IRC log of owl on 2008-04-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:11 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #owl

16:47:11 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/23-owl-irc

16:47:28 [MartinD]

Zakim, this will be OWLWG

16:47:28 [Zakim]

ok, MartinD; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 47 minutes ago

16:47:49 [MartinD]

ScribeNick: MartinD

16:52:13 [pfps]

pfps has joined #owl

16:53:59 [Zakim]

SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started

16:54:06 [Zakim]

+Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:54:16 [Zakim]

-Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:54:17 [Zakim]

SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended

16:54:17 [Zakim]

Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:54:59 [Zakim]

SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started

16:55:06 [Zakim]

+Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:56:07 [pfps]

zakim, this will be owlwg

16:56:07 [Zakim]

ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 56 minutes ago

16:56:10 [msmith]

msmith has joined #owl

16:56:20 [pfps]

RRSAgent, make records public

16:56:34 [pfps]

I got kicked off a minute ago, so try again

16:56:55 [bmotik]

bmotik has joined #owl

16:58:09 [pfps]

not since I turned off my speakers :-)

16:58:18 [Rinke]

zakim, who is here

16:58:18 [Zakim]

Rinke, you need to end that query with '?'

16:58:22 [Rinke]

zakim, who is here?

16:58:22 [Zakim]

I notice SW_OWL()12:00PM has restarted

16:58:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P3, +90827aaaa, ??P6

16:58:24 [Zakim]

On IRC I see bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro

16:58:46 [MartinD]

Zakim, 908 is me

16:58:47 [Zakim]

sorry, MartinD, I do not recognize a party named '908'

16:58:47 [bmotik]

Zakim, ??P6 is me

16:58:47 [Zakim]

+bmotik; got it

16:58:51 [bijan]

bijan has joined #owl

16:58:52 [bmotik]

Zakim, mute me

16:58:52 [Zakim]

bmotik should now be muted

16:58:55 [MartinD]

Zakim, aaaa is me

16:58:56 [Zakim]

+MartinD; got it

16:59:08 [Rinke]

Zakim, who is here?

16:59:08 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P3, MartinD, bmotik (muted)

16:59:10 [Zakim]

On IRC I see bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro

16:59:13 [Rinke]

Zakim, ??P3 is me

16:59:13 [Zakim]

+Rinke; got it

16:59:16 [Rinke]

zakim, mute me

16:59:16 [Zakim]

Rinke should now be muted

16:59:17 [bijan]

bijan has joined #owl

16:59:27 [alanr]

alanr has joined #owl

16:59:28 [MartinD]

zakimm, mute me

16:59:34 [MartinD]

zakim, mute me

16:59:34 [Zakim]

MartinD should now be muted

16:59:36 [uli]

uli has joined #owl

17:00:07 [Zakim]

+??P30

17:00:16 [Zakim]

+??P35

17:00:16 [bijan]

zakim, ??p30 is me

17:00:17 [Zakim]

+bijan; got it

17:00:21 [diegoc]

diegoc has joined #owl

17:00:22 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

17:00:22 [Zakim]

bijan should now be muted

17:00:28 [uli]

zakim, ??P35 is me

17:00:28 [Zakim]

+uli; got it

17:00:32 [IanH]

IanH has joined #owl

17:00:35 [uli]

zakim, mute me

17:00:35 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

17:00:41 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.253.aabb

17:01:23 [Zakim]

+diegoc

17:01:41 [MarkusK]

MarkusK has joined #owl

17:01:45 [Zakim]

+IanH

17:01:53 [Zakim]

+msmith

17:02:06 [Zakim]

+Evan_Wallace

17:02:08 [baojie]

baojie has joined #owl

17:02:10 [alanr]

markus, will you be able to scribe until end of call?

17:02:12 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

17:02:45 [jeremy_]

jeremy_ has joined #owl

17:02:49 [sandro]

IanH, I'm going to be a bit late to the meeting, sorry.

17:02:51 [bijan]

I request tha nary-data predicates be put on the General Discussions list

17:03:08 [bijan]

There is quite a worked out proposal: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_proposal

17:03:12 [MartinD]

Topic: Roll call

17:03:17 [ewallace]

Agenda amendments: I have change the deadline for action 112 so this need not be discussed

17:03:26 [alanr]

noted

17:03:45 [bijan]

And there is an issue: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/5

17:03:46 [bijan]

Great

17:03:50 [MartinD]

zakim, unmute me

17:03:50 [Zakim]

MartinD should no longer be muted

17:04:10 [Zakim]

+??P13

17:04:33 [alanr]

no

17:04:40 [MarkusK]

alanr, I think so -- is there another scribe before me or am I the only one?

17:04:40 [alanr]

zakim, who is here?

17:04:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli (muted), +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace,

17:04:45 [Zakim]

... MarkusK, jeremy_

17:04:49 [Zakim]

On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, diegoc, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro

17:05:01 [MartinD]

I am scribing.... no probs... things setup

17:05:23 [alanr]

zakim, who is here?

17:05:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli (muted), +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace,

17:05:27 [Zakim]

... MarkusK, JeremyCarroll

17:05:28 [MartinD]

alanr: we're starting

17:05:29 [Zakim]

On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, diegoc, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro

17:05:44 [alanr]

zakim,aabb is me

17:05:44 [Zakim]

+alanr; got it

17:06:00 [MartinD]

Topic: Agenda amendments

17:06:19 [MartinD]

Alanr: F2F - we're settling 18-29 July at MIT

17:06:28 [alanr]

28-29

17:06:31 [Zakim]

+ +1.518.276.aacc

17:06:34 [MartinD]

a/18/28

17:06:43 [baojie]

Zakim, aacc is baojie

17:06:43 [Zakim]

+baojie; got it

17:06:43 [alanr]

q?

17:07:01 [alanr]

zakim, who is talking

17:07:02 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is talking', alanr

17:07:14 [IanH]

Is it just me or has the line gone dead?

17:07:23 [JeremyCarroll]

Zakim, who is speaking?

17:07:23 [diegoc]

i hear just static

17:07:27 [alanr]

static

17:07:31 [IanH]

here too

17:07:36 [Zakim]

JeremyCarroll, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

17:07:40 [JeremyCarroll]

liar

17:07:49 [ewallace]

Sound like background noise

17:07:49 [alanr]

mutes baojie

17:07:56 [alanr]

zakim, mute baojie

17:07:56 [Zakim]

baojie should now be muted

17:08:00 [IanH]

better!

17:08:20 [MartinD]

Alanr: F2F - we're settling 28-29 July at MIT

17:08:35 [Rinke]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/41712/f2f3_dates/results

17:08:38 [MartinD]

alanr: topic on issues raised and how handled

17:09:01 [MartinD]

alanr: talking to IanH and things are going to change how issues are handled, raised,

17:09:14 [MartinD]

alanr: there was an email about first batch of issues to review

17:09:32 [MartinD]

Topic: Pending actions

17:10:13 [MartinD]

alanr: four points - update on RDF mapping (ISSUE 115)

17:10:32 [MartinD]

alanr: ISSUE 137, ISSUE 120, ISSUE 138

17:10:58 [alanr]

q?

17:11:01 [MartinD]

{Action|115} Update the RDF mapping with the accepted resolution of ISSUE-12 as per Peter's suggestion/Boris

17:11:13 [MartinD]

PROPOSED: the above issues to be considered done

17:11:26 [bmotik]

Zakim, unmute me

17:11:26 [Zakim]

bmotik should no longer be muted

17:11:27 [bijan]

My overdue acitions got siderailed by the easyclasskey discussion so remain undone

17:11:31 [bijan]

Should be done in a few days

17:11:37 [MartinD]

RESOLVED: SSUE 137, ISSUE 120, ISSUE 138, ISSUE 115 done

17:11:43 [MartinD]

Topic: Previous minutes

17:11:52 [pfps]

minimally acceptable - scribes should prefix their comments with their names

17:11:54 [MartinD]

alanr: are minutes acceptable?

17:12:13 [uli]

I will change my comments...

17:12:19 [MartinD]

PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (16 April)

17:12:37 [MartinD]

RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (16 April)

17:13:04 [MartinD]

Action 115 (Update the RDF mapping with the accepted resolution of ISSUE-12 as per Peter's suggestion/Boris)

17:13:06 [bmotik]

Zakim, mute me

17:13:06 [Zakim]

bmotik should now be muted

17:13:10 [bijan]

Scroll up in the log

17:13:25 [bijan]

bijan : My overdue acitions got siderailed by the easyclasskey discussion so remain undone

17:13:25 [bijan]

bijan : Should be done in a few days

17:13:29 [MartinD]

bijan: should be done in a few days

17:14:09 [MartinD]

Jeremy: to review doc on OWL compatibility with RIF - prob. mid May

17:14:31 [MartinD]

Topic: Raised Issues

17:14:37 [MartinD]

alanr: will be timed to 30 mins

17:15:02 [MartinD]

alanr: two raised issues 113 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/113)

17:15:28 [MartinD]

alanr: Open/Shut per Jeremy's note (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0198.html)

17:15:39 [JeremyCarroll]

issue-113: I am OK with this (but still -epsilon vote!)

17:15:40 [MartinD]

alanr: Issue 115 Icon needed for the WG pages.

17:15:42 [pfps]

i'll remind him

17:15:49 [MartinD]

alanr: minor change, not related to OWL

17:16:05 [MartinD]

alanr: Issue 120 Bug fixes to OWL 1 Semantics/Backwards compatibility

17:16:20 [MartinD]

alanr: considered editorial, already updated to reflect the issue

17:16:22 [alanr]

q?

17:16:25 [MartinD]

alanr: any further issues

17:16:36 [MartinD]

alanr: proposals to resolve issues

17:16:59 [MartinD]

alanr: {Issue|22} Syntactic sugar for a rule, per email

17:17:05 [MarkusK]

q+

17:17:11 [JeremyCarroll]

+1

17:17:11 [MartinD]

alanr: we suggest to close it with no action

17:17:16 [alanr]

q?

17:17:50 [JeremyCarroll]

q+ to mention possibility of postponement

17:17:55 [MartinD]

markusk: ok to close but there are some issues that may violate rules in the future, in theory problematic

17:17:58 [uli]

q+ to comment

17:18:05 [MartinD]

alanr: does this affect spec?

17:18:15 [alanr]

ack Markus

17:18:33 [MartinD]

markusk: if you want to express...

17:18:49 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:18:49 [Zakim]

JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention possibility of postponement

17:19:12 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

17:19:12 [Zakim]

uli should no longer be muted

17:19:12 [MartinD]

Jeremy: maybe we should postpone these issues to future WG-s?

17:19:21 [MartinD]

Uli: agrees to close this issue

17:19:33 [MartinD]

uli: maybe consider this in the next extensions to OWL

17:19:39 [MarkusK]

OK, I am fine with that.

17:19:51 [MartinD]

uli: might not be right point to talk about this, also late?

17:20:09 [MartinD]

alanr: non-structural constraints in the current work?

17:20:11 [alanr]

closed: "no action" sort of postponed.

17:20:23 [Rinke]

this email from Carsten just came in, http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.64.0804231914440.2230%2540frege.inf.tu-dresden.de

17:20:29 [JeremyCarroll]

q+ to further argue for postponement

17:20:29 [MartinD]

uli: some work can be done, but not really to change it all now

17:20:41 [MartinD]

alanr: nothing to do on this now...

17:20:52 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

17:20:52 [Zakim]

uli was not muted, uli

17:20:59 [ewallace]

me too

17:21:08 [uli]

zakim, mute me

17:21:08 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

17:21:28 [MartinD]

PROPOSED: Consider ISSUE 22 formally postponed

17:21:41 [MarkusK]

+1 to postpone

17:21:42 [uli]

+1

17:21:43 [JeremyCarroll]

+1

17:21:44 [alanr]

+1

17:21:46 [bmotik]

+1

17:21:46 [MartinD]

+1

17:21:47 [Rinke]

+1

17:21:47 [diegoc]

+1

17:21:48 [IanH]

+1

17:21:50 [msmith]

+1

17:21:52 [ewallace]

+1

17:21:56 [bijan]

+1

17:22:07 [MartinD]

RESOLVED: Consider ISSUE 22 formally postponed

17:22:25 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents,

17:22:48 [MartinD]

alanr: some errors spotted in OWL doc, since they are not worked on, we should close or postpone this

17:22:59 [pfps]

q+

17:23:04 [MartinD]

alanr: suggests postponing

17:23:04 [uli]

q-

17:23:08 [alanr]

ack uli

17:23:20 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:23:20 [Zakim]

JeremyCarroll, you wanted to further argue for postponement

17:23:24 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: probably postpone is better

17:23:25 [alanr]

ack pfps

17:23:44 [Elisa]

Elisa has joined #owl

17:23:50 [ewallace]

postpone is better

17:23:58 [bijan]

None of the erros show up in OWL2 yes?

17:24:01 [MartinD]

alanr: strawpoll on postpone vs. close

17:24:01 [JeremyCarroll]

I will vote 0 but don't wish to argue further

17:24:04 [ewallace]

postpone

17:24:06 [bmotik]

Close

17:24:06 [pfps]

close

17:24:08 [JeremyCarroll]

0 (neither postpone nor close)

17:24:11 [Rinke]

close, I guess

17:24:13 [alanr]

0

17:24:14 [IanH]

close

17:24:14 [uli]

close

17:24:16 [diegoc]

0

17:24:18 [baojie]

0

17:24:19 [MartinD]

0

17:24:23 [bijan]

Close

17:24:25 [msmith]

clsoe

17:24:30 [MartinD]

alanr: let's close it then

17:24:39 [MartinD]

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE 57

17:24:42 [JeremyCarroll]

0

17:24:45 [ewallace]

0

17:24:58 [Zakim]

+Elisa_Kendall

17:24:59 [JeremyCarroll]

as moot

17:25:21 [JeremyCarroll]

0

17:25:21 [bmotik]

+1

17:25:23 [alanr]

+1

17:25:23 [ewallace]

0

17:25:25 [pfps]

+1 to close

17:25:32 [uli]

+1

17:25:32 [IanH]

+1

17:25:34 [bijan]

+1 to the moot

17:25:35 [Rinke]

+1 close

17:25:37 [MartinD]

PROPOSED: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents closed as moot (not relevant)

17:25:41 [msmith]

+1 to close

17:25:44 [Elisa]

0

17:25:46 [diegoc]

+1

17:25:49 [MarkusK]

+1

17:25:57 [MartinD]

RESOLVED: Issue 57 Errata in OWL 1.0 documents closed as moot (not relevant)

17:26:09 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 106 OWL 2 namespace per proposal

17:26:20 [bmotik]

q+

17:26:27 [bmotik]

Zakim, unmute me

17:26:27 [Zakim]

bmotik should no longer be muted

17:26:30 [alanr]

ack bmotik

17:26:35 [MartinD]

alanr: what about namespaces? we keep old one, so OWL2 has the same namespace as the old one

17:26:56 [MartinD]

bmotik: are we talking about RDF only or also about XML

17:27:01 [MartinD]

alanr: only about RDF

17:27:02 [bijan]

+super1

17:27:02 [bmotik]

Zakim, mute me

17:27:04 [Zakim]

bmotik should now be muted

17:27:39 [alanr]

PROPOSED Resolve Issue 57 by saying that new OWL 2 vocabulary goes in old OWL 1 namespace

17:27:42 [JeremyCarroll]

0 (there are differences of opinion in HP)

17:27:42 [bmotik]

+100

17:27:44 [pfps]

+1 to make owl2 be the same as owl :-)

17:27:46 [alanr]

+1

17:27:49 [ewallace]

0

17:27:52 [MartinD]

+1

17:27:53 [Rinke]

0

17:27:54 [baojie]

0

17:27:54 [IanH]

+1

17:27:57 [diegoc]

+1

17:27:59 [uli]

+1

17:28:00 [bijan]

+1

17:28:04 [Elisa]

0

17:28:11 [MarkusK]

+1

17:28:11 [alanr]

ACCEPTED Resolve Issue 57 by saying that new OWL 2 vocabulary goes in old OWL 1 namespace

17:28:28 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 63 Defining an RDFS compatible semantics

17:28:37 [MartinD]

alanr: not sure if to accept this as a real issue

17:28:40 [JeremyCarroll]

+1

17:28:45 [MartinD]

alanr: should we close it completed

17:29:02 [alanr]

PROPOSED Close Issue 63 as done.

17:29:04 [ewallace]

+1

17:29:05 [alanr]

q?

17:29:09 [alanr]

+1

17:29:10 [pfps]

+1 to agree that we're doing what we should

17:29:10 [Rinke]

+1

17:29:13 [bmotik]

+1

17:29:14 [MartinD]

0

17:29:15 [msmith]

+1 to close ISSUE-63

17:29:17 [MarkusK]

+1

17:29:17 [diegoc]

+1

17:29:19 [uli]

+1

17:29:20 [IanH]

+1

17:29:22 [Elisa]

+1

17:29:31 [baojie]

+1

17:29:34 [alanr]

RESOLVED Close Issue 63 as done.

17:29:35 [diegoc]

diegoc has left #owl

17:29:54 [ewallace]

s/ACCEPTED/RESOLVED

17:30:00 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue discussion

17:30:09 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 119 Russel paradox in OWL Full due to self restrictions.

17:30:26 [MartinD]

alanr: OWL full comprehension issue

17:30:39 [JeremyCarroll]

q+ to ask peter about solipism

17:30:47 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:30:47 [Zakim]

JeremyCarroll, you wanted to ask peter about solipism

17:31:05 [diegoc]

diegoc has joined #owl

17:31:12 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: to members of previous OWLWG, whether there is new evidence to reconsider comprehension principle?

17:31:18 [pfps]

q+

17:31:23 [alanr]

ack pfps

17:31:45 [MartinD]

pfps: relationship between DL and Full needs rethink

17:32:01 [MartinD]

pfps: if comprehension principle goes away

17:32:20 [pfps]

q+

17:32:30 [MartinD]

alanr: what do we lose if we go the wway Jeremy proposed

17:33:23 [alanr]

ack pfps

17:33:26 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: deleting all comprehension principles allows us to rethink all relations, practically that might not be valuable?

17:33:43 [MartinD]

pfps: one can do a patch to keep things the same,

17:33:59 [MartinD]

pfps: that might be adequate

17:34:03 [IanH]

q+

17:34:15 [alanr]

ack IanH

17:34:15 [JeremyCarroll]

Have I seen this patch?

17:34:17 [IanH]

zakim, unmute me

17:34:17 [Zakim]

IanH was not muted, IanH

17:34:30 [MartinD]

alanr: action on Peter or Ian?

17:34:51 [MartinD]

IanH: agrees with Peter, needs convincing that we should completely revise OWL Full semantics

17:35:10 [MartinD]

IanH: this might be close to "out of scope" w.r.t. our charter

17:35:35 [bijan]

I wouldn't mind a new owl full, whether we can agree on the new version is a different issue :)

17:35:37 [MartinD]

alanr: someone should coordinate, sheperd the patching process

17:35:40 [IanH]

OK

17:36:09 [alanr]

zakim, who is here?

17:36:11 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan (muted), uli, alanr, diegoc (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK,

17:36:14 [Zakim]

... JeremyCarroll, baojie (muted), Elisa_Kendall

17:36:16 [Zakim]

On IRC I see diegoc, Elisa, JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro

17:36:28 [MartinD]

ACTION: IanH to sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119)

17:36:28 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - IanH

17:36:49 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 97 Add GRDDL to OWL/XML Syntax

17:36:51 [JeremyCarroll]

q+ on 97

17:37:02 [bijan]

q+

17:37:08 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:37:14 [MartinD]

alanr: anyone willing to take this issue?

17:37:15 [alanr]

ack on

17:37:16 [JeremyCarroll]

q- on

17:37:20 [JeremyCarroll]

q- 97

17:37:34 [bijan]

zakim, unmute me

17:37:34 [Zakim]

bijan should no longer be muted

17:37:41 [alanr]

q?

17:37:45 [alanr]

ack bijan

17:37:47 [MartinD]

bijan: wants to say a thing on GRDDL

17:37:50 [IanH]

ACTION: IanH to sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119)

17:37:50 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - IanH

17:38:21 [JeremyCarroll]

I think we need the XSLT!

17:38:33 [IanH]

RSSAgent claims not to recognise me -- I will do it the old fashioned way!

17:38:40 [MartinD]

bijan: this seems to be almost editorial, depends on what level we are looking at this...

17:39:01 [MartinD]

bijan: there might be issue with going only for XSLT transformations

17:39:19 [JeremyCarroll]

That's a real difference of opinion

17:39:33 [Rinke]

Think I agree with bijan on this point, esp. since the syntax is still in flux

17:39:49 [JeremyCarroll]

q+ to respond to Bijan

17:39:59 [MartinD]

alanr: new information; why don't we ...

17:40:02 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:40:02 [Zakim]

JeremyCarroll, you wanted to respond to Bijan

17:40:15 [MartinD]

alanr: discuss it later when there are others like Ivan and Sandro

17:40:37 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: we may get into maintenance problem; can clearly state that text is normative

17:41:27 [MartinD]

bijan: with OWL API we already have pretty reliable implementation, no point in preferring one implementation or that it should be part of OWLWG deliverables

17:41:33 [ewallace]

OWL API relation to OWL2 spec?

17:41:47 [bijan]

OWL API tracks the OWL2 spec

17:42:05 [MartinD]

alanr: my concern was satisfied with GRDDL; the main thing now is an easy, compatible translation

17:42:29 [MartinD]

bijan: there was supposed to be spec and then possibly different implementations?

17:42:46 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: GRDDL addresses how to do transformation from XSLT 1

17:43:01 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: that was recommended

17:43:58 [JeremyCarroll]

That's cute!

17:44:02 [MartinD]

alanr: there is a trick, if you want to create a transformation into a language, create a trivial XSLT that replaces the output with the translation... can be done

17:44:06 [bijan]

As noted above, each GRDDL transformation specifies a transformation property, a function from XPath document nodes to RDF graphs. This function need not be total; it may have a domain smaller than all XML document nodes. For example, use of xsl:message with terminate="yes" may be used to signal that the input is outside the domain of the transformation.

17:44:25 [alanr]

q?

17:44:34 [bijan]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#txforms

17:44:34 [MartinD]

ACTION: alanr to explore whether a simple transformation via XSLT would work in this case

17:44:34 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr

17:44:46 [MartinD]

Topic: Other issues discussion

17:45:12 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 111 User intent signalling

17:45:17 [bijan]

Jeremy, I don't read the GRDDL spec as you do, afaict

17:45:35 [MartinD]

alanr: would be good to allow users to signal, flag that ontology should be interpreted as OWL1, etc.

17:45:49 [MartinD]

alanr: in the past MIME type was rejected

17:45:56 [alanr]

q?

17:45:57 [bmotik]

q+

17:46:01 [MartinD]

alanr: Sandro put an initial email, any comments?

17:46:01 [JeremyCarroll]

q+

17:46:02 [alanr]

ack bmotik

17:46:04 [bmotik]

Zakim, unmute me

17:46:04 [Zakim]

bmotik was not muted, bmotik

17:46:06 [IanH]

Sorry, but I have to leave now.

17:46:13 [Zakim]

-IanH

17:46:37 [MartinD]

bmotik: idea was good, we need to include in the doc a switch to use given OWL semantics

17:47:01 [MartinD]

bmotik: given RDF doc, we need to see under what OWL it is interpreted (DL, Full,...)

17:47:10 [alanr]

action: alanr to show trick for how to *generate* an xslt to create a grddl transform

17:47:10 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr

17:47:13 [MartinD]

bmotik: maybe we don't need a switch per profile

17:47:16 [bijan]

q+

17:47:20 [bmotik]

Zakim, mute me

17:47:20 [Zakim]

bmotik should now be muted

17:47:25 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:47:48 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: correction - MIME wasn't rejected in principle, just because there was no time

17:48:07 [MartinD]

alanr: from notes - this was not needed at the time

17:48:16 [Zakim]

+Sandro

17:48:20 [alanr]

q?

17:48:29 [bijan]

zakim, unmute me

17:48:29 [Zakim]

bijan was not muted, bijan

17:48:44 [MartinD]

bijan: one problem with MIME - tends not to work offline

17:48:50 [MartinD]

bijan: not robust enough

17:49:03 [sandro]

q?

17:49:12 [sandro]

ack bijan

17:49:15 [alanr]

q+ to ask about what to do about interaction between imports and conflicting user intent

17:49:33 [MartinD]

bijan: for profiles - one reason for including is that people may want to signal that a mixed ontology is interpreted in appropriate way (say DL)

17:49:54 [bmotik]

Agree with Bijan, but then we might use then a different switch

17:49:55 [MartinD]

bijan: not necessary to disambiguate semantics, but good to flag if users want to emphasize

17:50:03 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

17:50:03 [Zakim]

bijan should now be muted

17:50:04 [alanr]

ack alanr

17:50:05 [Zakim]

alanr, you wanted to ask about what to do about interaction between imports and conflicting user intent

17:50:27 [bijan]

importing file wins

17:50:28 [MartinD]

alanr: what happens when doing imports and there are different intents in diff files

17:50:39 [MartinD]

sandro: mentioned in email, but no good answer

17:50:56 [alanr]

q?

17:51:00 [alanr]

q+ alanr

17:51:13 [MartinD]

sandro: not sure anybody knows how to implement certain combinations = may need to ban certain combinations?

17:51:27 [JeremyCarroll]

q+

17:51:31 [alanr]

ack alanr

17:51:47 [alanr]

ack JeremyCarroll

17:51:51 [MartinD]

alanr: in solving this issue, we need to discuss and know what is the behavior

17:52:19 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: maybe we should have no semantics involved here, just graph (?)

17:52:26 [Zakim]

-MarkusK

17:52:51 [Zakim]

+??P11

17:52:53 [MartinD]

JeremyCarroll: to understand triples if we want to have just a graph, you can't use RDF semantics, as graph has no semantics

17:52:56 [bijan]

Ok, in case of incompatible profiles, then a warning to the user SHOULD be signaled and the user offered a choice of which semantics to use

17:53:19 [MartinD]

alanr: kind of like intended semantics RDF entailment

17:53:20 [bijan]

Rdf Abstract Syntax semantics, simple interpreation, rdf, rdfs...

17:53:22 [sandro]

q?

17:53:29 [bijan]

er...plus d entailment variants

17:53:57 [MartinD]

alanr: specific suggestions from bijan, sandro, jeremy? discuss on email and come back with revised proposal

17:54:08 [sandro]

Alan: Bijan, Jeremy, Sandro, Boris --- you four discuss over e-mail and bring back a revised proposal.

17:54:17 [bmotik]

Please no, I'm swamped

17:54:20 [bijan]

I can reply to sandro's email

17:54:28 [JeremyCarroll]

[I am leaving early, sorry. On EasyKeys it would be good to have some Full semantics]

17:54:47 [MartinD]

alanr: out of time...

17:54:47 [sandro]

Alan: okay - let's let this lie for a few weeks.

17:55:19 [Zakim]

-JeremyCarroll

17:55:20 [MartinD]

Topic: General discussion

17:55:28 [MartinD]

Topic: Easy keys

17:55:32 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

17:55:32 [Zakim]

uli was not muted, uli

17:55:34 [ewallace]

top property discussion postponed?

17:55:38 [bijan]

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys

17:55:39 [alanr]

yes

17:55:46 [alanr]

unless we have remaining time today

17:55:57 [bijan]

Rdf mapping: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys#RDF_Mapping

17:56:02 [MartinD]

uli: in the easy keys proposals we described a few things more explicit

17:56:29 [MartinD]

uli: semantics more explicit, explained why "easy", why this would cause problems

17:56:34 [alanr]

q?

17:56:34 [bmotik]

Zakim, unmute te

17:56:35 [Zakim]

sorry, bmotik, I do not know which phone connection belongs to te

17:56:40 [bmotik]

Zakim , unmute me

17:56:46 [bijan]

q+

17:56:51 [alanr]

ack bijan

17:56:54 [bijan]

zakim, unmute me

17:56:54 [Zakim]

bijan was not muted, bijan

17:56:56 [bmotik]

Zakim, unmute me

17:56:56 [Zakim]

bmotik should no longer be muted

17:57:05 [bmotik]

Sorry, I had problems unmuting me

17:57:14 [uli]

zakim, mute me

17:57:14 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

17:57:38 [MartinD]

bijan: there is one raised, open issue - depends on what we do about key and b-nodes (?)... if variables can't do with easy keys

17:57:53 [alanr]

q?

17:58:13 [MartinD]

alanr: can you collect situations we are trying to accomplish here?

17:58:21 [alanr]

q?

17:58:26 [MartinD]

bijan: will be included on easy keys page

17:58:39 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

17:58:39 [Zakim]

bijan should now be muted

17:58:50 [alanr]

q?

17:58:53 [MartinD]

bmotik: spoke to uli and got explanations, so no more reservations left

17:59:05 [bmotik]

Zakim, mute me

17:59:05 [Zakim]

bmotik should now be muted

17:59:17 [bijan]

q+

17:59:21 [MartinD]

alanr: we don't have achille and zhe - implementers and their position on this

17:59:26 [alanr]

ack bijan

18:00:23 [MartinD]

bijan: the intent of easy keys was to make it easy for implementation; unless they start messing with datatypes

18:00:35 [ewallace]

What is meant by mucking around with datatypes?

18:00:37 [MartinD]

bijan: should work with anything that follows datalog rules

18:01:00 [MartinD]

alanr: bijan can you add a note about the case you worry about or explain it

18:01:41 [MartinD]

bijan: when you thing about dl-safe rules and datalog, you may not have some things (e.g. negation) in the right place, maybe boris, uli can tell more

18:01:46 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

18:01:46 [Zakim]

uli should no longer be muted

18:02:12 [ewallace]

OK Thanks, looking at that now

18:02:15 [MartinD]

bijan: if you have finite datatypes you may have more work to do

18:02:26 [uli]

zakim, mute me

18:02:26 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

18:02:29 [bijan]

Jeremy left, didn't he?

18:02:34 [MartinD]

alanr: Jeremy is also among implementers - any issues?

18:02:41 [alanr]

zakime, who is here?

18:02:47 [alanr]

zakim, who is here?

18:02:47 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Rinke (muted), MartinD, bmotik (muted), bijan, uli (muted), alanr, diegoc (muted), msmith, Evan_Wallace, baojie (muted), Elisa_Kendall,

18:02:50 [Zakim]

... Sandro, MarkusK

18:02:52 [Zakim]

On IRC I see diegoc, Elisa, JeremyCarroll, baojie, MarkusK, IanH, uli, alanr, bijan, bmotik, msmith, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, MartinD, ewallace, trackbot-ng, sandro

18:02:52 [bijan]

JeremyCarroll : [I am leaving early, sorry. On EasyKeys it wo

18:02:52 [bijan]

Zakim : -JeremyCarroll

18:02:53 [ewallace]

Jeremy left

18:03:23 [MartinD]

alanr: affirmative responses from three implementers so that we can report on this

18:03:28 [pfps]

q+

18:03:31 [MartinD]

alanr: action needed

18:03:33 [alanr]

ack pfps

18:03:34 [msmith]

3 /other/ implementers. bmotik and I both implement reasoners

18:03:50 [bijan]

And me, Ian, and Peter

18:04:22 [bijan]

(at least)

18:04:24 [MartinD]

... getting response from all implementers on the WG

18:04:25 [alanr]

action: alan will get responses from Achille,Zhe, Jeremy as implementors - review of Easy Keys proposal

18:04:25 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-140 - Will get responses from Achille,Zhe, Jeremy as implementors - review of Easy Keys proposal [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-30].

18:04:50 [MartinD]

alanr: other comments on easy keys or a straw poll?

18:05:00 [MartinD]

alanr: should we go ahead and have this feature added?

18:05:16 [MartinD]

alanr: strawpoll - are we ready to add this to spec

18:05:18 [pfps]

+1 to proceed on EasyKeys

18:05:19 [sandro]

NONBINDING-PROPOSED: add easykeys to spec

18:05:22 [baojie]

+1

18:05:22 [sandro]

+1

18:05:23 [msmith]

+1 to easy keys, they will be added to Pellet

18:05:23 [MartinD]

+1

18:05:24 [bijan]

+1 to adding to spec

18:05:25 [uli]

+1

18:05:26 [MarkusK]

+1

18:05:26 [alanr]

+1

18:05:27 [Rinke]

+1

18:05:27 [diegoc]

+1

18:05:34 [Elisa]

+1

18:05:38 [ewallace]

+1 to adding EasyKeys with usual qualifications

18:05:42 [bijan]

(and fact++)

18:06:03 [MartinD]

alanr: looks good, good work from bijan and uli to have proposal in such a good shape

18:06:14 [MartinD]

alanr: back to issue l ist

18:06:25 [MartinD]

alanr: more discussion on any previous issues

18:06:46 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 71 Data ranges for literals with Language

18:06:52 [bijan]

q+

18:07:03 [alanr]

ack Bijan

18:07:09 [MartinD]

alanr: Jeremy not here, anybody has opinions on this - should we be handling XML literals as well?

18:07:13 [pfps]

-1 on XML literals

18:07:34 [pfps]

q+ to suggest a facet for this purpose

18:07:41 [alanr]

q+ to ask question about XML Literals

18:07:43 [MartinD]

bijan: some variant on extending datatype language is fine, to do it somehow - may be useful

18:08:07 [alanr]

q- alanr

18:08:12 [alanr]

Bijan asked my question

18:08:28 [alanr]

also -1 to XML literals

18:08:36 [MartinD]

bijan: XML literals are a bit dodgy - there is some form of inheritance... we should not support this, we don't support many other XML subtyping, because they are a hard problem

18:08:38 [pfps]

.. and not well-formed

18:08:43 [alanr]

ack pfps

18:08:43 [Zakim]

pfps, you wanted to suggest a facet for this purpose

18:08:45 [MartinD]

bijan: got for a middle ground

18:08:54 [bijan]

+1 to a facet

18:08:58 [MartinD]

pfps: suggests facets for this purpose

18:09:17 [bmotik]

+1 to adding facets

18:09:17 [MartinD]

pfps: you don't to impose syntax...

18:09:19 [bijan]

A facet would be an easy add

18:09:36 [MartinD]

alanr: will you write something for spec how this may look

18:09:48 [MartinD]

pfps: response sent to jeremy, may contain enough info

18:09:49 [bijan]

How about an action to add this to the spec?

18:10:07 [MartinD]

alanr: jeremy was suggesting wildcarding? is that covered?

18:10:12 [bijan]

q+

18:10:15 [alanr]

en-*

18:10:18 [bijan]

ack bijan

18:10:20 [alanr]

ack bijan

18:10:28 [MartinD]

alanr: e.g. EN* not necessarily, EN-GB EN-US

18:11:02 [MartinD]

bijan: if we want this from scratch, we can represent this using schema - string + values (facets can go into string part)

18:11:31 [MartinD]

bijan: this is not a fundamentally difficult thing, just needs to be in a neat way

18:11:57 [alanr]

q?

18:11:58 [MartinD]

bijan: we should be able to search, cluster strings and in principle it's about having pattern facets

18:12:14 [msmith]

pattern facets are in the spec

18:12:17 [MartinD]

alanr: what is the status of this right now?

18:12:20 [bijan]

xsd:string, xsd:normalizedString, xsd:anyURI,

18:12:20 [bijan]

xsd:token, xsd:language, xsd:NMTOKEN,

18:12:20 [bijan]

xsd:Name, xsd:NCName,

18:12:20 [bijan]

xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary

18:12:20 [bijan]

length, minLength, maxLength, pattern

18:12:30 [bijan]

Table 1

18:12:56 [bijan]

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Datatype_Restrictions

18:12:59 [MartinD]

alanr: will it be easier to use patterns? bijan, will spec ideas?

18:12:59 [bijan]

am I offering...

18:13:05 [bijan]

I guess

18:13:29 [alanr]

q?

18:13:31 [MartinD]

alanr: other comments?

18:13:53 [bijan]

ACTION: Work out syntax for langed literals

18:13:53 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Work

18:13:54 [MartinD]

Topic: Issue 112 Top property

18:14:09 [bijan]

ACTION on bijan to work out syntax for langed literals

18:14:14 [MarkusK]

q+

18:14:19 [MartinD]

alanr: someone who understands "top" property to update us

18:14:20 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

18:14:20 [Zakim]

uli should no longer be muted

18:14:48 [MarkusK]

q-

18:14:52 [MartinD]

uli: we were unsure how to call it, but for some reason we needed "bottom" role, there was some discussion on universality

18:14:59 [MarkusK]

+1 to uli's summary

18:15:05 [MartinD]

uli: reasoners can get away with faking this

18:15:09 [uli]

zakim, mute me

18:15:09 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

18:15:47 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

18:15:47 [Zakim]

uli should no longer be muted

18:16:01 [MartinD]

alanr: bottom role - when debugging ontologies, one thing that came with unsatisfiable roles was that it could not have any values - could this be equivalent to a bottom role (e.g. maxCard 0)

18:16:19 [MartinD]

uli: might be a way to fake implementing bottom properties

18:16:30 [MartinD]

uli: maybe this needs syntactic sugar to name this

18:16:42 [MartinD]

alanr: would this add burden to reasoners?

18:16:43 [ewallace]

yes please have name for both topProperty and bottomProperty if supported

18:16:57 [MartinD]

uli: not really, reasoners can handle this

18:17:05 [MartinD]

alanr: what the name should be

18:17:19 [MartinD]

alanr: there are few possibilities, anybody?

18:17:30 [MartinD]

uli: some in the email posted recently...

18:17:31 [ewallace]

The issue lists: "universalProperty", "thingProperty", "relatesTo", "topProperty", "universal"

18:17:35 [alanr]

toAll, toNone

18:17:47 [uli]

zakim, mute me

18:17:47 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

18:17:48 [pfps]

goodnight to All

18:18:04 [pfps]

goodnight "toAll"

18:18:11 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

18:18:11 [Zakim]

uli should no longer be muted

18:18:16 [alanr]

relatesTo, doesNotRelateTo

18:18:26 [MartinD]

uli: should mirror owl:thing

18:18:33 [MarkusK]

+1 to uli "relates to" implies a meaning

18:18:40 [MartinD]

uli: relatesTo implies meaning which it doesn't really have

18:18:41 [bijan]

owl:TopProperty and owl:BottomProperty

18:18:47 [uli]

+1 to bijan

18:18:50 [MarkusK]

+1

18:18:56 [uli]

zakim, mute me

18:18:56 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

18:18:59 [pfps]

let's do Dr Seuss (Thing and Thing2)

18:19:07 [bijan]

owl:BijanProperty and owl:JermeyProperty

18:19:19 [uli]

zakim, unmute me

18:19:19 [Zakim]

uli should no longer be muted

18:19:27 [MartinD]

alanr: the usual way to read properties is like a sentence - A topproperty B... sounds like relation between them

18:19:56 [MartinD]

uli: topProperty should related every individual with every other individual

18:20:07 [bijan]

owl:isRelatedVacuouslyTo

18:20:13 [MartinD]

uli: "relatesTo" may be too ambiguous

18:20:14 [MarkusK]

+1 to uli again: "topProperty" implies no *relevant* relation whatsoever

18:20:17 [pfps]

there is the expectation that "relates to" has some domain implication

18:20:18 [bijan]

owl:isNotRelatedAtAllNyahNyeahTo

18:20:34 [uli]

zakim, mute me

18:20:34 [Zakim]

uli should now be muted

18:20:46 [MartinD]

alanr: no problems with this

18:20:56 [MartinD]

alanr: strawpoll on adding top and bottom roles to OWL 2

18:21:04 [ewallace]

+1 to add top and bottom roles to OWL2

18:21:04 [sandro]

NONBINDING-PROPOSED: add "top" and "bottom" by some name, to OWL 2 ?

18:21:09 [MarkusK]

+1

18:21:11 [Rinke]

+1 to add them

18:21:14 [bijan]

+1

18:21:15 [msmith]

+1 to adding top and bottom roles

18:21:17 [alanr]

+1

18:21:17 [MartinD]

+1

18:21:26 [uli]

+1

18:21:28 [sandro]

+0 no clueif it's really useful

18:21:29 [pfps]

+top

18:21:57 [MartinD]

alanr: we have good sentiment that this is worth adding, let's discuss the actual names on email

18:22:16 [MartinD]

alanr: one last thing

18:22:43 [pfps]

separate

18:22:43 [MartinD]

alanr: where we are going on whether there should be 1 or 2 OWL semantics documents...

18:22:50 [MartinD]

alanr: should there be one or separate

18:23:14 [uli]

hurray!

18:23:15 [MartinD]

alanr: adjourned

18:23:19 [ewallace]

5 minutes early!

18:23:20 [uli]

bye!

18:23:21 [Elisa]

bye

18:23:22 [Zakim]

-Sandro

18:23:22 [MarkusK]

bye

18:23:23 [Zakim]

-baojie

18:23:23 [Zakim]

-bmotik

18:23:24 [Zakim]

-Evan_Wallace

18:23:24 [Zakim]

-alanr

18:23:25 [Rinke]

thanks, bye

18:23:25 [Zakim]

-msmith

18:23:26 [Zakim]

-MarkusK

18:23:28 [Zakim]

-uli

18:23:28 [diegoc]

bye

18:23:30 [Zakim]

-diegoc

18:23:34 [Zakim]

-bijan

18:23:35 [Zakim]

-Rinke

18:23:37 [Zakim]

-Elisa_Kendall

18:23:43 [Zakim]

-MartinD

18:24:10 [alanr]

sandro, you got the notes?

18:24:17 [alanr]

minutes?

18:24:28 [MartinD]

how to generate them

18:24:30 [MartinD]

>

18:24:32 [MartinD]

?

18:24:42 [alanr]

sandro usuall handles

18:24:50 [alanr]

rrsagent, draft minutes

18:24:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/23-owl-minutes.html alanr

18:24:58 [alanr]

rrsagent, make log public

18:25:17 [sandro]

MartinD, hold on 5 minutes?

18:25:25 [MartinD]

ee, sure

18:26:55 [sandro]

Chair: Alan

18:27:02 [sandro]

Zakim, list attendees

18:27:02 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, +90827aaaa, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK,

18:27:05 [Zakim]

... JeremyCarroll, alanr, +1.518.276.aacc, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro

18:27:10 [Zakim]

-Peter_Patel-Schneider

18:27:11 [Zakim]

SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended

18:27:12 [Zakim]

Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, +90827aaaa, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, +1.617.253.aabb, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK, JeremyCarroll, alanr,

18:27:14 [Zakim]

... +1.518.276.aacc, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro

18:27:41 [sandro]

Present: pfps, bmotik, MartinD, Rinke, bijan, uli, diegoc, IanH, msmith, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK, JeremyCarroll, alanr, baojie, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro

18:29:13 [sandro]

Okay, MartinD, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.04.23/Minutes should be a good starting point.

18:29:29 [MartinD]

sandro, trackbot was not recognizing actions on users

18:29:36 [sandro]

sorry - dismissed DCC chat accidentally.

18:30:01 [MartinD]

sandro, trackbot was not recognizing actions on users

18:30:02 [sandro]

I'm not surprised. Um, e-mail Alan and ask what he wants done about that...?

18:30:12 [MartinD]

so, there might be some mess in recording actions

18:30:17 [sandro]

or e-mail team-owl-chairs@w3.org rather

18:30:30 [sandro]

or I can. never mind -- I'll do it.

18:31:16 [MartinD]

ok, thanks... I will look at the minutes later today