14:01:21 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 14:01:21 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-irc 14:01:23 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:01:23 Zakim has joined #bpwg 14:01:25 Zakim, this will be BPWG 14:01:25 ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start now 14:01:26 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 14:01:26 Date: 29 April 2008 14:01:34 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0044.html 14:01:36 zakim, code? 14:01:36 the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 14:01:38 Chair: francois 14:01:45 Regrets: Magnus, AndrewS 14:01:50 Regrets+ Bryan 14:02:11 hgerlach has joined #bpwg 14:02:39 rob has joined #bpwg 14:02:41 MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started 14:02:48 + +0207287aaaa 14:02:49 +hgerlach 14:02:59 hi 14:03:03 zakim, aaaa is me 14:03:03 +rob; got it 14:03:11 +jo 14:03:31 SeanP has joined #bpwg 14:03:37 +francois 14:03:48 +Diego_La_Monica 14:04:08 zakim, Deigo_La_Monica is really me 14:04:08 sorry, MartinJ, I do not recognize a party named 'Deigo_La_Monica' 14:04:31 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:04:31 On the phone I see hgerlach, rob, jo, francois, Diego_La_Monica 14:04:38 zakim, Deigo_La_Monica is really MartinJ 14:04:38 sorry, francois, I do not recognize a party named 'Deigo_La_Monica' 14:04:46 zakim, Diego_La_Monica is really MartinJ 14:04:46 +MartinJ; got it 14:04:49 zakim, diego_la_monica is really martinj 14:04:49 sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'diego_la_monica' 14:05:25 +SeanP 14:05:56 I can do it 14:05:58 scribe: Jo 14:06:08 scribenick: jo 14:06:10 Ok, I defer to Jo 14:06:25 s/Ok, I defer to Jo// 14:06:41 s/hi// 14:07:00 Topic: Ajax / XHR and Content Transformation 14:07:00 Topic: Ajax/XHR calls and CT 14:07:10 s/Topic: Ajax/XHR calls and CT// 14:07:12 s/Topic: Ajax/XHR calls and CT// 14:07:26 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0042.html discussion re Ajax/XHR calls 14:08:26 fd: conclusion is that a proxy should examine the content of the page it receives and have a lot of scripts 14:08:30 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 1.1: in §4.4, add a bullet point to the list of heuristics that says "examination of the content reveals that the page contains client-side scripts that may break if the page gets adapted" 14:09:34 +1 14:09:38 q+ 14:09:42 ack jo 14:10:40 jo: wonders if adding the heuristic adds value, though it is obviously true, it doesn't say how to formulate a conclusion 14:11:05 fd: that's also true of the other heuristics we enumerate in the same section 14:11:55 q+ to say that if a page contains script then usually it does need transforming! 14:13:52 ack rob 14:13:52 rob, you wanted to say that if a page contains script then usually it does need transforming! 14:14:23 -MartinJ 14:14:56 +q 14:15:06 jo: I am thinking that we should not be doing product design and we need to have a greater degree of feedback from real vendors 14:15:17 +MartinJ 14:15:32 q+ 14:15:34 rob: usually we do the scripting on behalf of the phone but where the phone is script capable we do let it through 14:15:39 ack hgerlach 14:16:11 heiko: there was an open ajax workshop, were there any results 14:16:27 fd: I don' think there was anything related to CT 14:16:39 ack SeanP 14:17:19 seanp: there are a couple of possibilities - e.g. a proxy runs the scripts or passes them through, there may also be some transformation 14:17:57 ... e.g. if link rewriting is done and some of the links in the Javascript might need to be rewritten, it might be smart enough to rewrite those too 14:18:20 q+ to suggest we resolve to put it in as it does no harm 14:18:33 ack jo 14:18:33 jo, you wanted to suggest we resolve to put it in as it does no harm 14:18:38 seanP: that was just by way of clarification not a proposed text 14:19:14 jo: let's just put it in 14:19:28 fd: I think what actually happens is out of scope 14:19:40 rob: mention is fine 14:19:46 +q 14:19:48 +1 for mentioning as a heuristic 14:20:01 ... the bit that said if there is script don't transform would be wrong 14:20:09 +1 14:20:20 +1 14:20:22 ack hgerlach 14:21:01 RESOLUTION 1.1: in §4.4, add a bullet point to the list of heuristics that says "examination of the content reveals that the page contains client-side scripts that may mis-operate if the page gets adapted" 14:21:20 [note that the word "break" has been transformed] 14:21:59 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 2.3: in §???, "Asynchronous HTTP requests sent from within a Web page (e.g. XHR calls) SHOULD include a no-transform directive" 14:22:40 fd: another resolution related to that is to do with adding a no-transform directive to requests, not sure where to put it 14:22:58 ... initially I wanted to say something about content types etc. 14:23:23 ... but Jo persuaded me that this was not right 14:23:40 s/persuaded/convinced/ 14:23:49 q+ 14:23:53 ack jo 14:24:40 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 2.3: in 4.1.1, "Asynchronous HTTP requests sent from within a Web page (e.g. XHR calls) SHOULD include a no-transform directive" as a typical example 14:24:43 jo: lets stick it in 4.1.1 as an example of when you might do that 14:25:00 q+ to say that MAY is better 14:25:05 ack jo 14:25:05 jo, you wanted to say that MAY is better 14:25:08 ack me 14:25:22 rob: we mean a mobile friendly Web page 14:26:18 +1 for MAY 14:26:29 +1 14:26:40 jo: I think this would be text aloing the lines of ... MAY ... if it does not wish the request or the response to be altered by a CT proxy 14:27:19 fd: 14:27:19 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 2.3: in 4.1.1, "As an example of this, a web page sending asynchronous HTTP requests (e.g. XHR calls) may include a no-transform directive if it doesn't want the message to be transformed" 14:27:31 +1 14:27:32 +1 14:27:35 +1 14:27:38 s/aloing/along/ 14:27:39 +1 14:27:49 +1 14:27:50 RESOLUTION 2.3: in 4.1.1, "As an example of this, a web page sending asynchronous HTTP requests (e.g. XHR calls) may include a no-transform directive if it doesn't want the message to be transformed" 14:29:08 fd: let's not discuss the content types for transformation (ACTION-725) we can do that later 14:29:30 fd: I also had another one one which no longer makes sense so let's drop it 14:30:35 ... as things stand there is no way for the server or a proxy to know whether the request comes from the browser or from XHR and it might be worth pointing out to them as a LCC the need to distinguish XHR calls (Jo already mentioned this to Chaals) 14:30:54 ... I am not sure the distinction needs to be made ... 14:31:05 ... should we do this? 14:31:22 q+ 14:31:23 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: FD to draft a note to the WG and alert them to this discussion 14:31:34 ack r 14:31:45 rob: I'm not sure there is anything to say about it 14:32:09 ... not sure there is any need to distinguish 14:32:44 ... as long as there is something that identifies that this is part of the session and all responses come with their own content types which is what is important to us 14:33:52 jo: don't see why not, it's not a big deal, they can ignore it if they want 14:34:22 0 14:34:23 ACTION: daoust to write to the XHR folks and point out a possible need to identify that a requst comes from script 14:34:23 Created ACTION-749 - Write to the XHR folks and point out a possible need to identify that a requst comes from script [on François Daoust - due 2008-05-06]. 14:34:28 +1 proposed -1others 14:35:01 +1 to writing to XHR folks 14:35:04 close ACTION-718 14:35:04 ACTION-718 Summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT closed 14:35:09 q+ 14:35:12 close ACTION-739 14:35:12 ACTION-739 Summarize (again) discussion on Ajax/XHR and propose some resolutions closed 14:35:22 ack h 14:36:38 heiko: what about the content type part of ACTION-739 14:36:51 fd: we will discuss this under ACTION-725 on Sean 14:37:02 Topic: format of via header comment 14:37:12 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0040.html fd's proposal 14:38:44 fd: we wanted to distinguish CT proxy from proxy - when were discussing this in the context of POWDER we said it would point to a resource describing what it would do 14:39:10 ... bryan pointed out in Seoul that just a flag would be useful 14:39:24 ... this could link to a powder resource when we get to that 14:39:50 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: format of the VIA header comments: [a URI to a POWDER resource that describes the CT-proxy's capabilities using the vocabulary-to-be when we're ready to switch to POWDER or] the CT 14:39:50 namespace's URI "http://www.w3.org/2008/04/ct#". Intention to transform must be indicated using the "active" property: "http://www.w3.org/2008/04/ct#active". 14:39:53 ... or a namespace id which just means "I am a transformation proxy" 14:40:21 q+ to ask how to distinguish old style comments from new style comments when this is not a namespace any more 14:40:31 ack jo 14:40:31 jo, you wanted to ask how to distinguish old style comments from new style comments when this is not a namespace any more 14:42:03 jo: worried about forward compatibility and how you will know to distinguish a flag from a link to some powder resource 14:42:17 fd: it will be different URI 14:42:22 jo: I guess we should say so 14:42:35 fd: yes, 14:44:21 jo: maybe we should have a query string so we could have name / value pairs - just using a fragment ID may not be vvery extensible/flexible 14:44:45 fd: perhaps we need more investigation if we don't know whether this is goofd practice or not 14:44:52 s/goofd/good/ 14:44:59 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: format of the VIA header comments: either the URI "http://www.w3.org/2008/04/ct", a URI derived from this one (that defines properties such as "active"), or a URI to a POWDER resource that describes the capabilities of the proxy 14:45:13 +1 14:45:18 +1 14:45:30 +1 14:45:45 fd: I will investigate how to be able to define multiple properties in the same URI 14:46:15 ACTION: daoust to investigate how to add multiple property/values to the URI 14:46:15 Created ACTION-750 - Investigate how to add multiple property/values to the URI [on François Daoust - due 2008-05-06]. 14:46:28 RESOLUTION: format of the VIA header comments: either the URI "http://www.w3.org/2008/04/ct", a URI derived from this one (that defines properties such as "active"), or a URI to a POWDER resource that describes the capabilities of the proxy 14:47:26 close ACTION-741 14:47:26 ACTION-741 Write a concrete proposal on use of via header closed 14:47:32 close ACTION-742 14:47:32 ACTION-742 Write some concrete proposal on the format of the HTTP Via comment to advertise the CT-proxy's presence (and possibly intention to transform) closed 14:47:57 Topic: Discussion on Session vs Persistent sessions (yada yada) 14:48:05 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0036.html fd's proposal 14:48:32 fd: this all started as a discussion of what is in or out of scope 14:48:49 ... and went into a discussion of "other arrangements" 14:49:24 ... I don't understand what the distinction is between session settings and persistent settings so my proposal is to rewrite 3.2.1 14:49:34 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Rewrite §3.2.1 roughly based on what it was before: "They MAY also provide the ability for their users to make a persistent expression of preferences." 14:49:48 ... "persistent or semi-persistent expression of preferences" 14:50:11 ... to what it was before, I don't think we need to make a distinction 14:50:14 I'm fine with that. 14:50:21 +1 14:50:24 +1 14:50:26 +1 14:50:30 +1 14:50:31 0 14:50:46 RESOLUTION: Rewrite §3.2.1 roughly based on what it was before: "They MAY also provide the ability for their users to make a persistent expression of preferences." 14:51:55 jo: notes that we are avoiding having a discussion on something that might reveal important things but for now, let's do it your way fd 14:52:27 Topic: Sending two requests requests 4.1.2 14:52:51 fd: in theory GET is idempotent so it should not matter 14:53:15 ... if you send more than one request. In practice I listed a number of cases where this is not true 14:53:22 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0043.html discussion 14:54:00 fd: for POSTs this is of course a problem, so I don't think we need to emphasize this point 14:54:09 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 1.1: at the end of §4.1.2, add "The proxy MUST NOT issue a POST/PUT request with altered headers when the response to the 14:54:09 unaltered POST/PUT request contains an HTTP status code 200" 14:54:09 (in other words, it may only send the altered request for a POST/PUT request when the unaltered one was refused with a clear 406) 14:55:24 q+ 14:55:32 ack hgerlach 14:55:56 fd: in most cases the proxy will already know how to interact with the server by the time it gets to sending a POST 14:56:05 heiko: what about one time URLs? 14:56:19 fd: yeah, we are just talking about POSTs for now 14:56:54 ... but yes we should make the point that the proxy should strive always to send only one GET request? 14:57:01 s/?// 14:57:12 +1 14:57:16 +1 14:57:22 +1 14:57:25 0 14:57:40 +1 14:57:49 RESOLUTION 1.1: at the end of §4.1.2, add "The proxy MUST NOT issue a POST/PUT request with altered headers when the response to the unaltered POST/PUT request contains an HTTP status code 200" (in other words, it may only send the altered request for a POST/PUT request when the unaltered one was refused with a clear 406) 14:58:06 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 1.2.a: at the end of §4.1.2, add a "The theoretical idempotency of GET requests is unfortunately not always respected in practice. Not to break existing content, the proxy SHOULD strive to send only one request whenever possible." 14:58:14 fd: let's see if we can resolve on the next one, which speaks to Heiko's last point 14:58:48 PROPOSED RESOLUTION 1.2.a: at the end of §4.1.2, add a "The theoretical idempotency of GET requests is unfortunately not always respected in practice. Not to break existing content, the proxy SHOULD send only one request." 15:00:04 +1 15:02:03 +1 15:02:08 RESOLUTION at the end of §4.1.2, add a "The theoretical idempotency of GET requests is unfortunately not always respected in practice. Not to break existing content, the proxy SHOULD send only one request." 15:02:58 ACTION: daoust to make sure that we are clear about idempotency and side-effect freedome etc. per Dom's original illuminating point about this section 15:02:59 Created ACTION-751 - Make sure that we are clear about idempotency and side-effect freedome etc. per Dom's original illuminating point about this section [on François Daoust - due 2008-05-06]. 15:04:26 fd: next time we will discuss Sean's contribution and we also need to do the remainder of the poinst on the agenda so please study these points 15:04:34 -MartinJ 15:04:38 -rob 15:04:38 -francois 15:04:43 -jo 15:04:47 -SeanP 15:04:56 Zakim, list attendees 15:05:00 s/poinst/points/ 15:05:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:05:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html francois 15:05:11 As of this point the attendees have been +0207287aaaa, hgerlach, rob, jo, francois, MartinJ, SeanP 15:06:29 sorry I was interrupted by my Boss:-) 15:06:30 Cheers 15:06:34 Present: Heiko, Jo, Francois, MartinJ, SeanP 15:06:36 -hgerlach 15:06:37 MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended 15:06:39 Attendees were +0207287aaaa, hgerlach, rob, jo, francois, MartinJ, SeanP 15:06:59 s/sorry I was interrupted by my Boss:-)// 15:07:08 s/Cheers// 15:07:17 s/I can do it// 15:08:08 s/topic: Ajax\/XHR calls and CT// 15:08:26 s/Topic: Ajax\/XHR calls and CT// 15:08:50 rrsagent, make minutes 15:08:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:09:02 rob has left #bpwg 15:09:34 s/Topic: Ajax// 15:09:48 s/XHR calls and CT// 15:09:56 rrsagent, make minutes 15:09:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:10:54 s/Topic: Ajax//g 15:11:07 s/XHR calls and CT//g 15:11:14 rrsagent, make minutes 15:11:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:13:00 s/^/ XHR// 15:13:10 rrsagent. make minutes 15:13:23 s/rrsagent. make minutes// 15:13:31 rrsagent, make minutes 15:13:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:16:00 it should be that s.kkk.lll. works 15:16:18 s/it should be that s.kkk.lll. works// 15:17:11 s/ XHR and Content Transformation/Ajax XHR and Content Transformation/ 15:17:29 s./Ajax.Topic: . 15:17:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:17:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:23:26 s|s./Ajax.Topic: .|| 15:23:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:23:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:24:00 s|s/^/ XHR// 15:24:12 s|s/\///|| 15:24:24 s|s/topic: Ajax\///|| 15:24:54 s|s////|| 15:25:03 s|s////|| 15:25:31 s|/Ajax XHR and Content Transformation|Topic: Ajax, XHR and Content Transformation| 15:26:04 rrsagent, make minutes 15:26:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:27:22 s/s|s// 15:27:46 s|s/^/ XHR//|| 15:28:05 s|/^/ XHR//|| 15:28:11 rrsagent, make minutes 15:28:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:29:50 Present+ Rob 15:29:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:29:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:31:38 s/RESOLUTION 2.3: in 4.1.1/RESOLUTION: In 4.1.1/ 15:32:14 s/RESOLUTION 1.1: a/RESOLUTION: a/ 15:32:51 s/RESOLUTION at the end /RESOLUTION: at the end / 15:33:05 rrsagent, make minutes 15:33:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:34:01 s/RESOLUTION 1.1: in/RESOLUTION: in/ 15:34:34 s/RESOLUTION at the end /RESOLUTION: at the end / 15:34:39 rrsagent, make minutes 15:34:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:36:07 s|s/RESOLUTION: at the end /RESOLUTION: at the end /|| 15:36:39 s|RESOLUTION at the end of §4.1.2, add a|RESOLUTION: at the end of §4.1.2, add a 15:36:45 rrsagent, make minutes 15:36:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:37:58 s/s|RESOLUTION at the end of §4.1.2, add a|RESOLUTION: at the end of §4.1.2, add a// 15:38:09 rrsagent, make minutes 15:38:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:41:46 s/RESOLUTION at the end of/RESOLUTION: at the end of/ 15:42:04 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:42:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-bpwg-minutes.html francois