IRC log of bpwg on 2008-04-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:58:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-bpwg-irc
13:58:54 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:58:56 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:58:56 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:57 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:58:57 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 08 April 2008
13:59:42 [francois]
zakim, code?
13:59:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
13:59:45 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started
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+francois
14:00:08 [francois]
Chair: francois
14:00:17 [Martin1]
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14:01:09 [jo]
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14:01:23 [Zakim]
+MartinJ
14:01:26 [jo]
zakim, code?
14:01:29 [SeanP]
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14:01:31 [francois]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0009.html
14:01:33 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:01:35 [matt]
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14:03:07 [Zakim]
+jo
14:03:16 [francois]
Regrets: rob, bryan
14:03:29 [francois]
Regrets+ kemp
14:03:29 [Zakim]
+ +049211aaaa
14:03:49 [jo]
zakim, aaaa is heiko
14:03:49 [Zakim]
+heiko; got it
14:04:08 [hgerlach]
hgerlach has joined #bpwg
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+ +1.630.414.aabb
14:04:33 [hgerlach]
hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:04:45 [SeanP]
Zakim, aabb is me
14:04:45 [Zakim]
+SeanP; got it
14:04:47 [jo]
zakim, heiko is really hgerlach
14:04:47 [Zakim]
+hgerlach; got it
14:05:26 [francois]
Scribe: SeanP
14:05:29 [francois]
ScribeNick: SeanP
14:05:37 [francois]
Topic: Presentation of the draft
14:05:51 [SeanP]
Topic: Presentation of the draft
14:05:54 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080403 latest draft
14:06:14 [SeanP]
Francois: Had ed. meeting with Jo about draft.
14:06:43 [SeanP]
...didn't change any of the guidelines--just removed a couple of paragraphs and moved some things around.
14:06:54 [SeanP]
...think it is much clearer this way.
14:07:07 [SeanP]
...editorial notes were reworded to make easier to read.
14:07:18 [jo]
q+ to wonder if anyone had had the chance to read it?
14:07:21 [SeanP]
...any comments?
14:07:24 [francois]
ack jo
14:07:24 [Zakim]
jo, you wanted to wonder if anyone had had the chance to read it?
14:07:55 [SeanP]
Jo: How many people have had a chance to review this?
14:08:10 [SeanP]
I read it.
14:08:24 [Martin1]
I read it but not very long ago
14:08:58 [SeanP]
Heiko: What about editorial notes at the end?
14:09:33 [SeanP]
Francois: Notes are things we are working on, like POWDER.
14:09:35 [Magnus]
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14:09:53 [Magnus]
zakim, code?
14:09:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
14:10:16 [Zakim]
+Magnus
14:11:00 [SeanP]
Francois: I have a comment about section 3.2 that should be flagged as normative.
14:11:44 [SeanP]
...Jo had a comment that maybe we should remove the sections that say that the rest of the section is "normative", "informative".
14:12:03 [SeanP]
...I think we should keep the "normative", "informative" parts.
14:12:27 [Martin1]
q+
14:12:43 [francois]
ack Martin
14:12:50 [SeanP]
Jo: I think we should switch the requirements as normative.
14:13:03 [SeanP]
Martin: What does it mean that requirements are normative?
14:14:01 [SeanP]
Jo: Good point. If we were to do away with 3.1 and put that into 3.2 it is more a high level description of what proxies must do.
14:14:14 [SeanP]
...Whatever we call it, I think 3.2 works as a normative section.
14:15:22 [SeanP]
Jo: Why don't we call it high level feature set or something like that.
14:15:58 [SeanP]
Martin: I think it would be enough to change 3.2 and call it something other than requirements.
14:16:27 [SeanP]
Jo: I am proposing that we remove requirements from this document altogether since requirements are already in the Landscape document.
14:17:09 [SeanP]
Francois: Probably doesn't need to be done right now,however.
14:17:20 [SeanP]
...why don't we do that but not today.
14:17:52 [SeanP]
...we'll state the requirements in a more formal way and put that into 3.2.
14:18:17 [francois]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: for section 3, rewrite 3.1 in a normative way and fusion it with 3.2. Requirements are listed in CT-landscape doc
14:18:32 [Martin1]
+1
14:18:39 [SeanP]
+1
14:18:52 [francois]
RESOLUTION: for section 3, rewrite 3.1 in a normative way and fusion it with 3.2. Requirements are listed in CT-landscape doc
14:19:21 [SeanP]
Francois: Anyone have any objection to publishing the document as it stands as a FPWD?
14:19:31 [francois]
q?
14:19:46 [francois]
Topic: About the title
14:20:14 [SeanP]
Francois: Dom suggested that we should change the title to reference "mobile"
14:20:37 [SeanP]
...although there are no parts of the document that are specific to mobile.
14:21:04 [hgerlach]
q+
14:21:08 [francois]
ack hgerlach
14:21:10 [SeanP]
...will probably get more exposure to the mobile communitiy if we include a reference to mobile in the titile.
14:21:29 [SeanP]
Heiko: You are correct that we should add "mobile".
14:22:01 [SeanP]
...also we are not talking about CT, but requirements for the environment when CT is done
14:22:45 [SeanP]
Francois: I think if we add something like "prerequisites" it will lessen the impact of the doc.
14:23:02 [SeanP]
Heiko: We're not really talking about CT though.
14:23:22 [jo]
q+ to say the title should remain Content Transformation guidelines possibly with the addition of some mobile words
14:23:26 [francois]
ack jo
14:23:26 [Zakim]
jo, you wanted to say the title should remain Content Transformation guidelines possibly with the addition of some mobile words
14:23:29 [SeanP]
Francois: I would prefer to stick with CT in the title.
14:23:47 [SeanP]
Jo: I think it should be named CT Guidelines...
14:24:13 [SeanP]
...whether we should include mobile in the title--the guidelines are not specifically mobile.
14:24:37 [SeanP]
...I think "mobile" is unnecessarily restrictive of scope.
14:24:50 [SeanP]
q+
14:25:24 [francois]
ack SeanP
14:25:36 [SeanP]
Francois: We are the "mobile" BPWG, so that should be good enough.
14:27:21 [francois]
Who wants to add a ref to "Mobile"?
14:27:28 [SeanP]
SeanP: Don't think it is necessary to change the title since it is from the "mobile" BPWG
14:27:54 [dom]
[but that won't be visible to most people before they actually start to read the document, FWIW]
14:28:04 [SeanP]
Francois: I actually was saying the opposite that someone from the public wouldn't necessarily know that it was from a mobile group.
14:28:35 [francois]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: title stays "Content Transformation Guidelines"
14:28:51 [SeanP]
+1
14:28:55 [Martin1]
+1
14:29:07 [jo]
+1
14:29:07 [Magnus]
+1
14:29:19 [francois]
RESOLUTION: title stays "Content Transformation Guidelines"
14:29:27 [francois]
Topic: About the abstract
14:29:48 [SeanP]
Francois: It was suggested that we come up with something less obsure for the abstract.
14:30:21 [SeanP]
...I tend to agree that the abstract may not be really clear.
14:30:37 [francois]
This document provides guidance for content providers and content
14:30:37 [francois]
transformation proxies on how they can better work together to deliver
14:30:37 [francois]
Web content to mobile devices.
14:30:40 [SeanP]
...Should we change it to something like what Dom proposed?
14:30:52 [francois]
q?
14:31:51 [SeanP]
q+
14:32:00 [francois]
ack SeanP
14:32:06 [jo]
How about: This document provides guidance to content transformation proxies and content providers as to how inter work .
14:32:32 [jo]
This document provides guidance to content transformation proxies and content providers as to how inter work when delivering Web content.
14:33:15 [SeanP]
SeanP: Dom's text looks good to me--we could use "mobile devices" as an example and not restrict it to mobile.
14:33:27 [hgerlach]
+1
14:33:41 [francois]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: abstract text "This document provides guidance to content transformation proxies and content providers as to how inter work when delivering Web content"
14:35:28 [SeanP]
Heiko: The document should mention the past and the benefits for both sides.
14:35:54 [SeanP]
...should include a sentence to highlight that.
14:36:51 [SeanP]
Jo: don't like including "better" since it anchors the doc to a point in time.
14:37:20 [SeanP]
Heiko: How about calling it "Interworking guidelines for content transformation proxies"?
14:37:29 [SeanP]
Francois: Seems less clear.
14:37:51 [DKA]
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14:38:41 [SeanP]
Jo: Instead of spending a lot of time on this, why don't I try to come up with something that is more explicable.
14:39:49 [SeanP]
I'm OK with the proposed abstract text as well.
14:42:17 [francois]
RESOLUTION: abstract text "This document provides guidance to content transformation proxies and content providers as to how inter work when delivering Web content"
14:42:21 [SeanP]
Francois: We'll use the proposed text for the time being and maybe fix it later.
14:43:09 [SeanP]
Jo: We've got two editorial comments that we want to turn into actual notes.
14:43:12 [francois]
Topic: Control by Administrative or Other Arrangements (§3.2.3)
14:43:18 [francois]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Apr/0016.html
14:44:25 [chaals]
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14:44:31 [SeanP]
Francois: In 3.2.3 there is an editorial note that we may want to change to an actual note (with some next text that will be pasted in momentarily).
14:44:33 [chaals]
francois?
14:44:43 [jo]
Allow and disallow lists generally cause intractable problems for content providers since there is no mechanism for content providers to establish which lists they should be on, nor any generic mechanism though which they can check or change their status. There is also no generic vocabulary for transformation options other than "on" and "off", which can more effectively be communicated using...
14:44:45 [jo]
Note:
14:44:46 [jo]
...the cache-control: no-transform option.
14:45:37 [chaals]
s/francois?//
14:46:59 [SeanP]
Francois: OK with the first sentence--I don't see the connection with the vocabulary for the transformation options.
14:47:34 [SeanP]
Jo: The point is that maintaining lists is a simplistic model for what people actually do.
14:48:21 [SeanP]
...my assumption is that it is usually more than just yes and no.
14:49:15 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Change current editorial note to say - Note: Allow and disallow lists generally cause intractable problems for content providers since there is no mechanism for them to establish which lists they should be on, nor any generic mechanism though which they can check or change their status.
14:49:23 [francois]
+1
14:49:48 [francois]
RESOLUTION: Change current editorial note to say - Note: Allow and disallow lists generally cause intractable problems for content providers since there is no mechanism for them to establish which lists they should be on, nor any generic mechanism though which they can check or change their status.
14:49:56 [francois]
Topic: Proxy decision to transform (§4.1.2)
14:50:54 [SeanP]
Francois: Note on idempotency of GET requests.
14:51:11 [SeanP]
Jo: Dom mentioned that my definition for idempotent was wrong.
14:51:36 [SeanP]
Francois: Can change "i.e." to "and".
14:52:14 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: in note on idempotent change i.e. to and and change must to is often
14:52:18 [SeanP]
Jo: Rob had the point about following a link from email.
14:52:44 [francois]
RESOLUTION: in note on idempotent change i.e. to and and change must to is often
14:53:30 [SeanP]
Francois: Should we replace the ASCII art with DOM's image?
14:53:48 [SeanP]
Jo: I may not use DOM's picture, but I'll replace that ASCII art.
14:54:05 [SeanP]
Francois: Everybody OK with publishing as FPWD?
14:54:19 [SeanP]
...will present to the entire working group.
14:54:24 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Request WG to ask for transition of CT Guidelines to FPWG
14:54:40 [francois]
RESOLUTION: Request WG to ask for transition of CT Guidelines to FPWG
14:54:50 [SeanP]
...will probably publish at the beginning of next week.
14:54:58 [jo]
s/FPWG/FPWD/g
14:55:28 [SeanP]
Heiko: Should we run it by some CT vendors?
14:55:58 [SeanP]
Francois: We have some CT vendors as part of the WG and task force.
14:56:44 [SeanP]
Jo: I think we should do some outreach on this. The purpose of the FPWD is to get more people to read it.
14:57:15 [SeanP]
Jo: What would people think about having a workshop on this to get some industry support.
14:57:29 [Magnus]
q+
14:57:35 [Martin1]
q+
14:57:43 [francois]
ack Magnus
14:57:55 [francois]
ack Martin1
14:57:59 [francois]
ack Martin
14:58:28 [SeanP]
Magnus: I'll make sure our design team is aware of this.
14:59:01 [SeanP]
Martin: I think with workshop is a good idea although I can't commit to it yet.
14:59:38 [SeanP]
Jo: I think it would be a good idea for participants on this call to talk to their organizations about this.
14:59:49 [SeanP]
...I think we should try to do something fairly soon.
15:00:36 [jo]
ACTION: Daoust to work with jo to figure out the details of a workshop on Content Transformation
15:00:36 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-730 - Work with jo to figure out the details of a workshop on Content Transformation [on François Daoust - due 2008-04-15].
15:01:07 [Zakim]
-hgerlach
15:01:09 [jo]
ACTION: jo to enact changes resolved in this meeting
15:01:09 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-731 - Enact changes resolved in this meeting [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-04-15].
15:01:10 [Zakim]
-MartinJ
15:01:12 [Zakim]
-Magnus
15:01:13 [Magnus]
bye bye
15:01:14 [hgerlach]
cheers
15:01:15 [Zakim]
-jo
15:01:15 [SeanP]
Francois: Remember to do your actions!
15:01:17 [Martin1]
Martin1 has left #bpwg
15:01:19 [Zakim]
-francois
15:01:21 [Zakim]
-SeanP
15:01:23 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended
15:01:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were francois, MartinJ, jo, +049211aaaa, +1.630.414.aabb, SeanP, hgerlach, Magnus
15:02:14 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:06:02 [chaals]
e.g. WWW/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/
15:07:15 [francois]
RRSAgent, bye
15:07:15 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-bpwg-actions.rdf :
15:07:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Daoust to work with jo to figure out the details of a workshop on Content Transformation [1]
15:07:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-bpwg-irc#T15-00-36
15:07:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jo to enact changes resolved in this meeting [2]
15:07:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/08-bpwg-irc#T15-01-09