12:51:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
12:51:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-awwsw-irc
12:52:54 <jar286> zakim, this is awwsw
12:52:54 <Zakim> jar286, I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be awwsw".
12:53:05 <jar286> zakim, this will be awwsw
12:53:05 <Zakim> ok, jar286; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
12:57:22 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
12:57:24 <Zakim> +TimBL
13:01:21 <Zakim> +jar
13:01:23 <Zakim> -jar
13:01:23 <Zakim> +jar
13:02:35 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
13:05:09 <Stuart> Stuart has joined #awwsw
13:05:59 <Zakim> +??P8
13:06:16 <Stuart> zakim, ? is me
13:06:16 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
13:07:11 <alanr> alanr has joined #awwsw
13:07:41 <Zakim> +Alan
13:12:00 <timbl> The TAG had a diagram to express that
13:12:02 <Stuart> jar: suppose that you have a URI that you dereference and different times requesting different language variants.
13:13:00 <Stuart> ... there is something that needs to in some sense be consistent between the returned representations.
13:13:24 <alanr> http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/webarch_icse2000.pdf
13:13:48 <Stuart> ... looking for something that 'mandates' such a connection (between representations).
13:14:13 <jar286> omnigraffle diagram:
13:14:14 <jar286> http://sw.neurocommons.org/2008/inforesource.png
13:14:18 <Stuart> http://sw.neurocommons.org/2008/inforesource.png
13:14:50 <alanr> alanr has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/mid/27822C0C-4167-4EDE-AF8F-74CA7B4921F7@creativecommons.org
13:15:40 <timbl> tag:Representation
13:16:18 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
13:16:19 <timbl> Value includes metadata and bits
13:16:31 <Stuart> jar: uses value mean a value that isn't necessarily constrained to be an 'awww:representation' of any particular thing.
13:16:54 <alanr> u:RepresentationInvariant
13:17:31 <Stuart> q+ to note that Fielding (at least orally) take a utilitarian view of resources.
13:18:35 <Stuart> jar: Fieldings more formal definition of a resource is as a temporal mapping function to sets of equivalent values.
13:19:53 <Stuart> fyi. I think fielding actually says mapping to [sets of equivalent values] or URIs (ie. includes notion of redirection aswell).
13:20:21 <alanr> he writes "any concept that might be the target of a hypertext link" versus "any web page that might be the target of a hypertext link"
13:21:00 <alanr> stuart, yes, including URIs is one of the things that makes it inconsistent
13:22:03 <Stuart> alan... how so?
13:23:27 <alanr> stuart: One inconsistency: Resource = a mapping, versus resource = Any information that can be named can be a resource
13:23:49 <alanr> a document, an image. These are not mappings
13:25:36 <alanr> what about differing laws in us, france re: labeling. 
13:25:52 <alanr> If liability is the criterion, then they could have different information
13:26:11 <alanr> so sometimes = same information, sometimes = same liability
13:26:40 <alanr> this can be confusing if not predictable, discoverable, at least for machine interpreters
13:26:56 <Stuart> Well... I think that (on the web) I can see a document as a mapping to values (which happen to encode the state of the resource).
13:27:48 <alanr> stuart, the slogan here is "that's epistemology". One shouldn't confuse how we come to know something from what that thing is.
13:29:31 <timbl> Now looking at which bit? 
13:29:54 <timbl> q+
13:30:26 <timbl> q+ to say the abstract resource is what is denoted.   Retract my happiness with the document.
13:30:58 <alanr> ack Stuart
13:30:58 <Zakim> Stuart, you wanted to note that Fielding (at least orally) take a utilitarian view of resources.
13:31:15 <timbl> q+ to say the abstract resource is what is denoted.   Retract my happiness with the document.  The abstract document has the social significance (close to Work) .. the value cloud is a figents imaging hte workings of HTTP
13:31:35 <jar286> stuart: uri denotes the abstract resource, cloud is a view
13:32:08 <jar286> stuart: resource proves its utility by being consistent
13:32:54 <jar286> alan: it's not clear enough
13:33:30 <jar286> timbl: commonly, we mean the abstract document byt the uri
13:33:42 <jar286> ... solid line should be denotes, not abused to denote
13:34:19 <jar286> q+ to ask about uris for ADs that differ only by tag cloud
13:35:14 <jar286> timbl: you can't provide a complete definition of IR that will satisfy everyone
13:36:36 <jar286> alanr: 'document' had a prior meaning that was different from AWWW sense
13:37:06 <jar286> timbl: copyright of language variants is held by same entity
13:38:01 <jar286> alanr: work, expression, performance are different from doccument
13:38:38 <jar286> timbl: you can't choose one word that will make all communities happy e.g. library vs. business meann different things by 'document'
13:40:46 <alanr> for the OWL document, we have a section introducing OWL to different communities (If you are a database developer.... If you are a java programmer ...) If Document is to be used as an effective term, I think we need to have such a thing.
13:41:04 <timbl> sameWorkAs
13:41:06 <jar286> jar: can i say sameas for two tag clouds over same AD?
13:41:10 <jar286> timbl: depends on intent
13:41:36 <jar286> sameworkas
13:41:59 <alanr> If it can be sameAs to one community, but not use sameAs in a different community, then doesn't this get in the way of sharing world wide?
13:42:01 <Stuart> I think that you could say that they were variantWorks of the GenericWork.
13:42:24 <Stuart> q?
13:42:28 <jar286> timbl: can't conclude that A is same as B
13:42:35 <jar286> ack jar
13:42:35 <Zakim> jar, you wanted to ask about uris for ADs that differ only by tag cloud
13:43:46 <alanr> people use it all the time
13:44:02 <jar286> timbl: wouldn't use sameas ...
13:44:07 <timbl> bycataloge#awww = <http://www.w3.org/TR/AWWW>.
13:44:40 <jar286> a.com/foo.html = b.com/bar.html ?
13:44:53 <timbl> <> <>
13:45:09 <Stuart> Xiashou has been using "awww:representation" identifies "awww:resource" with an understanding of "awww:representation" to be an ephemeral thing at a moment... and in that context his "awww:representation" identifies "awww:resource" makes sense.
13:46:05 <timbl> <htp://a.com/foo.html>  ex:managedMy   [foaf:name  "A.com" ]
13:46:06 <alanr> but the value cloud is dependent on what the server wants to do
13:46:28 <alanr> two servers serving the same resource don't have to both give the same representations
13:47:00 <alanr> they only have to give the same representations if they serve the same mime type
13:47:46 <jar286> http://a.com/foo = http://b.com/bar ?
13:48:10 <Stuart> Alan... what for you makes the resource available at these servers "the same resource"?
13:48:12 <jar286> timbl: when you refer to it via a particular service, you mean the AD *as managed by that service*
13:49:21 <jar286> timbl: who is responsible for its upkeep?
13:49:40 <jar286> timbl: for most purposes we don't care
13:50:06 <Stuart> Oh... another thing on Fielding's model is that there is a two step mapping URI->fn(t); fn(t)->[representation | URI]
13:50:42 <timbl> Well, we are allowing { ?x ?p ?o } =>  { ?y ?p ?o } for app p and o.
13:50:44 <Stuart> which kind of acknowledges that the URI->resource mapping can change.
13:51:22 <jar286> timbl: there is never a complete semantics
13:51:33 <alanr> Suppose they both are serving a syndicated report of the weather in Oaxaca
13:51:35 <jar286> jar: but what are ok statements to make?
13:51:45 <alanr> that was answer to Stuart
13:52:07 <alanr> stuart, thanks for the picture :)
13:52:13 <Stuart> I'm looking for the kind of objective test that you would use.
13:52:16 <jar286> timbl: the pdf version has a length of 3.2 kilobytes
13:53:22 <alanr> Indeed, I would like that too. I think I know how to do that sort of thing, but usually when I try it is considered to formal, or too boundary
13:53:45 <alanr> s/to/too
13:54:22 <jar286> timbl: value cloud as a set is not worth talking about
13:54:30 <jar286> ... because it's hypothetical
13:54:55 <jar286> ... different ads each time
13:55:12 <Stuart> I think that the value cloud is an artifact of the way that we (Fielding) model a resource (give it a mathematical formulation).
13:55:16 <alanr> q+ to bring in the question of how we come to know based on the value cloud, and he dependence of the value cloud on the server
13:55:20 <jar286> ... misleads people into thinking the resource *is* the set of files
13:55:26 <jar286> ack timbl
13:55:26 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to say the abstract resource is what is denoted.   Retract my happiness with the document. and to say the abstract resource is what is denoted.   Retract my
13:55:30 <Zakim> ... happiness with the document.  The abstract document has the social significance (close to Work) .. the value cloud is a figents imaging hte workings of HTTP
13:56:16 <timbl> I wonder whether w could have a new picture wth the arrow fixed IMO?
13:56:38 <Stuart> I don't think it is intended to say that all resources are literally mappings of function to time, just that we can choose to model them that way.
13:57:59 <jar286> alanr: to the extent that we're trying to learn what the resource is, we can't depend on the value cloud
13:58:32 <Stuart> q?
13:58:47 <alanr> "how do we match a specification to an implementation" - that's what we want
13:59:00 <alanr> ack alanr
13:59:00 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to bring in the question of how we come to know based on the value cloud, and he dependence of the value cloud on the server
13:59:04 <jar286> ack alanr
14:00:47 <jar286> timbl: stuart, can you remember where the edinburgh diagram is?
14:01:43 <jar286> stuart: it's important that the uri denote the abstract document
14:01:59 <jar286> ... if people make statements about the representations using the uri, they're doing the wrong thing
14:02:22 <Zakim> -Alan
14:02:29 <alanr> blasted phone battery. back in a sec
14:03:07 <Stuart> content-location:
14:03:22 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
14:03:28 <jar286> .... representations are not the things being referred to ...
14:04:24 <Stuart> Jar... have you taken a peak at Larry Masinter TBD and DURI draft?
14:08:07 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
14:08:37 <Zakim> -TimBL
14:08:38 <Zakim> -Stuart
14:08:39 <Zakim> -jar
14:08:39 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:08:40 <Zakim> Attendees were TimBL, jar, Stuart, Alan, Alan_Ruttenberg
14:11:44 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-awwsw-minutes.html alanr
14:11:56 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public
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16:04:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw