14:41:45 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:41:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-rif-irc 14:41:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:41:49 Zakim, this will be RIFWG 14:41:50 ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes 14:41:50 Meeting: Rule Interchange Format Working Group Teleconference 14:41:50 Date: 15 April 2008 14:58:30 csma has joined #rif 14:58:56 Harold has joined #rif 14:59:23 Hi 14:59:24 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:59:25 +Sandro 14:59:31 Meeting: RIF telecon April 15 14:59:45 Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie 14:59:52 AdrianP has joined #rif 15:00:03 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0058.html 15:00:10 Adrian, can you scribe, please? 15:00:19 Hassan has joined #rif 15:00:25 sandro has changed the topic to: 15 April 2008 RIF telecon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0058.html 15:00:46 topic #rif 15 April RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0058.html 15:00:51 +[NRCC] 15:00:56 +Mike_Dean 15:00:56 -Mike_Dean 15:00:56 +Mike_Dean 15:01:01 josb has joined #rif 15:01:02 + +49.351.463.4.aaaa 15:01:03 +Hassan_Ait-Kaci 15:01:13 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:01:13 +AdrianP; got it 15:01:20 +??P38 15:01:29 + +39.047.101.aabb 15:01:30 zakim, ??P38 is me 15:01:32 +csma; got it 15:01:32 IgorMozetic has joined #rif 15:01:37 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:01:55 Scribe: Adrian Paschke 15:01:56 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:01:56 +Harold; got it 15:02:06 Zakim, mute me 15:02:06 AdrianP should now be muted 15:02:08 scribenick: AdiranP 15:02:22 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:22 On the phone I see Sandro, Mike_Dean, Harold, AdrianP (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), csma, josb 15:02:28 +??P12 15:02:37 zakim, ??P12 is me 15:02:37 +IgorMozetic; got it 15:02:43 zakim, mute me 15:02:43 IgorMozetic should now be muted 15:03:05 Regrets: DaveReynolds 15:03:19 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:03:32 ChrisW has joined #rif 15:03:39 +[IBM] 15:03:45 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:03:45 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:03:49 +[IBM] 15:03:50 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:03:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/att-0033/08-rif-minutes.html 15:03:57 +ChrisW; got it 15:03:58 Topic: Administration 15:04:04 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:04:18 PROPOSED: accept minutes of April 8 telecon 15:04:31 RESOLVED: accept minutes of April 8 telecno 15:05:39 +??P55 15:05:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0066.html 15:05:53 Additional issues from Jos 15:07:03 Topic: F2F10 15:07:18 Axel: No news. Any questions? 15:07:39 csma: registration questionair? 15:08:53 Including a question for food preferences would be good. 15:09:17 ACTION: Sandro to open F2F10 questionaire by April 22 15:09:17 Created ACTION-464 - Open F2F10 questionaire by April 22 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-22]. 15:09:35 (vegi/non-vegi) 15:09:40 Including a question for who wants to join a social dinner would be good. 15:09:55 Topic: Liaison 15:10:15 Sandro: new working drafts on OWL2 15:10:29 Sandro: name changed from OWL 1.1 to OWL2 15:10:43 Sandro: three new working drafts 15:10:51 csma: any impact on RIF 15:11:04 Sandro: no, but there is a rule oriented profile 15:11:35 What is a profile? 15:11:38 Sandor: called OWL-R 15:11:50 OWL profile == RIF dialect 15:11:52 +Gary_Hallmark 15:12:20 csma: are they aware of our RIF work 15:12:25 Sandro: yes 15:12:27 not RIF dialect .... "OWL-R" profile is a OWL Fuill subset suitable for implementing with Rule systems. 15:12:28 q? 15:12:32 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-profiles-20080411/ 15:13:09 Topic: Publication of FLD, BLD and SWC 15:13:10 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:13:20 csma: three reviews of FLD 15:13:46 Chris: Linked reviews from web page; four reviews 15:14:04 zakim, unmute me 15:14:04 IgorMozetic should no longer be muted 15:14:04 FLD Reviews: 15:14:06 s/three/four/ 15:14:09 from Leora: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0069.html 15:14:16 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_Working_Group see "Latest Internal Reviews" 15:14:21 From csma: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0069.html 15:14:25 Igor: FLD is ready tro be published 15:14:29 Igor: FLD is ready to be published. Very well written. 15:14:31 From Igor: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0069.html 15:14:41 +1 to Irog 15:14:44 Igor 15:14:50 Stella: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0054.html 15:14:51 +MichaelKifer 15:15:01 csma: Leora also said it is ready to be published 15:15:50 csma: I wanted a few clarifications 15:15:58 michael: send an eMail to the list 15:16:11 csma: How do we handle meta data in this WD? 15:16:21 I am not on the phone, because I am on a work call I can't get out of, but I agree that FLD is quite good. 15:16:39 I do think that there are some changes which would improve it, but certainly it can be published as a working draft. 15:16:45 csma: meta data in EBNF of FLD and BLD? 15:17:21 sandro: send eMail about this to the list 15:17:33 s/send/sent 15:18:00 csma: for each issue we should have an editor note 15:18:31 csma: question of semantic meta data is open 15:18:39 sandro: I suggest that for each open issue, put an editor's note in that place in the document (if there is one), mentioning the issue. 15:19:29 csma: what should be marked as an open issue, e.g. XML naming, syntax and semantics for meta data 15:19:59 +1 15:20:19 "Editor's Note: The design of _______ in this document is currently under discussion by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-nnn" 15:20:27 +q 15:20:39 s/+1// 15:20:39 Chris: We need an editor's note in FLD 15:20:44 q? 15:20:45 zakim, mute me 15:20:45 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:20:53 ack josb 15:20:58 zakim, mute me 15:20:58 IgorMozetic should now be muted 15:21:02 Jos: Additional open issue: rule identification 15:21:21 csma: is it not part of the meta data question? 15:21:24 jos: "rule identification" not really the same as metadata. 15:21:32 Jos: worth to mention explicitly 15:21:42 zakim, unmute me 15:21:42 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:22:08 Jos: there should be an editor's note about syntax and rule identification 15:22:14 zakim, mute me 15:22:14 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:22:20 michael: currently rule identification is part of meta data 15:22:27 q? 15:22:40 q+ 15:22:43 zakim, unmute me 15:22:43 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:22:50 Jos: currently you can not identify single rules 15:23:08 Jos: syntactic issues: meta data and rule identifier 15:23:11 "Editor's Note: The metadata syntax and the way approach to rule identification presented in this draft are currently under discussion by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-nnn" 15:23:18 zakim, mute me 15:23:18 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:23:19 Chris: IRI syntax is still under discussion 15:23:23 "Editor's Note: The metadata syntax and the approach to rule identification presented in this draft are currently under discussion by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-nnn" 15:24:00 q- 15:25:09 zakim, unmute me 15:25:09 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:25:33 michael: there is a way to identify a single rule 15:25:44 csma: by wrapping them in a rule set 15:25:44 zakim, mute me 15:25:44 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:26:01 Chris: open issue on rule identification 15:26:23 {{EdNote|text=The names of XML elements are being discussed by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-49}} 15:27:01 csma: other editor's note for FLD? 15:27:17 csma: other corrections that needs to be done? 15:28:06 Hassan: Concerning XML names, still XML element structure needs to be discussed 15:28:20 csma: XML syntax should be marked as under discussion 15:28:22 {{EdNote|text=The metadata syntax and the approach to rule identification presented in this draft are currently under discussion by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-51}} 15:29:44 Harold: structure was decided 15:29:58 {{EdNote|text=The XML syntax, an especially the element tags, are being discussed by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-49}} 15:30:07 {{EdNote|text=The XML syntax, and especially the element tags, are being discussed by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-49}} 15:30:42 csma: decision about frames and slots was that we use it for working draft 2 15:31:10 Hasan: we should leave it open 15:31:11 {{EdNote|text=The XML syntax, including the element tags, is being discussed by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-49}} 15:31:30 horrendous, indeed! 15:31:39 Chris: so we nee to new editor's notes 15:31:53 zakim, unmute me 15:31:53 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:32:26 csma: csma: additions , modifications to FLD ? 15:32:39 michael: syntax of FLD and BLD need to be closely related 15:32:51 Chris: editor's note go in both documents 15:33:05 csma: in FLD there is no concrete syntax 15:33:24 q? 15:33:40 michael: BNF needs to be fixed 15:34:17 Hassan: final EBNF needs to be further developed and be more compact 15:35:02 + +1.212.781.aacc 15:35:10 zakim, aacc is me 15:35:11 +LeoraMorgenstern; got it 15:35:12 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/FLD#Translation_Between_the_RIF-FLD_Presentation_and_XML_Syntaxes 15:35:37 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Translation_Between_the_RIF-BLD_Presentation_and_XML_Syntaxes 15:35:39 Hassan: translation between presentation syntax to concrete XML syntax needs to be more detailed and worked on 15:36:08 csma: They do not contain all information you nedd? 15:36:55 q+ 15:37:20 Hassan: For BLD these mapping rules need to be expanded. That should be added as editor's note 15:37:34 ack leora 15:37:50 -Gary_Hallmark 15:37:54 {{EdNote|text=This XML syntax translation table is expected to be made more formal in future versions of this draft.}} <--- what Hassan wants, I think. 15:38:12 Yes Sandro - thanks... :-) 15:38:41 Editor's Note: the names of the XML elements in this serialization 15:38:41 are still subject to change. See Working Group Issue-49. 15:38:57 csma: (what I just posted was an error) 15:39:07 {{EdNote|text=This XML syntax translation table is expected to be made more formal in future versions of this draft.}} 15:39:13 {{EdNote|text=The XML syntax, including the element tags, is being discussed by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-49}} 15:39:18 {{EdNote|text=The metadata syntax and the approach to rule identification presented in this draft are currently under discussion by the Working Group. Input is welcome. See Issue-51}} 15:39:28 zakim, mute me 15:39:28 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 15:39:55 csma: FLD should be published if the three editor's notes are added 15:40:24 PROPOSED: That FLD be published as a FWPD with those (above) three Editor's Notes, along with a BNF fix in "External" that MK is talking about now. 15:40:38 michael: EBNF needs to be fixed, problem with External 15:41:25 sandro: can it be fixed by noon? 15:41:46 Harold: EBNF is only a superset and does not contain all features 15:42:10 michael: we can add another editor's note that EBND needs to be fixed 15:42:26 csma: it is a working draft 15:42:52 name dropping? ... ;-) 15:43:19 s/EBND/EBNF/ 15:43:45 Sandro: let's not warn people away from the BNF.... 15:43:52 PROPOSED: That FLD be published as a FWPD with those (above) three Editor's Notes. 15:44:39 PROPOSED: That FLD be published as a FPWD with those (above) three Editor's Notes. 15:44:44 +1 (W3C) 15:44:45 +1 15:44:45 +1 15:44:50 +1 ILOG 15:44:51 +1 (FUB) 15:44:51 +1 (JSI) 15:44:53 +1 (REWERSE) 15:44:53 +1 (NRC) 15:44:57 +1 (DERI) 15:44:59 +Gary_Hallmark 15:45:08 +1 (myself) 15:45:32 +1 15:45:39 +1 15:45:42 +1 (SRI) 15:45:44 +1 (IBM) 15:45:47 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:45:54 zakim, who is the phone? 15:45:54 I don't understand your question, csma. 15:45:54 +1 oracle 15:46:07 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:46:07 On the phone I see Sandro, Mike_Dean, Harold, AdrianP (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), csma, josb, IgorMozetic (muted), StellaMitchell, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer, 15:46:11 ... LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Gary_Hallmark 15:46:25 zakim, its' ok, we often have that problem with csma. 15:46:25 I don't understand you, ChrisW 15:46:27 zakim, mute me 15:46:27 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:47:00 BRAVO!!! 15:47:21 RESOLVED: That FLD be published as a FPWD with those (above) three Editor's Notes. 15:47:32 Topic: BLD Publication 15:47:57 csma: three reviews on BLD 15:48:07 BLD review from csma: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0068.html 15:48:10 my comments were minor, +1 publish 15:48:21 BLD review from Axel: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0050.html 15:48:30 Axel: I'm fine with the responses from Harold 15:48:34 BLD review from Stella: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0044.html 15:48:47 csma: question about equality and external terms 15:49:09 Christian, it's allowed: TERM ::= Const | Var | Expr | 'External' '(' Expr ')' 15:49:09 and, nice job on the BLD 15:49:16 zakim, unmute me 15:49:16 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:49:27 I think it is allowed to have nested externals... 15:49:36 csma: why can we not have a equality between two external terms? 15:49:43 ... I checked that back. 15:50:18 Harold: it is possible to have equality between two external terms 15:50:51 PROPOSED: That BLD be published as a WD with those (above) three Editor's Notes (same as on FLD). 15:50:59 Equality terms. If t and s are simple, positional, or named-argument terms then t = s is an equality term. 15:51:00 csma: we need to check, but let's go ahead with the publication 15:51:10 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Terms 15:51:35 csma: editor's note specific to BLD? 15:51:36 PROPOSED: That BLD be published as a WD with those (above) three Editor's Notes (same as on FLD). 15:51:37 have to go in 5min. I could say some words about the status of DTB... or shall we postpone that to next time? 15:51:41 +1 (DERI) to publish BLD 15:51:42 +1 (W3C) 15:51:49 +1 (ILOG) 15:51:50 +1 (FUB) 15:51:51 +1 (JSI) 15:51:51 +1 (REWERSE) 15:51:52 +1 (SRI) 15:51:55 +1 (IBM) 15:51:56 +1 (NRC) 15:51:57 +1 (myself) 15:52:03 zakim, mute me 15:52:03 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:52:21 +1 Oracle 15:52:30 RESOLVED: That BLD be published as a WD with those (above) three Editor's Notes (same as on FLD). 15:52:43 BRING OUT THE BUBBLES !!! 15:52:45 thanks Harold and Michael ? 15:52:54 zakim, unmute me 15:52:54 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:53:11 Harold: Will do the changes in BLD 15:53:28 michael: I already did for FLD 15:53:51 csma: please do by 1pm today 15:54:02 Topic: SWC 15:54:05 Topic: SWC publication 15:54:21 Mike: document is fine; feedback ok 15:54:28 Mike: publish as is 15:54:46 q+ 15:54:50 csma: any remarks, comments? 15:54:51 ack josb 15:55:49 Jos: WD should have an appendix about changes wrt previous versions 15:55:59 PROPOSED: Publish rif-rdf-owl (aka SWC) as WD. 15:56:04 +1 (DERI) 15:56:07 +1 (W3C) 15:56:10 +1 (FUB) 15:56:10 +1 (ILOG) 15:56:11 +1 (SRI) 15:56:15 +1 (JSI) 15:56:21 +1 (myself) 15:56:31 +1 (REWERSE) 15:56:33 +1 (NRC) 15:56:35 -AxelPolleres 15:56:38 +1 (IBM) 15:56:53 +1 Oracle 15:57:03 RESOLVED: Publish rif-rdf-owl (aka SWC) as WD. 15:57:12 Bravo, Jos! 15:57:13 WOW!!! 15:57:29 zakim, mute me 15:57:29 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:57:52 I have put all 3 ednotes in the FLD wiki 15:58:04 Sandro: publication date is today 15:58:53 Topic: Action review 15:59:20 zakim, mute me 15:59:20 MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer 15:59:22 Action 463 dropped 15:59:29 action 462 done 15:59:44 zakim, unmute me 15:59:44 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:59:59 action 461 done 16:00:00 RRSAgent, pointer? 16:00:00 See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-rif-irc#T16-00-00 16:00:14 michael: action 461 not done 16:02:03 action 461 dropped 16:02:23 action 460 due next week 16:02:45 action 459 pending discussion 16:03:05 zakim, mute me 16:03:05 MichaelKifer should now be muted 16:03:15 zakim, unmute me 16:03:15 IgorMozetic should no longer be muted 16:04:01 action 452 by May 13th 16:04:25 zakim, mute me 16:04:25 IgorMozetic should now be muted 16:04:28 action 449 done 16:04:39 action 447 done 16:05:57 action 435 pending discussion 16:06:47 action 434 continued 16:07:03 action 433 and 430 done 16:07:03 zakim, mute me 16:07:03 MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer 16:07:15 action 428 continued 16:07:22 I added the three above EdNotes to BLD: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=BLD&diff=1234&oldid=1216 16:08:03 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/ToDo_before_BLD_last_call 16:08:42 I just added them 16:09:46 q? 16:10:11 PROPOSED: Close issue 14. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document 16:10:52 RESOLVED: Close issue 14. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document 16:11:02 ACTION: Chris to close issue 14. 16:11:03 Created ACTION-465 - Close issue 14. [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-04-22]. 16:11:31 PROPOSED: Close issue 15. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document 16:11:38 PROPOSED: Close this issue. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document 16:11:45 q? 16:11:49 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-15. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document 16:12:03 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-15. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document 16:12:29 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document. At the time the issue was opened, Core was BLD. 16:12:56 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-24. It is addressed in the RDF+OWL document. At the time the issue was opened, Core was BLD. 16:13:04 ACTION: Chris to close issue-15 16:13:04 Created ACTION-466 - Close issue-15 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-04-22]. 16:13:07 ACTION: Chris to close issue-24 16:13:07 Created ACTION-467 - Close issue-24 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-04-22]. 16:14:27 Jos: selecting of semantics needs to be resolved 16:16:30 q+ 16:16:37 ack josb 16:17:53 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-16, it is addressed in FLD and BLD 16:18:24 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-16, it is addressed (as far as Phase 1) in FLD and BLD through the external call mechanism 16:18:51 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-16, it is addressed (as far as Phase 1) in FLD and BLD through the external call mechanism 16:20:22 q+ 16:20:27 PROPOSED: Remove ISSUE-33 from critical path 16:21:11 ack josb 16:21:39 Jos: We should keep it open and discuss how we refer to RDF graphs 16:22:45 Jos: -1 16:23:11 q? 16:23:33 RIF should support uncertain and probabilistic information (ISSUE-17) 16:23:43 PROPOSED: Postpone this issue 16:24:22 PROPOSED: Postpone ISSUE-17. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:25:24 PROPOSED: Postpone ISSUE-17-20. 16:25:31 q? 16:25:40 PROPOSED: Postpone ISSUE-17. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:25:57 RESOLVED: Postpone ISSUE-17. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:26:12 Adrian: No 16:26:17 Adrian: not in UCR 16:26:42 Hassan: Do we have a use case for probabilistic use case? 16:26:52 Hassan: We need a use case in UCR 16:27:06 RESOLVED: Postpone ISSUE-18. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:27:13 q? 16:27:51 PROPOSED: Postpone ISSUE-19. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:28:13 RESOLVED: Postpone ISSUE-19. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:28:23 PROPOSED: Postpone ISSUE-20. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:29:03 Hassan: What is ORM fact model population? 16:29:18 set of facts 16:29:33 RESOLVED: Postpone ISSUE-20. It is not covered by Phase I of RIF. 16:29:45 Object Role Modeling (ORM): http://www.essentialstrategies.com/publications/modeling/orm.htm 16:30:06 PROPOSED: CLOSE ISSUE-21 - unclear what it means and most likely subsumed by ISSUE-38 16:30:26 Igor: What does it mean? 16:30:37 csma: John Hall brought it up 16:30:45 ^Igor^Hassan 16:31:08 RESOLVED: CLOSE ISSUE-21 - unclear what it means and most likely subsumed by ISSUE-38 16:31:36