) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09] 15:24:23 -- continues 15:24:32 ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move ISSUE-71 and -74 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action09] 15:24:37 --continues 15:24:49 q+ to mention SKOS formal schema 15:25:37 TomB: beyond aliman's suggestion to put scoping at the top, we don't have a clear discussion order 15:26:06 ... in what order should we discuss? 15:26:20 -Daniel 15:26:46 ... issues 69, 70, 41 are currently in a section called new issues 15:27:27 ... There are an awful lot of issues. We should think through the order before starting the f2f 15:27:52 ... editors of primer and reference should please update the order by Friday 15:28:43 TomB: please check to see if the dependencies are still current as well 15:29:09 ... There are about 25 issues, and each is a page, and the drafts for the ref, primer, xl proposal 15:29:33 ... we need to make clear what everyone should print out to bring along 15:30:18 antoine: discuss semantics of particular peoperties and editorial issues 15:31:23 ... and make sure that issues don't get discussed twice 15:32:17 TomB: Yes, editorial issues should be at the end 15:32:49 ... we have a cluster of issues around the skos schema, 20005 working draft, modifying terms, that sort of thing 15:33:42 ... we have things like issue-40 which is non-essential. Maybe we should put the non-essential things toward the end. 15:34:00 ... We could probably edit the agenda based on the scoping discussion 15:34:49 TomB: Everyone needs to read the reference, primaer and XL, and print out each issue page 15:35:29 ... There's a draft OWL schema and the 2005 skos working draft, but they don't necessarily need to print those out 15:36:30 aliman: seanb sent around a link to a proposed formal schema for skos 15:37:01 ...the schema includes lots of documentation, making the schema itself an OWL 2 ontology 15:37:31 ... if anyone needs OWL DL schema they should take a look at it 15:37:33 aliman: nice work on the validation of the html and owl at http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080125-resources/ 15:37:35 q- 15:37:36 TOPIC: RDFA 15:38:02 TomB: reads the schedule from the agenda 15:38:21 thanks edsu, it was nice to discover an automated transform from the reference prose was possible :) 15:38:37 aliman: speaking of rdfa eh? :) 15:38:40 ACTION: Diego to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] 15:38:57 --continues 15:39:06 ACTION: Ed to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action08] 15:39:12 --continues 15:39:35 ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] 15:39:39 --continues 15:40:35 benadida: There's a new version of the syntax going out today, and this will be the last substantive change before CR 15:41:02 ... Gave an RDFa tutorial at WWW that was very well-received 15:41:15 ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] 15:41:20 ---continues 15:41:33 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] 15:41:37 --continues 15:43:04 ACTION: Jon will correct the PURL references in the recipes and update the files in W3 space 15:43:22 TOPIC: VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT 15:43:42 TomB: Working draft by June 1, 2008 15:44:04 ... Elisa will put together a list of issues for discussion at the f2f 15:44:32 ... Will send a note to her to get that ready before Friday 15:44:57 TomB: Anything else to add before the f2f? 15:46:53 Guus: A few things to discuss in the remaining time 15:47:31 ... stuck with the broadergeneric and broadertransitive specialization 15:48:14 ... We make a distinction between broader and broadertransitive and maybe that makes our lives difficult 15:48:42 SeanB: Can you explain why this is a problem. 15:49:03 Guus: If you define broader as directly below another term 15:49:43 ... then broadergeneric becomes a subproperty of broader 15:50:00 the scribe is having trouble keeping up with this conversation 15:50:59 guus: say we have, a broader b, b broader c. broaderGeneric subproperty broader. broaderGeneric equivalentProperty subClassOf. ... 15:51:12 seanb: say broader is not transitive, ... 15:51:25 thanks aliman :) oy 15:51:31 guus: intended usage is broader means direct broader, that's why we have broaderTransitive 15:51:43 antoine: but can have exception for broaderGeneric ... 15:51:53 guus: no, get two meanings of broader. 15:52:00 q+ 15:52:11 seanb: not sure I see as a problem. 15:53:42 q+ 15:53:53 ack aliman 15:54:22 dlrubin has left #swd 15:54:45 aliman: there are a couple of issues we can specifiy -- if you introduce broaderGeneric, how do you affect the semantics? And is subclassof the best way to do it 15:56:00 ... at a meeting in manchester, they're generating skos from owl, and rather than using the same vocabulary you use a transform 15:56:18 ... if you make the links explicit, you deny choice 15:56:32 ack seanb 15:56:41 ... Otherwise you allow transforms from one world to another 15:57:32 seanb: skos:broader is intended to represent direct, but that's about usage not semantics. so if defined broaderGeneric, as transitive, don't contradict semantics, but do contradict our usage conventions. 15:58:10 guus: yes, if have broaderTransitive and broader, gives impression that broader is direct link. Then if have broaderGeneric, it looks like rdfs:subClassOf. 15:59:02 ... if we do this broaderGeneric, then in favour of dropping broaderTransitive, keeping broader ambiguous, and if people want direct broader term use a query facility, like people do in OWL. 16:00:19 seanb: I'd have to do more work. I can't query for transitive closure, would have to do more work in application. 16:00:31 guus: but have to do that anyway. if work in rdf do that anyway. 16:01:20 aliman: this discussion is one of the main reasons we should consider broaderGeneric for an extension module 16:01:56 Seanb: the problem then is that this affects the reference 16:02:51 Guus: could we continue this discussion for another 10 minutes 16:02:57 -Ben_Adida 16:04:00 zakim, please list attendees 16:04:00 As of this point the attendees have been Tom_Baker, JonP, Daniel, aliman, Margherita_Sini, Antoine, [LC], SeanB, Guus, Ben_Adida 16:04:12 zakim, LC is Edsu 16:04:12 +Edsu; got it 16:04:18 zakim, please list attendees 16:04:18 As of this point the attendees have been Tom_Baker, JonP, Daniel, aliman, Margherita_Sini, Antoine, SeanB, Guus, Ben_Adida, Edsu 16:04:29 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:04:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html TomB 16:04:55 JonP, you can correct the minutes and post? 16:05:06 Yep 16:05:25 thanks! Have a good trip - see you next week 16:05:25 Thanks Tom 16:05:37 u 2 16:16:45 seanb has left #swd 16:16:46 -JonP 16:16:49 -SeanB 16:16:51 -Antoine 16:24:42 -aliman 16:24:46 -Margherita_Sini 16:26:35 -Tom_Baker 16:26:36 -Guus 16:26:42 -Edsu 16:26:43 SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended 16:26:45 Attendees were Tom_Baker, JonP, Daniel, aliman, Margherita_Sini, Antoine, SeanB, Guus, Ben_Adida, Edsu 16:33:05 edsu has left #swd 18:15:44 Zakim has left #swd