17:19:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:19:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-irc
17:19:31 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
17:19:42 <AllanJ> zakim, this will be wai-u
17:19:42 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, AllanJ
17:19:53 <AllanJ> zakim, this will be wai
17:19:53 <Zakim> "wai" matches WAI_EOWG(UMTF)2:00PM, and WAI_UAWG()1:00PM, AllanJ
17:20:17 <AllanJ> zakim, this will be wai_u
17:20:17 <Zakim> ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 20 minutes ago
17:39:57 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:46:06 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
17:50:38 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:54:01 <Jan> Scribe: Jan
17:55:00 <Jan> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0048.html
17:55:30 <Jan> Meeting: WAI UA
17:55:38 <Jan> Chair: Jim Allan
17:56:43 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:56:44 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:57:07 <Jan> zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord
17:57:07 <Zakim> +KFord; got it
17:57:46 <Zakim> +AllanJ
17:57:48 <Zakim> -AllanJ
17:57:48 <Zakim> +AllanJ
17:57:52 <KFord> This is just an FYI that Marc from IE will be joinging us today but he will be a couple minutes late.  He's here to talk about the ARIA document and represents us in PF.
17:58:27 <Zakim> +??P8
17:58:44 <Jan> zakim, ??P8 is really Jan
17:58:44 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
18:00:30 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #ua
18:00:34 <aaronlev> what's the passcode?
18:00:52 <KFord> 82941#
18:01:34 <Zakim> +Cantor
18:02:02 <aaronlev> i got invalid passcode
18:02:23 <Zakim> +Aaron_Leventhal
18:02:28 <aaronlev> now it works
18:02:37 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
18:04:02 <oedipus_laptop> oedipus_laptop has joined #ua
18:06:54 <Alan> Alan has joined #ua
18:07:16 <Alan> ?
18:07:18 <KFord> Welcome.
18:07:23 <Alan> Thanks
18:07:42 <Jan> Topic: 1. Charter review
18:07:53 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html 
18:08:05 <Jan> JA: Says what we are going to do for a couple years
18:08:14 <Jan> JA: Which will mostly be UAAG2
18:08:30 <Jan> KF: Question about success criteria....
18:08:51 <Jan> KF: Success criteria don't include testing materials...should they?
18:09:12 <Jan> JA: Don't know
18:09:19 <Jan> JR: Sure let's add it
18:09:29 <Jan> KF: Other than that it looks ok?
18:10:09 <Jan> JA: OK
18:12:25 <oedipus_laptop> what about a UA Support For... type document which is maintained to document conformance / support?
18:12:59 <Jan> JR: I was following WCAG's kead on how to fill in charter
18:13:20 <oedipus_laptop> yes JR
18:13:34 <Jan> KF: So an implementation summary?
18:13:44 <Jan> KF: How all browsers have done
18:13:49 <oedipus_laptop> yes, 1.0 does, but it hasn't been updated since 2003 - i have an action item to update it
18:14:08 <Jan> JA: Right and that's part of the CR process - Implementation report
18:14:21 <KFord> I'd be willing to help with this update, at least for IE.
18:15:30 <Jan> JR: Sometimes there is a lack of manpower to do a wide effort at conformance testing
18:15:42 <Jan> JA: OK we can focus a bit more on that after we get to Rec
18:16:07 <Jan> AL: Charter not a lot of detail
18:16:13 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/temp/w3c/test/until-user-agent-clauses.html
18:16:26 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/temp/w3c/test/WAI-UA-Support_2007.html
18:16:42 <Jan> AL: Felt requirements document is more useful (http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-UAAG20-requirements-20071031/)
18:16:59 <Jan> AL: I'd be willing to provide feedback on the Req document
18:17:10 <Jan> JAL Good! We'd like feedback!
18:17:20 <Jan> JA: Anything else?
18:17:25 <Jan> AC: Mission...
18:18:06 <Jan> AC: Should Mission also include statement that support documents will be created to the guideline.
18:18:28 <Jan> JA: Right but maybe that's just duplicating too much.
18:18:49 <Jan> AC: Interesting how repetitive the document is
18:19:28 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support
18:20:13 <Jan> JR: These charters are very high level
18:20:58 <oedipus_laptop> q+ to ask that Access Module issues be added to agenda
18:21:44 <Jan> JA: We'll vote next week...then we need to go through Judy
18:21:47 <oedipus_laptop> ack me
18:21:47 <Zakim> oedipus_laptop, you wanted to ask that Access Module issues be added to agenda
18:23:17 <Jan> GR: Acces module is important piece - is it ok if cross posts coninue?
18:23:24 <Jan> JA: Yes cross posts ok
18:23:31 <KFord> Marc is on his way to my office.
18:23:49 <oedipus_laptop> must activate be boolean? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0175.html
18:24:16 <oedipus_laptop> redefining keys and user control cascade: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0176.html
18:24:28 <Jan> 2. Discuss/review ARIA UA Implementors Guide
18:24:32 <oedipus_laptop> (both XHTML Access Module Issues)
18:24:48 <Jan> AL: Introduces self...
18:25:07 <Jan> AL: Works on Firefox, WAI-PF, ARIA
18:25:25 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria
18:25:33 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-roadmap
18:25:37 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer
18:25:41 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices
18:25:52 <Jan> Marc Sibley Arrives
18:26:11 <Jan> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide
18:26:33 <Jan> MS: Introduces self, works on IE and ARIA with WAI-PF
18:26:55 <Jan> MS: So has been working with Simon and AL on this best practices guide
18:27:06 <Jan> JA: Would like to throw it open
18:27:21 <Jan> AL: My question is UA working group...
18:27:32 <oedipus_laptop> platform specifics
18:27:41 <Jan> AL: How deep is UA going to get into platform specifics
18:27:42 <oedipus_laptop> thought we were platform agnostic
18:27:55 <Jan> JA: In the past, not deep....
18:28:01 <oedipus_laptop> spec should be platform agnostic, techniques were to address
18:28:10 <Jan> JA: Gave some examples, but pretty agnostic
18:28:20 <Zakim> +Earl_Johnson
18:28:30 <oedipus_laptop> s/techniques were/techniques where
18:28:37 <Jan> AL: Right...from talking to other browser vendors...but majority of our work is platform specific....
18:28:55 <Jan> AL: WHat we really need is help coordinating between platforms
18:29:12 <Jan> KF: I don't see that in Guidelines doc it's in tech guide
18:29:19 <Jan> AL: Don't care about names of documents
18:29:29 <Jan> AL: Just care about practical
18:29:54 <Jan> KF: But our first mission on UA is to be agnostic...in general this is what browser needs to do
18:30:00 <oedipus_laptop> first, do no harm...
18:30:09 <Jan> KF: These are not UA reqs on platform A
18:30:29 <Jan> AL: OK if not you, then say that and someone else can do it
18:30:49 <Jan> AL: Should I be doing it...implementors guide for ARIA...
18:30:54 <oedipus_laptop> q+
18:31:05 <Jan> AL: This is the kind of thing HTML should have done....
18:31:49 <Jan> GR: I think the UAWG is trying to work directly with other working groups eg HTML5....
18:32:07 <Jan> GR: e.g. on the User Agent guidance from HTML45
18:32:10 <Jan> GR: e.g. on the User Agent guidance from HTML5
18:32:28 <Jan> GR: So we are giving feedback back to others
18:32:56 <Jan> AL: So ARIA implementors guide....not really best practices
18:33:03 <Jan> GR: Right that's what developers need
18:33:20 <Jan> AL: Then I'm told go to UA group who should be writing this
18:33:37 <Jan> AL: Then WAI-UA responds that's not where are bread is buttered
18:33:52 <Jan> GR: We want to work with ARIA best practices...
18:34:10 <Jan> GR: See ARIA as standard W3C way of feeding in to APIs...
18:34:20 <Jan> GR: THen they can look up the mapping
18:34:28 <Jan> AL: Where do they look them up?
18:34:46 <Jan> GR: In appendices of ARIA Best Practices doc
18:35:12 <Jan> AL: Ok but doesn't map to the platform specifics
18:35:36 <Jan> AL: OK it's developed....too big for best practices, not for authors
18:35:46 <Jan> AL: Do you see my problem?
18:36:08 <Jan> MS: OK so you see these don't fit in Web developers doc...
18:36:11 <oedipus_laptop> q-
18:36:15 <Jan> MS: My opinion...
18:36:43 <Jan> MS: I think as groups like HTML start to develop specs, must be a best practices implemention guide...
18:37:03 <Jan> MS: I think HTML5 guide should be very developer-centric
18:37:22 <Jan> MS: I don't think UA could do implementation guides for all of the formats
18:37:45 <Jan> MS: UA is more consultants to all the different groups...but they need to do theri own
18:37:59 <oedipus_laptop> aria to msaa mappings: (based on moz dev) http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_MSAA
18:38:20 <Jan> MS: Since no one else doing ARIA, WAI should do it
18:38:36 <oedipus_laptop> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_IA2
18:38:52 <Jan> JA: This is very detailed stuff having to do with browsers...UAWG always stayed at high level...
18:38:57 <oedipus_laptop> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_ATK
18:39:11 <Jan> JA: Implementation "on top" specified (in the past).
18:39:24 <oedipus_laptop> aaronlev, do you want something more akin to http://a11y.org/a11y-dom-apis
18:39:31 <Jan> JA: The members of the working list aren't at this level
18:39:44 <Jan> AL: Good admission...I don't think you are ready for this
18:39:55 <Jan> JA: Well all the people left to work on ARIA over there
18:40:17 <oedipus_laptop> q+ to say UA members need to become more familiar with ARIA and its implementation STRATEGIES
18:40:17 <Jan> JA: Applies direcly but my concern is how many platforms are we going to do? Mobile other OS etc.
18:40:26 <Jan> JA: How far does it go?
18:40:30 <Jan> AL: Pretty far
18:40:42 <Jan> KF: Unless we expand charter
18:40:48 <Jan> KF: We don't cover this
18:41:02 <Jan> KF: ARIA hot now, but something else will be hot in 5 years
18:41:30 <Jan> KF: At that time they should be able to go to UAAG and found out what they need to be able to do with their format
18:41:55 <Jan> q+
18:42:07 <Jan> AL: Not just me, take Opera developers
18:42:16 <Jan> AL: CMN was on user agent before
18:42:47 <Jan> AL: But what they really need is list of all HTML attributes etc.
18:43:04 <Jan> AL: Since it's not there they'll reverse engineer FF etc.
18:43:06 <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/
18:43:14 <oedipus_laptop> (UAAG 1.0 test suite)
18:43:24 <Jan> AL: I look at top level stuff for a but, but then focus on low level
18:43:44 <Jan> AL: Maybe you could be more of a host for a community to work on things
18:44:08 <Jan> GR: Well the mappings should be standard and Access API dependent
18:44:26 <Jan> KF: So....not in charter now....
18:44:48 <oedipus_laptop> ARIA provide standard calls to accessibility APIs
18:44:49 <Jan> KF: But middle ground could be to facilitate coordination between browser developers
18:45:26 <Jan> AL: We put our wiki on ???...because it is neutral
18:46:01 <Jan> KF: So I'd be comfortable with facilitation....vs. we the user agent does the deep dive...
18:46:09 <Jan> KF: But needs charter changes
18:46:34 <Jan> AL: Ultimately I'd like to have software tools to know if things are done correctly or not
18:46:37 <oedipus_laptop> hyper-specific documents are a danger - people often implement off of a table or checklist rather than understanding the logic and structure, which leads to "dumb" implementations
18:47:21 <Jan> KF: But you the ARIA group would be responsible for the validators
18:48:27 <Jan> GR: My concern is that in hyper-specific documents...people implement of table but not necessarily ....understand concepts
18:48:59 <Jan> GR: ARIA is there in the middle and it is APIs to move to it
18:49:25 <Jan> AL: Access APIs are rich enough...but the APIs per platform are different
18:50:09 <Jan> MS: Totally agree .... each group developping technology needs to think end to end...
18:50:23 <Jan> MS: So this is why I think it should go along side the other ARIA docs
18:51:07 <Jan> GR: We are talking about access to DOM....so ARIA developers not responsible end to end....because APIs have role
18:51:28 <Jan> AL: We do want to try to ensure that the user agents do things the same on the various platforms
18:51:43 <Jan> GR: Violent agreement...
18:52:36 <AllanJ> JR: PF says it doesn't want to host. UA could host, non-rec track items. There is some presedent
18:52:53 <AllanJ> JR: Why UA space and not PF space
18:53:24 <Jan> GR: Are we then responsible?
18:53:42 <oedipus_laptop> oedipus_laptop has joined #ua
18:53:47 <Jan> GR: Is this stuff formally coming out of ARIA best practices
18:53:51 <Jan> AL: Yes
18:54:25 <Jan> MS: Fine with UA, but as we make changes to ARIA....will change ARIA implementation guide
18:54:45 <oedipus_laptop> q} to say that aria is the abstract the DHTML style guide is the where the abstract meets hardware
18:54:53 <Jan> AL: So...accessibility needs to be living breathing documents
18:55:14 <Jan> AL: Take live regions for example, we'lll learn a lot
18:55:48 <Jan> GR: Right so PF defines abstract but let's DHTML style guide to define details
18:56:02 <Jan> KF: we are inagreement I think....
18:56:38 <Jan> KF: To me PF working group still responsible for technologies they develop
18:56:55 <Jan> KF: We can consult but can't be experts on all formats
18:57:11 <oedipus_laptop> strong plus one to KF's last statement - work in liaison with other WG to advise and counsel UA conformance/implementation/requirements
18:57:28 <Jan> KF: So we could expand charter to host best practices for other formats...
18:57:42 <Jan> KF: But not being experts in them
18:57:54 <Jan> AC: So we are just high level things
18:57:59 <oedipus_laptop> also need to address ARIA for those without assistive technology (native UA support)
18:58:20 <Jan> KF: THink so....value of high level base requirements
18:58:23 <Jan> JA: Right
18:58:36 <Jan> MS: Driving key accessible principles into different techs
18:58:45 <oedipus_laptop> http://a11y.org/kafs
18:58:48 <oedipus_laptop> http://a11y.org/kafs-gta
18:59:00 <oedipus_laptop> the second URI is generic test assertions
18:59:08 <Jan> EJ: (Earl Johnson) in Linux foundation...we callled them generic test assertions due to differences across platforms
18:59:28 <Jan> EJ: Can you said it this range, can yout turn on/off beep
18:59:53 <Jan> EJ: Then up to UA developer to figure out how they will meet that test
19:00:25 <Jan> JA: That's how we've operated....
19:00:46 <Jan> JA: UAAG doesn't get down to platform, programming languages...
19:00:58 <oedipus_laptop> detailed work on wiki?
19:01:09 <Jan> JA: But what I'm hearing today is that UAWG could provide the space
19:01:17 <oedipus_laptop> precedent: EO working on ARIA educational materials
19:01:27 <Jan> q+
19:01:49 <Jan> GR: Think EO is working on educational stuff for ARIA
19:04:09 <Jan> Action KF, JA, JR: Think about charter change to take into account user agent implementations...eg link to HTML5 or publishing note as in ARIA
19:04:59 <Jan> JA: Marc and Aaron, we've reached end of time...do you want to come back?
19:06:13 <Jan> AL: So we are pushing format groups to produce user agent implementation techniques
19:06:19 <Jan> GR: Yes
19:06:37 <Jan> AL: So the requiements don't get down to APIs
19:07:17 <Jan> AL: Guess I could come in, but would prefer just to review text, emaiols etc
19:07:59 <Jan> MS: I could prob come back thurs but will talk to Kelly
19:08:06 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
19:08:07 <Zakim> -Aaron_Leventhal
19:08:11 <Zakim> -Cantor
19:08:15 <Zakim> -KFord
19:08:57 <Jan> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide
19:12:28 <Jan> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:12:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-minutes.html Jan
19:12:39 <Jan> RRSAgent, set logs public 
19:12:46 <Jan> Zakim, bye 
19:12:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were KFord, AllanJ, Jan, Cantor, Aaron_Leventhal, Gregory_Rosmaita, Earl_Johnson
19:12:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:12:54 <Jan> RRSAgent, bye 
19:12:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items