IRC log of owl on 2008-04-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:47:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/23-owl-irc
16:47:28 [MartinD]
Zakim, this will be OWLWG
16:47:28 [Zakim]
ok, MartinD; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 47 minutes ago
16:47:49 [MartinD]
ScribeNick: MartinD
16:52:13 [pfps]
pfps has joined #owl
16:53:59 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:54:06 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:54:16 [Zakim]
-Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:54:17 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
16:54:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:54:59 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:55:06 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:56:07 [pfps]
zakim, this will be owlwg
16:56:07 [Zakim]
ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 56 minutes ago
16:56:10 [msmith]
msmith has joined #owl
16:56:20 [pfps]
RRSAgent, make records public
16:56:34 [pfps]
I got kicked off a minute ago, so try again
16:56:55 [bmotik]
bmotik has joined #owl
16:58:09 [pfps]
not since I turned off my speakers :-)
16:58:18 [Rinke]
zakim, who is here
16:58:18 [Zakim]
Rinke, you need to end that query with '?'
16:58:22 [Rinke]
zakim, who is here?
16:58:22 [Zakim]
I notice SW_OWL()12:00PM has restarted
16:58:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P3, +90827aaaa, ??P6
16:58:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
16:58:46 [MartinD]
Zakim, 908 is me
16:58:47 [Zakim]
sorry, MartinD, I do not recognize a party named '908'
16:58:47 [bmotik]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:58:47 [Zakim]
+bmotik; got it
16:58:51 [bijan]
bijan has joined #owl
16:58:52 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
16:58:52 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
16:58:55 [MartinD]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:58:56 [Zakim]
+MartinD; got it
16:59:08 [Rinke]
Zakim, who is here?
16:59:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P3, MartinD, bmotik (muted)
16:59:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
16:59:13 [Rinke]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
16:59:13 [Zakim]
+Rinke; got it
16:59:16 [Rinke]
zakim, mute me
16:59:16 [Zakim]
Rinke should now be muted
16:59:17 [bijan]
bijan has joined #owl
16:59:27 [alanr]
alanr has joined #owl
16:59:28 [MartinD]
zakimm, mute me
16:59:34 [MartinD]
zakim, mute me
16:59:34 [Zakim]
MartinD should now be muted
16:59:36 [uli]
uli has joined #owl
17:00:07 [Zakim]
+??P30
17:00:16 [Zakim]
+??P35
17:00:16 [bijan]
zakim, ??p30 is me
17:00:17 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
17:00:21 [diegoc]
diegoc has joined #owl
17:00:22 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:00:22 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:00:28 [uli]
zakim, ??P35 is me
17:00:28 [Zakim]
+uli; got it
17:00:32 [IanH]
IanH has joined #owl
17:00:35 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:00:35 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:00:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.253.aabb
17:01:23 [Zakim]
+diegoc
17:01:41 [MarkusK]
MarkusK has joined #owl
17:01:45 [Zakim]
+IanH
17:01:53 [Zakim]
+msmith
17:02:06 [Zakim]
+Evan_Wallace
17:02:08 [baojie]
baojie has joined #owl
17:02:10 [alanr]
markus, will you be able to scribe until end of call?
17:02:12 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:02:45 [jeremy_]
jeremy_ has joined #owl
17:02:49 [sandro]
IanH, I'm going to be a bit late to the meeting, sorry.
17:02:51 [bijan]
I request tha nary-data predicates be put on the General Discussions list
17:03:08 [bijan]
There is quite a worked out proposal: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_proposal
17:03:12 [MartinD]
Topic: Roll call
17:03:17 [ewallace]
Agenda amendments: I have change the deadline for action 112 so this need not be discussed
17:03:26 [alanr]
noted
17:03:45 [bijan]
And there is an issue: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/5
17:03:46 [bijan]
Great
17:03:50 [MartinD]
zakim, unmute me
17:03:50 [Zakim]
MartinD should no longer be muted
17:04:10 [Zakim]
+??P13
17:04:33 [alanr]
no
17:04:40 [MarkusK]
alanr, I think so -- is there another scribe before me or am I the only one?
17:04:40 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:04:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli (muted), +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace,
17:04:45 [Zakim]
... MarkusK, jeremy_
17:04:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, diegoc, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
17:05:01 [MartinD]
I am scribing.... no probs... things setup
17:05:23 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:05:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli (muted), +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace,
17:05:27 [Zakim]
... MarkusK, JeremyCarroll
17:05:28 [MartinD]
alanr: we're starting
17:05:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, diegoc, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
17:05:44 [alanr]
zakim,aabb is me
17:05:44 [Zakim]
+alanr; got it
17:06:00 [MartinD]
Topic: Agenda amendments
17:06:19 [MartinD]
Alanr: F2F - we're settling 18-29 July at MIT
17:06:28 [alanr]
28-29
17:06:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aacc
17:06:34 [MartinD]
a/18/28
17:06:43 [baojie]
Zakim, aacc is baojie
17:06:43 [Zakim]
+baojie; got it
17:06:43 [alanr]
q?
17:07:01 [alanr]
zakim, who is talking
17:07:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is talking', alanr
17:07:14 [IanH]
Is it just me or has the line gone dead?
17:07:23 [JeremyCarroll]
Zakim, who is speaking?
17:07:23 [diegoc]
i hear just static
17:07:27 [alanr]
static
17:07:31 [IanH]
here too
17:07:36 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
17:07:40 [JeremyCarroll]
liar
17:07:49 [ewallace]
Sound like background noise
17:07:49 [alanr]
mutes baojie
17:07:56 [alanr]
zakim, mute baojie
17:07:56 [Zakim]
baojie should now be muted
17:08:00 [IanH]
better!
17:08:20 [MartinD]
Alanr: F2F - we're settling 28-29 July at MIT
17:08:35 [Rinke]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/41712/f2f3_dates/results
17:08:38 [MartinD]
alanr: topic on issues raised and how handled
17:09:01 [MartinD]
alanr: talking to IanH and things are going to change how issues are handled, raised,
17:09:14 [MartinD]
alanr: there was an email about first batch of issues to review
17:09:32 [MartinD]
Topic: Pending actions
17:10:13 [MartinD]
alanr: four points - update on RDF mapping (ISSUE 115)
17:10:32 [MartinD]
alanr: ISSUE 137, ISSUE 120, ISSUE 138
17:10:58 [alanr]
q?
17:11:01 [MartinD]
{Action|115} Update the RDF mapping with the accepted resolution of ISSUE-12 as per Peter's suggestion/Boris
17:11:13 [MartinD]
PROPOSED: the above issues to be considered done
17:11:26 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:11:26 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
17:11:27 [bijan]
My overdue acitions got siderailed by the easyclasskey discussion so remain undone
17:11:31 [bijan]
Should be done in a few days
17:11:37 [MartinD]
RESOLVED: SSUE 137, ISSUE 120, ISSUE 138, ISSUE 115 done
17:11:43 [MartinD]
Topic: Previous minutes
17:11:52 [pfps]
minimally acceptable - scribes should prefix their comments with their names
17:11:54 [MartinD]
alanr: are minutes acceptable?
17:12:13 [uli]
I will change my comments...
17:12:19 [MartinD]
PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (16 April)
17:12:37 [MartinD]
RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (16 April)
17:13:04 [MartinD]
Action 115 (Update the RDF mapping with the accepted resolution of ISSUE-12 as per Peter's suggestion/Boris)
17:13:06 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:13:06 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:13:10 [bijan]
Scroll up in the log
17:13:25 [bijan]
bijan : My overdue acitions got siderailed by the easyclasskey discussion so remain undone
17:13:25 [bijan]
bijan : Should be done in a few days
17:13:29 [MartinD]
bijan: should be done in a few days
17:14:09 [MartinD]
Jeremy: to review doc on OWL compatibility with RIF - prob. mid May
17:14:31 [MartinD]
Topic: Raised Issues
17:14:37 [MartinD]
alanr: will be timed to 30 mins
17:15:02 [MartinD]
alanr: two raised issues 113 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/113)
17:15:28 [MartinD]
alanr: Open/Shut per Jeremy's note (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0198.html)
17:15:39 [JeremyCarroll]
issue-113: I am OK with this (but still -epsilon vote!)
17:15:40 [MartinD]
alanr: Issue 115 Icon needed for the WG pages.
17:15:42 [pfps]
i'll remind him
17:15:49 [MartinD]
alanr: minor change, not related to OWL
17:16:05 [MartinD]
alanr: Issue 120 Bug fixes to OWL 1 Semantics/Backwards compatibility
17:16:20 [MartinD]
alanr: considered editorial, already updated to reflect the issue
17:16:22 [alanr]
q?
17:16:25 [MartinD]
alanr: any further issues
17:16:36 [MartinD]
alanr: proposals to resolve issues
17:16:59 [MartinD]
alanr: {Issue|22} Syntactic sugar for a rule, per email
17:17:05 [MarkusK]
q+
17:17:11 [JeremyCarroll]
+1
17:17:11 [MartinD]
alanr: we suggest to close it with no action
17:17:16 [alanr]
q?
17:17:50 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to mention possibility of postponement
17:17:55 [MartinD]
markusk: ok to close but there are some issues that may violate rules in the future, in theory problematic
17:17:58 [uli]
q+ to comment
17:18:05 [MartinD]
alanr: does this affect spec?
17:18:15 [alanr]
ack Markus
17:18:33 [MartinD]
markusk: if you want to express...
17:18:49 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:18:49 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention possibility of postponement
17:19:12 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:19:12 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
17:19:12 [MartinD]
Jeremy: maybe we should postpone these issues to future WG-s?
17:19:21 [MartinD]
Uli: agrees to close this issue
17:19:33 [MartinD]
uli: maybe consider this in the next extensions to OWL
17:19:39 [MarkusK]
OK, I am fine with that.
17:19:51 [MartinD]
uli: might not be right point to talk about this, also late?
17:20:09 [MartinD]
alanr: non-structural constraints in the current work?
17:20:11 [alanr]
closed: "no action" sort of postponed.
17:20:23 [Rinke]
this email from Carsten just came in, http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.64.0804231914440.2230%2540frege.inf.tu-dresden.de
17:20:29 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to further argue for postponement
17:20:29 [MartinD]
uli: some work can be done, but not really to change it all now
17:20:41 [MartinD]
alanr: nothing to do on this now...
17:20:52 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:20:52 [Zakim]
uli was not muted, uli
17:20:59 [ewallace]
me too
17:21:08 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:21:08 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:21:28 [MartinD]
PROPOSED: Consider ISSUE 22 formally postponed
17:21:41 [MarkusK]
+1 to postpone
17:21:42 [uli]
+1
17:21:43 [JeremyCarroll]
+1
17:21:44 [alanr]
+1
17:21:46 [bmotik]
+1
17:21:46 [MartinD]
+1
17:21:47 [Rinke]
+1
17:21:47 [diegoc]
+1
17:21:48 [IanH]
+1
17:21:50 [msmith]
+1
17:21:52 [ewallace]
+1
17:21:56 [bijan]
+1
17:22:07 [MartinD]
RESOLVED: Consider ISSUE 22 formally postponed
17:22:25 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents,
17:22:48 [MartinD]
alanr: some errors spotted in OWL doc, since they are not worked on, we should close or postpone this
17:22:59 [pfps]
q+
17:23:04 [MartinD]
alanr: suggests postponing
17:23:04 [uli]
q-
17:23:08 [alanr]
ack uli
17:23:20 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:23:20 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to further argue for postponement
17:23:24 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: probably postpone is better
17:23:25 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:23:44 [Elisa]
Elisa has joined #owl
17:23:50 [ewallace]
postpone is better
17:23:58 [bijan]
None of the erros show up in OWL2 yes?
17:24:01 [MartinD]
alanr: strawpoll on postpone vs. close
17:24:01 [JeremyCarroll]
I will vote 0 but don't wish to argue further
17:24:04 [ewallace]
postpone
17:24:06 [bmotik]
Close
17:24:06 [pfps]
close
17:24:08 [JeremyCarroll]
0 (neither postpone nor close)
17:24:11 [Rinke]
close, I guess
17:24:13 [alanr]
0
17:24:14 [IanH]
close
17:24:14 [uli]
close
17:24:16 [diegoc]
0
17:24:18 [baojie]
0
17:24:19 [MartinD]
0
17:24:23 [bijan]
Close
17:24:25 [msmith]
clsoe
17:24:30 [MartinD]
alanr: let's close it then
17:24:39 [MartinD]
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE 57
17:24:42 [JeremyCarroll]
0
17:24:45 [ewallace]
0
17:24:58 [Zakim]
+Elisa_Kendall
17:24:59 [JeremyCarroll]
as moot
17:25:21 [JeremyCarroll]
0
17:25:21 [bmotik]
+1
17:25:23 [alanr]
+1
17:25:23 [ewallace]
0
17:25:25 [pfps]
+1 to close
17:25:32 [uli]
+1
17:25:32 [IanH]
+1
17:25:34 [bijan]
+1 to the moot
17:25:35 [Rinke]
+1 close
17:25:37 [MartinD]
PROPOSED: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents closed as moot (not relevant)
17:25:41 [msmith]
+1 to close
17:25:44 [Elisa]
0
17:25:46 [diegoc]
+1
17:25:49 [MarkusK]
+1
17:25:57 [MartinD]
RESOLVED: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents closed as moot (not relevant)
17:26:09 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 106 OWL 2 namespace per proposal
17:26:20 [bmotik]
q+
17:26:27 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:26:27 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
17:26:30 [alanr]
ack bmotik
17:26:35 [MartinD]
alanr: what about namespaces? we keep old one, so OWL2 has the same namespace as the old one
17:26:56 [MartinD]
bmotik: are we talking about RDF only or also about XML
17:27:01 [MartinD]
alanr: only about RDF
17:27:02 [bijan]
+super1
17:27:02 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:27:04 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:27:39 [alanr]
PROPOSED Resolve Issue 57 by saying that new OWL 2 vocabulary goes in old OWL 1 namespace
17:27:42 [JeremyCarroll]
0 (there are differences of opinion in HP)
17:27:42 [bmotik]
+100
17:27:44 [pfps]
+1 to make owl2 be the same as owl :-)
17:27:46 [alanr]
+1
17:27:49 [ewallace]
0
17:27:52 [MartinD]
+1
17:27:53 [Rinke]
0
17:27:54 [baojie]
0
17:27:54 [IanH]
+1
17:27:57 [diegoc]
+1
17:27:59 [uli]
+1
17:28:00 [bijan]
+1
17:28:04 [Elisa]
0
17:28:11 [MarkusK]
+1
17:28:11 [alanr]
ACCEPTED Resolve Issue 57 by saying that new OWL 2 vocabulary goes in old OWL 1 namespace
17:28:28 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 63 Defining an RDFS compatible semantics
17:28:37 [MartinD]
alanr: not sure if to accept this as a real issue
17:28:40 [JeremyCarroll]
+1
17:28:45 [MartinD]
alanr: should we close it completed
17:29:02 [alanr]
PROPOSED Close Issue 63 as done.
17:29:04 [ewallace]
+1
17:29:05 [alanr]
q?
17:29:09 [alanr]
+1
17:29:10 [pfps]
+1 to agree that we're doing what we should
17:29:10 [Rinke]
+1
17:29:13 [bmotik]
+1
17:29:14 [MartinD]
0
17:29:15 [msmith]
+1 to close ISSUE-63
17:29:17 [MarkusK]
+1
17:29:17 [diegoc]
+1
17:29:19 [uli]
+1
17:29:20 [IanH]
+1
17:29:22 [Elisa]
+1
17:29:31 [baojie]
+1
17:29:34 [alanr]
RESOLVED Close Issue 63 as done.
17:29:35 [diegoc]
diegoc has left #owl
17:29:54 [ewallace]
s/ACCEPTED/RESOLVED
17:30:00 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue discussion
17:30:09 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 119 Russel paradox in OWL Full due to self restrictions.
17:30:26 [MartinD]
alanr: OWL full comprehension issue
17:30:39 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to ask peter about solipism
17:30:47 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:30:47 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to ask peter about solipism
17:31:05 [diegoc]
diegoc has joined #owl
17:31:12 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: to members of previous OWLWG, whether there is new evidence to reconsider comprehension principle?
17:31:18 [pfps]
q+
17:31:23 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:31:45 [MartinD]
pfps: relationship between DL and Full needs rethink
17:32:01 [MartinD]
pfps: if comprehension principle goes away
17:32:20 [pfps]
q+
17:32:30 [MartinD]
alanr: what do we lose if we go the wway Jeremy proposed
17:33:23 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:33:26 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: deleting all comprehension principles allows us to rethink all relations, practically that might not be valuable?
17:33:43 [MartinD]
pfps: one can do a patch to keep things the same,
17:33:59 [MartinD]
pfps: that might be adequate
17:34:03 [IanH]
q+
17:34:15 [alanr]
ack IanH
17:34:15 [JeremyCarroll]
Have I seen this patch?
17:34:17 [IanH]
zakim, unmute me
17:34:17 [Zakim]
IanH was not muted, IanH
17:34:30 [MartinD]
alanr: action on Peter or Ian?
17:34:51 [MartinD]
IanH: agrees with Peter, needs convincing that we should completely revise OWL Full semantics
17:35:10 [MartinD]
IanH: this might be close to "out of scope" w.r.t. our charter
17:35:35 [bijan]
I wouldn't mind a new owl full, whether we can agree on the new version is a different issue :)
17:35:37 [MartinD]
alanr: someone should coordinate, sheperd the patching process
17:35:40 [IanH]
OK
17:36:09 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:36:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli, alanr, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK,
17:36:14 [Zakim]
... JeremyCarroll, baojie (muted), Elisa_Kendall
17:36:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see diegoc, Elisa, JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
17:36:28 [MartinD]
ACTION: IanH to sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119)
17:36:28 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - IanH
17:36:49 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 97 Add GRDDL to OWL/XML Syntax
17:36:51 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ on 97
17:37:02 [bijan]
q+
17:37:08 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:37:14 [MartinD]
alanr: anyone willing to take this issue?
17:37:15 [alanr]
ack on
17:37:16 [JeremyCarroll]
q- on
17:37:20 [JeremyCarroll]
q- 97
17:37:34 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:37:34 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
17:37:41 [alanr]
q?
17:37:45 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:37:47 [MartinD]
bijan: wants to say a thing on GRDDL
17:37:50 [IanH]
ACTION: IanH to sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119)
17:37:50 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - IanH
17:38:21 [JeremyCarroll]
I think we need the XSLT!
17:38:33 [IanH]
RSSAgent claims not to recognise me -- I will do it the old fashioned way!
17:38:40 [MartinD]
bijan: this seems to be almost editorial, depends on what level we are looking at this...
17:39:01 [MartinD]
bijan: there might be issue with going only for XSLT transformations
17:39:19 [JeremyCarroll]
That's a real difference of opinion
17:39:33 [Rinke]
Think I agree with bijan on this point, esp. since the syntax is still in flux
17:39:49 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to respond to Bijan
17:39:59 [MartinD]
alanr: new information; why don't we ...
17:40:02 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:40:02 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to respond to Bijan
17:40:15 [MartinD]
alanr: discuss it later when there are others like Ivan and Sandro
17:40:37 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: we may get into maintenance problem; can clearly state that text is normative
17:41:27 [MartinD]
bijan: with OWL API we already have pretty reliable implementation, no point in preferring one implementation or that it should be part of OWLWG deliverables
17:41:33 [ewallace]
OWL API relation to OWL2 spec?
17:41:47 [bijan]
OWL API tracks the OWL2 spec
17:42:05 [MartinD]
alanr: my concern was satisfied with GRDDL; the main thing now is an easy, compatible translation
17:42:29 [MartinD]
bijan: there was supposed to be spec and then possibly different implementations?
17:42:46 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: GRDDL addresses how to do transformation from XSLT 1
17:43:01 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: that was recommended
17:43:58 [JeremyCarroll]
That's cute!
17:44:02 [MartinD]
alanr: there is a trick, if you want to create a transformation into a language, create a trivial XSLT that replaces the output with the translation... can be done
17:44:06 [bijan]
As noted above, each GRDDL transformation specifies a transformation property, a function from XPath document nodes to RDF graphs. This function need not be total; it may have a domain smaller than all XML document nodes. For example, use of xsl:message with terminate="yes" may be used to signal that the input is outside the domain of the transformation.
17:44:25 [alanr]
q?
17:44:34 [bijan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#txforms
17:44:34 [MartinD]
ACTION: alanr to explore whether a simple transformation via XSLT would work in this case
17:44:34 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr
17:44:46 [MartinD]
Topic: Other issues discussion
17:45:12 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 111 User intent signalling
17:45:17 [bijan]
Jeremy, I don't read the GRDDL spec as you do, afaict
17:45:35 [MartinD]
alanr: would be good to allow users to signal, flag that ontology should be interpreted as OWL1, etc.
17:45:49 [MartinD]
alanr: in the past MIME type was rejected
17:45:56 [alanr]
q?
17:45:57 [bmotik]
q+
17:46:01 [MartinD]
alanr: Sandro put an initial email, any comments?
17:46:01 [JeremyCarroll]
q+
17:46:02 [alanr]
ack bmotik
17:46:04 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:46:04 [Zakim]
bmotik was not muted, bmotik
17:46:06 [IanH]
Sorry, but I have to leave now.
17:46:13 [Zakim]
-IanH
17:46:37 [MartinD]
bmotik: idea was good, we need to include in the doc a switch to use given OWL semantics
17:47:01 [MartinD]
bmotik: given RDF doc, we need to see under what OWL it is interpreted (DL, Full,...)
17:47:10 [alanr]
action: alanr to show trick for how to *generate* an xslt to create a grddl transform
17:47:10 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr
17:47:13 [MartinD]
bmotik: maybe we don't need a switch per profile
17:47:16 [bijan]
q+
17:47:20 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:47:20 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:47:25 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:47:48 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: correction - MIME wasn't rejected in principle, just because there was no time
17:48:07 [MartinD]
alanr: from notes - this was not needed at the time
17:48:16 [Zakim]
+Sandro
17:48:20 [alanr]
q?
17:48:29 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:48:29 [Zakim]
bijan was not muted, bijan
17:48:44 [MartinD]
bijan: one problem with MIME - tends not to work offline
17:48:50 [MartinD]
bijan: not robust enough
17:49:03 [sandro]
q?
17:49:12 [sandro]
ack bijan
17:49:15 [alanr]
q+ to ask about what to do about interaction between imports and conflicting user intent
17:49:33 [MartinD]
bijan: for profiles - one reason for including is that people may want to signal that a mixed ontology is interpreted in appropriate way (say DL)
17:49:54 [bmotik]
Agree with Bijan, but then we might use then a different switch
17:49:55 [MartinD]
bijan: not necessary to disambiguate semantics, but good to flag if users want to emphasize
17:50:03 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:50:03 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:50:04 [alanr]
ack alanr
17:50:05 [Zakim]
alanr, you wanted to ask about what to do about interaction between imports and conflicting user intent
17:50:27 [bijan]
importing file wins
17:50:28 [MartinD]
alanr: what happens when doing imports and there are different intents in diff files
17:50:39 [MartinD]
sandro: mentioned in email, but no good answer
17:50:56 [alanr]
q?
17:51:00 [alanr]
q+ alanr
17:51:13 [MartinD]
sandro: not sure anybody knows how to implement certain combinations = may need to ban certain combinations?
17:51:27 [JeremyCarroll]
q+
17:51:31 [alanr]
ack alanr
17:51:47 [alanr]
ack JeremyCarroll
17:51:51 [MartinD]
alanr: in solving this issue, we need to discuss and know what is the behavior
17:52:19 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: maybe we should have no semantics involved here, just graph (?)
17:52:26 [Zakim]
-MarkusK
17:52:51 [Zakim]
+??P11
17:52:53 [MartinD]
JeremyCarroll: to understand triples if we want to have just a graph, you can't use RDF semantics, as graph has no semantics
17:52:56 [bijan]
Ok, in case of incompatible profiles, then a warning to the user SHOULD be signaled and the user offered a choice of which semantics to use
17:53:19 [MartinD]
alanr: kind of like intended semantics RDF entailment
17:53:20 [bijan]
Rdf Abstract Syntax semantics, simple interpreation, rdf, rdfs...
17:53:22 [sandro]
q?
17:53:29 [bijan]
er...plus d entailment variants
17:53:57 [MartinD]
alanr: specific suggestions from bijan, sandro, jeremy? discuss on email and come back with revised proposal
17:54:08 [sandro]
Alan: Bijan, Jeremy, Sandro, Boris --- you four discuss over e-mail and bring back a revised proposal.
17:54:17 [bmotik]
Please no, I'm swamped
17:54:20 [bijan]
I can reply to sandro's email
17:54:28 [JeremyCarroll]
[I am leaving early, sorry. On EasyKeys it would be good to have some Full semantics]
17:54:47 [MartinD]
alanr: out of time...
17:54:47 [sandro]
Alan: okay - let's let this lie for a few weeks.
17:55:19 [Zakim]
-JeremyCarroll
17:55:20 [MartinD]
Topic: General discussion
17:55:28 [MartinD]
Topic: Easy keys
17:55:32 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:55:32 [Zakim]
uli was not muted, uli
17:55:34 [ewallace]
top property discussion postponed?
17:55:38 [bijan]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys
17:55:39 [alanr]
yes
17:55:46 [alanr]
unless we have remaining time today
17:55:57 [bijan]
Rdf mapping: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys#RDF_Mapping
17:56:02 [MartinD]
uli: in the easy keys proposals we described a few things more explicit
17:56:29 [MartinD]
uli: semantics more explicit, explained why "easy", why this would cause problems
17:56:34 [alanr]
q?
17:56:34 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute te
17:56:35 [Zakim]
sorry, bmotik, I do not know which phone connection belongs to te
17:56:40 [bmotik]
Zakim , unmute me
17:56:46 [bijan]
q+
17:56:51 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:56:54 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:56:54 [Zakim]
bijan was not muted, bijan
17:56:56 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:56:56 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
17:57:05 [bmotik]
Sorry, I had problems unmuting me
17:57:14 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:57:14 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:57:38 [MartinD]
bijan: there is one raised, open issue - depends on what we do about key and b-nodes (?)... if variables can't do with easy keys
17:57:53 [alanr]
q?
17:58:13 [MartinD]
alanr: can you collect situations we are trying to accomplish here?
17:58:21 [alanr]
q?
17:58:26 [MartinD]
bijan: will be included on easy keys page
17:58:39 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:58:39 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:58:50 [alanr]
q?
17:58:53 [MartinD]
bmotik: spoke to uli and got explanations, so no more reservations left
17:59:05 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:59:05 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:59:17 [bijan]
q+
17:59:21 [MartinD]
alanr: we don't have achille and zhe - implementers and their position on this
17:59:26 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:00:23 [MartinD]
bijan: the intent of easy keys was to make it easy for implementation; unless they start messing with datatypes
18:00:35 [ewallace]
What is meant by mucking around with datatypes?
18:00:37 [MartinD]
bijan: should work with anything that follows datalog rules
18:01:00 [MartinD]
alanr: bijan can you add a note about the case you worry about or explain it
18:01:41 [MartinD]
bijan: when you thing about dl-safe rules and datalog, you may not have some things (e.g. negation) in the right place, maybe boris, uli can tell more
18:01:46 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:01:46 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:02:12 [ewallace]
OK Thanks, looking at that now
18:02:15 [MartinD]
bijan: if you have finite datatypes you may have more work to do
18:02:26 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:02:26 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:02:29 [bijan]
Jeremy left, didn't he?
18:02:34 [MartinD]
alanr: Jeremy is also among implementers - any issues?
18:02:41 [alanr]
zakime, who is here?
18:02:47 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
18:02:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan, uli (muted), alanr, diegoc (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace, baojie (muted), Elisa_Kendall,
18:02:50 [Zakim]
... Sandro, MarkusK
18:02:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see diegoc, Elisa, JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro
18:02:52 [bijan]
JeremyCarroll : [I am leaving early, sorry. On EasyKeys it wo
18:02:52 [bijan]
Zakim : -JeremyCarroll
18:02:53 [ewallace]
Jeremy left
18:03:23 [MartinD]
alanr: affirmative responses from three implementers so that we can report on this
18:03:28 [pfps]
q+
18:03:31 [MartinD]
alanr: action needed
18:03:33 [alanr]
ack pfps
18:03:34 [msmith]
3 /other/ implementers. bmotik and I both implement reasoners
18:03:50 [bijan]
And me, Ian, and Peter
18:04:22 [bijan]
(at least)
18:04:24 [MartinD]
... getting response from all implementers on the WG
18:04:25 [alanr]
action: alan will get responses from Achille,Zhe, Jeremy as implementors - review of Easy Keys proposal
18:04:25 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-140 - Will get responses from Achille,Zhe, Jeremy as implementors - review of Easy Keys proposal [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-30].
18:04:50 [MartinD]
alanr: other comments on easy keys or a straw poll?
18:05:00 [MartinD]
alanr: should we go ahead and have this feature added?
18:05:16 [MartinD]
alanr: strawpoll - are we ready to add this to spec
18:05:18 [pfps]
+1 to proceed on EasyKeys
18:05:19 [sandro]
NONBINDING-PROPOSED: add easykeys to spec
18:05:22 [baojie]
+1
18:05:22 [sandro]
+1
18:05:23 [msmith]
+1 to easy keys, they will be added to Pellet
18:05:23 [MartinD]
+1
18:05:24 [bijan]
+1 to adding to spec
18:05:25 [uli]
+1
18:05:26 [MarkusK]
+1
18:05:26 [alanr]
+1
18:05:27 [Rinke]
+1
18:05:27 [diegoc]
+1
18:05:34 [Elisa]
+1
18:05:38 [ewallace]
+1 to adding EasyKeys with usual qualifications
18:05:42 [bijan]
(and fact++)
18:06:03 [MartinD]
alanr: looks good, good work from bijan and uli to have proposal in such a good shape
18:06:14 [MartinD]
alanr: back to issue l ist
18:06:25 [MartinD]
alanr: more discussion on any previous issues
18:06:46 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 71 Data ranges for literals with Language
18:06:52 [bijan]
q+
18:07:03 [alanr]
ack Bijan
18:07:09 [MartinD]
alanr: Jeremy not here, anybody has opinions on this - should we be handling XML literals as well?
18:07:13 [pfps]
-1 on XML literals
18:07:34 [pfps]
q+ to suggest a facet for this purpose
18:07:41 [alanr]
q+ to ask question about XML Literals
18:07:43 [MartinD]
bijan: some variant on extending datatype language is fine, to do it somehow - may be useful
18:08:07 [alanr]
q- alanr
18:08:12 [alanr]
Bijan asked my question
18:08:28 [alanr]
also -1 to XML literals
18:08:36 [MartinD]
bijan: XML literals are a bit dodgy - there is some form of inheritance... we should not support this, we don't support many other XML subtyping, because they are a hard problem
18:08:38 [pfps]
.. and not well-formed
18:08:43 [alanr]
ack pfps
18:08:43 [Zakim]
pfps, you wanted to suggest a facet for this purpose
18:08:45 [MartinD]
bijan: got for a middle ground
18:08:54 [bijan]
+1 to a facet
18:08:58 [MartinD]
pfps: suggests facets for this purpose
18:09:17 [bmotik]
+1 to adding facets
18:09:17 [MartinD]
pfps: you don't to impose syntax...
18:09:19 [bijan]
A facet would be an easy add
18:09:36 [MartinD]
alanr: will you write something for spec how this may look
18:09:48 [MartinD]
pfps: response sent to jeremy, may contain enough info
18:09:49 [bijan]
How about an action to add this to the spec?
18:10:07 [MartinD]
alanr: jeremy was suggesting wildcarding? is that covered?
18:10:12 [bijan]
q+
18:10:15 [alanr]
en-*
18:10:18 [bijan]
ack bijan
18:10:20 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:10:28 [MartinD]
alanr: e.g. EN* not necessarily, EN-GB EN-US
18:11:02 [MartinD]
bijan: if we want this from scratch, we can represent this using schema - string + values (facets can go into string part)
18:11:31 [MartinD]
bijan: this is not a fundamentally difficult thing, just needs to be in a neat way
18:11:57 [alanr]
q?
18:11:58 [MartinD]
bijan: we should be able to search, cluster strings and in principle it's about having pattern facets
18:12:14 [msmith]
pattern facets are in the spec
18:12:17 [MartinD]
alanr: what is the status of this right now?
18:12:20 [bijan]
xsd:string, xsd:normalizedString, xsd:anyURI,
18:12:20 [bijan]
xsd:token, xsd:language, xsd:NMTOKEN,
18:12:20 [bijan]
xsd:Name, xsd:NCName,
18:12:20 [bijan]
xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary
18:12:20 [bijan]
length, minLength, maxLength, pattern
18:12:30 [bijan]
Table 1
18:12:56 [bijan]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Datatype_Restrictions
18:12:59 [MartinD]
alanr: will it be easier to use patterns? bijan, will spec ideas?
18:12:59 [bijan]
am I offering...
18:13:05 [bijan]
I guess
18:13:29 [alanr]
q?
18:13:31 [MartinD]
alanr: other comments?
18:13:53 [bijan]
ACTION: Work out syntax for langed literals
18:13:53 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Work
18:13:54 [MartinD]
Topic: Issue 112 Top property
18:14:09 [bijan]
ACTION on bijan to work out syntax for langed literals
18:14:14 [MarkusK]
q+
18:14:19 [MartinD]
alanr: someone who understands "top" property to update us
18:14:20 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:14:20 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:14:48 [MarkusK]
q-
18:14:52 [MartinD]
uli: we were unsure how to call it, but for some reason we needed "bottom" role, there was some discussion on universality
18:14:59 [MarkusK]
+1 to uli's summary
18:15:05 [MartinD]
uli: reasoners can get away with faking this
18:15:09 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:15:09 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:15:47 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:15:47 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:16:01 [MartinD]
alanr: bottom role - when debugging ontologies, one thing that came with unsatisfiable roles was that it could not have any values - could this be equivalent to a bottom role (e.g. maxCard 0)
18:16:19 [MartinD]
uli: might be a way to fake implementing bottom properties
18:16:30 [MartinD]
uli: maybe this needs syntactic sugar to name this
18:16:42 [MartinD]
alanr: would this add burden to reasoners?
18:16:43 [ewallace]
yes please have name for both topProperty and bottomProperty if supported
18:16:57 [MartinD]
uli: not really, reasoners can handle this
18:17:05 [MartinD]
alanr: what the name should be
18:17:19 [MartinD]
alanr: there are few possibilities, anybody?
18:17:30 [MartinD]
uli: some in the email posted recently...
18:17:31 [ewallace]
The issue lists: "universalProperty", "thingProperty", "relatesTo", "topProperty", "universal"
18:17:35 [alanr]
toAll, toNone
18:17:47 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:17:47 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:17:48 [pfps]
goodnight to All
18:18:04 [pfps]
goodnight "toAll"
18:18:11 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:18:11 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:18:16 [alanr]
relatesTo, doesNotRelateTo
18:18:26 [MartinD]
uli: should mirror owl:thing
18:18:33 [MarkusK]
+1 to uli "relates to" implies a meaning
18:18:40 [MartinD]
uli: relatesTo implies meaning which it doesn't really have
18:18:41 [bijan]
owl:TopProperty and owl:BottomProperty
18:18:47 [uli]
+1 to bijan
18:18:50 [MarkusK]
+1
18:18:56 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:18:56 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:18:59 [pfps]
let's do Dr Seuss (Thing and Thing2)
18:19:07 [bijan]
owl:BijanProperty and owl:JermeyProperty
18:19:19 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:19:19 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:19:27 [MartinD]
alanr: the usual way to read properties is like a sentence - A topproperty B... sounds like relation between them
18:19:56 [MartinD]
uli: topProperty should related every individual with every other individual
18:20:07 [bijan]
owl:isRelatedVacuouslyTo
18:20:13 [MartinD]
uli: "relatesTo" may be too ambiguous
18:20:14 [MarkusK]
+1 to uli again: "topProperty" implies no *relevant* relation whatsoever
18:20:17 [pfps]
there is the expectation that "relates to" has some domain implication
18:20:18 [bijan]
owl:isNotRelatedAtAllNyahNyeahTo
18:20:34 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:20:34 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:20:46 [MartinD]
alanr: no problems with this
18:20:56 [MartinD]
alanr: strawpoll on adding top and bottom roles to OWL 2
18:21:04 [ewallace]
+1 to add top and bottom roles to OWL2
18:21:04 [sandro]
NONBINDING-PROPOSED: add "top" and "bottom" by some name, to OWL 2 ?
18:21:09 [MarkusK]
+1
18:21:11 [Rinke]
+1 to add them
18:21:14 [bijan]
+1
18:21:15 [msmith]
+1 to adding top and bottom roles
18:21:17 [alanr]
+1
18:21:17 [MartinD]
+1
18:21:26 [uli]
+1
18:21:28 [sandro]
+0 no clueif it's really useful
18:21:29 [pfps]
+top
18:21:57 [MartinD]
alanr: we have good sentiment that this is worth adding, let's discuss the actual names on email
18:22:16 [MartinD]
alanr: one last thing
18:22:43 [pfps]
separate
18:22:43 [MartinD]
alanr: where we are going on whether there should be 1 or 2 OWL semantics documents...
18:22:50 [MartinD]
alanr: should there be one or separate
18:23:14 [uli]
hurray!
18:23:15 [MartinD]
alanr: adjourned
18:23:19 [ewallace]
5 minutes early!
18:23:20 [uli]
bye!
18:23:21 [Elisa]
bye
18:23:22 [Zakim]
-Sandro
18:23:22 [MarkusK]
bye
18:23:23 [Zakim]
-baojie
18:23:23 [Zakim]
-bmotik
18:23:24 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
18:23:24 [Zakim]
-alanr
18:23:25 [Rinke]
thanks, bye
18:23:25 [Zakim]
-msmith
18:23:26 [Zakim]
-MarkusK
18:23:28 [Zakim]
-uli
18:23:28 [diegoc]
bye
18:23:30 [Zakim]
-diegoc
18:23:34 [Zakim]
-bijan
18:23:35 [Zakim]
-Rinke
18:23:37 [Zakim]
-Elisa_Kendall
18:23:43 [Zakim]
-MartinD
18:24:10 [alanr]
sandro, you got the notes?
18:24:17 [alanr]
minutes?
18:24:28 [MartinD]
how to generate them
18:24:30 [MartinD]
>
18:24:32 [MartinD]
?
18:24:42 [alanr]
sandro usuall handles
18:24:50 [alanr]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:24:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/23-owl-minutes.html alanr
18:24:58 [alanr]
rrsagent, make log public
18:25:17 [sandro]
MartinD, hold on 5 minutes?
18:25:25 [MartinD]
ee, sure
18:26:55 [sandro]
Chair: Alan
18:27:02 [sandro]
Zakim, list attendees
18:27:02 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, +90827aaaa, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK,
18:27:05 [Zakim]
... JeremyCarroll, alanr, +1.518.276.aacc, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro
18:27:10 [Zakim]
-Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:27:11 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:27:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, +90827aaaa, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK, JeremyCarroll, alanr,
18:27:14 [Zakim]
... +1.518.276.aacc, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro
18:27:41 [sandro]
Present: pfps, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK, JeremyCarroll, alanr, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro
18:29:13 [sandro]
Okay, MartinD, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.04.23/Minutes should be a good starting point.
18:29:29 [MartinD]
sandro, trackbot was not recognizing actions on users
18:29:36 [sandro]
sorry - dismissed DCC chat accidentally.
18:30:01 [MartinD]
sandro, trackbot was not recognizing actions on users
18:30:02 [sandro]
I'm not surprised. Um, e-mail Alan and ask what he wants done about that...?
18:30:12 [MartinD]
so, there might be some mess in recording actions
18:30:17 [sandro]
or e-mail team-owl-chairs@w3.org rather
18:30:30 [sandro]
or I can. never mind -- I'll do it.
18:31:16 [MartinD]
ok, thanks... I will look at the minutes later today