IRC log of html-wg on 2008-04-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:58:34 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:58:36 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be HTML
15:58:36 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:37 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
15:58:37 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 03 April 2008
15:58:49 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, code?
15:58:49 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
15:58:54 [Lachy]
Lachy has joined #html-wg
15:59:20 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
15:59:27 [Zakim]
15:59:36 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
15:59:36 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
15:59:46 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, +[ is me
15:59:46 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '+['
16:00:00 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:00:00 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
16:00:18 [Zakim]
+ +049251280aaaa
16:00:20 [Zakim]
16:00:30 [Julian]
Zakim, +049251280aaaa is me
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+Julian; got it
16:00:30 [DanC]
agenda + Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting
16:00:33 [anne]
My heating is curretnly being fixed so I rather not dial in until either he leaves or something *really* important comes up. My apologies.
16:00:44 [anne]
16:00:47 [DanC]
got it, anne
16:00:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.218.340.aabb
16:01:03 [Zakim]
16:01:04 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, +1.218.340.aabb, ??P5
16:01:13 [DanC]
Zakim, aabb is Laura
16:01:13 [Zakim]
+Laura; got it
16:01:15 [Lachy]
Lachy has joined #html-wg
16:01:40 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P5 JoshueO
16:01:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P5 JoshueO', DanC
16:01:44 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P5 is JoshueO
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+JoshueO; got it
16:01:55 [DanC]
oedipus, are you around?
16:01:57 [Zakim]
16:02:07 [DanC]
16:02:10 [DanC]
it's in the topic too
16:02:21 [DanC]
I haven't really done as much prep as I'd like
16:02:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.734.995.aacc
16:03:09 [DanC]
Zakim, aacc is Patrick
16:03:09 [Zakim]
+Patrick; got it
16:03:24 [DanC]
agenda + ISSUE-14 aria-role
16:03:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.265.aadd
16:04:10 [DanC]
agenda + ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
16:04:43 [DanC]
Zakim, aadd is Robert_Gonia
16:04:43 [Zakim]
+Robert_Gonia; got it
16:04:49 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia
16:05:14 [shepazu]
Zakim, call doug-work
16:05:14 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
16:05:15 [DanC]
agenda + ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax
16:05:15 [Zakim]
16:05:20 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
16:05:20 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:20 [PIon]
PIon has joined #html-wg
16:05:21 [Zakim]
1. Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting [from DanC]
16:05:23 [Zakim]
2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
16:05:24 [Zakim]
3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
16:05:25 [Zakim]
4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
16:06:15 [DanC]
agenda + offline-applications-sql
16:06:28 [PIon]
PIon has joined #html-wg
16:06:29 [DanC]
16:06:29 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-48 -- Dan Connolly to start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements -- due 2008-03-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:06:29 [trackbot-ng]
16:06:53 [DanC]
DanC: anybody mind if I withdraw?
16:06:59 [DanC]
close action-48
16:06:59 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-48 Start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements closed
16:07:31 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:07:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia, Doug
16:07:59 [DanC]
agenda + extensibility point, distributed extensibility
16:08:15 [DanC]
agenda + forms TF status
16:08:34 [DanC]
agenda + authoring guide
16:09:26 [DanC]
agenda + ISSUE-31 missing-alt
16:09:53 [Steve_f]
Steve_f has joined #html-wg
16:10:21 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
16:10:21 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:10:22 [Zakim]
1. Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting [from DanC]
16:10:24 [Zakim]
2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
16:10:25 [Zakim]
3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
16:10:26 [Zakim]
4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
16:10:28 [Zakim]
5. offline-applications-sql [from DanC]
16:10:29 [Zakim]
6. extensibility point, distributed extensibility [from DanC]
16:10:30 [Zakim]
7. forms TF status [from DanC]
16:10:30 [Zakim]
8. authoring guide [from DanC]
16:10:32 [Zakim]
9. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
16:10:46 [MikeSmith]
Scribenick: MikeSmith
16:10:53 [MikeSmith]
Scribe: MikeSmith
16:11:07 [MikeSmith]
Chair: DanC
16:11:14 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:11:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:11:46 [DanC]
next meeting should be 4p PT Thu 10 Apr, ChrisW to chair
16:11:51 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
16:11:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting" taken up [from DanC]
16:11:52 [sampablokuper]
sampablokuper has joined #html-wg
16:11:59 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 1
16:11:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting, closed
16:12:00 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:12:01 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
16:12:02 [Zakim]
2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
16:12:02 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:12:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:12:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ISSUE-14 aria-role" taken up [from DanC]
16:12:05 [Steve_f]
hi Dan, i am unable to attend as i have to go and pick up my daughter from nursery at this time, any chance of making it later or earlier next week +/- 1hour?
16:12:15 [DanC]
you can ask chrisw, Steve
16:12:28 [DanC]
16:12:29 [oedipus]
GJR: PF convened a special meeting at a special time to accomodate participation by HTML WG members in discussion of aria-role in HTML5 on 25 march 2008 but no one save PF people turned up -- SimonP valiantly tried to join the call, but could not dial in for some technological reason and was there on IRC
16:12:37 [MikeSmith]
16:12:37 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-14 -- Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5 -- OPEN
16:12:37 [trackbot-ng]
16:13:07 [Steve_f]
ok no problem
16:13:08 [DanC]
pointer to records of that meeting, pls?
16:13:24 [DanC]
or meeting call?
16:13:28 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we convened a special meeting to help others to attend, but nobody other than PF people decided to join
16:14:06 [DanC]
16:14:18 [MikeSmith]
... we have meeting minutes but they are member-only
16:14:31 [DanC]
16:14:31 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-8 -- Michael Cooper to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
16:14:31 [trackbot-ng]
16:14:44 [MikeSmith]
... we have not been about to get a critical mass of people from outside PF to join in the discussion
16:14:49 [DanC]
close action-8
16:14:49 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-8 Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute closed
16:14:58 [Zakim]
16:15:03 [MikeSmith]
s/about to/able to/
16:15:04 [ChrisWilson]
Zakim, Microsoft is me
16:15:04 [Zakim]
+ChrisWilson; got it
16:15:06 [DanC]
close ACTION-9
16:15:06 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-9 Discuss UML tools with DanC closed
16:15:11 [oedipus]
member-confidential record:
16:15:21 [DanC]
16:15:21 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests using ARIA -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
16:15:21 [trackbot-ng]
16:16:08 [Steve_f]
Dan - can you note that action 54 is in progress still, we are waiting on response from PF WG on use of normative statements.
16:16:47 [DanC]
16:16:47 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-04-10 -- OPEN
16:16:47 [trackbot-ng]
16:16:56 [DanC]
Steve_f, we're not there just now
16:17:02 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we don't have the level of collaboration with the HTML WG that we would like
16:17:08 [DanC]
re tests... al gilman gave me
16:17:30 [Steve_f]
16:17:35 [oedipus]
Paciello Groups' ARIA tests:
16:17:38 [gsnedders]
gsnedders has joined #html-wg
16:18:47 [MikeSmith]
oedipus - we will neither add not [remove] any roles at this point
16:18:59 [MikeSmith]
s/add not/add nor/
16:19:49 [MikeSmith]
oedipus - navigation and landmark roles [two types]
16:20:00 [DanC]
DanC: do the Paciello Groups' ARIA tests enuerate the roles?
16:20:10 [MikeSmith]
... we doing a comprehensive check to see that all the states are explicitly spelled out
16:20:27 [MikeSmith]
DanC : It would help me to see some tests
16:20:46 [MikeSmith]
16:20:54 [DanC]
I read
16:21:10 [DanC]
Text last updated: 2008-03-31 by Henri Sivonen
16:21:14 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
16:21:14 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
16:21:15 [Cathead]
Cathead has joined #html-wg
16:21:35 [Cathead]
Cathead is joshue
16:21:39 [oedipus]
Public PF comments list:
16:21:51 [MikeSmith]
DanC : has anybody looked at Henri's posting?
16:23:05 [MikeSmith]
DanC : oedipus, can you look at Henri's doc now?
16:23:56 [MikeSmith]
PIon : appears to have a list of roles that are not supported
16:24:08 [anne]
Henri's ARIA post made sense to me. I haven't been deeply involved in ARIA semantics though.
16:24:23 [anne]
I was mostly concerned with ARIA syntax and that seems to be a resolved thingie now.
16:24:30 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
16:24:30 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:25:19 [DanC]
stuff from cooper to the TAG ->
16:25:50 [Lionheart]
Lionheart has left #html-wg
16:25:52 [MikeSmith]
DanC : MichaelCooper sent that yesterday
16:26:13 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:26:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia, Doug, ChrisWilson
16:26:25 [MikeSmith]
... Noah Mendelsohn replied
16:26:40 [MikeSmith]
DanC : I'm trying to find out how close we are to closing this issue
16:26:57 [MikeSmith]
... my goal it to determine what test cases we have
16:27:34 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : our original proposal was that we preferred native features in HTML over adding them using ARIA
16:28:08 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : I think there is some basic understanding of what we're trying to do with ARIA
16:28:37 [shepazu]
16:29:36 [adele]
adele has joined #html-wg
16:29:41 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : [mention of example of math]
16:30:06 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : ARIA 1.0 is about repairing what we have today
16:31:03 [DanC]
ack shepazu
16:31:11 [MikeSmith]
... but the eventual migration is that we hope that in future, many of these ARIA roles and landmarks will become a native part of the HTML markup language
16:31:35 [MikeSmith]
shepazu : I think we can cover background on ARIA outside of this telcon
16:32:15 [MikeSmith]
... we can have a separate call about this perhaps
16:33:03 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : [mentions posting from jgraham as indicating that ARIA roadmap/plans might not be well understood by all]
16:33:28 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : there are tests on the ESW wiki
16:33:56 [MikeSmith]
shepazu : this stuff is actually working in Firefox..
16:34:26 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we can't provide tests for HTML5 until we have agreement with the HTML WG about how to integrate it
16:34:42 [PIon]
Is there an example of the use of a "math" role in the ARIA specification? Does it specify the informative additional markup to be used?
16:35:39 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : nobody has come to the PF working group with their tests
16:36:14 [MikeSmith]
shepazu : the tests can be proposal-level stuff
16:36:23 [MikeSmith]
... the group can then take a look at those
16:36:35 [MikeSmith]
... you don't have to spec out everything first
16:36:46 [MikeSmith]
DanC : that would help me out a lot
16:37:02 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : that would not be satisfactory
16:37:15 [zcorpan]
i'm planning to write some aria-in-html5 tests/demos soonish, btw
16:37:42 [MikeSmith]
DanC : a test is a file written by somebody who as a notion of what the expected results are
16:38:22 [anne]
Actually, I often start out by writing a test where I'm not quite sure what the expected results are...
16:38:30 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we want to take what we've learned and bring it to the HTML5 WG and have it integrated into HTML5
16:38:33 [zcorpan]
a test without a pass condition is a demo
16:38:44 [zcorpan]
demos are still good
16:38:47 [DanC]
right, I like to have pass conditions too
16:38:56 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : ARIA is on LC-track
16:39:07 [anne]
(Well, eventually I know and they'll have a pass condition, but not initially.)
16:40:03 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we are looking for more input from zcorpan, hsivonen, others .. need to them to come to the PF group to speak with us
16:40:16 [MikeSmith]
... meeting in the public space
16:40:30 [MikeSmith]
... we did something similar with math
16:41:12 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we have e-mail discussions but communication breaks down
16:41:30 [MikeSmith]
... [having a telcon discussion would help with that issue]
16:41:57 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : we want things like ARIA overlays to not be necessary in HTML5 [UAs]
16:42:16 [MikeSmith]
oedipus : targets for current ARIA is legacy browsers
16:42:47 [robertgonia]
robertgonia has joined #html-wg
16:42:49 [MikeSmith]
... for 1.0 we are restricted by current implementations
16:42:59 [DanC]
(is the "no UA changes required" constraint on ARIA 1.0 documented?)
16:43:02 [oedipus]
GJR: current and legacy browsers
16:44:08 [MikeSmith]
shepazu : so what you want to discuss is ARIA 1.1 + HTML5
16:44:25 [Cathead]
The way current AT works is ARIA not more dependent on how the browser deals with ARIA code rather than the AT itself?
16:44:30 [MikeSmith]
DanC : so, OK, I'm hearing that the communication is not going well
16:44:39 [DanC]
ack josh
16:44:40 [MikeSmith]
16:45:53 [DanC]
close ACTION-11
16:45:57 [DanC]
close ACTION-11
16:45:57 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-11 Show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility closed
16:46:18 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
16:46:18 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
16:46:20 [Zakim]
2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
16:46:22 [Zakim]
3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
16:46:23 [Zakim]
4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
16:46:24 [Zakim]
5. offline-applications-sql [from DanC]
16:46:25 [Zakim]
6. extensibility point, distributed extensibility [from DanC]
16:46:26 [Zakim]
7. forms TF status [from DanC]
16:46:26 [Zakim]
8. authoring guide [from DanC]
16:46:27 [Zakim]
9. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
16:46:45 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 2
16:46:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2, ISSUE-14 aria-role, closed
16:46:46 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:46:47 [Zakim]
3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
16:47:12 [MikeSmith]
ChrisWilson : I'll be on vacation next week and the following week
16:47:32 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
16:47:32 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml" taken up [from DanC]
16:47:45 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:47:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:47:48 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:47:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia, Doug, ChrisWilson
16:48:19 [DanC]
16:48:31 [DanC]
16:49:16 [sampablokuper]
I see that action-29 isn't on today's agenda. Has it fallen off the radar, or is it still being discussed internally?
16:49:40 [MikeSmith]
DanC : issue-37.. SVG/MathML should be a requirements issue, not a spec issue
16:49:50 [MikeSmith]
16:49:50 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-05-01 -- OPEN
16:49:50 [trackbot-ng]
16:50:07 [MikeSmith]
sampablokuper : still being discussed
16:50:21 [sampablokuper]
16:50:50 [Zakim]
16:50:51 [MikeSmith]
ChrisWilson : I think integrating other schema into HTML is a good thing, if for no other reason that it allows us to keep our own schema more targeted
16:50:59 [DanC]
q+ to note a possible broader issue that svg/mathml
16:51:13 [MikeSmith]
... we have had a mechanism in IE for doing something like this for some time now
16:51:23 [MikeSmith]
shepazu : curious about IE's xml element
16:51:23 [DanC]
(pointer to ext element proposal, please)
16:51:36 [MikeSmith]
... my proposal is for a "point of extensibility"
16:51:41 [ChrisWilson]
q+ to respond to shepazu's xml element comment
16:52:03 [shepazu]
16:52:06 [MikeSmith]
... I think the HTML WG should not attempt to change the semantics or syntax of other languages
16:52:29 [MikeSmith]
PIon : I'm here because I think the matter is a spec issue
16:52:40 [MikeSmith]
... math should be integrated for sure
16:53:12 [DanC]
q+ to ask patrick about how long it's likely to take to settle on a good design, and explore more refined mathml/html issues
16:53:19 [MikeSmith]
... the Math WG is very willing to discuss this
16:53:41 [MikeSmith]
... and the last week or show has shown some very useful discussion about this
16:55:01 [MikeSmith]
... I think you have a good chance by working with some of the people who've been trying to get this done now for years
16:55:15 [shepazu]
16:55:19 [MikeSmith]
... and we are certainly willing to discuss this
16:55:48 [MikeSmith]
Julian : I agree the extensibility question is general is one of the must interesting things that HTML5 should try to solve
16:56:52 [DanC]
ack danc
16:56:52 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note a possible broader issue that svg/mathml and to ask patrick about how long it's likely to take to settle on a good design, and explore more refined
16:56:55 [Zakim]
... mathml/html issues
16:57:48 [MikeSmith]
DanC : I sense a lack of consensus about whether there is a need for a general extensibility in HTML
16:58:03 [MikeSmith]
shepazu : my proposal is not for a general
16:58:24 [MikeSmith]
... completely "generic" extensibility mechanism
16:58:31 [PIon]
q If there's a more general solution then it should encompass SVG and MathML as candidates.
16:59:26 [MikeSmith]
DanC : the design space around this looks big
16:59:49 [MikeSmith]
DanC : PIon, how long should this discussion take?
17:00:19 [MikeSmith]
PIon : you can't expect consensus to emerge in 3 weeks, but perhaps in 3 months
17:00:42 [ChrisWilson]
My point is that interoperability is important 1
17:00:47 [ChrisWilson]
17:00:48 [MikeSmith]
... from our side, we are working on MathML 3.0, and we are still willing to make changes
17:00:50 [DanC]
17:01:22 [MikeSmith]
... so it desirable to try to get this nailed down pretty early, while both groups are still in a position to make changes
17:01:56 [DanC]
ack ChrisWilson
17:01:56 [Zakim]
ChrisWilson, you wanted to respond to shepazu's xml element comment
17:02:43 [anne]
Do we have 90min telcons? If so, I'll dial in
17:02:59 [DanC]
q+ to ask what Patrick thinks about the MathML community accepting the design constraints of HTML legacy
17:03:03 [MikeSmith]
ChrisWilson : shepazu, you were asking about the idea of how the extensibility point idea would [work with/map to] the IE xml element
17:03:15 [anne]
(the agenda doesn't say)
17:03:15 [MikeSmith]
anne - we will be on for another 30 minutes, year
17:03:22 [MikeSmith]
17:03:34 [anne]
Zakim, passcode?
17:03:34 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
17:03:45 [MikeSmith]
ChrisWilson : it ends up in _a_ tree, but not _the_ tree
17:04:09 [MikeSmith]
ChrisWilson : there are challenges about the programming model
17:04:11 [Julian]
17:04:26 [MikeSmith]
... stylesheets don't work across the boundary
17:04:38 [MikeSmith]
... for example
17:04:52 [Zakim]
17:04:57 [Cathead]
For the record issue 32 (missing alt) is currently being worked on my myself, Laura C, Steve F and Gez Lemon.
17:05:04 [anne]
Zakim, ??P10 is anne
17:05:04 [Zakim]
+anne; got it
17:05:09 [MikeSmith]
ChrisWilson : you need to remember that the parser does some specific things today
17:05:32 [MikeSmith]
... e.g. our parser fires off "speculative image downloads"
17:05:44 [MikeSmith]
... perception of performance would suffer
17:06:33 [DanC]
ACTION: ChrisWilson respond to extensibility discussion
17:06:33 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-57 - Respond to extensibility discussion [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-04-10].
17:06:38 [DanC]
ack shepazu
17:07:24 [Thezilch]
Thezilch has joined #html-wg
17:07:25 [Julian]
17:09:13 [DanC]
DS: among those participating in the thread, only hickson seems opposed to using one of <ext-like> or <svg>/<mathml>.
17:09:22 [DanC]
Anne: how many browser builders have participated?
17:09:25 [DanC]
DS: mjs
17:09:44 [MikeSmith]
anne : [notes that some important stakeholders have not contributed to the discussion thus far, so perhaps it is premature to draw conclusions from any perceived current consensus]
17:10:06 [anne]
I can't find Maciej's e-mail in the list
17:10:15 [DanC]
shepazu, can you help anne find it?
17:10:20 [DanC]
17:10:28 [anne]
17:10:32 [MikeSmith]
Julian : lots of people said they don't want the HTML parser to get further complicated by special-casing for large numbers of new elements
17:11:00 [shepazu]
17:11:12 [shepazu]
it wasn't on the list, it was on IRC
17:11:15 [Laura]
Cathead, Missing alt is action 54, issue 31
17:12:05 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:12:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
17:12:18 [MikeSmith]
DanC : meeting adjourned
17:12:21 [Zakim]
17:12:21 [Cathead]
17:12:23 [Zakim]
17:12:24 [Zakim]
17:12:28 [Cathead]
17:12:34 [Zakim]
17:12:36 [Cathead]
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17:12:39 [Zakim]
17:12:40 [DanC]
you're welcome to stay and use the bridge, IRC bots, etc.
17:12:40 [Zakim]
17:12:46 [Zakim]
17:12:54 [anne]
shepazu, more specific pointer?
17:12:55 [Zakim]
17:13:08 [anne]
oedipus :)
17:13:23 [Zakim]
17:13:32 [anne]
Julian, where did people say that?
17:13:42 [anne]
(I don't necessarily disagree though :))
17:13:45 [DanC]
I'm 13 minutes late for another teleconference, so I proposed to adjourn the meeting; the scribe concurred, and nobody volunteered to take the scribe's place.
17:13:45 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who was here?
17:13:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
17:14:05 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who was on the call?
17:14:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
17:14:10 [DanC]
I let people know they were welcome to stay on the phone bridge, as long as they didn't expect help from a chair/scribe
17:14:24 [Julian]
Anne: don't have a pointer; but it's certainly what I felt most particpants did agree on.
17:14:36 [PIon]
Can someone perhaps point to a plausible scenario discussed where a single ext-point would allow parsing of different vocabularies without just handing off to different parsers?
17:15:24 [DanC]
PIon, does your question presume that using an XML parser for the whole document is implausible?
17:16:11 [PatrickDFIon]
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17:16:17 [anne]
PIon, if the ext-point would have slightly different tree building rules that would be possible
17:16:40 [anne]
DanC, well, in that case you'd just use text/xml :)
17:16:56 [DanC]
no, I wouldn't
17:17:01 [adele]
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17:17:03 [DanC]
17:17:53 [PatrickDFIon]
Sorry, I got dumped from IRC; I am temporarily back. I wondered if the ext point were just a tunnel to alternate worlds what the difference from a simple form of namespacing was?
17:18:29 [Zakim]
17:18:30 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:18:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were MikeSmith, DanC, Julian, +1.218.340.aabb, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.734.995.aacc, Patrick, +1.703.265.aadd, Robert_Gonia, Doug, ChrisWilson, anne
17:19:33 [Julian]
Patrick: I think it would be a simple form of namespacing. So that would be good.
17:20:26 [anne]
DanC, ok fair enough, I guess my point is that text/html basic parsing rules can't really be changed. So that if we extend them somehow we need to do something "special".
17:21:08 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:21:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
17:23:14 [PatrickDFIon]
DanC, I didn't reply to your first question becasue that was whenI got dumped. I can see a plausible XML parse of a whole document as a psoibility. However, the HTML5 context is apparently intended to avoid exactly that sort of thing, which is dissed as overly rigorous (and is for many puposes).
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17:24:02 [DanC]
"overly rigiorous" is part of it; a small part, I think... the main constraint is what deployed code does with various syntaxes
17:24:21 [PatrickDFIon]
17:26:14 [PatrickDFIon]
Yes, there's an important rich, and well worth retaining, legacy context. Part of the problem with the egacy corpus in other contexts can be that it is so large that parts of it are incontradiction with each other. That seems to be true for Web pages.
17:26:38 [PatrickDFIon]
17:28:40 [Julian]
How much pressure would be on extensibility-in-HTML5, if that certain important UA would support XHTML today?
17:29:30 [anne]
Depends on how much authors would actually start doing XHTML properly.
17:30:19 [anne]
Given that Philip is still able to poke holes in software of expert XHTML authors I'm not quite convinced the world is ready for it.
17:30:21 [shepazu]
if IE started supporting XHTML, that seems like a very real scenario
17:30:28 [Julian]
I would switch to XHTML if I could; and thus I would be less worried about HTML's lack of extensibility.
17:31:25 [Julian]
"self-appointed" XHTML experts? :-)
17:32:00 [Julian]
I mean, a real expert will use the proper tools that what he publishes indeed parses.
17:32:09 [PatrickDFIon]
And that could depend partly on whether the tools they were offered for input of penalty copy, such as math, were attractive and produced spec-true XHTML (and specialist vocabularies). So that would suggest spec-writers need to do a better job too.
17:32:19 [Julian]
Note that I'm not talking about *validity* here, only well-formedness.
17:32:26 [anne]
So am I
17:33:27 [Philip]
As far as I can remember, I haven't yet found an online XML-outputting system that accepts user input and can't be made to produce ill-formed content
17:33:29 [anne]
Julian, I don't think they claim to be experts by the way
17:34:52 [Julian]
Philip: well; it's not hard to do it; you just need to use a proper XML serializer for output.
17:35:07 [Julian]
Philip: dunno why so many people do not ret it right.
17:35:13 [Julian]
17:35:30 [PatrickDFIon]
The choke point appears to be when the hopefully well-formed source has to be rendered in some way. Strict specs are apparently not as easy to implement as ones where there is room for interpretation.
17:35:34 [Philip]
Julian: It seems XML serialisers don't guarantee well-formed output
17:35:47 [Julian]
Philip: name one.
17:36:20 [Julian]
Philip: I believe you, and I had to write my own a few years ago; I just want to see an example.
17:36:41 [Philip]
17:36:57 [anne]
PatrickDFIon, yeah, implementing XML actually requires a bunch of additional checks that you wouldn't have to make in a simpler tokenizer that did the same thing. (Ignoring the multifail internal subset :) )
17:38:20 [Philip] - seems to be fixed now
17:38:45 [Philip]
( still fails, though)
17:39:31 [Julian]
Philip: that's one of those things I test first.
17:39:54 [Julian]
Next are illegal comment character sequences and so on...
17:40:03 [PatrickDFIon]
Anne: But it isn't it part of the tool-builder's duty to take care with machinery of the sorts of mechanical details that people find overloading? And yes, internal subsets don't seem to work if you try them (which I haven't done much).
17:41:05 [Julian]
17:42:24 [Philip] has pointers to various examples of everyone getting it wrong
17:43:38 [anne]
PatrickDFIon, I guess the lesson is that they don't
17:43:45 [Philip]
I agree it seems like it should be easy to get right - the evidence is just that people actually don't get it right
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17:44:19 [Julian]
But how many would get it right once they served what they serve with an XML MIME type?
17:44:20 [anne]
Yeah, it's safer to assume that people are not perfect and build from there :)
17:44:45 [anne]
Julian, those are sites with an XML MIME type :)
17:44:54 [PatrickDFIon]
It is puzzling why programmers will put out spec-contradicting comment sequences happily in languages they don't understand while they would sneer at bad comments in the source code that puts them out. This is because the one renderer that the page was tried on worked fine with the bad comment convention, perhaps. But I spend my time making mistakes to learn, so cannot complain really.
17:45:05 [Philip]
Julian: These are all cases where people are serving as application/xhtml+xml, and they produce (or did, before being fixed) the YSoD in Firefox
17:45:24 [Julian]
oh well
17:45:56 [Philip]
Computers are hard :-)
17:46:16 [Julian]
Philip: interesting. So do you have statistics about how many got fixed?
17:46:56 [Philip]
Julian: I haven't tried following up with any of them
17:47:15 [Philip]
(and I never actually reported the bugs in the first place, because I don't care enough to do so)
17:48:39 [Philip]
(The "bugs are obvious and will be fixed as soon as somebody encounters them" thing fails when the person who encounters them is too lazy :-) )
17:49:01 [Julian]
Anyway... So we see that it's trivial to extend an XML-based syntax, but it seems to be incredible hard to do so with HTML. So may take-away from this is that a simplified parsing model that works without hardwired knowledge of the grammar (DTD) indeed has its advantages.
17:49:41 [gsnedders]
If only we could start from scratch :P
17:50:41 [Julian]
BTW: I just tried one of these in IE, and apparently it switches the MIME type based on the User-Agent string. So: people using IE will not see the problem anyway.
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17:51:59 [Philip]
Julian: That's a case where implementing XHTML gives a worse user experience
17:52:09 [Philip]
which isn't really the right kind of motivation
17:52:19 [Julian]
17:56:01 [PatrickDFIon]
Starting from scratch (going back to apparently smple foundations) has been tried repeatedly in math and, though interesting, is never what people depend on in practice. A Bourbaki definition of the empty set is alleged to have 900 symbols (or something like that). Also, each new technology has meant some sort of return to basics, and this one is no different. But neither of the last two remarks is really very helpful, probably. So I have to go o
17:56:50 [anne]
heh, overflow exception in his IRC client?
18:11:35 [mjs]
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18:18:25 [anne]
It's little bit weird that the forms discussion is mostly with the Forms WG chair rather than with the Forms WG Forms TF members...
18:19:25 [mjs]
anne: seemed kinda weird to me too
18:20:02 [anne]
Hopefully DanC / ChrisWilson will clear that up at some point
18:20:33 [DanC]
clear what up?
18:20:45 [DanC]
oh... that. sigh.
18:21:14 [DanC]
I enjoy dealing with that sort of stuff so much. it just really gets me up in the morning. not.
18:21:24 [anne]
18:21:37 [mjs]
DanC: sorry to heap troubles on you - I wasn't sure what else to do and I didn't want the Forms TF to get taken over completely by process debate
18:22:30 [mjs]
(gotta go to another building, will be back)
18:22:33 [anne]
(I'd be fine with making membership of the Forms TF openended for everyone interested in the Forms WG / HTML WG.)
18:23:27 [DanC]
I don't blame you for the troubles; in fact, it's something of a service to take something that had some vague obligation to deal with and put it succinctly in my inbox
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19:06:22 [shepazu]
anne: who would be the relevant interested people at Mozilla to talk about HTML5 issues? they don't seem to contribute much to HTML...
19:06:42 [shepazu]
I guess hsivonen works for Moz in some capacity, right?
19:06:46 [gavin]
what kind of "HTML5 issues"?
19:07:19 [shepazu]
specifically, the extensibility discussion
19:08:46 [anne]
I'd imagine mrbkap, sicking, bz, dbaron, et all, but I'm not entirely sure as I'm not really involved in the Mozilla project anymore :)
19:09:37 [shepazu]
and how about Opera people?
19:10:51 [anne]
We're on the list. We haven't really decided on a position or impact of the potential solutions.
19:11:38 [anne]
(Not that that would stop individuals from contributing.)
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19:12:22 [shepazu]
anne: similarly, who is someone at Opera who could discuss DOM3 Events during that telcon?
19:13:11 [anne]
I think that would be me. I fell asleep yesterday on my couch due to jetlag issues
19:13:37 [shepazu]
19:14:20 [shepazu]
no offense, but we'd like to also have someone who has implemented keyboard and events stuff
19:14:46 [shepazu]
obviously, you know a lot of the issues well, so you're welcome as well
19:16:44 [anne]
We've asked the team reasponsible before. They were not very interested in participating.
19:17:21 [shepazu]
so? :D
19:17:41 [anne]
well, the answer would be no :)
19:17:55 [shepazu]
19:20:47 [hsivonen]
hmm. Looks like Julian left. But indeed Genx seems to be about the only serializer that doesn't suck as such, but e.g. PyGenx sucks a bit in itself and has a lousy Debian/Ubuntu package situation, so using PyGenx makes scripts dramatically less installable
19:22:10 [hsivonen]
The Xalan folks don't seem too responsive to bug tracker items. I guess I should write my own XML serializer without trying to cover all the ground that Xalan tries to cover but fails
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19:26:38 [hsivonen]
shepazu: I have a consulting relationship with the Mozilla Corporation. I'm not working on Firefox but I do have HTML5 opinions. :-) In addition to the people anne mentioned, I'd add roc.
19:27:23 [shepazu]
yeah, he was already on my list, thanks
19:29:12 [hsivonen]
in my personal non-Mozilla-vetted opinion, the Gecko HTML parser really needs to replaced with a clean implementation of the HTML5 parsing algorithm
19:29:42 [gsnedders]
people in organisations have their own opinions!?
19:29:54 [shepazu]
well, that's the point of HTML5, no?
19:30:12 [hsivonen]
shepazu: yes, but that wasn't always the module owner opinion
19:30:33 [shepazu]
19:30:33 [hsivonen]
shepazu: It has been a *long* time since I last checked the module owner opinion, though
19:30:48 [shepazu]
that surprises me
19:31:02 [hsivonen]
shepazu: I mean, in theory you could try to hack the old code to do new tricks
19:31:06 [shepazu]
who's the owner?
19:31:36 [hsivonen]
shepazu: but *I* think it would be significantly more painful than writing a new parser
19:31:59 [gavin]
mrbkap (Blake Kaplan) is the owner of the HTML parser
19:32:05 [shepazu]
I would expect so, assuming that it can be proven to work
19:32:10 [gavin]
and afaik he was never opposed to it becoming an HTML5 parser
19:33:56 [shepazu]
anyone have mrbkap's email? I don't know him
19:34:08 [gavin]
mrbkap at gmail
19:34:15 [shepazu]
19:35:35 [hsivonen]
gavin: as I understood it, he didn't favor a rewrite almost three years ago
19:36:04 [hsivonen]
gavin: but the HTML5 prospects in general were different back then
19:36:22 [Hixie]
blake and i are in touch
19:36:35 [Hixie]
right now mozilla is swamped with ff3
19:36:48 [shepazu]
I know I have changed my opinion about the sensibility of a new parser for HTML
19:37:37 [gavin]
hsivonen: ah, I see
19:39:40 [hsivonen]
as an aside: the Gecko interfaces around the parsing area already don't match the expat setup which is in there despite the interface mismatch
19:40:30 [hsivonen]
a pure implementation of the HTML5 parsing algorithm wouldn't fit the old interfaces either, and would probably integrate the same way as expat+sink
19:41:26 [gavin]
it would certainly be a large endeavor
19:42:58 [hsivonen]
porting the parser from Java to C would go a long way, except
19:43:19 [gavin]
it would also be a pretty risky web compat change, I think - despite the large amounts of work that have gone into making HTML5's parser compatible with the web
19:43:30 [hsivonen]
1) the tree builder would have to know to do the Geckoish incremental rendering, script and style things
19:44:13 [hsivonen]
2) the main loop ownership would need to move out of the parser so that new buffers would be pushed to the parser instead of the parser pulling
19:45:15 [hsivonen]
that would probably lead to keeping tokenizer state in explicit variables instead of the runtime stack
19:45:17 [anne]
gavin, it would toaly be a huge risk
19:45:24 [anne]
has to be done early on, basically
19:45:43 [hsivonen]
anne: early in a release cycle?
19:45:53 [anne]
19:47:55 [shepazu]
possibly the only thing in that release cycle
19:48:00 [hsivonen]
the risk isn't quite as huge in compat terms, since WebKit is already so close to the HTML5 algorithm and WebKit works with real content
19:50:12 [anne]
WebKit does tiny things different that can have a lot of impact
19:50:18 [anne]
such as </form> parsing
19:50:24 [anne]
(different from HTML5)
19:50:26 [hsivonen]
19:51:17 [gavin]
"works with real content" is a not a binary state
19:52:02 [anne]
it's an impression :)
19:52:12 [gavin]
it's hard to compare webkit's "web compat" to mozilla's
19:53:54 [gavin]
(and in general between any two browser engines)
19:54:25 [Hixie]
yeah, changing the parser is a big risk/reward thing
19:54:37 [hsivonen]
and as with IE, it might not be the *Web* compat but that behind the firewall no one can hear you scream...
19:54:41 [Philip]
What's the reward?
19:54:51 [anne]
documented code :)
19:54:54 [anne]
tests, etc.
19:55:02 [hsivonen]
Philip: getting more value of the SVG and MathML renderers
19:55:05 [Philip]
Working code sounds much more important than documented code :-)
19:55:15 [anne]
not if you need to maintain it
19:55:43 [Philip]
When there's one maintainer and a hundred million users, nobody cares what the maintainer thinks
19:55:53 [hsivonen]
It's really sad that Gecko's SVG and MathML are locked behind XML parsing or JavaScript
19:56:32 [Philip]
We just need a JS script to enable HTML5-compatible parsing in old browsers
19:56:41 [gavin]
locked bhind XML parsing I understand - locked behind JAvaScript?
19:57:23 [hsivonen]
gavin: that in text/html you need something like dojo.gfx (or something like that) to use SVG and you can't just put the markup in the file
19:58:03 [gavin]
oh, I'm not really familiar with dojo.gfx
19:58:35 [gavin]
it creates elements dynamically, presumably?
19:58:40 [gavin]
I see
19:59:10 [hsivonen]
gavin: as I understand it, it creates SVG dynamically in Gecko/Opera/WebKit and VML in IE
20:00:11 [Hixie]
Philip: the reward is interop with other browsers once they switch too
20:00:16 [shepazu]
hsivonen: correct
20:04:03 [Philip]
Hixie: Sounds like the first switcher gets no reward at all
20:04:54 [Hixie]
Philip: don't underestimate the benefits of maintainability
20:05:00 [Hixie]
Philip: the current mozilla code is incomprehensible to most
20:05:15 [Hixie]
it needs a rewrite irrespective of html5
20:05:23 [Hixie]
if we are to keep adding elements
20:06:17 [hsivonen]
Philip: I agree with Hixie's assessment of the comprehensibility of the Gecko HTML parser code
20:06:44 [hsivonen]
Fortunately, I've never had to deal with the tokenizer
20:06:53 [hsivonen]
I have had to comprehend the tree builder
20:07:59 [hsivonen]
and I must admit that I wrote the incremental XML patch without ever *fully* comprehending what I was imitating
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20:28:56 [iNoob]
Would this be the place to ask a question related to HTML / Javascript?
20:30:03 [anne]
depends on the question :)
20:30:27 [anne]
(this is the channel of the HTML WG, one of the groups responsible for making HTML5)
20:30:43 [iNoob]
oh ok, should I just ask then?
20:31:24 [anne]
20:31:53 [iNoob]
Well, I have a link on my website with a query string of link= and when i click on it, I want it to open the link url in a frame def file
20:32:15 [iNoob]
so that the top frame would be a back button to get back to my site, and the bottom frame would have the amazon page that i linked to.
20:32:56 [iNoob]
Also, I have javascript code that I used on another page to do a similar task, except it fills in a plid number instead of a full link, and that code doesnt seem to be working on this instance
20:33:16 [anne]
yeah, you want another channel for those questions :)
20:33:32 [iNoob]
Ok, can you direct me to a better place to ask?
20:33:38 [anne]
maybe irc://
20:33:59 [iNoob]
ok, thank you :)
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21:47:15 [smedero]
Hopefully you're in the Seattle area today Chris... it is a gorgeous day.
22:08:36 [DanC]
hi smedero
22:09:50 [smedero]
Apologies for missing the telecon earlier... I believe you were looking to catch up with me on issue tracking tasks.
22:12:17 [DanC]
IRC is fine; the telcon got filled up with other stuff
22:13:35 [smedero]
Yeah, I went back and read through the log for today.
22:15:42 [DanC]
I keep wondering whether a distributed extensibility issue is worth adding
22:16:05 [smedero]
Is this in relation to Sam Ruby's thread from a while back?
22:16:22 [smedero]
ahh, yes:
22:16:59 [smedero]
and at least one follow up from Sam:
22:17:28 [smedero]
(using IRC as a cheap delicious at the moment... a new form of lazyness.)
22:18:27 [DanC]
well, I see connections between the recent "Exploring new vocabularies for HTML" and /2007/08/02/HTML5-and-Distributed-Extensibility
22:19:21 [smedero]
Yeah... it is the whole... "is the issue bigger than SVG/MATHML"? (and even namespaces...)
22:22:36 [DanC]
on the one hand, the distributed extensibility problem is very interesting; on the other hand, it's a HUGE design space, and not clearly one that we're chartered to solve
22:23:26 [DanC]
adding a distributed extensiblity issue is almost like adding "figure out how people design languages and software together" in our workplan
22:24:00 [Hixie]
not only that
22:24:08 [Hixie]
figure that out, and then figure out a way to make it work in text/html
22:25:22 [anne]
both seem annoying :)
22:25:54 [smedero]
we've been kicking this issue around (within this group at least) since at least Boston TPAC:
22:26:14 [smedero]
sorry, I'm having to jog my memory a bit on all this.
22:29:08 [DanC]
patrick ion seems pretty optimistic about the mathml part of the html-sgv-mathml issue; I observed that the design space looks big and asked how long he thought a good design discussions should take: 3 weeks? 6 months? he said 3 months should produce something good.
22:29:47 [DanC]
when it starts with re-discovering the difference between <script></script> and <script/>, I wonder.
22:31:08 [Hixie]
well, the discussions have been going on for 2 years
22:31:17 [Hixie]
so we're somewhat over time in that case :-)
22:32:38 [DanC]
I think he understood me to ask how long _from now_.
22:33:25 [DanC]
I had mentally filed MathML integration as an HTML 6 thingy.
22:34:19 [smedero]
22:35:00 [Hixie]
22:35:05 [Hixie]
well it's mostly a solved problem now actually
22:35:06 [Hixie]
22:35:59 [anne]
that was in reply to DanC I suppose?
22:36:46 [Hixie]
22:36:47 [DanC]
I was just looking at , but I can't parse it
22:37:04 [Hixie]
yeah it's just in note form really
22:37:22 [Hixie]
i'll convert it into a proper proposal in the next few hours
22:37:32 [Hixie]
(in the form of a diff against the spec)
22:38:01 [DanC]
looks like it might be easier to convert to js or py than english ;-)
22:39:19 [DanC]
well, it's interesting to hear that you're confident it can be solved in a tractible amount of time too
22:41:31 [Hixie]
yeah, should be mostly done by tomorrow
22:41:46 [anne]
are you putting it in the spec?
22:41:49 [Hixie]
though i have to do another survey to nail down exactly which html elements need to be hardcoded
22:42:00 [Hixie]
anne: unless someone finds a problem with it :-)
22:42:31 [anne]
i'm slightly scared with respect to parser changes, but i guess it's fair enough
22:44:41 [anne]
though it begs the question, what about the other HTML elements? :)
22:45:06 [Hixie]
which others?
22:45:08 [anne]
<event-source>, <section>
22:45:13 [Hixie]
ah yeah
22:45:19 [Hixie]
i should add those now too
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23:49:03 [anne]
Hixie, oh, and <ruby> :)
23:59:56 [Hixie]
that's a separate issue
23:59:56 [Hixie]
but yes