14:47:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:47:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-rif-irc
14:47:06 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:47:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rif
14:47:08 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be RIFWG
14:47:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:47:09 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Rule Interchange Format Working Group Teleconference
14:47:09 <trackbot-ng> Date: 08 April 2008
14:51:07 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
14:53:35 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
14:54:27 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:54:27 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:34 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:54:34 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:55:20 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 8-Apr-08
14:55:24 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:55:33 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:57:15 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:57:22 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2f10
14:57:27 <ChrisW> agenda+ Actions
14:57:34 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:57:39 <ChrisW> agenda+ Pub Plan
14:57:48 <ChrisW> agenda+ Syntax/Metadata
14:57:54 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:58:06 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
14:58:11 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
14:58:13 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:54 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:29 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:31 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:01:32 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:01:33 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:46 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:46 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:02:15 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:03:34 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:03:59 <Harold> Hi
15:04:18 <ChrisW> hi
15:04:22 <Zakim> +??P18
15:04:38 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P18 is me
15:04:45 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:04:50 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:04:51 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:04:51 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:05:25 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:05:26 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:05:30 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), Harold
15:05:39 <Zakim> +??P39
15:06:59 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aaaa
15:07:14 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aaa is me
15:07:14 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:07:21 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aaaa is me
15:07:21 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:07:56 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:07:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose IgorMozetic (muted)
15:07:58 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:07:58 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:08:09 <IgorMozetic> zakim, unmute me
15:08:09 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
15:08:16 <ChrisW> Scribe: IgorMozetic
15:08:29 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/att-0017/01-04-2008-rif-minutes.html
15:08:43 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes of April 1 telecon
15:08:52 <IgorMozetic> zakim, next item
15:08:52 <Zakim> agendum 2. "F2f10" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:57 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of April 1 telecon
15:08:57 <Zakim> +Mark_Proctor
15:09:22 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:09:46 <Harold> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer (muted), Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark
15:10:09 <IgorMozetic> Axel: no news on F2F10
15:10:16 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Actions" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:57 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:10:57 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:12:25 <IgorMozetic> Michael: metadata are described as frames and added to the rules/rulesets
15:12:40 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:12:40 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:14:11 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:14:15 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:14:55 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:14:55 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:15:44 <IgorMozetic> Axel: status of DT&B - final version by Friday, April 11
15:16:08 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:16:08 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:12 <AxelPolleres> s/final version/version for review/
15:16:22 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 4
15:16:22 <Zakim> agendum 4, Liason, closed
15:16:23 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:16:24 <Zakim> 5. Pub Plan [from ChrisW]
15:16:25 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:16:25 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Pub Plan" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:59 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: we have frozen versions of FLD nad BLD
15:17:25 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:17:27 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:18:37 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:21:00 <IgorMozetic> Michael: we have a notion of scope (corresponding to block in PLs)
15:21:47 <conan> conan has joined #rif
15:22:15 <markproctor> sorry can't scribe, haven to prepare for a release. so only listening in the background.
15:22:50 <Harold> "rif:local constant in different documents are viewed as unrelated distinct constants" <http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/FLD#Symbol_Spaces>
15:25:01 <ChrisW> action: mkifer to add definition of rif:local to BLD
15:25:01 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-461 - Add definition of rif:local to BLD [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-04-15].
15:26:28 <Hassan> I made the same comments as ChrisW and Dave Raynolds made re. "Group"
15:26:42 <IgorMozetic> michael: a bse case for metadata is a group of rules, not a single rule
15:26:50 <IgorMozetic> s/bse/base/
15:27:23 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: group vs. block is not decided yet, it seems an aestetic issue
15:27:42 <ChrisW> q?
15:27:45 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/draft/rif-bld/
15:27:57 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/draft/rif-fld/
15:28:39 <AxelPolleres> until end of next week ok?
15:29:12 <ChrisW> need reviews by april 15th
15:29:20 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: volunteers for review by next week, April 15
15:29:22 <AxelPolleres> can try bld until then, but not both
15:29:36 <ChrisW> action: axel to review bld
15:29:36 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-462 - Review bld [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-04-15].
15:29:45 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)
15:30:02 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:30:02 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:31:48 <markproctor> sorry I'm just not going to get the time at the moment.
15:32:51 <IgorMozetic> sandro to send an email to the group, searching for reviewers
15:33:56 <IgorMozetic> sandro: deadline for publication request is noon, April 15
15:34:28 <IgorMozetic> sandro: actual publication deadline is April 17
15:34:59 <IgorMozetic> sandro: will prepare the request
15:35:34 <sandro> Action: Chris to send e-mail telling the group about us making publication decision on 15 April.
15:35:34 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-463 - Send e-mail telling the group about us making publication decision on 15 April. [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-04-15].
15:35:50 <AxelPolleres> ok.
15:35:54 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:35:55 <sandro> Chris: Let us know as soon as possible about any issues with new draft.
15:36:14 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: the group will decide on April 15 to publish or not
15:36:32 <sandro> Harold: Keep in mind that this is Working Draft (and FPWD of FLD).  
15:36:48 <IgorMozetic> harold: it's WD1 for FLD and WD2 for BLD
15:37:18 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:37:18 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:39:43 <IgorMozetic> michael: BLD will eventually refer to DT&B document regarding rif:local
15:40:18 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: BLD should be as self contained as possible
15:41:43 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: a short mention of what rif:local is would be helpful
15:43:44 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
15:44:11 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix
15:44:21 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as section 2
15:44:37 <Hassan> -1
15:46:21 <IgorMozetic> michael: every dialect should be specialization of FLD, therefore this section
15:46:40 <IgorMozetic> ... might be even more important then the BLD document itself
15:47:20 <IgorMozetic> hassan: argues that this fits into the appendix
15:49:00 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:49:07 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: for implementors of BLD, FLD is not required
15:49:31 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: for dialect designers FLD is essential
15:51:33 <IgorMozetic> chrisw: proposes to move sec.2 to the last section
15:51:40 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as section 5
15:51:49 <Hassan> +1
15:52:05 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as last section before refs
15:52:17 <sandro> +0 I prefer appendix, but this is fine.
15:52:20 <Hassan> +1
15:52:24 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:52:24 <MichaelKifer> +0
15:52:32 <IgorMozetic> 0, I prefer as it is now
15:52:44 <Harold> +0
15:52:49 <ChrisW> +0
15:53:05 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Repeal resolution regarding moving "RIF-BLD as a specialization of FLD" to appendix and keep that as last section before refs
15:53:21 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:53:21 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:53:30 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:53:30 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Syntax/Metadata" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:53:41 <Harold> What about a brief para at the end of the Overview suggesting two possible 'workflows' through the document? Something like: Dialect designers and readers who want to understand should read the last section of the document (before the references) next. Other readers just proceed sequentially.
15:54:18 <ghallmar> ghallmar has joined #rif
15:54:25 <Harold> s/understand/understand comprehensively/
15:54:41 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:55:08 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:56:02 <IgorMozetic> hassan: would prefer an abridged version of presentation syntax
15:56:06 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:56:06 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:56:15 <GaryHallmark> +1 for better syntax
15:56:27 <GaryHallmark> but "better" is subjective...
15:56:37 <Zakim> + +6928aabb
15:56:52 <csma> zakim, aabb is me
15:56:52 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:56:57 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:56:57 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:57:11 <IgorMozetic> hassan: better name for "Group" -> maybe "RuleSet"
15:57:42 <IgorMozetic> hassan: names will last, we have to pick them carefully
15:59:19 <csma> issue-49: Naming in RIF-BLD EBNF and XML syntax
15:59:41 <Harold> We use "Group" because FLD has formulas more general than rules and because it's just a grouping construct.
16:00:38 <IgorMozetic> hassan: the core (presentation) syntax is good for reading, but lacks detail for tools
16:01:14 <GaryHallmark> ideally, the use cases in the UCR can be expressed in presentation syntax and this would serve as a good introduction and advertisement for RIF
16:01:28 <IgorMozetic> michael: RuleSet is not neutral to other dialects
16:01:30 <Harold> For a later WD, we could have an Abridged presentation syntax as well as the current Full presentation syntax. Hassan and I looked at this:
16:01:41 <Harold> Full presentation syntax       Abridged presentation syntax  Remark
16:01:41 <Harold> "foo:bar"^^rif:iri             <foo:bar>                     IETF's angular bracket notation
16:01:41 <Harold> purchase^^rif:local            purchase                      locality by default
16:01:41 <Harold> "a b c"^^xsd:string            "a b c"                       Full: quotes are part of ^ syntax
16:01:41 <Harold> "10"^^xsd:integer              10                            as in programming languages
16:01:42 <Harold> "1000000000"^^xsd:long         1000000000                    as in programming languages
16:01:44 <Harold> "3.14"^^xsd:decimal            3.14                          as in programming languages
16:01:46 <Harold>  . . .   
16:02:45 <GaryHallmark> how about X and Y instead of And(X Y)
16:03:11 <GaryHallmark> how about B if A instead of B :- A
16:03:26 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:03:37 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: IgorMozetic (4%), Sandro (4%), ChrisW (10%), MichaelKifer (77%)
16:03:53 <Harold> q+
16:04:14 <IgorMozetic> michael: a problem if there is a different syntaxt between defined language and examples
16:04:15 <csma> Gray, in PRD, it would be if A then B; That's why I believe that presentation syntaxes should be different in different dialects
16:05:08 <IgorMozetic> harold: proposes a shorthand (abridged) syntaxt, presentation syntax, and XML
16:05:11 <GaryHallmark> csma - then what is the presentation syntax of Core>
16:05:15 <Harold> The Abridged presentation syntax could be just a SHORTHAND for test cases.
16:05:55 <Harold> But let's not do it in this round. We cannot risk any delay for our Apr 15 and 17 deadlines!
16:06:02 <IgorMozetic> michael: doesn't object adding a shortcut (abridged) syntax to examples
16:06:20 <sandro> Chris: This is NOT for this publication round.    
16:06:41 <sandro> MichaelKifer: Let's think about this (presentation syntax issues) after the 16ths.
16:07:02 <csma> Gary, any, or both... the prez syntax is not normative, it is not interchanged; the XML is
16:08:18 <AxelPolleres> +1
16:08:19 <sandro> NONBINDING-PROPOSAL: Allow shortcuts in Presentation SYntax?
16:08:23 <sandro> +1
16:08:28 <Hassan> +1
16:08:30 <AxelPolleres> :-) please!
16:08:31 <IgorMozetic> all: let's try common shortcuts for the abridged presentatin syntax
16:08:33 <GaryHallmark> +1
16:08:35 <IgorMozetic> +1
16:08:49 <Harold> +1 (There could be an *additional* Appendix in BLD WD3)
16:09:15 <DavidHirtle> +1
16:09:48 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:09:48 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisW
16:09:50 <ChrisW> q?
16:09:53 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:09:53 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:09:56 <ChrisW> ack harold
16:10:02 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:10:02 <Zakim> agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:10:10 <IgorMozetic> +1
16:10:16 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:10:19 <Zakim> -Harold
16:10:19 <csma> ok
16:10:21 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:10:26 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:10:28 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:10:42 <ChrisW> Regrets: DaveReynolds PaulVincent JosDeBruijn
16:10:46 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:10:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +6928aabb,
16:10:49 <Zakim> ... csma
16:10:52 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:11:09 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
16:11:09 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:11:11 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:11:18 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:11:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, Mark_Proctor, csma
16:11:39 <ChrisW> zakim, drop Mark_Proctor
16:11:39 <Zakim> Mark_Proctor is being disconnected
16:11:41 <Zakim> -Mark_Proctor
16:19:02 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:19:04 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:19:05 <Zakim> -csma
16:19:06 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:19:07 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +6928aabb, csma
16:21:16 <csma> csma has left #rif
16:31:45 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rif