IRC log of bpwg on 2008-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:35 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:57:35 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-irc
14:57:37 [trackbot-ng]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:37 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:57:39 [trackbot-ng]: Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:57:39 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot-ng, I see MWI_BPWG()11:00AM already started
14:57:40 [trackbot-ng]: Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:57:40 [trackbot-ng]: Date: 20 March 2008
14:57:51 [francois]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Mar/0059.html
14:57:59 [francois]: Chair: DKA
14:58:06 [francois]: Regrets: Nacho, Abel, Miguel, Magnus, Dom, srowen, EdM, Adam, Shah, AlanC, rob, hgerlach, AlanTai, MartinJ, murari, kemp
14:59:04 [soonho]: Sorry for attending with IRC.
14:59:27 [Jason]: Jason has joined #bpwg
14:59:42 [francois]: zakim, code?
14:59:42 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:59:55 [Zakim]: + +1.503.539.aabb
14:59:57 [Zakim]: - +1.503.539.aabb
14:59:57 [Zakim]: + +1.503.539.aabb
15:00:13 [Zakim]: +francois
15:00:35 [matt]: matt has joined #bpwg
15:00:51 [Zakim]: +DKA
15:01:34 [francois]: zakim, who's on the call?
15:01:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.585.278.aaaa, +1.503.539.aabb, francois, DKA
15:01:52 [francois]: zakim, aabb is Jason
15:01:52 [Zakim]: +Jason; got it
15:02:05 [francois]: zakim, aaaa is jeffs
15:02:05 [Zakim]: +jeffs; got it
15:02:10 [jeffs]: tnx
15:02:37 [Zakim]: +Bryan_Sullivan
15:04:04 [drooks]: drooks has joined #bpwg
15:04:40 [Zakim]: + +0783371aacc
15:04:47 [DKA]: ScribeNick: Bryan
15:04:54 [DKA]: Scribe: Bryan
15:04:58 [drooks]: zakim, +0783371aacc is drooks
15:04:58 [Zakim]: +drooks; got it
15:05:19 [Bryan]: Topic: CT Task Force report
15:05:32 [DKA]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:05:42 [Zakim]: DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jeffs (13%), francois (68%)
15:05:50 [DKA]: zakim, mute jeffs
15:05:50 [Zakim]: jeffs should now be muted
15:06:00 [jeffs]: tnx
15:06:35 [Bryan]: Francois: Making progress, with more problems arising. Difficult to speed things up, trying to get ready for FPWD. Editor's call next week, depending upon progress.
15:06:47 [SeanP]: SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:07:12 [Bryan]: ... in the current draft there are many red boxes showing issues that need resolution.
15:07:18 [francois]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313 last CT draft
15:08:35 [Zakim]: +SeanP
15:08:41 [Bryan]: ... there is one big issue but the little problems take time, e.g. detection of browsers and non-browsers. These sort of issues need more discussions, raise concerns/issues, etc.
15:10:02 [Bryan]: ... from 3.1.2 and beyond need work.On 4/3 we should be ready to review and make a decision on public draft.
15:10:14 [Bryan]: Dan: any other issues?
15:11:08 [DKA]: q?
15:11:13 [Bryan]: Francois: TF activity is good, no need to discuss other things here.
15:11:46 [Bryan]: Dan: re the Mobile OK Pro TF, update is requested
15:12:30 [Bryan]: Dan: but with Kai not present, we will have to wait.
15:12:47 [Bryan]: Topic: BP2 update
15:13:02 [DKA]: q?
15:13:13 [francois]: ScribeNick: francois
15:13:14 [DKA]: Scribe: Francois
15:13:19 [francois]: Scribe: francois
15:13:21 [DKA]: ScribeNick: francois
15:14:04 [francois]: Bryan: small update, I've yet to find cristallized things to add to the document
15:14:27 [Zakim]: + +0496151aadd
15:14:29 [francois]: ... I included some of Sean's Ajax techniques
15:14:40 [DKA]: q?
15:14:42 [francois]: ... 5.11.1: a little bit of update
15:15:27 [francois]: ... In "provide alternatives to Ajax", I have a ref to http://thinkingandmaking.com/entries/63
15:15:43 [francois]: ... It would be really useful if someone could have a look at it
15:15:51 [francois]: ... and crystallize it
15:16:15 [francois]: DKA: volunteer to turn that into "How to do it"?
15:16:20 [jeffs]: want me to?
15:16:27 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
15:16:27 [Zakim]: On the phone I see jeffs (muted), Jason, francois, DKA, Bryan_Sullivan, drooks, SeanP, +0496151aadd
15:16:29 [Zakim]: On IRC I see SeanP, drooks, matt, Jason, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, Bryan, soonho, francois, jo, trackbot-ng, dom
15:16:42 [matt]: Present- Matt
15:16:46 [jeffs]: q+
15:16:51 [francois]: Bryan: by default, I'll do that if no one else does.
15:16:53 [DKA]: zakim, aadd is kai
15:16:56 [Zakim]: +kai; got it
15:16:58 [DKA]: ack jeffs
15:17:19 [francois]: jeffs: If you want me to take a look at this specific section (5.9.4), I'll do it over the week-end
15:17:50 [francois]: Bryan: jeffs, I think they have some good ideas, I just don't know how to express it.
15:17:57 [Kai]: Kai has joined #bpwg
15:17:58 [DKA]: zakim, nute jeffs
15:17:58 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'nute jeffs', DKA
15:18:04 [DKA]: zakim, mute jeffs
15:18:04 [Zakim]: jeffs should now be muted
15:18:08 [jeffs]: nuke?
15:18:22 [francois]: ACTION: jeff to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and summarize it
15:18:22 [trackbot-ng]: Sorry, couldn't find user - jeff
15:18:27 [francois]: ACTION: Sonstein to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and summarize it
15:18:28 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-719 - Take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and summarize it [on Jeffrey Sonstein - due 2008-03-27].
15:19:23 [francois]: Bryan: One exchange with francois which may be good: generalize "Minimize external script files" to "Minimize external files"
15:19:36 [francois]: ... in 5.5.6, not done in latest draft
15:20:02 [francois]: ... Very small change, but the issue of caching is an important one.
15:20:24 [francois]: ... In summary, I made a small update, if I missed anything, feel free to tell me
15:20:49 [francois]: s/, if I missed/ based on the discussions of the mailing-list, if I missed/
15:21:10 [francois]: DKA: that's where actions to come up with BPs could be useful. I have one actually.
15:21:46 [francois]: Bryan: one question: we had two inputs from ETRI: one about the ADC and the seamless paper.
15:22:07 [francois]: ... I didn't exactly know what to do with that, and just turned them into general statements
15:22:21 [francois]: ... It would be useful to expand them
15:23:16 [francois]: DKA: Yes, I think we need more text in there. The best thing would be to raise this as an issue.
15:23:57 [francois]: ACTION: Dan to raise an issue on extending BPs on ADC and seamless Korean inputs
15:23:57 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-720 - Raise an issue on extending BPs on ADC and seamless Korean inputs [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-03-27].
15:24:25 [francois]: Bryan: about improving DDC, where does that fit?
15:24:36 [francois]: DKA: we agreed there would be no DDC in the document.
15:25:28 [francois]: ... I think we're already addressing the Korean proposal here.
15:26:20 [jeffs]: looking for 5.9.4 reference in draft but not finding it... anyone point me to it?
15:27:14 [francois]: Bryan: device classification and device properties that may be important to request using the DDR.
15:27:21 [francois]: ... Any help on that would be useful.
15:27:22 [Kai]: Kai has joined #bpwg
15:27:36 [DKA]: zakim, who is here?
15:27:36 [Zakim]: On the phone I see jeffs (muted), Jason, francois, DKA, Bryan_Sullivan, drooks, SeanP, kai
15:27:38 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Kai, SeanP, matt, Jason, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, Bryan, soonho, francois, jo, trackbot-ng, dom
15:28:28 [francois]: s/device properties/appendix on device properties/
15:28:46 [Kai]: q+ to ask about ddc
15:28:57 [DKA]: ack kai
15:28:57 [Zakim]: Kai, you wanted to ask about ddc
15:29:44 [francois]: Bryan: was trying to find actionable items about both Appendix A and B (Best Practice Dependent Device Properties and Classification of Devices)
15:29:44 [jeffs]: looking for 5.9.4 URI reference in draft but not finding it... anyone point me to it?
15:30:13 [jeffs]: thanks
15:30:28 [francois]: Kai: could someone remind me why we decided against ADC?
15:30:59 [francois]: DKA: [explaining the decision]. We've gone back and forth on that one. I don't want to do that once again.
15:31:36 [francois]: ... DDC, the fact that we put it in BP1, the fact that it was misunderstood by our Korean friends, typically show it probably wasn't a good idea
15:32:17 [francois]: Kai: I just have the feeling that ADC is what people need. I think it's a mistake, making the problem worse, rather than solving anything.
15:32:46 [francois]: DKA: we can open an issue on that Kai if you want to
15:33:04 [francois]: ... I think we structured the doc in BP2 so that we don't need an ADC.
15:33:39 [francois]: Kai: I think the issue is a good idea. I'll raise one not to have the group lose time on this.
15:33:57 [Kai]: topic: mobileOK Pro
15:34:01 [francois]: ScribeNick: Bryan
15:34:04 [francois]: Scribe: Bryan
15:34:08 [Bryan]: Topic: Mobile OK Pro
15:35:04 [Bryan]: Kai: The London F2F was held, not strongly attended but very good progress made. Tackled more stringent repeatable test requirements.
15:36:28 [Bryan]: ... Interesting discussions about Mobile OK Pro and BP2, e.g. do we want RecTrack for Pro or remain a note; in the end creating guidelines imply room to comply.
15:36:49 [Bryan]: ... Good progress was made on interpreting test results.
15:37:37 [Bryan]: ... an updated document is available, but with 5 or 6 tests updated, unsure whether to put it on the website
15:37:52 [Bryan]: Dan: proposes to put a new draft on the website
15:39:12 [Bryan]: Kai: appeal to all for feedback when the new version is posted; on the text differences, and if the type of tests is valuable and we should proceed in this manner
15:39:32 [Bryan]: Dan: will you send an email for input?
15:39:35 [Bryan]: Kai: Yes
15:39:55 [Kai_]: Kai_ has joined #bpwg
15:40:24 [Bryan]: Dan: re the Note vs RecTrack, the BP1 was RecTrack but non-normative; Mobile OK was normative. A note is less potent, so maybe this should be on the RecTrack
15:40:50 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:40:55 [Bryan]: Kai: Negative on publishing as a note, but should remain on plan for RecTrack
15:41:00 [DKA]: zakim, who is here?
15:41:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see jeffs (muted), Jason, francois, DKA, Bryan_Sullivan, drooks, SeanP, kai, [IPcaller]
15:41:02 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Kai_, SeanP, matt, Jason, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, Bryan, soonho, francois, jo, trackbot-ng, dom
15:41:07 [Bryan]: Dan: any machine testable tests?
15:41:07 [jo]: zakim, IPCaller is me
15:41:07 [Zakim]: +jo; got it
15:41:26 [Bryan]: Kai: Yes, and some should be supportable by checker
15:41:28 [Kai]: Kai has joined #bpwg
15:42:29 [Bryan]: Dan: Jo, anything to add on the Pro F2F?
15:42:59 [Bryan]: Jo: not other than the general discussions
15:43:50 [Bryan]: Jo: thought Pro could be made more machine testable by incorporating BP2
15:44:00 [Kai]: Kai has joined #bpwg
15:44:03 [Bryan]: Dan: is there an issue or action to move that forward?
15:45:29 [Bryan]: Kai: suggests to resolve subjectivity of the tests, taking that away. Also repeatability. Addressing those first is proposed, then address Pro as a whole e.g. relation to BP2
15:45:39 [jeffs]: firmly agree
15:46:16 [Bryan]: Kai: no proposed actions other than what is being done
15:47:20 [jo]: Topic: Korean Task Force
15:47:21 [Bryan]: Topic: idea of having a Korean TF
15:48:11 [jo]: s/Topic: idea of having a Korean TF//
15:48:12 [Bryan]: Dan: there were ideas of having a focus group to address Korean needs, meeting in Korea, able to report and interact with the group
15:48:39 [Bryan]: Dan: trying to get that idea going
15:49:10 [jo]: [have exchanged email with Seungyun and he will take it to his colleagues and get back to us]
15:49:23 [Bryan]: Topic: Actions
15:50:19 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Mar/0061.html thesis summary
15:51:06 [Bryan]: Topic: ACTION-696
15:51:28 [yeliz]: yeliz has joined #bpwg
15:51:51 [Bryan]: Francois: the document is long, related to analysis of AJAX performance, conclusion is that things are slow, and there is wide variance in performance
15:52:25 [jo]: ACTION-696?
15:52:25 [trackbot-ng]: ACTION-696 -- François Daoust to summarise the U Helsinki masters thesis on Mobile Ajax performance with a view to including some aspects into BP 2 -- due 2008-03-11 -- OPEN
15:52:25 [trackbot-ng]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/696
15:52:40 [Bryan]: ... there seems to be some interesting material to include or reference; not anything new necessarily, but some ideas about efficiency for performance purposes
15:53:42 [Bryan]: ... we can use it as emphasis for what we have written. Extracted some info from a Yahoo document, not sure if it is related to BP or not, e.g. reduce DNS lookups
15:53:50 [Bryan]: q+
15:54:31 [Bryan]: ... not sure if these are BP for mobile, but in the constrained environment this make more sense
15:54:35 [DKA]: ack bryan
15:54:35 [francois]: ack Bryan
15:55:47 [Bryan]: Bryan: this is usually an issue for non-proxied browsers (few) and specialized web applications, but it may be useful to look at
15:56:03 [Kai_]: Kai_ has joined #bpwg
15:56:29 [Bryan]: Francois: one issue, re use of HTTP streaming, using persistent HTTP connections, may be valuable
15:56:33 [jo]: (keep-alive)
15:57:16 [Bryan]: Dan: not sure if these are elaborations, re the Seoul discussion we want clear developer focused details
15:57:42 [jeffs]: persistent connections with a device that is mobile may be problematical
15:57:51 [Bryan]: Bryan: support the reference to HTTP keep-alive, this is a common optimization that we recommend
15:58:59 [Bryan]: Dan: are you suggesting to reference this document?
15:59:43 [Bryan]: Francois: other than linking them to the existing BPs, its one more external source in the same direction
16:00:22 [Bryan]: Francois: don't recommend directly linking each BP to the external documents, just as a reference
16:01:16 [Bryan]: Dan: we will give Bryan an action to review Francois's report to extract as possible
16:01:21 [DKA]: q?
16:02:27 [jo]: ACTION-714?
16:02:27 [trackbot-ng]: ACTION-714 -- Jo Rabin to draft review of MMA Advertising -- due 2008-03-20 -- OPEN
16:02:27 [trackbot-ng]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/714
16:03:01 [Kai]: Kai has joined #bpwg
16:03:12 [jo]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Mar/0047.html jo's proposed response to MMA
16:03:38 [francois]: Regrets+ Yeliz
16:04:12 [Zakim]: -jo
16:04:25 [jo]: zakim, code?
16:04:25 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
16:04:39 [Bryan]: Jo: overall we think it is a good idea to have a global recommendation
16:04:55 [Zakim]: + +0208995aaee
16:05:11 [jo]: zakim, aaee is me
16:05:12 [Zakim]: +jo; got it
16:05:34 [Kai_]: Kai_ has joined #bpwg
16:06:06 [Bryan]: Jo: Web should be capitalized, ref MWBP, Mobile OK, Checker, reducing redirects for Ads
16:06:22 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA guidelines as drafted by H. Rabin.
16:06:32 [francois]: +1
16:06:37 [Bryan]: q+
16:06:42 [DKA]: ack bryan
16:06:47 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA guidelines as drafted by H. Rabin under ACTION-714
16:07:17 [Bryan]: Bryan: why would we recommend against caching?
16:07:40 [Kai]: Kai has joined #bpwg
16:08:09 [jeffs]: jeffs has changed the topic to:
16:08:12 [jeffs]: jeffs has changed the topic to:
16:08:13 [Bryan]: Jo: Sean's idea, retrieving an ad, not strongly held, maybe we should be silent on this
16:08:51 [jeffs]: jeffs has changed the topic to:
16:09:18 [jo]: jo has changed the topic to: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group
16:09:33 [jeffs]: sorry, hamfisted today
16:09:51 [francois]: Bryan: I think it assumes one particular advertising paradigm, but use of caching for content is typically a practice we would recommend
16:10:03 [Bryan]: Bryan: caching is a viable option if statistics are not an issue
16:10:24 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA guidelines as drafted by Jo under ACTION-714 modulo changing text on caching to say "and ensuring that the correct cache options are used"
16:11:16 [Kai]: I agree very much with Bryan
16:11:21 [Bryan]: Bryan: agrees that cache use is context-specific
16:11:27 [Bryan]: +1
16:11:30 [DKA]: +1
16:11:33 [Kai]: +1
16:11:34 [francois]: +1
16:11:37 [jeffs]: +1
16:12:34 [jeffs]: q?
16:13:15 [Bryan]: Jo: looking for Dom to send the response
16:14:20 [jo]: RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA guidelines as drafted by Jo under ACTION-714 modulo changing text on caching to say "and ensuring that the correct cache options are used"
16:14:45 [Bryan]: ACTION-710
16:14:45 [jo]: ACTION-710?
16:14:45 [trackbot-ng]: ACTION-710 -- François Daoust to test the Effect of HEAD Requests on Various Servers -- due 2008-03-13 -- OPEN
16:14:45 [trackbot-ng]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/710
16:15:14 [Bryan]: Francois: will send a report to the list, its still open
16:18:20 [jo]: [+1 to closing call at this stage]
16:18:23 [francois]: ACTION: daoust to prepare a report's form to fill to test Aaron static/dynamic example
16:18:24 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-721 - Prepare a report's form to fill to test Aaron static/dynamic example [on François Daoust - due 2008-03-27].
16:18:49 [Zakim]: -Jason
16:18:51 [Zakim]: -jeffs
16:18:52 [Zakim]: -Bryan_Sullivan
16:18:55 [Jason]: Jason has left #bpwg
16:18:56 [Zakim]: -jo
16:18:58 [Zakim]: -drooks
16:18:59 [Zakim]: -francois
16:19:01 [Zakim]: -SeanP
16:19:01 [Zakim]: -kai
16:19:02 [Zakim]: -DKA
16:19:02 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG()11:00AM has ended
16:19:04 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.585.278.aaaa, +1.503.539.aabb, francois, DKA, Jason, jeffs, Bryan_Sullivan, drooks, SeanP, +0496151aadd, kai, jo, +0208995aaee
16:19:12 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:19:12 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:19:31 [DKA]: thx, Fran$B9P(Bis!
16:23:36 [francois]: s/Topic: Actions//
16:24:37 [francois]: i/ACTION-714?/Topic: ACTION-714 Response to MMA guidelines/
16:24:57 [francois]: s/mobileOK Pro//
16:24:59 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:24:59 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:26:15 [francois]: s/Topic: ACTION-696/Topic: ACTION-696 Summary of University of Helsinki thesis/
16:26:50 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:26:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html francois
18:21:04 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #bpwg