16:47:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:47:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/23-owl-irc
16:47:28 <MartinD> Zakim, this will be OWLWG
16:47:28 <Zakim> ok, MartinD; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 47 minutes ago
16:47:49 <MartinD> ScribeNick: MartinD
16:52:13 <pfps> pfps has joined #owl
16:53:59 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:54:06 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:54:16 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:54:17 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
16:54:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:54:59 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:55:06 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:56:07 <pfps> zakim, this will be owlwg
16:56:07 <Zakim> ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 56 minutes ago
16:56:10 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
16:56:20 <pfps> RRSAgent, make records public
16:56:34 <pfps> I got kicked off a minute ago, so try again
16:56:55 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
16:58:09 <pfps> not since I turned off my speakers :-)
16:58:18 <Rinke> zakim, who is here
16:58:18 <Zakim> Rinke, you need to end that query with '?'
16:58:22 <Rinke> zakim, who is here?
16:58:22 <Zakim> I notice SW_OWL()12:00PM has restarted
16:58:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P3, +90827aaaa, ??P6
16:58:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
16:58:46 <MartinD> Zakim, 908 is me
16:58:47 <Zakim> sorry, MartinD, I do not recognize a party named '908'
16:58:47 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:58:47 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
16:58:51 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
16:58:52 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:58:52 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
16:58:55 <MartinD> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:58:56 <Zakim> +MartinD; got it
16:59:08 <Rinke> Zakim, who is here?
16:59:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P3, MartinD, bmotik (muted)
16:59:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
16:59:13 <Rinke> Zakim, ??P3 is me
16:59:13 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it
16:59:16 <Rinke> zakim, mute me
16:59:16 <Zakim> Rinke should now be muted
16:59:17 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
16:59:27 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
16:59:28 <MartinD> zakimm, mute me
16:59:34 <MartinD> zakim, mute me
16:59:34 <Zakim> MartinD should now be muted
16:59:36 <uli> uli has joined #owl
17:00:07 <Zakim> +??P30
17:00:16 <Zakim> +??P35
17:00:16 <bijan> zakim, ??p30 is me
17:00:17 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
17:00:21 <diegoc> diegoc has joined #owl
17:00:22 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:00:22 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:00:28 <uli> zakim, ??P35 is me
17:00:28 <Zakim> +uli; got it
17:00:32 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl
17:00:35 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:00:35 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:00:41 <Zakim> + +1.617.253.aabb
17:01:23 <Zakim> +diegoc
17:01:41 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #owl
17:01:45 <Zakim> +IanH
17:01:53 <Zakim> +msmith
17:02:06 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
17:02:08 <baojie> baojie has joined #owl
17:02:10 <alanr> markus, will you be able to scribe until end of call?
17:02:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:02:45 <jeremy_> jeremy_ has joined #owl
17:02:49 <sandro> IanH, I'm going to be a bit late to the meeting, sorry.
17:02:51 <bijan> I request tha nary-data predicates be put on the General Discussions list
17:03:08 <bijan> There is quite a worked out proposal: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_proposal
17:03:12 <MartinD> Topic: Roll call
17:03:17 <ewallace> Agenda amendments: I have change the deadline for action 112 so this need not be discussed
17:03:26 <alanr> noted
17:03:45 <bijan> And there is an issue: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/5
17:03:46 <bijan> Great
17:03:50 <MartinD> zakim, unmute me
17:03:50 <Zakim> MartinD should no longer be muted
17:04:10 <Zakim> +??P13
17:04:33 <alanr> no
17:04:40 <MarkusK> alanr, I think so -- is there another scribe before me or am I the only one?
17:04:40 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:04:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli (muted), +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace,
17:04:45 <Zakim> ... MarkusK, jeremy_
17:04:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, diegoc, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
17:05:01 <MartinD> I am scribing.... no probs... things setup
17:05:23 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:05:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli (muted), +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace,
17:05:27 <Zakim> ... MarkusK, JeremyCarroll
17:05:28 <MartinD> alanr: we're starting
17:05:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, diegoc, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
17:05:44 <alanr> zakim,aabb is me
17:05:44 <Zakim> +alanr; got it
17:06:00 <MartinD> Topic: Agenda amendments
17:06:19 <MartinD> Alanr: F2F - we're settling 18-29 July at MIT
17:06:28 <alanr> 28-29
17:06:31 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc
17:06:34 <MartinD> a/18/28
17:06:43 <baojie> Zakim, aacc is baojie
17:06:43 <Zakim> +baojie; got it
17:06:43 <alanr> q?
17:07:01 <alanr> zakim, who is talking
17:07:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', alanr
17:07:14 <IanH> Is it just me or has the line gone dead?
17:07:23 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, who is speaking?
17:07:23 <diegoc> i hear just static
17:07:27 <alanr> static
17:07:31 <IanH> here too
17:07:36 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
17:07:40 <JeremyCarroll> liar
17:07:49 <ewallace> Sound like background noise
17:07:49 <alanr> mutes baojie
17:07:56 <alanr> zakim, mute baojie
17:07:56 <Zakim> baojie should now be muted
17:08:00 <IanH> better!
17:08:20 <MartinD> Alanr: F2F - we're settling 28-29 July at MIT
17:08:35 <Rinke> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/41712/f2f3_dates/results
17:08:38 <MartinD> alanr: topic on issues raised and how handled
17:09:01 <MartinD> alanr: talking to IanH and things are going to change how issues are handled, raised,
17:09:14 <MartinD> alanr: there was an email about first batch of issues to review
17:09:32 <MartinD> Topic: Pending actions
17:10:13 <MartinD> alanr: four points - update on RDF mapping (ISSUE 115) 
17:10:32 <MartinD> alanr: ISSUE 137, ISSUE 120, ISSUE 138
17:10:58 <alanr> q?
17:11:01 <MartinD> {Action|115} Update the RDF mapping with the accepted resolution of ISSUE-12 as per Peter's suggestion/Boris
17:11:13 <MartinD> PROPOSED: the above issues to be considered done
17:11:26 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:11:26 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:11:27 <bijan> My overdue acitions got siderailed by the easyclasskey discussion so remain undone
17:11:31 <bijan> Should be done in a few days
17:11:37 <MartinD> RESOLVED: SSUE 137, ISSUE 120, ISSUE 138, ISSUE 115 done
17:11:43 <MartinD> Topic: Previous minutes
17:11:52 <pfps> minimally acceptable - scribes should prefix their comments with their names
17:11:54 <MartinD> alanr: are minutes acceptable?
17:12:13 <uli> I will change my comments...
17:12:19 <MartinD> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (16 April)
17:12:37 <MartinD> RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (16 April)
17:13:04 <MartinD> Action 115 (Update the RDF mapping with the accepted resolution of ISSUE-12 as per Peter's suggestion/Boris)
17:13:06 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:13:06 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:13:10 <bijan> Scroll up in the log
17:13:25 <bijan>         bijan : My overdue acitions got siderailed by the easyclasskey discussion so remain undone
17:13:25 <bijan>         bijan : Should be done in a few days
17:13:29 <MartinD> bijan: should be done in a few days
17:14:09 <MartinD> Jeremy: to review doc on OWL compatibility with RIF - prob. mid May
17:14:31 <MartinD> Topic: Raised Issues
17:14:37 <MartinD> alanr: will be timed to 30 mins
17:15:02 <MartinD> alanr: two raised issues 113 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/113)
17:15:28 <MartinD> alanr: Open/Shut per Jeremy's note (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0198.html)
17:15:39 <JeremyCarroll> issue-113: I am OK with this (but still -epsilon vote!)
17:15:40 <MartinD> alanr: Issue 115 Icon needed for the WG pages.
17:15:42 <pfps> i'll remind him
17:15:49 <MartinD> alanr: minor change, not related to OWL
17:16:05 <MartinD> alanr: Issue 120 Bug fixes to OWL 1 Semantics/Backwards compatibility
17:16:20 <MartinD> alanr: considered editorial, already updated to reflect the issue
17:16:22 <alanr> q?
17:16:25 <MartinD> alanr: any further issues
17:16:36 <MartinD> alanr: proposals to resolve issues
17:16:59 <MartinD> alanr: {Issue|22} Syntactic sugar for a rule, per email 
17:17:05 <MarkusK> q+
17:17:11 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:17:11 <MartinD> alanr: we suggest to close it with no action
17:17:16 <alanr> q?
17:17:50 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention possibility of postponement
17:17:55 <MartinD> markusk: ok to close but there are some issues that may violate rules in the future, in theory problematic
17:17:58 <uli> q+ to comment
17:18:05 <MartinD> alanr: does this affect spec?
17:18:15 <alanr> ack Markus
17:18:33 <MartinD> markusk: if you want to express...
17:18:49 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:18:49 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention possibility of postponement
17:19:12 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:19:12 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
17:19:12 <MartinD> Jeremy: maybe we should postpone these issues to future WG-s?
17:19:21 <MartinD> Uli: agrees to close this issue
17:19:33 <MartinD> uli: maybe consider this in the next extensions to OWL
17:19:39 <MarkusK> OK, I am fine with that.
17:19:51 <MartinD> uli: might not be right point to talk about this, also late?
17:20:09 <MartinD> alanr: non-structural constraints in the current work?
17:20:11 <alanr> closed: "no action" sort of postponed.
17:20:23 <Rinke> this email from Carsten just came in, http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.64.0804231914440.2230%2540frege.inf.tu-dresden.de
17:20:29 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to further argue for postponement
17:20:29 <MartinD> uli: some work can be done, but not really to change it all now
17:20:41 <MartinD> alanr: nothing to do on this now...
17:20:52 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:20:52 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli
17:20:59 <ewallace> me too
17:21:08 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:21:08 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:21:28 <MartinD> PROPOSED: Consider ISSUE 22 formally postponed
17:21:41 <MarkusK> +1 to postpone
17:21:42 <uli> +1
17:21:43 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:21:44 <alanr> +1
17:21:46 <bmotik> +1
17:21:46 <MartinD> +1
17:21:47 <Rinke> +1
17:21:47 <diegoc> +1
17:21:48 <IanH> +1
17:21:50 <msmith> +1
17:21:56 <bijan> +1
17:22:07 <MartinD> RESOLVED: Consider ISSUE 22 formally postponed
17:22:25 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents,
17:22:48 <MartinD> alanr: some errors spotted in OWL doc, since they are not worked on, we should close or postpone this
17:22:59 <pfps> q+
17:23:04 <MartinD> alanr: suggests postponing
17:23:04 <uli> q-
17:23:08 <alanr> ack uli
17:23:20 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:23:20 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to further argue for postponement
17:23:24 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: probably postpone is better
17:23:25 <alanr> ack pfps
17:23:44 <Elisa> Elisa has joined #owl
17:23:50 <ewallace> postpone is better
17:23:58 <bijan> None of the erros show up in OWL2 yes?
17:24:01 <MartinD> alanr: strawpoll on postpone vs. close
17:24:01 <JeremyCarroll> I will vote 0 but don't wish to argue further
17:24:04 <ewallace> postpone
17:24:06 <bmotik> Close
17:24:06 <pfps> close
17:24:08 <JeremyCarroll> 0 (neither postpone nor close)
17:24:11 <Rinke> close, I guess
17:24:13 <alanr> 0
17:24:14 <IanH> close
17:24:14 <uli> close
17:24:16 <diegoc> 0
17:24:18 <baojie> 0
17:24:19 <MartinD> 0
17:24:23 <bijan> Close
17:24:25 <msmith> clsoe
17:24:30 <MartinD> alanr: let's close it then
17:24:39 <MartinD> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE 57 
17:24:42 <JeremyCarroll> 0
17:24:45 <ewallace> 0
17:24:58 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
17:24:59 <JeremyCarroll> as moot
17:25:21 <JeremyCarroll> 0
17:25:21 <bmotik> +1
17:25:23 <alanr> +1
17:25:23 <ewallace> 0
17:25:25 <pfps> +1 to close
17:25:32 <uli> +1
17:25:32 <IanH> +1
17:25:34 <bijan> +1 to the moot
17:25:35 <Rinke> +1 close
17:25:37 <MartinD> PROPOSED: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents closed as moot (not relevant)
17:25:41 <msmith> +1 to close
17:25:44 <Elisa> 0
17:25:46 <diegoc> +1
17:25:49 <MarkusK> +1
17:25:57 <MartinD> RESOLVED: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents closed as moot (not relevant)
17:26:09 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 106 OWL 2 namespace per proposal
17:26:20 <bmotik> q+
17:26:27 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:26:27 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:26:30 <alanr> ack bmotik
17:26:35 <MartinD> alanr: what about namespaces? we keep old one, so OWL2 has the same namespace as the old one
17:26:56 <MartinD> bmotik: are we talking about RDF only or also about XML
17:27:01 <MartinD> alanr: only about RDF
17:27:02 <bijan> +super1
17:27:02 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:27:04 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:27:39 <alanr> PROPOSED Resolve Issue 57 by saying that new OWL 2 vocabulary goes in old OWL 1 namespace
17:27:42 <JeremyCarroll> 0 (there are differences of opinion in HP)
17:27:42 <bmotik> +100
17:27:44 <pfps> +1 to make owl2 be the same as owl :-)
17:27:46 <alanr> +1
17:27:49 <ewallace> 0
17:27:52 <MartinD> +1
17:27:53 <Rinke> 0
17:27:54 <baojie> 0
17:27:54 <IanH> +1
17:27:57 <diegoc> +1
17:27:59 <uli> +1
17:28:00 <bijan> +1
17:28:04 <Elisa> 0
17:28:11 <MarkusK> +1
17:28:11 <alanr> ACCEPTED Resolve Issue 57 by saying that new OWL 2 vocabulary goes in old OWL 1 namespace
17:28:28 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 63 Defining an RDFS compatible semantics 
17:28:37 <MartinD> alanr: not sure if to accept this as a real issue
17:28:40 <JeremyCarroll> +1
17:28:45 <MartinD> alanr: should we close it completed
17:29:02 <alanr> PROPOSED Close Issue 63 as done.
17:29:04 <ewallace> +1
17:29:05 <alanr> q?
17:29:09 <alanr> +1
17:29:10 <pfps> +1 to agree that we're doing what we should
17:29:10 <Rinke> +1
17:29:13 <bmotik> +1
17:29:14 <MartinD> 0
17:29:15 <msmith> +1 to close ISSUE-63
17:29:17 <MarkusK> +1
17:29:17 <diegoc> +1
17:29:19 <uli> +1
17:29:20 <IanH> +1
17:29:22 <Elisa> +1
17:29:31 <baojie> +1
17:29:34 <alanr> RESOLVED Close Issue 63 as done.
17:29:35 <diegoc> diegoc has left #owl
17:29:54 <ewallace> s/ACCEPTED/RESOLVED
17:30:00 <MartinD> Topic: Issue discussion
17:30:09 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 119 Russel paradox in OWL Full due to self restrictions.
17:30:26 <MartinD> alanr: OWL full comprehension issue
17:30:39 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to ask peter about solipism
17:30:47 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:30:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to ask peter about solipism
17:31:05 <diegoc> diegoc has joined #owl
17:31:12 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: to members of previous OWLWG, whether there is new evidence to reconsider comprehension principle?
17:31:18 <pfps> q+
17:31:23 <alanr> ack pfps
17:31:45 <MartinD> pfps: relationship between DL and Full needs rethink
17:32:01 <MartinD> pfps: if comprehension principle goes away
17:32:20 <pfps> q+
17:32:30 <MartinD> alanr: what do we lose if we go the wway Jeremy proposed
17:33:23 <alanr> ack pfps
17:33:26 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: deleting all comprehension principles allows us to rethink all relations, practically that might not be valuable?
17:33:43 <MartinD> pfps: one can do a patch to keep things the same,
17:33:59 <MartinD> pfps: that might be adequate
17:34:03 <IanH> q+
17:34:15 <alanr> ack IanH
17:34:15 <JeremyCarroll> Have I seen this patch?
17:34:17 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
17:34:17 <Zakim> IanH was not muted, IanH
17:34:30 <MartinD> alanr: action on Peter or Ian?
17:34:51 <MartinD> IanH: agrees with Peter, needs convincing that we should completely revise OWL Full semantics
17:35:10 <MartinD> IanH: this might be close to "out of scope" w.r.t. our charter
17:35:35 <bijan> I wouldn't mind a new owl full, whether we can agree on the new version is a different issue :)
17:35:37 <MartinD> alanr: someone should coordinate, sheperd the patching process
17:35:40 <IanH> OK
17:36:09 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:36:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli, alanr, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK,
17:36:14 <Zakim> ... JeremyCarroll, baojie (muted), Elisa_Kendall
17:36:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see diegoc, Elisa, JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
17:36:28 <MartinD> ACTION: IanH to sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119)
17:36:28 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - IanH
17:36:49 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 97 Add GRDDL to OWL/XML Syntax
17:36:51 <JeremyCarroll> q+ on 97
17:37:02 <bijan> q+
17:37:08 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:37:14 <MartinD> alanr: anyone willing to take this issue?
17:37:15 <alanr> ack on
17:37:16 <JeremyCarroll> q- on
17:37:20 <JeremyCarroll> q- 97
17:37:34 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:37:34 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:37:41 <alanr> q?
17:37:45 <alanr> ack bijan
17:37:47 <MartinD> bijan: wants to say a thing on GRDDL
17:37:50 <IanH> ACTION: IanH to sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119)
17:37:50 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - IanH
17:38:21 <JeremyCarroll> I think we need the XSLT!
17:38:33 <IanH> RSSAgent claims not to recognise me -- I will do it the old fashioned way!
17:38:40 <MartinD> bijan: this seems to be almost editorial, depends on what level we are looking at this...
17:39:01 <MartinD> bijan: there might be issue with going only for XSLT transformations
17:39:19 <JeremyCarroll> That's a real difference of opinion
17:39:33 <Rinke> Think I agree with bijan on this point, esp. since the syntax is still in flux
17:39:49 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to respond to Bijan
17:39:59 <MartinD> alanr: new information;  why don't we ...
17:40:02 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:40:02 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to respond to Bijan
17:40:15 <MartinD> alanr: discuss it later when there are others like Ivan and Sandro
17:40:37 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: we may get into maintenance problem; can clearly state that text is normative
17:41:27 <MartinD> bijan: with OWL API we already have pretty reliable implementation, no point in preferring one implementation or that it should be part of OWLWG deliverables
17:41:33 <ewallace> OWL API relation to OWL2 spec?
17:41:47 <bijan> OWL API tracks the OWL2 spec
17:42:05 <MartinD> alanr: my concern was satisfied with GRDDL; the main thing now is an easy, compatible translation
17:42:29 <MartinD> bijan: there was supposed to be spec and then possibly different implementations?
17:42:46 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: GRDDL addresses how to do transformation from XSLT 1
17:43:01 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: that was recommended
17:43:58 <JeremyCarroll> That's cute!
17:44:02 <MartinD> alanr: there is a trick, if you want to create a transformation into a language, create a trivial XSLT that replaces the output with the translation... can be done
17:44:06 <bijan> As noted above, each GRDDL transformation specifies a transformation property, a function from XPath document nodes to RDF graphs. This function need not be total; it may have a domain smaller than all XML document nodes. For example, use of xsl:message with terminate="yes" may be used to signal that the input is outside the domain of the transformation.
17:44:25 <alanr> q?
17:44:34 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#txforms
17:44:34 <MartinD> ACTION: alanr to explore whether a simple transformation via XSLT would work in this case
17:44:34 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr
17:44:46 <MartinD> Topic: Other issues discussion
17:45:12 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 111 User intent signalling
17:45:17 <bijan> Jeremy, I don't read the GRDDL spec as you do, afaict
17:45:35 <MartinD> alanr: would be good to allow users to signal, flag that ontology should be interpreted as OWL1, etc.
17:45:49 <MartinD> alanr: in the past MIME type was rejected
17:45:56 <alanr> q?
17:45:57 <bmotik> q+
17:46:01 <MartinD> alanr: Sandro put an initial email, any comments?
17:46:01 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:46:02 <alanr> ack bmotik
17:46:04 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:46:04 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
17:46:06 <IanH> Sorry, but I have to leave now.
17:46:13 <Zakim> -IanH
17:46:37 <MartinD> bmotik: idea was good, we need to include in the doc a switch to use given OWL semantics
17:47:01 <MartinD> bmotik: given RDF doc, we need to see under what OWL it is interpreted (DL, Full,...)
17:47:10 <alanr> action: alanr to show trick for how to *generate* an xslt to create a grddl transform
17:47:10 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr
17:47:13 <MartinD> bmotik: maybe we don't need a switch per profile
17:47:16 <bijan> q+
17:47:20 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:47:20 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:47:25 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:47:48 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: correction - MIME wasn't rejected in principle, just because there was no time
17:48:07 <MartinD> alanr: from notes - this was not needed at the time
17:48:16 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:48:20 <alanr> q?
17:48:29 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:48:29 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
17:48:44 <MartinD> bijan: one problem with MIME - tends not to work offline
17:48:50 <MartinD> bijan: not robust enough
17:49:03 <sandro> q?
17:49:12 <sandro> ack bijan 
17:49:15 <alanr> q+ to ask about what to do about interaction between imports and conflicting user intent
17:49:33 <MartinD> bijan: for profiles - one reason for including is that people may want to signal that a mixed ontology is interpreted in appropriate way (say DL)
17:49:54 <bmotik> Agree with Bijan, but then we might use then a different switch
17:49:55 <MartinD> bijan: not necessary to disambiguate semantics, but good to flag if users want to emphasize
17:50:03 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:50:03 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:50:04 <alanr> ack alanr
17:50:05 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask about what to do about interaction between imports and conflicting user intent
17:50:27 <bijan> importing file wins
17:50:28 <MartinD> alanr: what happens when doing imports and there are different intents in diff files
17:50:39 <MartinD> sandro: mentioned in email, but no good answer
17:50:56 <alanr> q?
17:51:00 <alanr> q+ alanr
17:51:13 <MartinD> sandro: not sure anybody knows how to implement certain combinations = may need to ban certain combinations?
17:51:27 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:51:31 <alanr> ack alanr
17:51:47 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:51:51 <MartinD> alanr: in solving this issue, we need to discuss and know what is the behavior
17:52:19 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: maybe we should have no semantics involved here, just graph (?)
17:52:26 <Zakim> -MarkusK
17:52:51 <Zakim> +??P11
17:52:53 <MartinD> JeremyCarroll: to understand triples if we want to have just a graph, you can't use RDF semantics, as graph has no semantics
17:52:56 <bijan> Ok, in case of incompatible profiles, then a warning to the user SHOULD be signaled and the user offered a choice of which semantics to use
17:53:19 <MartinD> alanr: kind of like intended semantics RDF entailment
17:53:20 <bijan> Rdf Abstract Syntax semantics, simple interpreation, rdf, rdfs...
17:53:22 <sandro> q?
17:53:29 <bijan> er...plus d entailment variants
17:53:57 <MartinD> alanr: specific suggestions from bijan, sandro, jeremy? discuss on email and come back with revised proposal
17:54:08 <sandro> Alan: Bijan, Jeremy, Sandro, Boris --- you four discuss over e-mail and bring back a revised proposal.
17:54:17 <bmotik> Please no, I'm swamped
17:54:20 <bijan> I can reply to sandro's email
17:54:28 <JeremyCarroll> [I am leaving early, sorry. On EasyKeys it would be good to have some Full semantics]
17:54:47 <MartinD> alanr: out of time...
17:54:47 <sandro> Alan: okay - let's let this lie for a few weeks.
17:55:19 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
17:55:20 <MartinD> Topic: General discussion
17:55:28 <MartinD> Topic: Easy keys
17:55:32 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:55:32 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli
17:55:34 <ewallace> top property discussion postponed?
17:55:38 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys
17:55:39 <alanr> yes
17:55:46 <alanr> unless we have remaining time today
17:55:57 <bijan> Rdf mapping: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys#RDF_Mapping
17:56:02 <MartinD> uli: in the easy keys proposals we described a few things more explicit
17:56:29 <MartinD> uli: semantics more explicit, explained why "easy", why this would cause problems
17:56:34 <alanr> q?
17:56:34 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute te
17:56:35 <Zakim> sorry, bmotik, I do not know which phone connection belongs to te
17:56:40 <bmotik> Zakim , unmute me
17:56:46 <bijan> q+
17:56:51 <alanr> ack bijan
17:56:54 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:56:54 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
17:56:56 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:56:56 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:57:05 <bmotik> Sorry, I had problems unmuting me
17:57:14 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:57:14 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:57:38 <MartinD> bijan: there is one raised, open issue - depends on what we do about key and b-nodes (?)... if variables can't do with easy keys
17:57:53 <alanr> q?
17:58:13 <MartinD> alanr: can you collect situations we are trying to accomplish here?
17:58:21 <alanr> q?
17:58:26 <MartinD> bijan: will be included on easy keys page
17:58:39 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:58:39 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:58:50 <alanr> q?
17:58:53 <MartinD> bmotik: spoke to uli and got explanations, so no more reservations left
17:59:05 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:59:05 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:59:17 <bijan> q+
17:59:21 <MartinD> alanr: we don't have achille and zhe - implementers and their position on this
17:59:26 <alanr> ack bijan
18:00:23 <MartinD> bijan: the intent of easy keys was to make it easy for implementation; unless they start messing with datatypes
18:00:35 <ewallace> What is meant by mucking around with datatypes?
18:00:37 <MartinD> bijan: should work with anything that follows datalog rules
18:01:00 <MartinD> alanr: bijan can you add a note about the case you worry about or explain it
18:01:41 <MartinD> bijan: when you thing about dl-safe rules and datalog, you may not have some things (e.g. negation) in the right place, maybe boris, uli can tell more
18:01:46 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:01:46 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:02:12 <ewallace> OK Thanks, looking at that now
18:02:15 <MartinD> bijan: if you have finite datatypes you may have more work to do 
18:02:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:02:26 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:02:29 <bijan> Jeremy left, didn't he?
18:02:34 <MartinD> alanr: Jeremy is also among implementers - any issues?
18:02:41 <alanr> zakime, who is here?
18:02:47 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
18:02:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan, uli (muted), alanr, diegoc (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace, baojie (muted), Elisa_Kendall,
18:02:50 <Zakim> ... Sandro, MarkusK
18:02:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see diegoc, Elisa, JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
18:02:52 <bijan> JeremyCarroll : [I am leaving early, sorry. On EasyKeys it wo
18:02:52 <bijan>         Zakim : -JeremyCarroll
18:02:53 <ewallace> Jeremy left
18:03:23 <MartinD> alanr: affirmative responses from three implementers so that we can report on this
18:03:28 <pfps> q+
18:03:31 <MartinD> alanr: action needed
18:03:33 <alanr> ack pfps
18:03:34 <msmith> 3 /other/ implementers.  bmotik and I both implement reasoners
18:03:50 <bijan> And me, Ian, and Peter
18:04:22 <bijan> (at least)
18:04:24 <MartinD> ... getting response from all implementers on the WG
18:04:25 <alanr> action: alan will get responses from Achille,Zhe, Jeremy as implementors - review of Easy Keys proposal
18:04:25 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-140 - Will get responses from Achille,Zhe, Jeremy as implementors - review of Easy Keys proposal [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-30].
18:04:50 <MartinD> alanr: other comments on easy keys or a straw poll?
18:05:00 <MartinD> alanr: should we go ahead and have this feature added?
18:05:16 <MartinD> alanr: strawpoll - are we ready to add this to spec
18:05:18 <pfps> +1 to proceed on EasyKeys
18:05:19 <sandro> NONBINDING-PROPOSED: add easykeys to spec
18:05:22 <baojie>  +1
18:05:22 <sandro> +1
18:05:23 <msmith> +1 to easy keys, they will be added to Pellet
18:05:23 <MartinD> +1
18:05:24 <bijan> +1 to adding to spec
18:05:25 <uli> +1
18:05:26 <MarkusK> +1
18:05:26 <alanr> +1
18:05:27 <Rinke> +1
18:05:27 <diegoc> +1
18:05:34 <Elisa> +1
18:05:38 <ewallace> +1 to adding EasyKeys with usual qualifications
18:05:42 <bijan> (and fact++)
18:06:03 <MartinD> alanr: looks good, good work from bijan and uli to have proposal in such a good shape
18:06:14 <MartinD> alanr: back to issue l ist
18:06:25 <MartinD> alanr: more discussion on any previous issues
18:06:46 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 71 Data ranges for literals with Language
18:06:52 <bijan> q+
18:07:03 <alanr> ack Bijan
18:07:09 <MartinD> alanr: Jeremy not here, anybody has opinions on this - should we be handling XML literals as well?
18:07:13 <pfps> -1 on XML literals
18:07:34 <pfps> q+ to suggest a facet for this purpose
18:07:41 <alanr> q+ to ask question about XML Literals 
18:07:43 <MartinD> bijan: some variant on extending datatype language is fine, to do it somehow - may be useful
18:08:07 <alanr> q- alanr
18:08:12 <alanr> Bijan asked my question
18:08:28 <alanr> also -1 to XML literals
18:08:36 <MartinD> bijan: XML literals are a bit dodgy - there is some form of inheritance... we should not support this, we don't support many other XML subtyping, because they are a  hard problem
18:08:38 <pfps> .. and not well-formed
18:08:43 <alanr> ack pfps
18:08:43 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to suggest a facet for this purpose
18:08:45 <MartinD> bijan: got for a middle ground
18:08:54 <bijan> +1 to a facet
18:08:58 <MartinD> pfps: suggests facets for this purpose
18:09:17 <bmotik> +1 to adding facets
18:09:17 <MartinD> pfps: you don't to impose syntax...
18:09:19 <bijan> A facet would be an easy add
18:09:36 <MartinD> alanr: will you write something for spec how this may look
18:09:48 <MartinD> pfps: response sent to jeremy, may contain enough info
18:09:49 <bijan> How about an action to add this to the spec?
18:10:07 <MartinD> alanr: jeremy was suggesting wildcarding? is that covered?
18:10:12 <bijan> q+
18:10:15 <alanr> en-*
18:10:18 <bijan> ack bijan
18:10:20 <alanr> ack bijan
18:10:28 <MartinD> alanr: e.g. EN* not necessarily, EN-GB EN-US
18:11:02 <MartinD> bijan: if we want this from scratch, we can represent this using schema - string + values (facets can go into string part)
18:11:31 <MartinD> bijan: this is not a fundamentally difficult thing, just needs to be in a neat way
18:11:57 <alanr> q?
18:11:58 <MartinD> bijan: we should be able to search, cluster strings and in principle it's about having pattern facets
18:12:14 <msmith> pattern facets are in the spec
18:12:17 <MartinD> alanr: what is the status of this right now?
18:12:20 <bijan> xsd:string, xsd:normalizedString, xsd:anyURI,
18:12:20 <bijan> xsd:token, xsd:language, xsd:NMTOKEN,
18:12:20 <bijan> xsd:Name, xsd:NCName,
18:12:20 <bijan> xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary
18:12:20 <bijan> length, minLength, maxLength, pattern
18:12:30 <bijan> Table 1
18:12:56 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Datatype_Restrictions
18:12:59 <MartinD> alanr: will it be easier to use patterns? bijan, will spec ideas?
18:12:59 <bijan> am I offering...
18:13:05 <bijan> I guess 
18:13:29 <alanr> q?
18:13:31 <MartinD> alanr: other comments?
18:13:53 <bijan> ACTION: Work out syntax for langed literals
18:13:53 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Work
18:13:54 <MartinD> Topic: Issue 112 Top property
18:14:09 <bijan> ACTION on bijan to work out syntax for langed literals
18:14:14 <MarkusK> q+
18:14:19 <MartinD> alanr: someone who understands "top" property to update us
18:14:20 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:14:20 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:14:48 <MarkusK> q-
18:14:52 <MartinD> uli: we were unsure how to call it, but for some reason we needed "bottom" role, there was some discussion on universality
18:14:59 <MarkusK> +1 to uli's summary
18:15:05 <MartinD> uli: reasoners can get away with faking this
18:15:09 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:15:09 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:15:47 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:15:47 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:16:01 <MartinD> alanr: bottom role - when debugging ontologies, one thing that came with unsatisfiable roles was that it could not have any values - could this be equivalent to a bottom role (e.g. maxCard 0)
18:16:19 <MartinD> uli: might be a way to fake implementing bottom properties
18:16:30 <MartinD> uli: maybe this needs syntactic sugar to name this
18:16:42 <MartinD> alanr: would this add burden to reasoners?
18:16:43 <ewallace> yes please have name for both topProperty and bottomProperty if supported
18:16:57 <MartinD> uli: not really, reasoners can handle this
18:17:05 <MartinD> alanr: what the name should be
18:17:19 <MartinD> alanr: there are few possibilities, anybody?
18:17:30 <MartinD> uli: some in the email posted recently...
18:17:31 <ewallace> The issue lists: "universalProperty", "thingProperty", "relatesTo", "topProperty", "universal"
18:17:35 <alanr> toAll, toNone
18:17:47 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:17:47 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:17:48 <pfps> goodnight to All
18:18:04 <pfps> goodnight "toAll"
18:18:11 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:18:11 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:18:16 <alanr> relatesTo, doesNotRelateTo
18:18:26 <MartinD> uli: should mirror owl:thing
18:18:33 <MarkusK> +1 to uli "relates to" implies a meaning
18:18:40 <MartinD> uli: relatesTo implies meaning which it doesn't really have
18:18:41 <bijan> owl:TopProperty and owl:BottomProperty
18:18:47 <uli> +1 to bijan
18:18:50 <MarkusK> +1
18:18:56 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:18:56 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:18:59 <pfps> let's do Dr Seuss (Thing and Thing2)
18:19:07 <bijan> owl:BijanProperty and owl:JermeyProperty
18:19:19 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:19:19 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:19:27 <MartinD> alanr: the usual way to read properties is like a sentence - A topproperty B... sounds like relation between them
18:19:56 <MartinD> uli: topProperty should related every individual with every other individual
18:20:07 <bijan> owl:isRelatedVacuouslyTo
18:20:13 <MartinD> uli: "relatesTo" may be too ambiguous
18:20:14 <MarkusK> +1 to uli again: "topProperty" implies no *relevant* relation whatsoever
18:20:17 <pfps> there is the expectation that "relates to" has some domain implication
18:20:18 <bijan> owl:isNotRelatedAtAllNyahNyeahTo
18:20:34 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:20:34 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:20:46 <MartinD> alanr: no problems with this
18:20:56 <MartinD> alanr: strawpoll on adding top and bottom roles to OWL 2
18:21:04 <ewallace> +1 to add top and bottom roles to OWL2
18:21:04 <sandro> NONBINDING-PROPOSED: add "top" and "bottom" by some name, to OWL 2 ?
18:21:09 <MarkusK> +1
18:21:11 <Rinke> +1 to add them
18:21:14 <bijan> +1 
18:21:15 <msmith> +1 to adding top and bottom roles
18:21:17 <alanr> +1
18:21:17 <MartinD> +1
18:21:26 <uli> +1 
18:21:28 <sandro> +0 no clueif it's really useful
18:21:29 <pfps> +top
18:21:57 <MartinD> alanr: we have good sentiment that this is worth adding, let's discuss the actual names on email
18:22:16 <MartinD> alanr: one last thing
18:22:43 <pfps> separate
18:22:43 <MartinD> alanr: where we are going on whether there should be 1 or 2 OWL semantics documents...
18:22:50 <MartinD> alanr: should there be one or separate
18:23:14 <uli> hurray! 
18:23:15 <MartinD> alanr: adjourned 
18:23:19 <ewallace> 5 minutes early!
18:23:20 <uli> bye!
18:23:21 <Elisa> bye
18:23:22 <Zakim> -Sandro
18:23:22 <MarkusK> bye
18:23:23 <Zakim> -baojie
18:23:23 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:23:24 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
18:23:24 <Zakim> -alanr
18:23:25 <Rinke> thanks, bye
18:23:25 <Zakim> -msmith
18:23:26 <Zakim> -MarkusK
18:23:28 <Zakim> -uli
18:23:28 <diegoc> bye
18:23:30 <Zakim> -diegoc
18:23:34 <Zakim> -bijan
18:23:35 <Zakim> -Rinke
18:23:37 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
18:23:43 <Zakim> -MartinD
18:24:10 <alanr> sandro, you got the notes?
18:24:17 <alanr> minutes?
18:24:28 <MartinD> how to generate them
18:24:30 <MartinD> >
18:24:32 <MartinD> ?
18:24:42 <alanr> sandro usuall handles
18:24:50 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:24:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/23-owl-minutes.html alanr
18:24:58 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public
18:25:17 <sandro> MartinD, hold on 5 minutes?
18:25:25 <MartinD> ee, sure
18:26:55 <sandro> Chair: Alan
18:27:02 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees
18:27:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, +90827aaaa, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK,
18:27:05 <Zakim> ... JeremyCarroll, alanr, +1.518.276.aacc, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro
18:27:10 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:27:11 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:27:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, +90827aaaa, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK, JeremyCarroll, alanr,
18:27:14 <Zakim> ... +1.518.276.aacc, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro
18:27:41 <sandro> Present: pfps, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK, JeremyCarroll, alanr, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro
18:29:13 <sandro> Okay, MartinD, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.04.23/Minutes should be a good starting point.
18:29:29 <MartinD> sandro, trackbot was not recognizing actions on users
18:29:36 <sandro> sorry - dismissed DCC chat accidentally.
18:30:01 <MartinD> sandro, trackbot was not recognizing actions on users
18:30:02 <sandro> I'm not surprised.    Um, e-mail Alan and ask what he wants done about that...?
18:30:12 <MartinD> so, there might be some mess in recording actions
18:30:17 <sandro> or e-mail team-owl-chairs@w3.org rather
18:30:30 <sandro> or I can.   never mind -- I'll do it.
18:31:16 <MartinD> ok, thanks... I will look at the minutes later today