IRC log of bpwg on 2008-04-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:50 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #bpwg

13:57:50 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-bpwg-irc

13:57:52 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:57:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #bpwg

13:57:54 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

13:57:55 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

13:57:55 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 15 April 2008

13:57:57 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:58:57 [francois]

Chair: francois

13:59:20 [francois]

Regrets: rob, bryan, hgerlach, jo, kemp

14:00:11 [Magnus]

zakim, code?

14:00:11 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus

14:00:18 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started

14:00:22 [Zakim]

+francois

14:00:25 [Zakim]

+Magnus

14:00:43 [francois]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0025.html

14:00:47 [SeanP]

SeanP has joined #bpwg

14:03:57 [Zakim]

+SeanP

14:04:41 [andrews]

andrews has joined #bpwg

14:05:16 [MartinJ]

MartinJ has joined #bpwg

14:06:36 [Zakim]

+ +0789972aaaa

14:07:02 [andrews]

Zakim, aaaa is me

14:07:02 [Zakim]

+andrews; got it

14:07:21 [Zakim]

+ +1.857.362.aabb

14:07:44 [francois]

zakim, aabb is MartinJ

14:07:44 [Zakim]

+MartinJ; got it

14:08:56 [francois]

zakim, who is on the call?

14:08:56 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Magnus, francois, SeanP, andrews, MartinJ

14:09:31 [MartinJ]

scribe: MartinJ

14:09:38 [francois]

ScribeNick: MartinJ

14:09:40 [MartinJ]

ScribeNick: MartinJ

14:09:44 [francois]

Topic: Doc Status

14:10:06 [MartinJ]

francois: We published the first public working draft as agreed

14:10:12 [francois]

-> http://w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines FPWD of CT guidelines

14:10:39 [MartinJ]

... thanks everyone for participating. I hope we will get some feedback.

14:10:57 [MartinJ]

... our job is not done yet as there are many areas still to cover in the draft

14:11:02 [MartinJ]

... next steps are..

14:11:19 [MartinJ]

... address editorial notes, make structure more clear

14:11:41 [MartinJ]

,,, keep clear concise guidelines. POWDER..

14:12:03 [MartinJ]

... is there anything else that we should address, or any logistical remarks?

14:12:27 [MartinJ]

... looking for suggestions on how we could improve our way of working to move faster than we have done

14:12:29 [SeanP]

I'm happy with how the meetings are run.

14:12:37 [Magnus]

s/,,,/.../

14:12:44 [francois]

Topic: Close some actions without much discussion

14:12:46 [andrews]

+q

14:12:52 [francois]

ack andrews

14:13:05 [francois]

s/Topic: Close some actions without much discussion//

14:13:21 [MartinJ]

andrew: Many thanks to Francois and to Jo for driving this forward.

14:13:39 [MartinJ]

... question I had was how to the public respond to the draft?

14:14:03 [MartinJ]

francois: It is listed in the opening section of the document- to use the mailing list

14:14:25 [MartinJ]

... we may not get any comments but we really hope we do

14:14:35 [francois]

Topic: Close some actions without much discussion

14:14:46 [francois]

ACTION-625?

14:14:46 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-625 -- François Daoust to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content -- due 2008-01-29 -- OPEN

14:14:46 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/625

14:14:57 [MartinJ]

francois: A bunch of actions were created and already resolved

14:15:06 [francois]

Close ACTION-625

14:15:06 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-625 Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content closed

14:15:10 [francois]

ACTION-685

14:15:12 [francois]

ACTION-685?

14:15:12 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-685 -- François Daoust to investigate embedded original headers in altered requests (message/http), external ref to original headers (application/external-body) and/or use of WARNING headers for 3.1.4 -- due 2008-03-10 -- OPEN

14:15:12 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/685

14:15:45 [francois]

Close ACTION-685

14:15:45 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-685 Investigate embedded original headers in altered requests (message/http), external ref to original headers (application/external-body) and/or use of WARNING headers for 3.1.4 closed

14:15:49 [francois]

ACTION-686?

14:15:49 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-686 -- François Daoust to will organise the next CTTF Editors' meeting -- due 2008-03-10 -- OPEN

14:15:49 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/686

14:16:11 [francois]

Close ACTION-686

14:16:11 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-686 Will organise the next CTTF Editors' meeting closed

14:16:15 [francois]

ACTION-731

14:16:18 [francois]

ACTION-731?

14:16:18 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-731 -- Jo Rabin to enact changes resolved in this meeting -- due 2008-04-15 -- OPEN

14:16:18 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/731

14:16:32 [francois]

Close ACTION-731

14:16:32 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-731 Enact changes resolved in this meeting closed

14:17:00 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 Open actions

14:17:01 [MartinJ]

... as a reminder, please check your actions

14:17:15 [MartinJ]

... can see them from the link just pasted

14:17:31 [MartinJ]

... if they are not needed any more then please say so

14:17:44 [francois]

Topic: Alteration of request bodies (§4.1.2)

14:18:10 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0015.html Last message on alteration of request bodies

14:18:38 [MartinJ]

francois: there seems to be some consensus

14:19:22 [matt]

matt has joined #bpwg

14:19:42 [MartinJ]

... we should not go into too many details in the document regarding the cases when the CT proxy actually has to change the request body but all the changes are to make sure the from the CP point of view the request it as it expects it to be

14:19:59 [MartinJ]

... so from the CP point of view the proxy is transparent

14:21:01 [MartinJ]

... document seems a bit clumsy in ites dealing with the HTTP request. It gives the feeling that there is always one request, when it might actually be multiple requests between the user agent and the proxy

14:21:20 [MartinJ]

... not sure how to phrase that in a simple enough way

14:21:40 [SeanP]

q+

14:21:47 [francois]

ack SeanP

14:21:54 [MartinJ]

... maybe "The CT proxy must make sure that from the CP point of view the request remains unchanged" but this is not clear at all

14:24:04 [MartinJ]

SeanP: we are not really talking about something being changed because it hasn't been sent yet. It's the content provider getting what it expects.

14:24:15 [MartinJ]

francois: Yes exactly.

14:24:49 [MartinJ]

SeanP: So "unchanged" is probably not the right word to use.

14:24:50 [SeanP]

q+

14:24:56 [francois]

ack SeanP

14:25:31 [MartinJ]

francois: So should we just replace it all with "The CP must always receive what it expects".

14:26:01 [MartinJ]

SeanP: but without that happening it won't work at all

14:26:34 [MartinJ]

Francois: So I now think we should just drop this part and not say anything about request bodies since it is obvious what must happen

14:27:05 [MartinJ]

zakim, mute me

14:27:05 [Zakim]

MartinJ should now be muted

14:27:21 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: drop the editorial note in 4.1.2 re alteration of request bodies on the basis that it's trivial that the CT-proxy makes sure the Content Provide receives what it expects

14:27:26 [jo]

I think we should mention request bodies otherwise it will seem as though something is missing

14:27:43 [MartinJ]

+1 to Jo

14:27:54 [jo]

we should mention that certain fix-ups are required but are out of scope

14:28:07 [jo]

give examples

14:28:48 [MartinJ]

francois: OK - it doesn't do any harm to state the obvious

14:29:18 [francois]

I'm not sure examples are needed here, but we could go with the "obvious yet true" statement about the Content Provider that must receive the form it expects

14:29:40 [SeanP]

OK with me

14:29:44 [jo]

I think that the wording will need to be carefully constructed

14:29:45 [MartinJ]

and me

14:29:54 [MartinJ]

zakim, unmute me

14:29:54 [Zakim]

MartinJ should no longer be muted

14:30:30 [MartinJ]

zakim, mute me

14:30:30 [Zakim]

MartinJ should now be muted

14:30:55 [MartinJ]

MartinJ: I think examples might imply that we needed them everywhere else too

14:31:12 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: to replace the editorial note in 4.1.2 re alteration of request bodies, write something along the lines of "the CT-proxy MUST ensure that the origin server receives the form it expects"

14:31:18 [jo]

examples are needed elsewhere, I agree

14:31:22 [SeanP]

On the examples, it might not hurt to put one inline or something just so the reader knows where we are coming from.

14:32:14 [MartinJ]

francois: reading the document the good thing is that is not too long and the statements are simple and clear.

14:32:43 [MartinJ]

... adding examples in the doc may not be the best thing to do but we could have them in another section, addressed later on

14:33:14 [SeanP]

+1 to resolution

14:33:24 [MartinJ]

... let's not spend too much time on this. We all agree on the direction anyway..

14:33:47 [MartinJ]

... we have a line from the proposed resolution and we may or may not want to extend it to have examples

14:34:14 [MartinJ]

+1 to resolution

14:34:33 [MartinJ]

francois: If no objection lets take that

14:34:45 [MartinJ]

RESOLUTION: to replace the editorial note in 4.1.2 re alteration of request bodies, write something along the lines of "the CT-proxy MUST ensure that the origin server receives the form it expects"

14:35:16 [MartinJ]

francois: anyone want to take an action for that or we can leave it in Jo's hands

14:35:21 [francois]

ACTION-681?

14:35:21 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-681 -- François Daoust to ask aaron kemp for clarification of the character encoding issue -- due 2008-03-10 -- OPEN

14:35:21 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/681

14:35:59 [francois]

Close ACTION-681

14:35:59 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-681 Ask aaron kemp for clarification of the character encoding issue closed

14:36:27 [SeanP]

I can do it

14:36:45 [francois]

ScribeNick: Magnus

14:36:51 [francois]

ACTION-680?

14:36:51 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-680 -- Robert Finean to provide a pseudo-code example of form transformation for CT document. -- due 2008-03-10 -- OPEN

14:36:51 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/680

14:36:56 [Magnus]

francois: the 2nd option is on Rob

14:37:07 [Magnus]

... might be worth leaving it open if we want to add some examples

14:37:20 [Magnus]

... for example form splitting

14:37:31 [Magnus]

... let's move on

14:37:34 [francois]

Topic: Linearization or zoom capability (§4.1.2)

14:37:41 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0020.html SeanP's comments

14:37:48 [Magnus]

francois: this is an issue raised by Sean

14:37:59 [Magnus]

... in 4.1.2 right after the editorial note

14:38:14 [Magnus]

... knowing about Linearization or zoom capability

14:38:24 [Magnus]

... two things to consider

14:38:29 [Magnus]

... what are out intentions

14:38:42 [Zakim]

+klanz2

14:38:43 [Magnus]

... we are talking about response ,whereas this section is about the request

14:38:53 [Magnus]

s/out/our/

14:38:56 [MartinJ]

zakim, klanz2 is really MartinJ

14:38:56 [Zakim]

+MartinJ; got it

14:39:05 [Magnus]

... if we keep it we should split it into 2

14:39:14 [Magnus]

... one saying the proxy should not change the headers

14:39:19 [Magnus]

... and one for the headers

14:39:37 [francois]

ScribeNick: MartinJ

14:39:37 [jo]

this section is saying that the headers should not be changed if the device is/has a quart in pint pot browser

14:40:24 [MartinJ]

SeanP: reading it again, we are saying that if the client has some transformation capabilities then it should be allowed to do that.

14:40:35 [MartinJ]

... you are right that it it seems to be in the wrong place

14:40:37 [Zakim]

-MartinJ

14:40:58 [MartinJ]

francois: we should split in two: part in 4.4

14:41:31 [MartinJ]

zakim, mute me

14:41:31 [Zakim]

MartinJ.a should now be muted

14:41:48 [MartinJ]

zakim, MartinJ.a is MartinJ

14:41:48 [Zakim]

+MartinJ; got it

14:42:26 [MartinJ]

SeanP: where's the line about were you allow transformation and where you don't - it seems kind of vague

14:42:53 [MartinJ]

... it's not a binary thing - I'm sure there's a range of abilities that clients have.

14:43:11 [MartinJ]

... there may be content types that are not supported for example

14:43:33 [MartinJ]

francois: so do you propose to just remove that part?

14:44:11 [MartinJ]

SeanP: Not sure we want to remove it but we should either expand on it or whatever.

14:44:24 [MartinJ]

francois: Anyone else?

14:45:08 [MartinJ]

... I will take an action to clarify what we intend to say here

14:45:55 [francois]

ACTION: daoust to raise discussion on the mailing-list and propose alternatives re linearization/zoom capabilities and the relation with CT-proxy

14:45:55 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-735 - Raise discussion on the mailing-list and propose alternatives re linearization/zoom capabilities and the relation with CT-proxy [on François Daoust - due 2008-04-22].

14:46:13 [francois]

Topic: Users preferences

14:47:50 [MartinJ]

francois: This was raised by Sean in an email. In 4.1.2 we say that the proxy should not modify unless...

14:47:54 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/#sec-user-control Control by the User

14:48:30 [MartinJ]

... [one of the condtions] the user requested a restructured version...

14:49:40 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: list "Always request the desktop presentation of the resource" as one of the examples in 3.2.1

14:49:41 [MartinJ]

... In 4.1.2 I would have the first point unchanged, but the second point mentioning the user's preference

14:50:06 [SeanP]

+1

14:50:38 [jo]

jo has left #bpwg

14:50:40 [MartinJ]

+1

14:50:50 [andrews]

+1

14:51:17 [MartinJ]

RESOLUTION: list "Always request the desktop presentation of the resource" as one of the examples in 3.2.1

14:52:02 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: add a bullet to the first list of bullets in 4.1.2 "any knowledge it has of user's preferences"

14:52:44 [SeanP]

q+

14:52:49 [francois]

ack SeanP

14:53:36 [MartinJ]

SeanP: Aren't we proposing that administrative agreements are a proxy for or form of the user's preferences?

14:54:07 [MartinJ]

francois: I think we agreed that admin arrangements are out of scope of the document

14:54:49 [MartinJ]

... it makes sense to refer to preferences and not mention admin arrangements. It's implied that they may override preferences

14:55:22 [MartinJ]

... 3.2.3 covers administrative arrangements such as terms and conditions that the user agrees to

14:55:33 [MartinJ]

SeanP: OK

14:56:10 [MartinJ]

francois: If we agree they are out of scope we should just take about them in 3.2.3

14:56:16 [MartinJ]

s/take/talk/

14:56:37 [MartinJ]

SeanP: That's fine with me

14:57:26 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: add a bullet to the first list of bullets in 4.1.2 "any knowledge it has of user's preferences"

14:57:29 [MartinJ]

+1 to the proposed resolution

14:57:34 [SeanP]

+1

14:57:49 [MartinJ]

RESOLUTION: add a bullet to the first list of bullets in 4.1.2 "any knowledge it has of user's preferences"

14:58:40 [MartinJ]

francois: same topic: as a side effect of our discussion I suggest we remove the first bullet in 4.1.2

14:59:12 [MartinJ]

implied by 3.2.3 there are the administrative arrangements

14:59:23 [MartinJ]

s/implied/... implied/

14:59:36 [andrews]

+1

14:59:37 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: remove first bullet that says: "any administrative arrangements that are in place with the user, or the server"

14:59:42 [MartinJ]

+1

14:59:46 [SeanP]

+1

14:59:52 [MartinJ]

RESOLUTION: remove first bullet that says: "any administrative arrangements that are in place with the user, or the server"

15:01:11 [MartinJ]

francois: some more discussion and actions are needed to address the remaining editorial notes so feel free to commence this on the mailing list. You might take it on yourselves to progress these.

15:01:35 [Zakim]

-Magnus

15:01:36 [MartinJ]

zakim, unmute me

15:01:37 [Zakim]

MartinJ should no longer be muted

15:01:37 [Zakim]

-SeanP

15:01:39 [Zakim]

-andrews

15:01:47 [Zakim]

-francois

15:01:51 [Zakim]

-MartinJ

15:01:53 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended

15:01:54 [Zakim]

Attendees were francois, Magnus, SeanP, +0789972aaaa, andrews, +1.857.362.aabb, MartinJ

15:02:49 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:02:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:03:17 [MartinJ]

me says thanks that was what I was going to ask :-)

15:03:46 [MartinJ]

my battery ran out too fast as I was using WiFi for the call

15:05:07 [MartinJ]

MartinJ has left #bpwg

15:19:35 [francois]

RRSAgent, bye

15:19:35 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-bpwg-actions.rdf :

15:19:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: daoust to raise discussion on the mailing-list and propose alternatives re linearization/zoom capabilities and the relation with CT-proxy [1]

15:19:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-bpwg-irc#T14-45-55

15:19:39 [francois]

Zakim, bye

15:19:39 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #bpwg