14:44:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:44:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-forms-irc
14:44:39 <Steven> trackbot-ng, start call
14:44:44 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
14:44:57 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:44:58 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:45:04 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:45:37 <Zakim> +??P1
14:45:45 <ebruchez> zakim, ??P1 is ebruchez
14:45:45 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
14:46:00 <Zakim> + +1.919.254.aaaa
14:46:12 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:46:15 <wellsk> zakim, aaaa is wellsk
14:46:17 <Zakim> +wellsk; got it
14:47:05 <Zakim> +Susan_Borgrink
14:47:43 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0081.html
14:47:48 <nic1> nic1 has joined #forms
14:48:00 <nic1> zakim, code?
14:48:00 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nic1
14:48:09 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
14:48:40 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
14:48:41 <Roger> zakim, code?
14:48:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger
14:48:46 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:48:50 <nic1> zakim, mute me
14:48:50 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
14:48:53 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Kenneth, Joern, Leigh
14:49:23 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:49:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:49:24 <Zakim> +Steven
14:50:21 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
14:50:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Boyer, ebruchez, wellsk, Susan_Borgrink, Nick_van_den_Bleeken (muted), Steven
14:50:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Roger, nic1, ebruchez, RRSAgent, SusanB, Zakim, John_Boyer, wellsk, Steven, markbirbeck, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:50:31 <Zakim> +??P7
14:50:40 <Roger> zakim, +??P7 is Roger
14:50:40 <Zakim> sorry, Roger, I do not recognize a party named '+??P7'
14:51:00 <Roger> zakim, ??P7 is Roger
14:51:00 <Zakim> +Roger; got it
14:51:56 <wellsk> Scribe: wellsk
14:52:25 <wellsk> zakim, mute me
14:52:25 <Zakim> wellsk should now be muted
14:53:18 <wellsk> Skipping Reports on XForms Basic from agenda 
14:53:45 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0079.html
14:53:45 <wellsk> John: Topic is  Behavior of replace=text for submissions that retrieve non-text 
14:54:10 <Roger> zakim, mute me
14:54:10 <Zakim> Roger should now be muted
14:54:11 <wellsk> s/John://
14:54:43 <wellsk> John: applicable to web based applications
14:55:02 <wellsk> ... file content from system, something which isn't text code
14:55:44 <wellsk> ... base64 or hexbinary content is in instance data, how to get it back out of instance data
14:56:25 <wellsk> ... upload of file of xml data, person B access data with virtually same xforms to extract contents to local system
14:57:08 <wellsk> ... submission  with PUT to put into file system with original content
14:57:40 <wellsk> ... should be able to do reverse with submission GET
14:58:49 <wellsk> ... with binary content, can't dump directly into data
14:59:38 <wellsk> ... why can't submission act like upload control and do the text replacement with content of node
15:00:10 <wellsk> ... access binary content on the web and put into xforms instance using get or post submission requesting binary content
15:00:11 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:00:42 <wellsk> ... thus able to get content to local file system
15:00:51 <wellsk> ... comments?
15:01:18 <wellsk> Eric: how to give max control to form author and how serialized
15:01:40 <wellsk> Eric: how to do with types in instance data
15:01:55 <Zakim> +Ulrich_Nicolas_Lisse
15:02:00 <wellsk> Eric: what is type of data?
15:02:21 <unl> zakim, Ulrich_Nicolas_Lisse is me
15:02:21 <Zakim> +unl; got it
15:02:28 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:02:28 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:03:08 <wellsk> Eric: possibly use URL, hex or binary encoded data, base64 data for instance data
15:03:42 <wellsk> Eric: dereference the data
15:04:19 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has left #forms
15:04:32 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
15:05:39 <wellsk> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0081.html
15:06:11 <wellsk> John: using mime parameters
15:06:28 <wellsk> John: image/* or application/octet-stream
15:06:51 <wellsk> John: do hex64 encoding before sending instance data
15:06:53 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:06:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:07:14 <John_Boyer> s/hex64/base64
15:07:25 <wellsk> Eric: small list of encodings in http 1.1
15:07:34 <John_Boyer> if application/octet-stream; content-encoding="base64"
15:08:12 <Zakim> +Mark
15:10:08 <wellsk> Eric: binary contents is sent as is, content can be chunked, no base64 needed on http to exchange binary  
15:10:21 <wellsk> Eric: no need to have base64 on wire
15:10:54 <wellsk> John: useful to have base64 to convert binary to something to be stored in XML
15:11:35 <wellsk> John: efficient to get compression to happen before base64 encoding happens
15:11:48 <wellsk> s/happens//
15:12:34 <wellsk> Eric: binary serialization and hint to implementation to compress it (gzip)
15:13:01 <Charlie> Charlie has joined #forms
15:13:12 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:13:23 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
15:13:23 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
15:13:31 <Charlie> * sorry...missed the time!
15:13:42 <wellsk> John: decoded binary data, blob of binary and xml data -- what is behavior to put into data node
15:13:54 <wellsk> John: spec says it failed
15:14:10 <wellsk> John: take binary to make non-binary
15:14:24 <wellsk> Eric: yes this needs to happen on xforms client
15:14:44 <wellsk> Eric: to happen even if gzip on wire
15:15:01 <John_Boyer> e.g replace="text/xml; content-encoding='base64-gzip'"
15:15:07 <wellsk> Eric: maybe extra parametert needed on submission
15:15:26 <wellsk> s/parametert/parameter/
15:15:58 <John_Boyer> replace="text" could default to base64-zip when binary data is received
15:16:37 <wellsk> Eric: need consistency between upload and submission
15:17:41 <John_Boyer> s/base64-zip/base64-gzip
15:17:50 <wellsk> John: is this a legitimat comment for xforms 1.1
15:18:36 <wellsk> John: replace=text/xml when receives binary data, instead of failing, it defaults to base64-gzip encoding
15:19:11 <wellsk> John: instead of failing do something intelligent
15:20:26 <wellsk> John: submission with GET of "file:"
15:20:47 <wellsk> ... similar to upload control
15:21:11 <wellsk> .. should submission faile with binary data, should we change for 1.1 or wait for future?
15:21:21 <wellsk> s/faile/fail/
15:21:33 <wellsk> Steven: sounds like substantive change
15:21:46 <wellsk> Steven: add to errata..
15:22:10 <wellsk> Steven: should not change for CR 1.1
15:22:38 <wellsk> John: if future feature, should this be something we want to do, Eric/John say is useful 
15:22:56 <wellsk> Steven: doesn't make it text
15:23:19 <wellsk> John: if 1.2 or later we can revisit keyword to trigger processing to occur
15:23:45 <wellsk> John: "replace=binary"
15:24:57 <wellsk> John: action to make replace=binary a future feature item
15:25:16 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0055.html
15:25:33 <wellsk> Topic: Make progress on "Add Model Item Properties to UI Level"
15:26:30 <wellsk> John: based on canonical form can use both $ and non-$ syntax 
15:27:50 <wellsk>    <bind id="LineTotal" nodeset="LineTotal"> 
15:30:05 <nic1> zakim, unmute me
15:30:05 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
15:31:59 <wellsk> John: output with "name=LineTotal"
15:32:06 <wellsk> ... missing
15:32:27 <wellsk> Eric: doesn't use the index
15:32:52 <wellsk> ... uses context node, found bind returns more than one node
15:33:06 <wellsk> ... particular row element 
15:33:37 <wellsk> John: how it works within repeat... but how is it doing it
15:34:00 <wellsk> Eric: for each row element evaluate nested binds
15:34:03 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#idref-resolve
15:34:53 <ebruchez> "Otherwise, the IDREF resolution produced a null search result."
15:35:06 <wellsk> John: 4.7 written to identify one object
15:36:36 <John_Boyer> <repeat bind="somenodeset">
15:36:37 <wellsk> John: context node at point of ref to select inner bind which is being referred to...
15:36:44 <John_Boyer> <input bind="somenode">
15:36:53 <wellsk> Eric: last sentence of 4.7.2
15:37:31 <wellsk> Eric: LineItem would return 0
15:37:49 <wellsk> s/LineItem/LineTotal/
15:38:11 <wellsk> John: intent to find object not ids
15:38:50 <wellsk> John: if can't find single object of referred to id -- then it would return null
15:39:23 <wellsk> Eric: id resolution would be handled behind the scene in implementation
15:40:05 <wellsk> John: repeat with inputs, not enough to say it is one element, repeat is binding to multiple nodes, have to be input elements
15:40:34 <wellsk> John: physical copies of same input element or actually are input elements
15:41:07 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-repeat-module
15:41:29 <wellsk> Eric: wondered what was  the intent of "bind the element"
15:41:47 <wellsk> Eric: what would bind return..?
15:42:20 <wellsk> John: can make behavioral changes since working on spec
15:42:35 <wellsk> John: union of inner bind nodesets
15:42:50 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#def-repeat-object
15:42:57 <wellsk> Eric: xforms:repeat referencing inner bind, compute resulting nodesets
15:43:48 <wellsk> Eric: what is resolution of variable within inner bind
15:44:25 <wellsk> John: can't select a particular inner bind or result of nodesets from inner binds
15:45:01 <wellsk> John: simplified syntax -- $ approach, $LineTotal  is referring to inner bind
15:45:51 <wellsk> Mark: create a bind with LineTotal...
15:46:07 <wellsk> Mark: why do they need to be done like that?
15:46:14 <wellsk> Eric: to reference a bind
15:46:31 <nic1> otherwise it will not work for nested repeats
15:46:32 <wellsk> Eric: makes sense to define as an inner bind
15:46:38 <markbirbeck> <bind id="row" nodeset="row" />
15:46:52 <markbirbeck> <bind id="Product" nodeset="row/Product"/>
15:47:05 <markbirbeck> <bind id="LineTotal" nodeset="row/LineTotal">
15:47:13 <wellsk> Nick if have nested repeats -- presents a problem
15:47:25 <wellsk> s/Nick/Nick:/
15:47:41 <wellsk> Nick: nested repeat to be relative to outer repeat
15:48:02 <wellsk> John: how to refer to Price?
15:48:24 <wellsk> Mark: thiought all Binds were at the top level...
15:48:35 <wellsk> s/thiought/thought/
15:48:51 <wellsk> John: are you ok using inner binds?
15:49:01 <wellsk> Mark: yes would have to be that way..
15:49:33 <wellsk> John: Quatitiy, Price causing inner binds to happen as same as controls
15:49:44 <wellsk> s/Quatity/Quantity/
15:50:03 <wellsk> John: iterate calculations, so good as inner binds
15:50:22 <wellsk> John: sum $LineTotal, treating as id refs to binds...
15:50:36 <wellsk> John: how work with todays spec...
15:50:52 <wellsk> John: ID is ref to specific object
15:51:09 <wellsk> s/is ref/refers to/
15:51:51 <wellsk> John: $LineTotal is outside of repeat, take the union of nodesets
15:52:21 <wellsk> John: does context node allow to select next bind up, and repeated next bind up
15:52:53 <wellsk> Mark: concatenate inner evaluations with in repeat
15:53:18 <wellsk> Eric: look at context on both sides, if match -- take that bind
15:54:33 <ebruchez> we DO have a current() function, sorry about that
15:55:08 <wellsk> John: Bind ID referencing needs to be worked out
15:55:31 <wellsk> John: to take union and arbitrary recursive depth..
15:55:35 <wellsk> Nick: hard to do 
15:56:13 <wellsk> John: becomes recursion to go up to next bind, etc, and still can't find it then stop
15:56:33 <wellsk> John: only have to do recursion when ref is made
15:57:08 <wellsk> John: which of the inner binds have the evaluation scope...
15:57:38 <wellsk> Eric: think that something like this will work...
15:57:59 <wellsk> Eric: have all the nodesets, can list all the nodes
15:58:47 <wellsk> John: might be a bit slow, reparse set of binds, find all the id refs and then union results...
15:59:11 <wellsk> Eric: caching could save it, and other implementation tricks
16:00:00 <wellsk> John: caching tricks would have to be frequently used for implementation
16:02:19 <wellsk> Binds have to have a rebuild to update references
16:02:44 <wellsk> John: what happens when you  use $ vars inside xpath expr i binds?
16:02:51 <wellsk> s/i/in/
16:03:26 <wellsk> Eric: if using on calculates shouldn't be a problem, could be more problematic in @nodeset
16:03:57 <wellsk> John: creating an "order" problem on how to effect binds
16:04:14 <wellsk> Eric: direct relationship of var ref and bind
16:04:37 <wellsk> John: doing rebuild, process binds in particular order
16:04:56 <wellsk> Eric: perhaps easily prevented
16:05:08 <wellsk> John: maybe not make forward references..
16:05:48 <wellsk> Eric: in exforms, variables have to be declared before and inscope referenceable
16:06:09 <wellsk> John: can do that because you created a varriable
16:06:30 <wellsk> s/varriable/variable/
16:06:39 <wellsk> Eric: make 2 passes
16:07:02 <wellsk> John: end result, becomes a topological sort
16:07:20 <wellsk> Eric: binds depend on other binds
16:07:31 <wellsk> Eric: using path expressions
16:08:07 <wellsk> Nick: no, referred variable in nested bind, or deeper in hierarchy in nodeset
16:08:24 <wellsk> John: harder than depth first search
16:08:45 <wellsk> Eric: LineTotal is specified before repeat binds...
16:09:08 <wellsk> Eric: clearly order would have to be changed and could determine that
16:10:35 <wellsk> John: key issues coming out is, $ case looks good for simplified syntax is good, but processing model has to be reworked and fleshed out
16:10:50 <wellsk> ... order would have to be recalculated
16:11:25 <wellsk> Eric: maybe canonical form would replace with path expressions
16:12:02 <wellsk> John: Convert $ system, converted to something that does the xpath concatenation
16:13:13 <wellsk> John: $LineTotal appears outside of repeat, but is ref to inner bind, replaces with xpath '/' concatenation
16:14:31 <wellsk> Eric: complex calculate coiuld become hard to do
16:15:02 <wellsk> John: we have a future feature to do  binds with UI expressions
16:15:31 <wellsk> ... depth first search for rebuilds
16:16:52 <wellsk> John: maybe don't need UI binds if we have  $ variables.
16:17:12 <wellsk> John: other things can't refer to it...
16:17:31 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:17:41 <wellsk> John: need to resove this
16:18:29 <nic1> Nick: You can't concatenate the XPath expressions if you have current() in multiple of those expressions because the different current() instances refer to different nodes
16:18:37 <Charlie> sure
16:18:49 <wellsk> John: can people create a special session to resolve this... 
16:18:53 <wellsk> Many: yes
16:19:08 <wellsk> s/create/attend/
16:19:11 <Steven> s/Quatitiy/Quantity
16:19:32 <Charlie> bye
16:19:34 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:19:34 <Steven> bye
16:19:34 <Roger> bye
16:19:34 <SusanB> bye
16:19:36 <Zakim> -Mark
16:19:37 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:19:37 <Zakim> -Charlie
16:19:39 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:19:39 <Zakim> -unl
16:19:40 <Zakim> -wellsk
16:19:42 <Zakim> -Steven
16:19:47 <Zakim> -Susan_Borgrink
16:20:05 <Roger> Roger has left #forms
16:20:16 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
16:20:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roger
16:20:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, nic1, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, wellsk, Steven, shepazu, trackbot-ng
16:20:22 <Steven> zakim, drop roger
16:20:22 <Zakim> Roger is being disconnected
16:20:23 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:20:25 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Boyer, ebruchez, +1.919.254.aaaa, wellsk, Susan_Borgrink, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Steven, Roger, unl, Mark, Charlie
16:20:37 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:20:47 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:21:00 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
16:21:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:22:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
16:22:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-forms-irc
16:22:28 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:25:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:31:11 <nick> nick has joined #forms
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