IRC log of xhtml on 2008-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:00:16 [RRSAgent]

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13:00:16 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-irc

13:15:36 [ShaneM]

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13:28:20 [Tina]

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13:29:05 [ShaneM]

I dont think you are late. I think we start in 15

13:30:26 [Tina]

My timing *and* my time zone is messed up, I'm afraid

13:36:42 [Steven-eee]

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13:39:19 [Roland]

Zakim, this will be XHTML2

13:39:19 [Zakim]

ok, Roland, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started

13:39:46 [myakura]

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13:39:57 [ShaneM]

why does it think it is already started I wonder

13:40:03 [Steven-eee]

zakim, who is here?

13:40:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Roland

13:40:05 [Zakim]

On IRC I see myakura, Steven-eee, Tina, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, Lachy, deane, krijnh

13:40:45 [Roland]

Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

13:40:54 [Roland]

Chair: Roland

13:41:13 [Roland]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0014.html

13:41:59 [Roland]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:41:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

13:42:12 [Roland]

rrsagent, make log public

13:43:03 [Steven-eee]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/02-xhtml-minutes

13:43:30 [oedipus]

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13:43:50 [Roland]

Regrets: Alessio

13:44:45 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

13:44:48 [Zakim]

-Roland

13:44:49 [Zakim]

+Roland

13:45:42 [markbirbeck]

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+??P5

13:47:31 [yamx]

??P5 is yamx

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13:49:55 [oedipus]

GJR: having very nasty computer problems -- will call in a.s.a.p. -- just want to communicate that there is no obstacle or objection from PF on moving Role forward if that is what the xHTML2 WG wants -- Role transition gets a big plus one from me (in case i miss the discussion)

13:51:20 [Tina]

:)

13:53:05 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

13:53:05 [Zakim]

the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

13:53:18 [ShaneM]

scribe: shane

13:53:29 [ShaneM]

err... Scribe: ShaneM

13:53:46 [Roland]

rrsagent, make log public

13:53:55 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck

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13:54:09 [ShaneM]

Scribe: ShaneM

13:54:13 [Roland]

Scribe: ShaneM

13:56:21 [ShaneM]

Topic: CSS Namespaces

13:56:52 [ShaneM]

No progress yet. Seems like there is some softening of their position. Need a formal response from them.

13:56:59 [ShaneM]

Topic: XML:Base

13:57:03 [ShaneM]

No progress yet.

13:57:09 [ShaneM]

Topic: F2F in Minneapolis

13:57:14 [ShaneM]

Should have a contract resolved this week.

13:57:25 [ShaneM]

Topic: CURIE transition

13:57:29 [ShaneM]

Public working draft is updated.

13:58:06 [ShaneM]

Topic: XHTML-Role to last call

13:58:17 [ShaneM]

Request to publish has been made.

13:58:30 [ShaneM]

Values of role in the XHTML vocabulary

13:58:43 [ShaneM]

see http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab

13:58:52 [ShaneM]

Roland: what do we need to do here?

13:59:59 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: Let the ARIA group do it

14:00:46 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: values are going to be used quite widely. We might need to ensure that non-ARIA values are "correct"

14:01:27 [oedipus]

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14:01:33 [ShaneM]

Roland: perhaps the vocabulary should be rec track

14:01:33 [markbirbeck]

s/non-ARIA values/values/

14:02:22 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:02:31 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: while the document itself is not rec-track, the input to it IS.

14:03:20 [ShaneM]

Roland: At least there should be an appropriate process for ensuring that things only go in there after appropriate review.

14:03:50 [ShaneM]

oedipus: I have an action (from the PFWG) to review Mark's comments on the vocabulary.

14:05:29 [ShaneM]

oedipus: there was a mail from the PF chair that was private asking about how the vocab document evolved and whether it was tied to the role document.

14:06:34 [ShaneM]

Roland: need to ensure there is no collisions between the XHTML values and the ARIA values. ShaneM says that he has already worked that out with Michael Cooper.

14:07:07 [ShaneM]

oedipus: Any redundant values should be left to the XHTML Role document.

14:07:42 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: concerned that the ARIA group can put their values straight into the vocabulary.

14:08:24 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: the "multiple word" approach to terms in the ARIA document sort of misses the point of role. Should be "alert dialog", not "alertdialog".

14:08:40 [ShaneM]

q

14:09:14 [Steven-eee]

as long as it's not aria:alert aria:dialog

14:09:15 [oedipus]

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14:09:38 [markbirbeck]

q+

14:09:50 [ShaneM]

oedipus: Some of the values in the ARIA spec are related to how assistive technologies work in the marketplace today and are driven my market realities.

14:09:51 [ShaneM]

q+

14:10:21 [ShaneM]

oedipus: values like "slider" are for things we have inherited. Not for the future. This is related to XHTML 1.0.

14:10:28 [ShaneM]

s/XHTML/ARIA/

14:11:13 [Tina]

We should be extra careful with inherited techniques, and only include them in a standard if they are also good ideas.

14:11:37 [ShaneM]

Roland: perhaps we could specify some "pure roles" in the XHTML Role superior vocabulary so that we can be more forward looking while the ARIA values are designed to help their marketplace.

14:14:04 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: The group agreed at the last f2f to include the values in the vocabulary space. We did not put any conditions on how those values would be included.

14:14:51 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: points out that role values are not inherited becuase there was no role attribute. What we have is a need to map values to legacy implementations to support them.

14:15:13 [ShaneM]

Roland: There is clearly work to do here. We need a complete list.

14:15:23 [Tina]

If they make sense, yes. We shouldn't do so just because they exist. This is important.

14:16:08 [ShaneM]

oedipus: If there is a disconnect about what we agreed with the PFWG?

14:17:01 [ShaneM]

Roland: We deferred to the ARIA guys saying "you define what you would like in the vocabulary, and we will put them into the space". oedipus agrees that is what the understanding was.

14:17:29 [ShaneM]

Roland: The issue is that the lists are somewhat disjoint - they don't look like they were produced by the same group of people.

14:17:48 [ShaneM]

oedipus: I volunteer to work with whomoever on this. I am in both groups.

14:18:33 [ShaneM]

Roland: A separate interesting topic is how do we manage vocabularies in general...

14:18:42 [ShaneM]

TOPIC: Managing CURIE Vocabularies

14:19:15 [ShaneM]

Roland: definition for values of @rel/@rev

14:19:28 [ShaneM]

Roland: There is some IETF work in this space. And the HTML 5 group seems to be looking at it too.

14:20:47 [Roland]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0013.html

14:21:03 [ShaneM]

TAG work on sem web data in HTTP headers - the LINK header

14:21:50 [ShaneM]

There needs to be a way of managing the collection of values that go into a vocabulary so we don't end up with a mess.

14:22:38 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: What about CURIEs - doesn't that help?

14:22:55 [ShaneM]

Roland: Not really because there needs to be agreement on basic semantics so vocabularies get used.

14:23:56 [Roland]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0026.html

14:23:59 [ShaneM]

The Math WG is trying to ensure that the entity collection is consistent among all groups that care.

14:24:30 [ShaneM]

We absolutely care about the collection of entities, since XHTML 1 / 1.1 / 2 all define consistent collections today.

14:25:06 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane to ensure there are no inconsistencies between the MathML entity set and the XHTML entity set.

14:25:33 [Steven-eee]

I seem to remember we did/tried to do just that long ago

14:25:38 [ShaneM]

oedipus: It is not clear that the HTML 5 group has actually made any changes in that space.

14:26:05 [Steven-eee]

I remember long discussions about values of entities being used in MathML

14:26:53 [Steven-eee]

(where is Masaysu when you need hime)

14:26:53 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: There should be consistency, but I am sure that we already addressed this years ago.

14:27:08 [Steven-eee]

s/hime/him/

14:27:12 [Steven-eee]

ok

14:29:15 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: we have the definitivbe collection as part of M12N, and we harmonized that with the MathML collection. But we do not defer to them 'cause our collection is the base definition for the web.

14:30:17 [ShaneM]

oedipus: Will check with the PFWG, but he is pretty sure that AT vendors rely upon these definitions too. I will try to get confirmation.

14:30:57 [ShaneM]

Roland: is there something we should be doing with @rel values too?

14:31:38 [markbirbeck]

<link rel="license" ... />

14:31:38 [markbirbeck]

<l ink rel="[foaf:knows]" ... />

14:32:44 [markbirbeck]

s/l ink/link/

14:33:10 [ShaneM]

Roland: What would happen if we do not harmonize?

14:33:48 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: there is some risk, but RDFa has a lot of momentum so it is likely XHTML / RDFa will dominate.

14:34:24 [Steven-eee]

shouldn' that be <link rel="foaf:knows" ...?

14:34:28 [Steven-eee]

No need for [] in rel

14:35:17 [ShaneM]

Mark was pointing out that there was an alternate potential syntax historically.

14:35:43 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: we should make it so important @rel values are in the vocabulary and coordinate with these other groups.

14:36:27 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane and Mark should open up this dialog and see if we can't get the other @rel people to come play with us

14:37:16 [ShaneM]

TOPIC: XHTML-Access Module

14:38:07 [ShaneM]

oedipus: Other groups that have seen the access module are looking for mappings to specific APIs.

14:38:35 [ShaneM]

ARIA Provides appendices about mapping ARIA stuff to APIs.

14:39:13 [ShaneM]

Roland: Access is not primarily about assistive technology. It is there to support the mobile community too.

14:40:22 [ShaneM]

oedipus: True. But from the point of view of AT people how to cascade the access effects portably among implementations.

14:41:41 [ShaneM]

ShaneM: there's nothing in the access module to bind to. It is only useful in conjunction with the XML Event module (and XML Handlers).

14:42:04 [ShaneM]

Perhaps there is some baggage associated with this in the accessibility community.

14:42:16 [ShaneM]

People are looking for cascade rules.

14:42:37 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Gregory to ensure that we get feedback about needing cascade rules in xhtml-access

14:43:42 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:43:43 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

14:43:44 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

14:43:44 [Zakim]

-??P5

14:43:46 [Zakim]

-Roland

14:43:46 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

14:43:47 [Zakim]

Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita

14:44:04 [yamx]

??P5 is yamx

14:44:10 [Roland]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:44:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

14:45:03 [RolandMerrick]

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14:45:14 [RolandMerrick]

Regrets: Alessio

14:45:36 [Roland]

Zakim, list

14:45:36 [Zakim]

I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, HTML_Forms()10:45AM active

14:45:39 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time are SW_GRDDL()11:00AM, SW_SWEO()10:00AM, RWC_WAPI()10:30AM, XML_Core()11:00AM, SEC_WSCWG()11:00AM, MM_MMI(dialog)11:00AM

14:46:33 [RolandMerrick]

Present: Roland, Shane, Mark, Gregory, Yam, Steven(IRC), Tina (IRC)

14:46:44 [RolandMerrick]

Scribe: ShaneM

14:46:58 [Roland]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:46:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

14:47:46 [Roland]

rrsagent, publish minutes

14:47:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

14:48:10 [RolandMerrick]

zakim, please part

14:48:10 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml

14:48:28 [RolandMerrick]

rrsagent, please part

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-actions.rdf :

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to ensure there are no inconsistencies between the MathML entity set and the XHTML entity set. [1]

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-irc#T14-25-06

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane and Mark should open up this dialog and see if we can't get the other @rel people to come play with us [2]

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-irc#T14-36-27

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Gregory to ensure that we get feedback about needing cascade rules in xhtml-access [3]

14:48:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-irc#T14-42-37