IRC log of ua on 2008-04-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:46:27 [RRSAgent]
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17:46:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:46:36 [Jan]
Zakim, this will be UAWG
17:46:36 [Zakim]
ok, Jan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 46 minutes ago
17:46:45 [Jan]
Meeting: WAI UA
17:47:26 [AllanJ]
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17:48:03 [Jan]
Agenda: Chair: Jim Allan
17:48:08 [Jan]
Sctibe: Jan
17:48:29 [Jan]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:48:50 [Jan]
17:58:38 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:58:44 [Zakim]
17:59:02 [AllanJ]
Scribe: Jan
17:59:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.905.822.aaaa
18:00:22 [Zakim]
18:00:36 [Jan]
zakim, +1.905.822.aaaa is really Jan
18:00:36 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:01:04 [Zakim]
18:01:34 [Jan]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord
18:01:34 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
18:02:32 [KFord]
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18:07:06 [Jan]
Regrets: Alan Cantor
18:08:39 [Jan]
Action JA: Look up accessible IRC
18:10:40 [Jan]
Topic: 1. Charter review with new updates
18:10:48 [Jan]
18:11:03 [Jan]
JA: JA, KF, and JR discussed some language
18:11:14 [Jan]
18:11:18 [KFord]
Proposed scope change to charter.
18:11:19 [KFord]
6 (NEW). Promote and support the development of user agent best practices and implementation guides for W3C technologies. Where appropriate, the resulting documents may be linked to by the UAWG or hosted by the Working Group as W3C Notes.
18:11:41 [Jan]
JA: Judy seemed to like it
18:11:54 [Jan]
JA: Any other issues?
18:12:21 [Jan]
KF: No prob with text but wanted to discuss ...
18:13:25 [Jan]
KF: Wonder if Aaron wanted us to do their doc
18:13:43 [Jan]
JR: I think he must know we couldn' he must mean we could host
18:14:05 [Jan]
GR: AL really pushing ahead on FF3
18:15:17 [Jan]
GR: So he's trying to get ARIA finished up
18:16:26 [Jan]
JA: I don't see that as part of the UAAG guidelines... they are more like techniques
18:17:17 [AllanJ]
Jan: right, UAWG can provide space, or publish information as a NOTE
18:17:29 [Jan]
JR: So that's why I suggest it be a UAWG note
18:17:57 [Jan]
GR: Maybe we could follow a DHTML type model
18:18:12 [Jan]
GR: Taking place through xtech but doc is at
18:18:49 [Jan]
18:19:08 [Jan]
GR: Becky Gibson and DOJO are also involved
18:19:18 [Jan]
GR: Talk about keybindings etc.
18:19:24 [AllanJ]
18:19:39 [Zakim]
18:20:22 [Jan]
Dean Hudson called in
18:20:40 [Jan]
zakim, Dave is really DeanHudson
18:20:40 [Zakim]
+DeanHudson; got it
18:21:21 [Jan]
DH: Work in voice over tech group in OS10, QA engineer, primarily responsible for vo quality on Mac platform...
18:21:32 [Jan]
JA: Glad to have you
18:21:48 [Jan]
KF: From Microsoft, work on IE team around accessibility
18:22:29 [Jan]
GR: Member of WAI-PF, HTML5, XHTML, Xfroms, vice chair for open accessibility WG
18:23:01 [Jan]
JR: Introduces self
18:23:19 [Jan]
JA: Web master at Texas school for blind and working with WAI since inception.
18:23:32 [Jan]
JA: I have an end user perspective
18:23:54 [Jan]
JA: Back to charter....
18:24:06 [Jan]
DH: I have looked a little bit
18:24:15 [Jan]
JA: We are jsut discussing new scope provision
18:24:24 [KFord]
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18:25:09 [Jan]
JA: Any other comments?
18:25:23 [Jan]
JA: OK approved with no objections.
18:25:44 [Jan]
Action JR: Update charter and send to Judy
18:26:13 [Jan]
Topic: 2. Discuss/review ARIA implementer guide
18:26:23 [Jan]
JA: But all principal people not here
18:26:30 [Jan]
Topic: 3. XHTML Access module
18:26:42 [Jan]
JA: In Agenda I included 4 messages...
18:26:51 [Jan]
JA: But GR is initiator of this
18:27:26 [Jan]
GR: XHTML2 working group is trying to push ahead a ACCESS module...defines standard way to access objects from keyboards
18:27:44 [Jan]
GR: I raised issue of ACTIVATE being boolean with no being default...
18:27:59 [Jan]
GR: But problem that more than one action can be associated with an object
18:28:36 [Jan]
GR: I proposed an "inspect" safety-type state that allows inspection of what focus will cause.
18:28:58 [Jan]
GR: Through discussion this week it's become clear that this involves UA interaction
18:29:26 [Jan]
GR: With ACTIVATE being boolean, with default no...ok for one action
18:29:43 [Jan]
GR: But what if some actions are activate=false and some true
18:30:20 [Jan]
GR: Some ATs can do inspect but what about people not using AT.
18:30:34 [Jan]
DH: What do you mean by activate
18:31:29 [Jan]
GR: Activate is like accesskey
18:31:47 [Jan]
JR: What about focus/activate split
18:31:58 [AllanJ]
XHTML access module =
18:32:06 [Jan]
GR: Activate lets their be focus or not
18:32:26 [Jan]
GR: But mouse/pointer user is left out...
18:32:53 [Jan]
JA: THought activate was on a mouse click
18:33:41 [AllanJ]
JR: example - OK button, can tab to get focus, with mouse can only activate
18:34:48 [AllanJ]
GR: access module is specific to access key, and the author can choose whether the key press results in focus or action
18:34:53 [Jan]
GR: So as long as fixing it for keyboard....want to fix mouse as well
18:35:10 [Jan]
GR: Access can be defined for any target
18:35:27 [Jan]
GR: But we are dealing with potentially multiple events
18:36:22 [Jan]
GR: Since user agent has control over DOM, maybe user agent has to step in to show the handlers and offer.
18:36:37 [Jan]
DH: But user may not know which handler to choose
18:37:07 [Jan]
JA: We currently have checkpoint, "activate handlers"...
18:37:37 [Jan]
JA: And user has to be able to fire all actions with keyboard
18:38:03 [Jan]
JA: And so you're saying this should be different...with an inspect?
18:38:31 [Jan]
GR: Either have to do it in Access module or XML events2
18:39:26 [Jan]
JR: What's the user experience
18:39:29 [AllanJ]
JR: practical user experience. with a pointer - mouse down, mouse over, the user doesn't know what will happen.
18:39:46 [AllanJ]
JR: what's the purpose;
18:40:05 [AllanJ]
GR: to defang the on-focus firing.
18:40:26 [Jan]
JR: I understand ensuring focus doesn't happen
18:40:41 [Jan]
JR: What do you mean by inspect?
18:41:15 [Jan]
GR: If multiple actions fire user may want to do some but not all
18:41:31 [Jan]
KF: So an example...on_mouse_down to activate link
18:41:32 [AllanJ]
zakim, q+ for technical knowledge of user
18:41:32 [Zakim]
AllanJ, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
18:41:51 [Jan]
KF: THen I have mouse_over
18:42:35 [Jan]
GR: Say you have extension where mouseover word gives translation and mousedown option to change language
18:43:31 [Jan]
JR: So you just know there is mousedown and mouseover but no meaning till code fires?
18:43:59 [AllanJ]
the UA does not know what will happen.
18:44:04 [Jan]
GR: I won't see this using "read all"
18:44:13 [Jan]
DH: Maybve should be in ACCESS module
18:44:26 [Jan]
DH: Access module could send message to AT
18:44:44 [Jan]
DH: Another keypress could say press this to get menu etc
18:45:35 [Jan]
JA: What you say is true but if some extension to user agent then UA should know what is going on, but user's jscript will be blackhole
18:45:46 [Jan]
JA: UA doesn't jknow what will be happening
18:46:14 [Jan]
JA: Other issue is user should not have to self-discover a la Myst...UA should tell you when you get there
18:46:52 [Jan]
GR: This is why I always have verboisty on high - let's me discover more
18:47:05 [Jan]
GR: COuld be sound, alert, slashing screen etc.
18:47:14 [Jan]
DH: Right
18:48:08 [Jan]
GR: I think there should be way in Access module to get cascade
18:48:56 [Jan]
GR: Because even though accesskey is defined as one key from keyboard might not be avaialble on a particular keyboard...going to have problems
18:49:19 [Jan]
GR: Access module says the keystrokes are only suggestions of UA...
18:49:53 [AllanJ]
18:50:21 [Jan]
JA: Just thinking about more studff in our guidelines....
18:50:36 [Jan]
JA: 9.5
18:50:59 [Jan]
JA: Then also 9.6
18:51:16 [Jan]
GR: So at very least they need to put pointers in to UAAG
18:51:26 [Jan]
JA: How should we work to liaison
18:51:52 [Jan]
GR: I really appreciared your message on the board
18:52:51 [Jan]
GR: Other thing we need to make sure is absence of defined key, user agent SHOULD define a key
18:53:32 [Jan]
GR: User agent should display bindings....
18:54:26 [AllanJ]
UAAG 1.0 11.3 allow the user to override any binding that is part of the user agent default input configuration
18:54:26 [Jan]
DH: And that would be in access module?
18:54:54 [Jan]
GR: So in there already is that the user agent should define a key
18:55:26 [Jan]
JA: UAAG is at the point where whatever author says fine, but allow reconfiguration
18:55:41 [Jan]
JA: We also have a P3, no automatic form submission
18:56:54 [Jan]
GR: THey want this to be abstract as possible but we do want to point out diff between mouse user and keyboard users experience
18:57:18 [Jan]
JA: When hit access key on top of page, something could happen on botom of page
18:58:23 [Jan]
DH: Interesting...mouse users experience this...go to web site, don't know loud music will start
18:58:42 [Jan]
DH: Lots of mouse users do sort of click around all over
18:58:51 [Jan]
GR: Mouse user is free agent
18:59:12 [Jan]
GR: Keyboard user is not, always restricted....
18:59:20 [Jan]
JA: Kelly?
18:59:26 [Jan]
KF: Absorbing.
18:59:49 [Jan]
JA: OK, we have 3 mins
19:00:12 [Jan]
JA: We will be picking up keyboard conversation again...
19:00:29 [Jan]
JA: So for next week...
19:00:52 [Jan]
Action JA: Summary of the ACCESS stuff - mapping relevant checkpoints in UAAG1 and UAAG2
19:01:06 [Jan]
JA: Because I think we cover a lot ofg this
19:01:37 [Jan]
JA: Then we'll try and get consensus and senfd over to XHTML
19:01:56 [Jan]
GR: Could be UAAG2 verbiage with UAAG1 mappings for normative power
19:02:27 [Jan]
JA: OK, well Dean great you could join us
19:02:37 [Jan]
JA: OK see you all next week
19:03:04 [Zakim]
19:03:05 [Zakim]
19:03:05 [Zakim]
19:05:11 [Zakim]
19:05:13 [Zakim]
19:05:13 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:05:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were AllanJ, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jan, KFord, DeanHudson
19:05:25 [Jan]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:05:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Jan
19:05:31 [Jan]
RRSAgent, set logs public
19:05:37 [Jan]
Zakim, bye
19:05:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:05:42 [Jan]
RRSAgent, bye
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Look up accessible IRC [1]
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Update charter and send to Judy [2]
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Summary of the ACCESS stuff - mapping relevant checkpoints in UAAG1 and UAAG2 [3]
19:05:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in