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14:54:54 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:54:54 <Norm> Date: 24 Apr 2008
14:54:54 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/04/24-agenda
14:54:54 <Norm> Meeting: 109
14:54:54 <Norm> Chair: Norm
14:54:55 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
14:54:57 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
14:55:58 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
14:58:14 <richard> richard has joined #xproc
14:58:50 <richard> i'll be phoning in a couple of minutes...
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14:59:32 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:33 <Zakim> +Norm
15:00:13 <Zakim> +Vojtech
15:00:15 <Zakim> -Vojtech
15:00:15 <Zakim> +Vojtech
15:00:51 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
15:01:49 <Norm> Regrets: Alessandro, Rui
15:02:01 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
15:02:17 <Zakim> +??P31
15:02:19 <richard> zakim, ? isme
15:02:19 <Zakim> I don't understand '? isme', richard
15:02:21 <richard> zakim, ? is me
15:02:21 <Zakim> +richard; got it
15:02:58 <Zakim> +alexmilowski
15:03:48 <AndrewF> AndrewF has joined #xproc
15:04:39 <Zakim> +??P0
15:04:43 <AndrewF> zakim, ? is Andrew
15:04:43 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
15:04:56 <Norm> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Vojtech, PGrosso, richard, alexmilowski, Andrew
15:05:07 <Norm> Present: Norm, Vojtech, Paul, Richard, Alex, Andrew
15:05:43 <ht> ht has joined #xproc
15:05:46 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:05:46 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/04/24-agenda
15:05:57 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
15:05:57 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
15:05:58 <Zakim> +Ht
15:06:01 <Norm> Norm: I'd like to add this morning's email threads
15:06:20 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:06:20 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/04/17-minutes
15:06:30 <Norm> Accepted.
15:06:39 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: telcon 1 May 2008?
15:06:52 <Norm> Vojtech gives regrets.
15:07:11 <Norm> Topic: Consideration of the proposed next working draft. 
15:07:21 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html
15:07:42 <Norm> No questions or comments.
15:08:00 <Norm> Henry will provide updated DTDs and W3C XML Schemas before 1 May.
15:08:13 <Norm> Topic: Default context for options and variables
15:08:19 <Norm> Norm attempts to summarize
15:10:38 <Norm> Norm: We could allow a sequence, but on balance I'd rather not.
15:10:55 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/546c6c1c0804230152q5b9eccc0ta1737307cc143e32@mail.gmail.com
15:11:25 <Norm> Norm: If we leave it an error now, we can always make it not an error later.
15:11:57 <Norm> Norm: Does anyone want to argue for a change?
15:12:03 <Norm> None heard, the status quo prevails.
15:12:24 <Norm> Topic: p:declare-step/p:import in p:declare-step (for atomic steps)
15:12:28 <Norm> Norm summarizes.
15:13:34 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/m24p9rv5jq.fsf@nwalsh.com
15:13:34 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-617
15:13:34 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:13:36 <Zakim> +MSM
15:13:45 <Norm> Henry: Sounds right to me
15:14:00 <Norm> Present: Norm, Vojtech, Paul, Richard, Alex, Andrew, Michael [xx:13]
15:14:47 <Norm> Proposed: Make the changes Norm suggests.
15:14:54 <Norm> Accepted.
15:15:22 <Norm> Topic: Exclude prefixes on p:inline
15:16:02 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/f5bmynjnz1v.fsf@hildegard.inf.ed.ac.uk
15:16:12 <Norm> Henry: It's a shameless lift from XSLT 2.0, very lightly edited.
15:16:29 <Norm> ...If we haven't changed our minds about doing this, the only thing that really requires peoples attention is the inventory of namespaces
15:16:52 <Norm> ...whcih are excluded by definition. I chose to exclude the two that might actually appear at the top-level in a pipeline.
15:17:07 <Norm> ...I excldued the error namespace and the instance prefix, because I don't think those are going to occur.
15:18:33 <Norm> Norm: I don't think the .../xproc/1.0 "namespace" is every going to be bound.
15:18:44 <MSM> What if my pipeline is creating a pipeline?
15:19:40 <Norm> Norm is confused about stripping the namespace.
15:20:06 <Norm> Henry: If you want to use the namespace, you can add it back in another step.
15:20:49 <Norm> Henry: Eliminates any namespace on every node on the tree.
15:21:00 <Norm> Alex: But it gets put *back in* by namespace fixup.
15:21:36 <Norm> Henry: Yeah, I guess that works.
15:22:01 <Norm> Norm: Bah. Do we really need to do this? 
15:22:44 <Norm> Alex: I think it's a very good idea. There are lots of situations where if you want to inline something, having a namespace declaration could be bad for the end result. There are environments where extra namespaces mean different things. IE freaks out on HTML with namespace declarations, for example.
15:22:55 <Norm> ...It may be an edge case, but it's a crucial edge case.
15:22:55 <MSM> [I don't understand Henry's argument that you MUST remove it everywhere.  Why not just say the child of p:inline doesn't inherit any of the specified bindings, so that if it rebinds them they will be there.
15:23:07 <Norm> Henry: When you need it, you really need it.
15:23:12 <Norm> Alex: And I think it's easy to describe.
15:23:55 <Norm> Alex: Getting p:inline right is real work.
15:24:11 <Norm> Michael: Why do you have to remove them everywhere? 
15:24:30 <Norm> Henry: There's no gaurantee that the datamodel that you have is efficiently implemented. So removing an in-scope namespace from my parent doesn't remove it from me.
15:24:55 <Norm> Michael: You have to recompute them, but I think it's a mistake to confuse information with APIs.
15:25:27 <Norm> Henry: It appears to only remove it in one place, but that's because if you have a literal XML fragment in your XSLT stylesheet, the removal applies to all of them..
15:25:29 <Norm> s/.././
15:26:37 <Norm> Some discussion of the XSLT case.
15:27:17 <Norm> Richard: The XSLT case is copying nodes from the stylesheet to the result. So they aren't copied.
15:27:40 <Norm> Henry: Right, so it's the same for us. Up until this point, there was no necessity to copy and now there is.
15:29:11 <Norm> Some discussion of whether nodes that are 'eq' to each other can get passed to different steps.
15:30:52 <Norm> Richard: I wonder if there's a whole can of worms addressed here.
15:30:59 <Norm> s/addressed/unaddressed/
15:31:12 <Norm> Henry: I think anyone who uses any kind of stateful data model doesn't have a problem here.
15:32:31 <Norm> Richard: Suppose you ahve a sequence and the thing you do is count the union of the nodes in the sequence. 
15:32:39 <Norm> Henry: We need to have this in the test suite.
15:33:13 <Norm> Richard: The excluding of namespaces seems to amount to a "when necessary".
15:34:54 <Norm> Norm: Anyone against doing this?
15:34:57 <Norm> None heard.
15:35:28 <Norm> Michael: I think being able to trim namespace declarations is extremely useful. This seems unnecessarily complicated. 
15:35:52 <Norm> ...I agree that XSLT 2.0 does exactly the same thing. Maybe Alex is right that namespace fixup saves it for those of us who use one of the excluded namespaces.
15:35:59 <Norm> ...Do we have the same sort of namespace fixup rules?
15:36:01 <Norm> Norm: Yes.
15:36:16 <Norm> Richard: The case where namespace prefix doesn't work is when the prefix is used in content. Because then it isn't noticed.
15:37:04 <Norm> Richard: Namespace fixup won't gaurantee that you get the right prefix.
15:37:07 <Norm> Norm: True.
15:37:40 <Norm> Vojtech: I think the prefixes are the author's responsibility.
15:37:51 <Norm> Richard: But the excluded namespaces will remove the bindings.
15:38:12 <Norm> Vojtech: If the XProc namespace is removed automatically, that's a problem. But if you remove the prefix, that's your problem.
15:38:27 <Norm> Richard: That's not the way it works in XSLT. You specify it with a prefix, but it suppresses the namespace nodes that that prefix maps to.
15:39:06 <Norm> Henry: So, worst case, you need to use a namespace-rename step.
15:39:25 <Norm> Proposed: We adopt Henry's proposal for the 1 May draft.
15:39:35 <Norm> Accepted.
15:40:42 <Norm> Topic: What happens when @xpath-versions are mixed.
15:41:05 <Norm> Norm: Attempts to summarize from http://www.w3.org/mid/546c6c1c0804232256p71ee6e0dke3008132c75ff58a@mail.gmail.com
15:41:38 <Norm> Norm: We allow @name, @psvi-required and @xpath-version on the decl. of atomic steps.
15:42:07 <Norm> Norm: I think they're mostly harmless on atomic steps andw es houldn't worry abou tit.
15:42:37 <Norm> Norm: What do we want to say about mixed @xpath-versions across calls?
15:43:07 <Norm> Norm: I think the obvious answers are either, ignore the nested ones or its an error.
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15:44:59 <Norm> Consider:
15:45:00 <Norm> <p:pipeline xpath-version="2.0">
15:45:00 <Norm>   <p:declare-step type="ex:foo" xpath-version="1.0"/>
15:45:00 <Norm>   ...
15:45:00 <Norm>   <ex:foo/>
15:45:00 <Norm> </p:pipeline>
15:45:20 <Norm> Vojtech: The default is 1.0 so what happens with the base steps.
15:45:28 <Norm> Norm: That's a good point.
15:47:03 <Norm> Norm: I don't think we can expect implementations to do both.
15:47:07 <Norm> Henry: The problem is in libraries.
15:49:33 <Norm> Norm: I think we need to say that an unspecified version is license to use whatever you want and mixing them is a dynamic error.
15:50:15 <Norm> Henry: How do we avoid screwing users unnecessarily. And simultaneiously avoid giving them weird results.
15:51:06 <Norm> Norm: Uhm...
15:51:13 <Norm> Henry: What we want is late binding.
15:51:35 <Norm> Vojtech: If the implementation is prepared to switch, then it should work.
15:52:24 <Norm> Norm muses
15:52:32 <Norm> Vojtech: I think the default now is 1.0.
15:53:51 <Norm> Norm: Static analysis should always show what versions could be used, so maybe late binding is possible.
15:54:15 <Norm> ACTION: Norm to propose how @xpath-version should deal with mixed versions.
15:54:48 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
15:54:56 <Norm> None heard.
15:55:04 <Zakim> -PGrosso
15:55:05 <Zakim> -Andrew
15:55:06 <Zakim> -MSM
15:55:11 <Zakim> -Vojtech
15:55:16 <Norm> Adjourned.
15:55:17 <Zakim> -Norm
15:55:19 <Zakim> -richard
15:55:21 <Zakim> -Ht
15:55:22 <Zakim> -alexmilowski
15:55:22 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:55:23 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Vojtech, PGrosso, richard, alexmilowski, Andrew, Ht, MSM
16:00:18 <Norm> RRSAgent, set log world-visible
16:00:21 <Norm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-xproc-minutes.html Norm
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