17:46:27 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:46:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-ua-irc 17:46:36 Zakim, this will be UAWG 17:46:36 ok, Jan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 46 minutes ago 17:46:45 Meeting: WAI UA 17:47:26 AllanJ has joined #ua 17:48:03 Agenda: Chair: Jim Allan 17:48:08 Sctibe: Jan 17:48:29 Chair: Jim Allan 17:48:50 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0056.html 17:58:38 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:58:44 +AllanJ 17:59:02 Scribe: Jan 17:59:29 + +1.905.822.aaaa 18:00:22 +Gregory_Rosmaita 18:00:36 zakim, +1.905.822.aaaa is really Jan 18:00:36 +Jan; got it 18:01:04 +[Microsoft] 18:01:34 zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord 18:01:34 +KFord; got it 18:02:32 KFord has joined #ua 18:07:06 Regrets: Alan Cantor 18:08:39 Action JA: Look up accessible IRC 18:10:40 Topic: 1. Charter review with new updates 18:10:48 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html 18:11:03 JA: JA, KF, and JR discussed some language 18:11:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0063.html 18:11:18 Proposed scope change to charter. 18:11:19 6 (NEW). Promote and support the development of user agent best practices and implementation guides for W3C technologies. Where appropriate, the resulting documents may be linked to by the UAWG or hosted by the Working Group as W3C Notes. 18:11:41 JA: Judy seemed to like it 18:11:54 JA: Any other issues? 18:12:21 KF: No prob with text but wanted to discuss ... 18:13:25 KF: Wonder if Aaron wanted us to do their doc 18:13:43 JR: I think he must know we couldn't...so he must mean we could host 18:14:05 GR: AL really pushing ahead on FF3 18:15:17 GR: So he's trying to get ARIA finished up 18:16:26 JA: I don't see that as part of the UAAG guidelines... they are more like techniques 18:17:17 Jan: right, UAWG can provide space, or publish information as a NOTE 18:17:29 JR: So that's why I suggest it be a UAWG note 18:17:57 GR: Maybe we could follow a DHTML type model 18:18:12 GR: Taking place through xtech but doc is at dev.aol.com 18:18:49 dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide 18:19:08 GR: Becky Gibson and DOJO are also involved 18:19:18 GR: Talk about keybindings etc. 18:19:24 dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide 18:19:39 +Dave 18:20:22 Dean Hudson called in 18:20:40 zakim, Dave is really DeanHudson 18:20:40 +DeanHudson; got it 18:21:21 DH: Work in voice over tech group in OS10, QA engineer, primarily responsible for vo quality on Mac platform... 18:21:32 JA: Glad to have you 18:21:48 KF: From Microsoft, work on IE team around accessibility 18:22:29 GR: Member of WAI-PF, HTML5, XHTML, Xfroms, vice chair for open accessibility WG 18:23:01 JR: Introduces self 18:23:19 JA: Web master at Texas school for blind and working with WAI since inception. 18:23:32 JA: I have an end user perspective 18:23:54 JA: Back to charter.... 18:24:06 DH: I have looked a little bit 18:24:15 JA: We are jsut discussing new scope provision 18:24:24 KFord has joined #ua 18:25:09 JA: Any other comments? 18:25:23 JA: OK approved with no objections. 18:25:44 Action JR: Update charter and send to Judy 18:26:13 Topic: 2. Discuss/review ARIA implementer guide 18:26:23 JA: But all principal people not here 18:26:30 Topic: 3. XHTML Access module 18:26:42 JA: In Agenda I included 4 messages... 18:26:51 JA: But GR is initiator of this 18:27:26 GR: XHTML2 working group is trying to push ahead a ACCESS module...defines standard way to access objects from keyboards 18:27:44 GR: I raised issue of ACTIVATE being boolean with no being default... 18:27:59 GR: But problem that more than one action can be associated with an object 18:28:36 GR: I proposed an "inspect" safety-type state that allows inspection of what focus will cause. 18:28:58 GR: Through discussion this week it's become clear that this involves UA interaction 18:29:26 GR: With ACTIVATE being boolean, with default no...ok for one action 18:29:43 GR: But what if some actions are activate=false and some true 18:30:20 GR: Some ATs can do inspect but what about people not using AT. 18:30:34 DH: What do you mean by activate 18:31:29 GR: Activate is like accesskey 18:31:47 JR: What about focus/activate split 18:31:58 XHTML access module = http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/WD-xhtml-access-20080418/ 18:32:06 GR: Activate lets their be focus or not 18:32:26 GR: But mouse/pointer user is left out... 18:32:53 JA: THought activate was on a mouse click 18:33:41 JR: example - OK button, can tab to get focus, with mouse can only activate 18:34:48 GR: access module is specific to access key, and the author can choose whether the key press results in focus or action 18:34:53 GR: So as long as fixing it for keyboard....want to fix mouse as well 18:35:10 GR: Access can be defined for any target 18:35:27 GR: But we are dealing with potentially multiple events 18:36:22 GR: Since user agent has control over DOM, maybe user agent has to step in to show the handlers and offer. 18:36:37 DH: But user may not know which handler to choose 18:37:07 JA: We currently have checkpoint, "activate handlers"... 18:37:37 JA: And user has to be able to fire all actions with keyboard 18:38:03 JA: And so you're saying this should be different...with an inspect? 18:38:31 GR: Either have to do it in Access module or XML events2 18:39:26 JR: What's the user experience 18:39:29 JR: practical user experience. with a pointer - mouse down, mouse over, the user doesn't know what will happen. 18:39:46 JR: what's the purpose; 18:40:05 GR: to defang the on-focus firing. 18:40:26 JR: I understand ensuring focus doesn't happen 18:40:41 JR: What do you mean by inspect? 18:41:15 GR: If multiple actions fire user may want to do some but not all 18:41:31 KF: So an example...on_mouse_down to activate link 18:41:32 zakim, q+ for technical knowledge of user 18:41:32 AllanJ, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' 18:41:51 KF: THen I have mouse_over 18:42:35 GR: Say you have extension where mouseover word gives translation and mousedown option to change language 18:43:31 JR: So you just know there is mousedown and mouseover but no meaning till code fires? 18:43:59 the UA does not know what will happen. 18:44:04 GR: I won't see this using "read all" 18:44:13 DH: Maybve should be in ACCESS module 18:44:26 DH: Access module could send message to AT 18:44:44 DH: Another keypress could say press this to get menu etc 18:45:35 JA: What you say is true but if some extension to user agent then UA should know what is going on, but user's jscript will be blackhole 18:45:46 JA: UA doesn't jknow what will be happening 18:46:14 JA: Other issue is user should not have to self-discover a la Myst...UA should tell you when you get there 18:46:52 GR: This is why I always have verboisty on high - let's me discover more 18:47:05 GR: COuld be sound, alert, slashing screen etc. 18:47:14 DH: Right 18:48:08 GR: I think there should be way in Access module to get cascade 18:48:56 GR: Because even though accesskey is defined as one key from keyboard ...it might not be avaialble on a particular keyboard...going to have problems 18:49:19 GR: Access module says the keystrokes are only suggestions of UA... 18:49:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0061.html 18:50:21 JA: Just thinking about more studff in our guidelines.... 18:50:36 JA: 9.5 18:50:59 JA: Then also 9.6 18:51:16 GR: So at very least they need to put pointers in to UAAG 18:51:26 JA: How should we work to liaison 18:51:52 GR: I really appreciared your message on the board 18:52:51 GR: Other thing we need to make sure is addressed...in absence of defined key, user agent SHOULD define a key 18:53:32 GR: User agent should display bindings.... 18:54:26 UAAG 1.0 11.3 allow the user to override any binding that is part of the user agent default input configuration 18:54:26 DH: And that would be in access module? 18:54:54 GR: So in there already is that the user agent should define a key 18:55:26 JA: UAAG is at the point where whatever author says fine, but allow reconfiguration 18:55:41 JA: We also have a P3, no automatic form submission 18:56:54 GR: THey want this to be abstract as possible but we do want to point out diff between mouse user and keyboard users experience 18:57:18 JA: When hit access key on top of page, something could happen on botom of page 18:58:23 DH: Interesting...mouse users experience this...go to web site, don't know loud music will start 18:58:42 DH: Lots of mouse users do sort of click around all over 18:58:51 GR: Mouse user is free agent 18:59:12 GR: Keyboard user is not, always restricted.... 18:59:20 JA: Kelly? 18:59:26 KF: Absorbing. 18:59:49 JA: OK, we have 3 mins 19:00:12 JA: We will be picking up keyboard conversation again... 19:00:29 JA: So for next week... 19:00:52 Action JA: Summary of the ACCESS stuff - mapping relevant checkpoints in UAAG1 and UAAG2 19:01:06 JA: Because I think we cover a lot ofg this 19:01:37 JA: Then we'll try and get consensus and senfd over to XHTML 19:01:56 GR: Could be UAAG2 verbiage with UAAG1 mappings for normative power 19:02:27 JA: OK, well Dean great you could join us 19:02:37 JA: OK see you all next week 19:03:04 -KFord 19:03:05 -DeanHudson 19:03:05 -Gregory_Rosmaita 19:05:11 -AllanJ 19:05:13 -Jan 19:05:13 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:05:14 Attendees were AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jan, KFord, DeanHudson 19:05:25 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:05:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-ua-minutes.html Jan 19:05:31 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:05:37 Zakim, bye 19:05:37 Zakim has left #ua 19:05:42 RRSAgent, bye 19:05:42 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-ua-actions.rdf : 19:05:42 ACTION: JA to Look up accessible IRC [1] 19:05:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-ua-irc#T18-08-39 19:05:42 ACTION: JR to Update charter and send to Judy [2] 19:05:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-ua-irc#T18-25-44 19:05:42 ACTION: JA to Summary of the ACCESS stuff - mapping relevant checkpoints in UAAG1 and UAAG2 [3] 19:05:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-ua-irc#T19-00-52