20:04:36 RRSAgent has joined #aria-math 20:04:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-irc 20:04:41 rrsagent, make log world 20:04:56 Rich has joined #aria-math 20:05:00 zakim, bye 20:05:00 Zakim has left #aria-math 20:05:14 jnurthen has joined #aria-math 20:05:32 meeting: ARIA discussion of Math 20:05:39 chair: Rich_Schwerdtfeger 20:05:50 peteb has joined #aria-math 20:06:14 scribe: oedipus 20:06:33 Neil has joined #aria-math 20:06:34 oedipus has joined #aria-math 20:06:47 last irc discussion thread on math: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0453.html 20:06:47 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0547.html (first item only) 20:06:49 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 20:06:53 scribeNick: oedipus 20:07:04 TOPIC: math role for ARIA 1.0 20:07:45 RS: trying to get your math request added to aria; think is great thing to add; want to 1) meet your needs and 2) provide best practices for embedding math 20:07:52 RS: last thread in IRC 20:08:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0453.html 20:08:17 AG: 19 March 2008 -- you replied, but bunch of technical details 20:08:38 RS: new math role -- what does it mean? how to use? how to reuse ALT text? how to handle images? 20:09:13 present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Pete_Brunet, Michael_Cooper, Al_Gilman, Gregory_Rosmaita, Nei_Soiffer, James_Nurthen, Jon_Gunderson 20:09:56 NS: brought up with MathML WG -- asked if had comments; some of things we discussed in PF email exchange came up -- restrictions on what type of math should be placed in a math role; MathML WG felt that a lot of stuff out, for past compatibility not good to abandon what is being done today and historically -- mix of TeX and MathML 20:10:19 NS: none of them are tagged identifying what they are; existing practice wide-open and that needs to stop 20:10:38 NS: sniffer trying to find math will be able to tell TeX, MathML, or similar syntax 20:10:56 NS: leave open-ended and not specify 20:11:45 NS: second: subtype "math-tex" -- discarded as bad idea -- to ambigous; too many TeX variants 20:12:31 NS: third issue: if math, might not be any alt text in suitable format, but down the road one could use OCR to pull equation from image -- already an OCR for math with acuracy in 97% range; again, not tagged, but open ended 20:13:14 NS: fourth: didn't care where it is -- BP can say "use alt text or use image" but one kind of math out there is JSMath -- uses TeX-like base to create javascripted (inaccessible) math 20:13:25 NS: don't want to force math into an image that has to be parsed 20:13:52 NS: no single practice -- math kind of a "wild west" frontier trying to get integrated into HTML 20:13:53 q+ 20:14:02 RS: what does having role="math" help with all formats? 20:14:59 NS: key thing which will allow anyone to do a11y -- 1) given cost of trying to discover math, having tag iding as math, keys a sniffer/handler to find and discover format; second) alerts AT that this is Math and calls a handler to come up with text to speak it, rather than gibberish 20:15:24 we are in #aria-math for math discussion 20:15:31 switch to #aria-math 20:16:05 Jon has joined #aria-math 20:16:10 kenny has joined #aria-math 20:16:52 NS: MathML WG felt that using attribute value "math" too general (plot, diagram, formula) want to restrict it more -- suggested "formula" or MSAAEquation 20:17:02 AG: MSAAEquation was the suggestion 20:17:46 RS: if prefer math, can in API mapping documents map to role="equation" 20:18:10 NS: not as picky as rest of wg, but thought "equation" restricted it and was more precise and maps well to what already exists 20:18:19 q? 20:18:21 q? 20:18:24 q? 20:18:30 Zakim has joined #aria-math 20:19:43 AG: a) have to channel simon p -- was pressuring us to have this fully specificied -- thinking that he is building into HTML5 and browser -- challanged that -- this is a flag AT uses to call helper -- it is the helper that decides how loose or strict it is going to be able to grok and that above 85% success would be BIG win 20:20:07 AG: where existing equations are in TeX can do that 20:21:23 AG: akward thing in that HTML has history of getting into trouble with putting sloppy definitions in specs which lead to differing/sloppy implementations; authos have been upset about what happens when their code hits the browser; strong desire in HTML WG to nail things down better and have more specific specificiation -- need to distinguish what role is here -- HTML and base UA not going to do everything for everyone 20:21:41 NS: math may be embedded in image -- may not even be perceptable to HTML parser 20:22:56 AG: SimonP would want to be quick -- if you are happy to sniff/ping inserts and give a sign "math handlers/sniffers" go find and process this; in accessibility also have problem -- in WCAG developed concept of accessibly supported technologies -- loose outer defninition (function performance) then "and furthermore if use this technique with this technology, value gets through to end user: 20:23:06 s/user;/user; 20:23:29 AG: value of "math" or "equation" is describing intent -- how you should understand this fragment of content; 20:23:50 q? 20:23:54 AG: when tell authors what to do, need "and furthermore if you do this, it is supported" so both a loose and a stricter statement 20:24:08 q+ Rich 20:25:04 michael, I am using skype for this call today. 20:25:06 NS: should be suggestion in Best Practices that says "this technology will be exposed/found if you do x with y app" -- would not leave open ended if starting from scratch, but since ARIA attempting to capture meaning in current practice and those practices vary greately 20:25:38 RS: mark this as "equation" here are common BP to support interoperability today, but is there an optional parameter for "equation" you would want? 20:26:11 NS: 2 things: 1) where is the math going to be found; 2) give me a strong clue as to what type of math i need to deal with (self-discoverable) 20:27:14 NS: with TeX similar, but different -- one thing not well understood about TeX was written without logical parser -- doesn't tokenize things but tokenizes each character 20:27:36 NS: some variants of TeX tokenize elements; things like that make TeX an open ended thing 20:27:52 q? 20:27:54 NS: would be nice to specify that, but 20 variantsof TeX and many implementations follow custom rules 20:27:57 ack Rich 20:31:06 AG: took first pass at approach: didn't address "casting to a dialect" but did point to where can find; put encoded math in ALT attribute one pattern has to be looked for (proably a search list); what is new in ARIA is "describedby" points to something for people or machines -- could point to a machine understandable -- could develop conventions for TeX -- ways to put into meta data (use SCRIPT that not displayed, ask what type of script, get return) -- hav 20:31:29 RS: describedby like a long desc for area in document 20:31:59 RS: can hide with CSS or have visible; gets mapped to accessible description in a11y APIs so one can extract text if needed; 20:32:18 RS: suggestion on how to process math object? OCR it, use description (describedby) 20:32:32 RS: can't specify TeX because too many variants 20:32:39 NS: right 20:33:22 NS: question i have which hasn't been answered by PF is "how important is compatibility with existing use cases?" -- is goal of ARIA to change and constrain use of math to make more accessible or just trying to describe current usage 20:34:24 RS: ARIA about interoperability with platform a11y APIs -- everything needs to be obtained through APIs; could say, if use ARIA, this is how you should use it for math -- if in best interest of industry -- use of ARIA might direct them to a more consistent use of math on web 20:35:48 NS: driving factor on some, but not all, putting math in HTML is terseness; some use TeX-like notation that uses javascript to "prettify" -- wikipedia/wikimedia has extension that creates TeX from ascii notation or to describe image containing math 20:36:13 NS: JSMath -- if javascript really doing writing, could put out more description 20:36:30 NS: maybe verbosity is not an issue on second thought -- tool will generate extra stuff 20:37:03 q? 20:37:33 AG: wikipedia case where site doing patern driven transform is good likelihood of uptake thing -- getting JSMath library to generate more stuff would rate down 20:37:36 NS: working with us 20:37:44 AG: maybe will work with us like dojo 20:38:42 q+ 20:39:10 AG: everyone in end cares about character count -- not just mobile providers; wasted chars not good idea -- if put TeX in alt and mark with role then should work -- content devlopers who want to put in different flavors of TeX, that we have the "try harder" coding patterns we target for when more than just an image and alt text 20:39:15 ack Jon 20:39:23 JRG: ideally what is most accesible way to put math on web 20:39:59 NS: MathML -- works with XHTML no problem, but problem with HTML -- if you only use IE, can put in HTML document and IE extention mechanism will handle it, but nothing in firefox or safari 20:40:19 RS: role="equation" - source equals "URI for mathML" and let AT suck it out 20:40:29 NS: URIs have 2000 character limits? 20:40:34 AG: good question 20:40:59 RS: here is URI for source of that, don't need alt text -- if you understand MathML go get it 20:41:08 AG: problem when src used to point to math image 20:41:13 RS: can handle that 20:41:20 AG: HLink versus XLink wars 20:42:19 NS: essentially 1 thing saying let's make it explicit and put on image or embed tag -- MathML WG trying to make math more interoperable -- people carry around images, but leave alt text behind; embedding in image safe way to go -- always there 20:43:02 NS: extractable from image, not dependent on alt -- TeX part of image 20:43:29 NS: not bad idea to have attribute that make these things obvious, but worry about fragility of extraction method 20:43:56 RS: like to have 2 vehicles in BP: role="equation" -- in BP say "store equivalent text in image" 20:44:08 NS: here are 3 or 4 ways that are supported by most extraction techs 20:44:26 NS: 1 would be ALT text (current practice); other would be using "describedby" and other in image itself 20:44:34 RS: no URL to mathml equiv 20:44:37 NS: not sure 20:44:45 AG: should be supported 20:44:50 GJR: strong plus one 20:45:06 AG: if provider has equation in MathML, need to know -- want to use that if present 20:45:20 RS: mathML equiv to give URL (optional parameter) 20:45:42 NS: why just MathML? if to make discovery easy, shouldn't be limited to MathML -- just URL of equivalent 20:46:01 RS: server could tell media type when pull down TeX 20:46:04 NS: is a text format 20:46:12 MC: datatype or new mime-type property? 20:46:48 AG: has to be tested to make sure current implementations of OBJECT won't break; if put in OBJECT and make MathML first choice, that is the Best Practice possible; problem is whith mime-types for MathML 20:46:59 NS: persued and rejected by MathML WG 20:47:23 AG: problem: UA can't determine ahead of time if can process MathML -- doesn't know MathML is MathML until gets it 20:47:26 RS: right 20:47:29 NS: sigh, right 20:47:37 NS: though OBJECT has own problems 20:48:41 AG: matter of debate -- tantek told us it has been fixed; HTML5 faction against it (VIDEO, AUDIO, etc.) -- shouldn't lose cascading fallback idea; want to wait to have highest and best form avialable 20:49:04 AG: issues: need mime-type identifier; need extractor for TeX in image 20:49:08 q+ 20:49:16 Do we know if any screen readers today support LaTex? 20:49:30 MC: putting mathML in attributes means using escape characters 20:49:41 AG: TeX in alt rather than MathML 20:50:06 Thanks gregory. 20:50:27 AG: if load into IFRAME, how is communicated to UA that this thing contains math -- application/xml+mathml -- if can't process XML move onto something else 20:50:39 NS: not going to work right now 20:51:01 GJR: MC can WCAG2 address the author's best practice by advising that TeX be embeded in an image 20:51:30 AG: interim technique; also want to fix the web so highest and best math (MathML) can be documented as object and served to users 20:51:57 NS: MathML in HTML5 -- consensus that math will be in HTML5 -- probably MathML in some as yet unkown/specified form 20:52:05 NS: want to discourage hacks 20:52:21 q? 20:52:28 q+ Rich 20:52:32 AG: agree -- just trying to separate 2 issues: need role now so something can be processed and 20:52:40 q? 20:52:44 ack oedipus 20:53:07 GJR: need to take info to WCAG and ATAG 20:53:27 RS: if alt text not in document, are you going to pull alt text out of image and map to a11y api? 20:53:56 q? 20:54:43 NS: don't think UA itself would do sniffing (although would be great if would) -- UA's not the ones that turn MathML into speech, AT vendors don't want to handle MathML directly, so would have to use Expert Handler (http://a11y.org/handlers) -- there is pllugin for IE that allows speech -- AT essential to getting braille support 20:54:48 q? 20:56:02 NS: developed tech to go out and pull the alt text out, paste into equation editor; port that back into viewer -- take the TeX translate to MathML then run through MathML to Speech and MahtML to braille engines -- very doable; current limitation -- plugin calls for MathML and need to do javascript on imagesand scan of page to determine what math is there in what form 20:56:24 NS: if have role="math" could limit search 20:57:30 -marcsil 20:57:31 AG: summarize: if the user has a png format for their picture of equation and put embedded meta-data in png, not expect browser to put into API as accessible description -- can take alt text and processed as usual; if mathML in embedded, math helper might write good description into accessibility API 20:58:01 NS: ARIA exported to AT, javascript that binds will do translation and in case of UAs not serving up dom, can rewrite page AT should pick up 20:58:09 NS: alt text put out as value field in MSAA? 20:58:52 RS: no, AccessibleName and helpInformation -- MSAA has description API (equiv of help) IA2 has relationships that understand "describedby"; don't know what UIAutomation plans 20:59:08 NS: whatever written, write correctly, even if in alt 20:59:30 RS: wearing AT vendor hat, if TeX embedded in image, would want to know that if don't have TeX plugin 21:00:11 NS: what is loud and clear from AT vendors is "we're not dealing with math; you do that, tell us what to put out, and we'll support it" not going to search DOM, will speak if is there -- don't want to fetch image and parse it 21:00:55 RS: 2 things: 1) either can put a describedby as technique or a tool can fulfill that role; 2) HTML5 people will not like URL pointing 21:01:26 NS: HTML5 people will tell you that they will handle math as text/html -- dubious at this point if possible 21:01:55 q? 21:01:58 NS: describedby field in TeX or MathML -- if had javascript that looks for math and outputs speech, is it still "describedby"? 21:02:22 AG: describedby takes list of IDs -- have to revisit what UAs do with concatonated methods 21:02:39 AG: can't do this on fly, but are things can write into DOM that can capture (SSML) 21:02:54 NS: with MSAA can't use SSML, have to use straight text 21:03:25 NS: as long as you come up with soulition that describedby is machine field, need to id field that needs priority to generate speech, braille, etc. 21:04:00 AG: hoemwork item, but this discussion has GREATLY cleared up the issues; thought going to take directoy to APIs -- if put back into DOM, have to rethink thorugh fully so AT ends up with it 21:05:25 NS: found varying levels of commitment from AT vendors: base level - have MSAA interface, but that is limited to string of text (can't put braille in that -- text you put in isn't braille you get out in math) -- that's why have to expose handler interface to all UAs all ATs all platforms; minimum base is ability to take math code and output speech 21:05:33 RS: braille involves fight with AT 21:05:48 NS: we dont' speak things, we return text for speech and braille engines 21:06:24 + +1.919.523.aabb 21:06:52 AG: take back to ATs -- knee-jerk reaction is that that is part of procedure call on dispatching expert handler -- should know if have braille device and follow user's preference; Fluid Project beating on W3C elsewhere, so will be a W3C user prefernces in context that can be exposed 21:07:20 RS: don't want future equivalent for MathML 21:08:02 q+ 21:08:02 RS: "equation" or "math" 21:08:16 LP: preference for math -- it's shorter 21:08:30 NS: MathML prefered equation, personally don't care 21:08:33 ack Rich 21:08:34 ack Rich 21:08:37 zakim, +1.919 is Lisa_Pappas 21:08:37 +Lisa_Pappas; got it 21:08:48 q+ to say I thought equations were a subset of math, so I prefer math 21:09:16 AG: can live with either -- math good idea now -- authors will relate better to math - will think equation doesn't always apply 21:09:19 q- 21:09:25 q? 21:09:26 q- 21:09:28 ack Al 21:09:59 RS: can say in description "this is a math equation" 21:10:11 NS: not equations, expressions, but... 21:10:19 RS: math expression in definition 21:10:25 +1 21:10:29 +1 21:10:32 +1 21:10:36 present+ Lisa_Pappas 21:10:40 +1 21:10:45 LP +1 21:10:45 +1 21:10:57 raman gave +1 to "math" on list 21:11:44 RESOLVED: ARIA will use math role type; in definition will state that this is a "math expression" 21:12:15 rssagent make minutes 21:13:09 RS: describedby a universal property, right? 21:13:11 MC: yes 21:14:13 RS: don't have to say antyhing explicit in spec about math, but a BP thing; have to compose best practices section 1) alternative text embedded in image, third party app extracts info and load "describedby" with that info, or may speak, or author may but in "describedby" himslef 21:14:37 NS: describedby -- words to speak or what should be written into DOM using existing API bindings 21:14:52 AG: need to get AaronL (mozilla) and SimonP (opera) in on this 21:16:05 RS: best way to speak it (as long as not changing voice dynamics) == that way AT doesn't have to think alot to deliver to TTS or braille device 21:16:20 NS: machine encoding shouldn't be part of "describedby" 21:16:37 AG: how does API binding respect cascade of acceptable forms 21:17:06 NS: someone could manually use field -- need to know if field exists 21:17:29 AG: action/homework item: UA best practice for AT helper (expert handler -- if writes back into DOM, how to do it) 21:17:41 AG: need browser brothers to address this 21:17:56 RS: if start putting other markup in there, going to go bonkers 21:18:25 AG: are we going to say if TeX in image and can figure how to say that can overwrite ALT and go with that -- haven't been considering that piece of problem 21:19:36 NS: 2 ways: 1) we say "override ALT or describedby" and put in description AT can pick up: 2) tighter binding -- id as Math -- call expert handler, and that will tell us what to say -- that fall back position is needed -- may be rewriting ALT or describedby -- should process, put back into DOM 21:20:39 AG: for PF, in terms of browsers binding DOM to API, much plainer if return to AT that called handler than figuring out override; don't want to overwrite something suitable to speak that is only handled by handler; handler api has to return best advoice on how to speak or braille expression 21:21:49 RS: what is best practice: how does an AT know that an expert handler/plugin (MathPlayer - works only in IE) 21:22:26 NS: have to work with each AT vendor to tell them "when you get to this node, use our interfaces" when you get to our interface, then speak, highlight, braille-output 21:22:38 NS: plug-in a dll that gets into registry 21:22:57 NS: want standard way that says "here is how you work with expert handler" rather than one-off solutions 21:23:53 AG: browsers look like going to implement ARIA, will be refelected in accessibleRole in API -- if use a11y API can bootstrap off of that, determine if math and then ask for hel 21:23:58 s/hel/help 21:24:20 RS: preferential way to look at describedby or alt -- that would be what is to be spoken 21:25:11 NS: JavaScript solution is a cross-platform base fallback -- can't give highlighting or braille currnetly; if could write SSML into math speech, would be much better, but if stuck with plain text, fake it with commas and periods and other klduges 21:25:25 AG: small SSML implementations not available yet 21:25:38 RS: if use describedby method should be processable in speech 21:25:59 NS: exactly what i did with MSAA/SAPI5 -- value field with plain text 21:26:10 NS: like RS' soultiion 21:26:17 s/soultiion/solution 21:26:45 RS: need to put something in best practices -- don't need to do anything special with UA devs 21:27:06 AG: have in our vocab "valuetext" -- if make "valuetext" apply to math role, have place to stuff it 21:27:18 RS: [ponders] -- 21:27:23 NS: can it be a long string? 21:27:25 RS: yes 21:27:47 RS: currently valuetext associated with valuemax valuemin etc. 21:28:19 AG: document has tools to deal with it attribute by attribute -- math role has this property: "valuetext" defaults to how to say, can also put in how to braille 21:28:35 RS: in HTML what is maximum lenght of string 21:28:44 AG: have to look for it 21:29:35 AG: generic limit on strings 255 21:29:51 MC: anything directed towards human should be in an element 21:30:02 RS: between 2 tags can be as long as want 21:30:40 AG: that points to describedby over valuetext -- problem: have to work with AT so that role="math" goies straight to describedby and prcess it in its entirety 21:30:55 RS: think have enought to write something up 21:31:04 -Jon_Gunderson 21:31:33 ACTION ARIA Editors: write up proposal for role="math" and best practices for its use 21:32:06 -Al 21:32:06 bye 21:32:08 -Gregory_Rosmaita 21:32:08 -Neil_Soiffer 21:32:09 -Lisa_Pappas 21:32:09 -Matt_May 21:32:11 NS: happy to participate as needed 21:32:11 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 21:32:13 -Cooper 21:32:14 -Kenny_Johar 21:32:18 -James_Nurthen 21:32:26 -Pete_Brunet 21:32:27 WAI_PFWG(ARIA)4:00PM has ended 21:32:28 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Al, +1.512.238.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Pete_Brunet, Matt_May, SotosBarkas, Neil_Soiffer, Jon_Gunderson, marcsil, 21:32:31 ... Kenny_Johar, +1.919.523.aabb, Lisa_Pappas 21:32:40 regrets+ Janina_Sajka 21:32:55 rrsagent, create minutes 21:32:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:33:54 rrsagent, format minutes 21:33:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:35:22 rrsagent, format minutes 21:35:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:35:41 present+ Neil_Soiffer 21:35:50 present- Nei_Soiffer 21:35:52 rrsagent, format minutes 21:35:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:36:15 present+ Kenny_Johar 21:36:22 rrsagent, make minutes 21:36:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:36:38 regrets+ Sally_Cain 21:36:40 rrsagent, make minutes 21:36:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:38:10 present+ Marc_Silbey 21:38:12 rrsagent, make minutes 21:38:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:54:01 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0547.html 21:54:04 rrsagent, make minutes 21:54:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:54:20 present+ Matt_May 21:54:23 rrsagent, make minutes 21:54:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:54:45 present+ James_Nurthen 21:54:47 rrsagent, make minutes 21:54:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html oedipus 21:59:45 Jon has left #aria-math 22:00:28 rrsagent, please part 22:00:28 I see no action items