IRC log of rif on 2008-04-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:47:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:47:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-rif-irc
14:47:06 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:47:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rif
14:47:08 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be RIFWG
14:47:08 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:47:09 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Rule Interchange Format Working Group Teleconference
14:47:09 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 08 April 2008
14:51:07 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
14:53:35 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
14:54:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:54:27 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:54:34 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:55:20 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 8-Apr-08
14:55:24 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:55:33 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:57:15 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:57:22 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2f10
14:57:27 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Actions
14:57:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:57:39 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Pub Plan
14:57:48 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Syntax/Metadata
14:57:54 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:58:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
14:58:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
14:58:13 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:54 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:03 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:01:29 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:01:31 [Zakim]
-Sandro
15:01:32 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:01:33 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:01:46 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:46 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:15 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:03:34 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:03:59 [Harold]
Hi
15:04:18 [ChrisW]
hi
15:04:22 [Zakim]
+??P18
15:04:38 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P18 is me
15:04:45 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:04:50 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:04:51 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:04:51 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:05:25 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:05:26 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:05:30 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), Harold
15:05:39 [Zakim]
+??P39
15:06:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aaaa
15:07:14 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aaa is me
15:07:14 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:07:21 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:07:21 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:07:56 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:07:56 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose IgorMozetic (muted)
15:07:58 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:07:58 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:08:09 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, unmute me
15:08:09 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
15:08:16 [ChrisW]
Scribe: IgorMozetic
15:08:29 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/att-0017/01-04-2008-rif-minutes.html
15:08:43 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of April 1 telecon
15:08:52 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, next item
15:08:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "F2f10" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:57 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of April 1 telecon
15:08:57 [Zakim]
+Mark_Proctor
15:09:22 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:09:46 [Harold]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer (muted), Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark
15:10:09 [IgorMozetic]
Axel: no news on F2F10
15:10:16 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:10:16 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Actions" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:57 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:10:57 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:12:25 [IgorMozetic]
Michael: metadata are described as frames and added to the rules/rulesets
15:12:40 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:12:40 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:14:11 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:14:15 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:14:55 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:14:55 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:15:44 [IgorMozetic]
Axel: status of DT&B - final version by Friday, April 11
15:16:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:16:08 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:12 [AxelPolleres]
s/final version/version for review/
15:16:22 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 4
15:16:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Liason, closed
15:16:23 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:16:24 [Zakim]
5. Pub Plan [from ChrisW]
15:16:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:16:25 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Pub Plan" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:59 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: we have frozen versions of FLD nad BLD
15:17:25 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:17:27 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:18:37 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:21:00 [IgorMozetic]
Michael: we have a notion of scope (corresponding to block in PLs)
15:21:47 [conan]
conan has joined #rif
15:22:15 [markproctor]
sorry can't scribe, haven to prepare for a release. so only listening in the background.
15:22:50 [Harold]
"rif:local constant in different documents are viewed as unrelated distinct constants" <http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/FLD#Symbol_Spaces>
15:25:01 [ChrisW]
action: mkifer to add definition of rif:local to BLD
15:25:01 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-461 - Add definition of rif:local to BLD [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-04-15].
15:26:28 [Hassan]
I made the same comments as ChrisW and Dave Raynolds made re. "Group"
15:26:42 [IgorMozetic]
michael: a bse case for metadata is a group of rules, not a single rule
15:26:50 [IgorMozetic]
s/bse/base/
15:27:23 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: group vs. block is not decided yet, it seems an aestetic issue
15:27:42 [ChrisW]
q?
15:27:45 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/draft/rif-bld/
15:27:57 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/draft/rif-fld/
15:28:39 [AxelPolleres]
until end of next week ok?
15:29:12 [ChrisW]
need reviews by april 15th
15:29:20 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: volunteers for review by next week, April 15
15:29:22 [AxelPolleres]
can try bld until then, but not both
15:29:36 [ChrisW]
action: axel to review bld
15:29:36 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-462 - Review bld [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-04-15].
15:29:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)
15:30:02 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:30:02 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:31:48 [markproctor]
sorry I'm just not going to get the time at the moment.
15:32:51 [IgorMozetic]
sandro to send an email to the group, searching for reviewers
15:33:56 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: deadline for publication request is noon, April 15
15:34:28 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: actual publication deadline is April 17
15:34:59 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: will prepare the request
15:35:34 [sandro]
Action: Chris to send e-mail telling the group about us making publication decision on 15 April.
15:35:34 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-463 - Send e-mail telling the group about us making publication decision on 15 April. [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-04-15].
15:35:50 [AxelPolleres]
ok.
15:35:54 [DavidHirtle]
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15:35:55 [sandro]
Chris: Let us know as soon as possible about any issues with new draft.
15:36:14 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: the group will decide on April 15 to publish or not
15:36:32 [sandro]
Harold: Keep in mind that this is Working Draft (and FPWD of FLD).
15:36:48 [IgorMozetic]
harold: it's WD1 for FLD and WD2 for BLD
15:37:18 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:37:18 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:39:43 [IgorMozetic]
michael: BLD will eventually refer to DT&B document regarding rif:local
15:40:18 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: BLD should be as self contained as possible
15:41:43 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: a short mention of what rif:local is would be helpful
15:43:44 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
15:44:11 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix
15:44:21 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as section 2
15:44:37 [Hassan]
-1
15:46:21 [IgorMozetic]
michael: every dialect should be specialization of FLD, therefore this section
15:46:40 [IgorMozetic]
... might be even more important then the BLD document itself
15:47:20 [IgorMozetic]
hassan: argues that this fits into the appendix
15:49:00 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:49:07 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: for implementors of BLD, FLD is not required
15:49:31 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: for dialect designers FLD is essential
15:51:33 [IgorMozetic]
chrisw: proposes to move sec.2 to the last section
15:51:40 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as section 5
15:51:49 [Hassan]
+1
15:52:05 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as last section before refs
15:52:17 [sandro]
+0 I prefer appendix, but this is fine.
15:52:20 [Hassan]
+1
15:52:24 [AxelPolleres]
+1
15:52:24 [MichaelKifer]
+0
15:52:32 [IgorMozetic]
0, I prefer as it is now
15:52:44 [Harold]
+0
15:52:49 [ChrisW]
+0
15:53:05 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as last section before refs
15:53:21 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:53:21 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:53:30 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:53:30 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Syntax/Metadata" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:53:41 [Harold]
What about a brief para at the end of the Overview suggesting two possible 'workflows' through the document? Something like: Dialect designers and readers who want to understand should read the last section of the document (before the references) next. Other readers just proceed sequentially.
15:54:18 [ghallmar]
ghallmar has joined #rif
15:54:25 [Harold]
s/understand/understand comprehensively/
15:54:41 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:55:08 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:56:02 [IgorMozetic]
hassan: would prefer an abridged version of presentation syntax
15:56:06 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:56:06 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:56:15 [GaryHallmark]
+1 for better syntax
15:56:27 [GaryHallmark]
but "better" is subjective...
15:56:37 [Zakim]
+ +6928aabb
15:56:52 [csma]
zakim, aabb is me
15:56:52 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:56:57 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:56:57 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:57:11 [IgorMozetic]
hassan: better name for "Group" -> maybe "RuleSet"
15:57:42 [IgorMozetic]
hassan: names will last, we have to pick them carefully
15:59:19 [csma]
issue-49: Naming in RIF-BLD EBNF and XML syntax
15:59:41 [Harold]
We use "Group" because FLD has formulas more general than rules and because it's just a grouping construct.
16:00:38 [IgorMozetic]
hassan: the core (presentation) syntax is good for reading, but lacks detail for tools
16:01:14 [GaryHallmark]
ideally, the use cases in the UCR can be expressed in presentation syntax and this would serve as a good introduction and advertisement for RIF
16:01:28 [IgorMozetic]
michael: RuleSet is not neutral to other dialects
16:01:30 [Harold]
For a later WD, we could have an Abridged presentation syntax as well as the current Full presentation syntax. Hassan and I looked at this:
16:01:41 [Harold]
Full presentation syntax Abridged presentation syntax Remark
16:01:41 [Harold]
"foo:bar"^^rif:iri <foo:bar> IETF's angular bracket notation
16:01:41 [Harold]
purchase^^rif:local purchase locality by default
16:01:41 [Harold]
"a b c"^^xsd:string "a b c" Full: quotes are part of ^ syntax
16:01:41 [Harold]
"10"^^xsd:integer 10 as in programming languages
16:01:42 [Harold]
"1000000000"^^xsd:long 1000000000 as in programming languages
16:01:44 [Harold]
"3.14"^^xsd:decimal 3.14 as in programming languages
16:01:46 [Harold]
. . .
16:02:45 [GaryHallmark]
how about X and Y instead of And(X Y)
16:03:11 [GaryHallmark]
how about B if A instead of B :- A
16:03:26 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
16:03:37 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: IgorMozetic (4%), Sandro (4%), ChrisW (10%), MichaelKifer (77%)
16:03:53 [Harold]
q+
16:04:14 [IgorMozetic]
michael: a problem if there is a different syntaxt between defined language and examples
16:04:15 [csma]
Gray, in PRD, it would be if A then B; That's why I believe that presentation syntaxes should be different in different dialects
16:05:08 [IgorMozetic]
harold: proposes a shorthand (abridged) syntaxt, presentation syntax, and XML
16:05:11 [GaryHallmark]
csma - then what is the presentation syntax of Core>
16:05:15 [Harold]
The Abridged presentation syntax could be just a SHORTHAND for test cases.
16:05:55 [Harold]
But let's not do it in this round. We cannot risk any delay for our Apr 15 and 17 deadlines!
16:06:02 [IgorMozetic]
michael: doesn't object adding a shortcut (abridged) syntax to examples
16:06:20 [sandro]
Chris: This is NOT for this publication round.
16:06:41 [sandro]
MichaelKifer: Let's think about this (presentation syntax issues) after the 16ths.
16:07:02 [csma]
Gary, any, or both... the prez syntax is not normative, it is not interchanged; the XML is
16:08:18 [AxelPolleres]
+1
16:08:19 [sandro]
NONBINDING-PROPOSAL: Allow shortcuts in Presentation SYntax?
16:08:23 [sandro]
+1
16:08:28 [Hassan]
+1
16:08:30 [AxelPolleres]
:-) please!
16:08:31 [IgorMozetic]
all: let's try common shortcuts for the abridged presentatin syntax
16:08:33 [GaryHallmark]
+1
16:08:35 [IgorMozetic]
+1
16:08:49 [Harold]
+1 (There could be an *additional* Appendix in BLD WD3)
16:09:15 [DavidHirtle]
+1
16:09:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:09:48 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisW
16:09:50 [ChrisW]
q?
16:09:53 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:09:53 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:09:56 [ChrisW]
ack harold
16:10:02 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:10:02 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:10:10 [IgorMozetic]
+1
16:10:16 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
16:10:19 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:10:19 [csma]
ok
16:10:21 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:10:26 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:10:28 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:10:42 [ChrisW]
Regrets: DaveReynolds PaulVincent JosDeBruijn
16:10:46 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:10:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +6928aabb,
16:10:49 [Zakim]
... csma
16:10:52 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:11:09 [Zakim]
-IgorMozetic
16:11:09 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:11:11 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:11:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:11:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, Mark_Proctor, csma
16:11:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, drop Mark_Proctor
16:11:39 [Zakim]
Mark_Proctor is being disconnected
16:11:41 [Zakim]
-Mark_Proctor
16:19:02 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:19:04 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:19:05 [Zakim]
-csma
16:19:06 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:19:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +6928aabb, csma
16:21:16 [csma]
csma has left #rif
16:31:45 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rif