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10:30:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-svg-irc
10:30:05 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
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10:30:07 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:30:07 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now
10:30:08 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:30:08 <trackbot-ng> Date: 29 April 2008
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10:30:24 <aemmons> zakim, ??p0 is me
10:30:24 <Zakim> +aemmons; got it
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10:31:03 <ed> Zakim, ??P1 is me
10:31:03 <Zakim> +ed; got it
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10:31:25 <heycam> Zakim, ??P2 is me
10:31:25 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
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10:31:58 <anthony> zakim, ??P3 is me
10:31:58 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
10:33:03 <Zakim> +Andreas_Neumann
10:34:02 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
10:34:09 <anthony> Chair: Erik
10:34:14 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0008.html
10:34:42 <anthony> Topic: Upcoming F2F meetings
10:35:06 <anthony> ED: The first one is Sophia Antipolis
10:35:10 <anthony> ... that's already planned
10:35:18 <anthony> ... the next one is around SVG Open
10:35:23 <anthony> ... dates have been confirmed
10:35:34 <anthony> ... but we haven't really figured if out if we have anywhere to stay
10:35:57 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/NuremburgF2F2008
10:36:02 <anthony> ... but I was wondering if Chris is going to set it up or if Andrew and I have to contact Alex Adam
10:36:26 <anthony> AE: The page says it is hosted by Examotion
10:36:37 <anthony> ... Not sure if Doug contacted Alex about it
10:36:53 <anthony> ED: We should probably move it to the public wiki
10:36:56 <anthony> AE: Sure I can do it
10:37:07 <anthony> ED: So the dates are26-29
10:37:14 <anthony> ... anyone has any problems?
10:37:39 <ed> s/are26-29/are Aug 21-24 for the F2F/
10:37:50 <anthony> CM: That's the week before SVG Open
10:38:21 <anthony> ACTION: AndrewE to contact Alex Adam about the SVG Face-2-face in August
10:38:21 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - AndrewE
10:38:30 <anthony> ACTION: Emmons to contact Alex Adam about the SVG Face-2-face in August
10:38:31 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2003 - Contact Alex Adam about the SVG Face-2-face in August [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-06].
10:39:02 <anthony> ED: So the next meeting after SVG Open is TPac meeting
10:39:09 <anthony> ... October 20 - 24
10:39:26 <anthony> AG: Did Doug say where it was going to be held?
10:39:27 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0134.html
10:40:04 <anthony> ED: France somewhere
10:41:38 <anthony> AE: Doug said something about which groups to meet with at the TP
10:41:46 <anthony> ED: I did fill out some groups
10:42:00 <anthony> ... we should meet with HTML, XSL, CSS
10:42:04 <anthony> ... I filled out a lot of groups
10:42:15 <anthony> AG: It's not all confirmed though
10:42:19 <anthony> ED: Yup, it's still open
10:42:23 <anthony> ... so we can make changes to it
10:42:56 <anthony> ... I filled out HTML, WebAPI, SMIL, CDF
10:43:03 <anthony> ... I missed XSL
10:43:30 <anthony> ... so I guess we should really decide which groups to meet with
10:43:43 <anthony> ... not sure if we have to meet with WebAPI since many off us in WebAPI
10:43:50 <anthony> AE: And SMIL
10:43:58 <anthony> ... do we have any outstanding issues with SMIL
10:44:08 <anthony> ED: Yeah I guess we could skip it
10:44:13 <anthony> ... there is only so much time
10:44:19 <anthony> ... I'm not sure about the ARIA stuff
10:44:27 <anthony> ... if it will still be an issue
10:44:39 <anthony> ... or if it will be resolved before the TP
10:44:44 <anthony> AE: It looks good to me
10:45:08 <anthony> AG: The only suggestion I have is add in XSL
10:45:13 <anthony> ED: Yup, I will do that
10:45:57 <anthony> Topic: XMLHttpRequest
10:46:16 <anthony> ED: So we have requested the SVG working group to review the spec
10:46:18 <anthony> ... it's LC
10:46:25 <anthony> ... with due date June 2nd
10:46:53 <anthony> AG: Is this something we should have a small discussion in France?
10:47:02 <anthony> ED: Might be a good idea to read it in advanced
10:47:07 <anthony> ... then have a short discussion on it
10:47:24 <anthony> ... it's a pretty small spec, but it does have a fair bit of stuff in it
10:47:35 <ed> s/So we have/The WebAPI WG/
10:47:58 <anthony> ... I guess we can do as we've done in the past
10:48:10 <anthony> ... send all comments to the public mailing list
10:48:15 <anthony> ... then collate all comments
10:48:19 <anthony> ... and send them
10:48:43 <anthony> s/public mailing list/public SVG mailing list/
10:48:57 <anthony> ED: From a quick read I didn't see anything particularly bad for SVG
10:49:09 <anthony> CM: I guess the only thing is how compatible it is with getURL and postURL
10:49:11 <anthony> ED: Yup
10:49:33 <anthony> Topic: WAI-ARIA
10:49:41 <anthony> ED: We are trying to set up a telcon
10:50:06 <anthony> ... some people interested in accessibility
10:50:21 <anthony> CM: Does Opera implement any of it?
10:50:26 <anthony> ED: Some of it
10:50:35 <anthony> ... there are somethings in there which are good for SVG
10:50:46 <anthony> ... it ties in with the role attribute
10:51:03 <anthony> ... for example the various roles which make sense for XHTML
10:51:10 <anthony> ... to represent text
10:51:20 <anthony> ... there is nothing saying that this is part of map or a diagram
10:51:26 <anthony> CM: When is the telcon?
10:51:32 <anthony> ED: Still trying to decide a date
10:51:52 <anthony> ... just interested in seeing anyone from here would want to attend
10:52:16 <anthony> CM: A friend of mine who is also ding a PhD has started looking into role and would be interested in it
10:52:18 <anthony> ... than me
10:52:29 <anthony> ... dunno if anyone can come along
10:52:37 <anthony> ED: Not sure, but I can confirm that
10:52:59 <anthony> AE: We should be able to work something out
10:53:11 <anthony> ... the original email requested members of the working group
10:53:23 <anthony> ... but in this case it might be possible to work something out
10:53:34 <anthony> CM: So at this stage no time has been confirmed
10:53:43 <anthony> AE: Yeah, so looking for times and key people
10:53:53 <anthony> ED: So Andrew do you want to look into that?
10:54:07 <anthony> AE: So maybe if he joined the interest group
10:54:27 <anthony> ... do you think he would want to join the interest group?
10:54:30 <anthony> CM: Maybe
10:54:41 <anthony> ED: We need to respond to the original mail
10:54:55 <anthony> ... I'd be interested in at least attending one
10:55:38 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to respond to the WAI-ARIA email regarding the organisation of the multi-group telcon
10:55:38 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2004 - Respond to the WAI-ARIA email regarding the organisation of the multi-group telcon [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-06].
10:55:57 <anthony> Topic: SVG in CSS
10:56:33 <anthony> ED: There is a whole thread going on in the Mozilla group
10:56:53 <anthony> ... as you know Apple has proposed to add things to CSS
10:56:57 <anthony> ... similar to SVG
10:57:23 <anthony> ... there has been suggestions that these things should be done in conjunction with SVG
10:57:27 <anthony> ... instead of CSS
10:57:45 <anthony> CM: One of Robs suggestions was that things like fill, stroke be made to work in HTML
10:57:51 <anthony> ... which I think is a good idea
10:58:10 <anthony> ED: I tend to agree with that
10:58:34 <anthony> ... I'm wondering if we should say something as WG on the CSS list
10:58:51 <anthony> CM: So I guess at this stage making the CSS properties work
10:59:05 <anthony> ... hasn't been proposed to the CSS WG
10:59:35 <anthony> ED: I don't know if it is best coming from a company or a working group
10:59:46 <anthony> ... but I should do something about this
11:00:02 <anthony> CM: I guess it would be good if you weighed in on the thread
11:00:12 <anthony> ED: I would love to see the fill and stroke work in HTML
11:00:27 <anthony> ... seems strange to not use the definitions used already in SVG
11:00:57 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to send an email to the CSS list regarding SVG in CSS
11:00:57 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2005 - Send an email to the CSS list regarding SVG in CSS [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-06].
11:01:33 <anthony> Topic: SVG in HTML requirements TBD
11:02:21 <anthony> AE: Do you have link to the current requirements?
11:02:46 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html
11:03:06 <anthony> ED: These are not decided requirements these are collections of what people thought
11:03:42 <anthony> ... might be good to have Chris and Doug here on this
11:03:49 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
11:04:04 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
11:04:04 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-svg-irc#T11-04-04
11:04:39 <heycam> CM: Maciej argues that if you want to put SVG in HTML, then the main reason is so that you can use HTML-like (non-XML) syntax, since otherwise you could just use XHTML+SVG, which works already.
11:04:59 <anthony> CM: So I wonder what people think of that argument
11:05:09 <anthony> ... is it fundamental, does it have merit?
11:05:18 <Zakim> +ChrisL
11:05:26 <anthony> AE: I thought the main debate was around Text/HTML
11:05:48 <anthony> ... so the reason for getting to main stream syntax was because of the lack of support for XHTML
11:05:52 <anthony> ... by MS
11:06:14 <anthony> CL: So because MS doesn't do XHTML putting in SVG wont make them do it either
11:06:54 <anthony> ED: If you have blogging software too that outputs something that is not well formed XHTML and you try to put in SVG inline
11:07:02 <anthony> ... it could work if we put in something like this
11:07:07 <anthony> CL: How would it work?
11:07:38 <anthony> ED: It would work for those people that would SVG inline
11:07:51 <anthony> CL: If you have inline SVG it will not work
11:08:03 <anthony> ... but for other browers it will work if you have XHTML
11:08:09 <ChrisL> MS don't implement xhtml. They don't do SVG either. Whether the SVG is in XML syntax or in some other syntax, it won't suddenly work
11:09:28 <ChrisL> there are three things : 1) the syntax used 2) the internet media type 3) meta element
11:10:52 <anthony> CL: meta type overrides media type in IE
11:11:17 <ChrisL> which is against what the TAG says
11:11:29 <anthony> ... if you want anything to work in I.E. you already need a lot of adaptation
11:11:50 <ChrisL> bottom line, if you want something to work in IE, there is a lot of adaptation needed
11:12:09 <anthony> AE: So with Heycams original question is in the reason you want SVG in HTML syntax
11:13:49 <aemmons> AE: Is not to have the same syntax as text/html but because xhtml is not used as widely as text/html
11:13:58 <anthony> AN: I think one problem is that they don't see the web is also tools as well
11:14:08 <ChrisL> no authorig tols will generate or import an undefined, non-XML syntax for SVG
11:14:17 <anthony> ... makes it harder for browsers to implement
11:14:45 <anthony> CL: There is nothing to say this fragment is XML
11:15:03 <anthony> ... if there was an extension element similar to what Doug proposed
11:15:17 <anthony> ... then copy and paste from tools could be done
11:15:46 <anthony> AE: So we want to come up with a list of requirements
11:15:52 <aemmons> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html
11:16:38 <anthony> CL: So it's like you are or you aren't. It's either XML or it's not
11:16:45 <anthony> ... basically it's in a different syntax then
11:16:52 <anthony> ... and it needs to be defined then
11:16:59 <anthony> CM: What about a subset of XML
11:17:12 <anthony> CL: So for input a subset is probably fine
11:17:18 <anthony> ... for export it's probably not good
11:17:40 <anthony> CL: PIs are already ignored
11:18:02 <anthony> CM: You can put them anywhere, inside content
11:18:33 <anthony> CL: As soon as you have unquoted attribute values
11:18:45 <anthony> ... then all the SVG implementations need to start accepting this as well
11:19:01 <anthony> ... you also need to say how do you know when you've reached the end of the attribute
11:19:17 <anthony> ... but if you have spaces and other things, then how do you know
11:19:38 <anthony> CM: HTML5 has some defined method to define an end of an attribute
11:20:00 <anthony> CL: It doesn't. HTML5 assumes you know all of HTML5 and you have all these complex rules
11:20:06 <anthony> ... to figure it out
11:20:15 <anthony> ... you need to have this case by case
11:20:23 <anthony> ... you don't have any extensibility at this point
11:20:33 <anthony> ... you can't skip them silently
11:20:38 <anthony> CM: I can see that difference
11:20:54 <anthony> ... but I was under the impression that attributes were not in that case
11:21:02 <anthony> ED: I read the parser of HTML5
11:21:14 <anthony> ... and it uses states to determine where you are
11:21:21 <anthony> ... they use a space and something else
11:21:31 <anthony> ... to determine the end of an attribute
11:21:45 <anthony> CL: How would that work in SVG when attributes have spaces
11:22:12 <anthony> CM: I think it's maybe not as complex as you think
11:22:15 <anthony> CL: I think it is
11:22:28 <anthony> ... I've seen earlier problems with HTML
11:22:49 <anthony> ... at the moment it works as defined
11:23:01 <anthony> ... and any deviation from that means that you can't copy and paste
11:23:11 <anthony> ... between implementations
11:23:29 <anthony> ED: Sounds like we are almost resolving here to not have unquoted attribute values
11:23:46 <anthony> AE: It's more of a higher level
11:24:20 <anthony> CM: Or a subset
11:24:56 <ChrisL> yes, i would argue strongly to not allow unquoted attribute values, so that content can be pasted back into authoring tools for future editing, or pasted into new content without change.
11:25:23 <ChrisL> also, and unquoted syntax meansd authors have to remember which atteras can be safely unquoted and which can not
11:25:28 <anthony> AE: Seems like the first two points that Doug has covers what you are talking about
11:26:11 <anthony> ... so this is a discussion page to see what ideas we have that overlap
11:26:33 <anthony> CL: We could make several proposals
11:26:47 <anthony> ... one is you use an island to allow XML
11:26:56 <anthony> ... another is you only use it in XHTML
11:27:42 <ChrisL> both of those options would keep the svg actually compatible with all existing svg renderers and authoring tools
11:28:02 <anthony> CM: I think his underlaying reason is not taking the fallback option
11:28:37 <anthony> ... if the UA hasn't implemented SVG in HTML, then the UA may not understand it then somethings may wrongly appear
11:28:51 <anthony> CL: We don't have element content that is meaningless
11:29:12 <anthony> ... in fact if you end up displaying SVG confusing it with HTML
11:29:19 <anthony> ... then you will see some text
11:29:27 <anthony> ... with anchors in it
11:29:35 <anthony> ... and that was by design
11:29:54 <ChrisL> You will notice that SVG avoided having meaningless numbers as element content. pretty much the only element content iis human readable text. the rest of it is in attributes
11:30:18 <anthony> AE: So now we are getting to does requirement of a fallback
11:30:38 <anthony> ... so you can provide fallbacks like flash, text, another image
11:30:50 <anthony> CL: I do think you should provide fallbacks
11:31:00 <anthony> ... in HTML there is object, which uses nesting
11:31:12 <anthony> ED: That still doesn't really work in I.E.
11:31:46 <anthony> CL: It took a while for vendors to figure out how it works correctly
11:32:04 <anthony> AE: So Doug's other point was unrestricted growth
11:32:17 <anthony> ... if you cover requirement 1 and 2, then it seems to be covered by that
11:32:36 <anthony> ED: I would like Doug's 1st requirement put a bit stronger
11:33:04 <anthony> ... is about having it render, having the same DOM
11:37:32 <aemmons> Should allow for SVG Fonts to be included in HTML, and ideally to be usable in HTML text.
11:38:39 <aemmons> Should allow for the creation of scripted content that works identically for inline SVG and standalone SVG (though there may be certain limitations placed on the script author). This may entail SVG elements be in the SVG namespace in the DOM.
11:38:43 <anthony> AE: So there'd need to be a way for this to work outside the island
11:39:09 <anthony> CL: Want it so it could be used with HTML and other things
11:39:10 <ChrisL> It should; its indirected through a property for exactly that reason
11:39:41 <ChrisL> so it should work for svfg fonts on html via css, and there are two implementations that do this
11:39:45 <anthony> ED: I agree with that
11:39:52 <ChrisL> s/svfg/svg/
11:39:58 <anthony> ... not sure about the certain limitations
11:40:01 <aemmons> Should have a clean model for how the various DOM interfaces work together.
11:40:09 <anthony> ... would be good if there are a few examples there
11:40:16 <anthony> CM: Not sure what the last one means
11:40:34 <anthony> CL: I assume what it means is the DOM interfaces should work the way they currently do
11:40:50 <anthony> ... if that what it means it should be expressed more clearly
11:41:00 <anthony> ... there are no barriers really
11:41:16 <anthony> ... when you parse HTML you get an XML DOM
11:41:33 <anthony> AE: So the island is more from the parser point of view
11:41:37 <ChrisL> if it means 'the existing dom methods continue to work' then I agree
11:41:57 <ChrisL> s/parse HTML/parse tag-soup HTML5/
11:42:03 <aemmons> From Maciej:
11:42:04 <aemmons> #  Existing pages must not break (to a significant extent), even if they are currently using crazy broken syntax. 
11:42:16 <anthony> AE: Moving into Maciej's requirements
11:42:38 <anthony> CL: This is more a proof of concept
11:43:01 <anthony> CM: In Ian's large email he did quote some sites that had some broken syntax
11:43:39 <anthony> ... when I asked Ian about the sites asked in that email he said they were representative of the uses of the crazy SVG things
11:43:46 <anthony> ... where he doesn't want the rendering to change
11:44:06 <anthony> ... but I haven't read through the whole email
11:44:19 <anthony> ... I think it might be worth reading the top bit
11:46:07 <ChrisL> Of course its trivial to produce a test page that bady misuses something like svg syntax, if all you want is a discussion point or exhibit. if you want an existing page that uses svg *and renders as svg currently* then the amount of broken svg content with a non-xml syntax out there is very small
11:47:40 <anthony> AN: We have the opportunity to have more stricter conformance from the browers
11:47:58 <anthony> ... the market share of alternative browsers is rising
11:48:05 <anthony> ... I.E. is dropping
11:48:51 <aneumann> AN: and people won't ignore Firefox (with somewhere between 25 and 50%) if it is stricter in conformance
11:49:20 <heycam> CM: i think the argument about breaking pages is a subjective one.  if there is a single page with weirdo svg in it that would break, then perhaps it is ok.
11:49:29 <aemmons> Any constructs added inline to text/html must specify a tolerant error handling model, for the following reasons:
11:49:41 <anthony> AE: The last requirement is this one here
11:50:17 <anthony> ... so that seems to be the main argument
11:50:23 <anthony> ... to not have an XML island
11:50:56 <anthony> ED: No one has specified where the draconian handling would be
11:51:27 <anthony> CL: The XML would have two children, one which is XML and one which is fallback
11:51:37 <anthony> ... if XML is not understood then use fallback
11:51:45 <anthony> ... or if XML is not well formed
11:51:49 <anthony> ... then use the fallback
11:51:58 <anthony> ... so you hand of the subtree to the XML parser
11:52:07 <anthony> ... and if it returns an error then you go to the fallback
11:52:26 <anthony> AN: So if you didn't define a fallback then would have some default rendering?
11:52:36 <anthony> CL: Perhaps nothing is rendered
11:52:46 <anthony> ED: In a legacy browser you'd get the text
11:52:49 <anthony> CL: That's right
11:53:06 <anthony> ... given that XML tag would have a common name, you could style that
11:53:17 <anthony> ... and hide it
11:53:26 <ChrisL> you could easily make a stylesheet to hide the xml part if needed
11:53:47 <anthony> AN: I think one of the reasons for tag soup is none of the browsers don't display the error messages well enough
11:54:00 <anthony> ... I.E. has the "!" to show the error
11:54:12 <anthony> ... it would be a good idea to have something like this for HTML and SVG as well
11:54:34 <anthony> ... would be a good idea to be able to see the error rather than open up a console
11:54:46 <anthony> CL: The browsers get used as authoring preview tools
11:54:57 <anthony> ... they have a preview mode
11:55:14 <anthony> ... that shows errors and warnings
11:55:25 <anthony> ... if the error is going to give you problems
11:55:38 <anthony> ... then they'll fix it
11:55:59 <anthony> ... it's knowing what the consequences are
11:56:22 <anthony> AE: It sounds to me like we could keep the last requirement
11:56:48 <anthony> ... and we have a reasonable way of satisfying it 
11:57:30 <anthony> ED: So I guess we have some solid requirements
11:57:38 <anthony> ... we should update the wiki from this discussion
11:57:46 <anthony> ... and try to make a good proposal
11:57:58 <anthony> AE: Should we do up the requirements?
11:58:07 <anthony> CL: I think we need to write up the requirements better first
11:58:22 <anthony> ... I don't think we need to send them out separately
11:58:47 <anthony> ED: Since we can't edit the wiki (atm) will be have to wait until Doug gets back
11:59:10 <anthony> AE: my impressing is that there is a second stage to enable editing
11:59:19 <anthony> ... if you send an email to him
11:59:46 <anthony> ... and copy me
12:00:18 <anthony> ACTION: Emmons to update the wiki with the SVG in HTML requirements discussed
12:00:18 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2006 - Update the wiki with the SVG in HTML requirements discussed [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-06].
12:01:20 <ChrisL> Topic: SVG Open
12:02:06 <Zakim> -heycam
12:03:01 <ChrisL> Andreas says that paper review is about to start
12:03:02 <Zakim> -ed
12:03:06 <Zakim> -ChrisL
12:03:10 <Zakim> -aemmons
12:03:13 <Zakim> -Andreas_Neumann
12:03:18 <aneumann> aneumann has left #svg
12:04:57 <Zakim> -anthony
12:04:58 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:04:59 <Zakim> Attendees were aemmons, ed, heycam, anthony, Andreas_Neumann, ChrisL
12:05:41 <anthony> zakim, bye
12:05:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
12:07:34 <anthony> rrsagent, make minutes
12:07:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-svg-minutes.html anthony