16:58:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:58:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-owl-irc
16:58:35 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:58:41 <Zakim> +??P0
16:58:51 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:58:51 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
16:58:53 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
16:59:02 <Zakim> + +1.202.408.aaaa
16:59:09 <m_schnei> m_schnei has joined #owl
16:59:19 <Zakim> + +0186527aabb
16:59:22 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
16:59:22 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
16:59:26 <Zakim> +??P6
16:59:29 <IanH> zakim, aabb is IanH
16:59:29 <Zakim> + +31.20.525.aacc
16:59:29 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
16:59:33 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:59:33 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
16:59:36 <Rinke> Zakim, aacc is me
16:59:36 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it
16:59:41 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:59:41 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:00:27 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:00:42 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aadd
17:00:50 <DougL> DougL has joined #owl
17:00:58 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
17:01:24 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:01:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, +1.518.276.aadd, Evan_Wallace
17:01:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:01:27 <Zakim> + +1.512.342.aaee
17:01:41 <DougL> Zakim, aaee is me
17:01:41 <Zakim> +DougL; got it
17:01:58 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #owl
17:02:36 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:02:36 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
17:02:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, +1.518.276.aadd, Evan_Wallace, DougL
17:02:41 <Rinke> Zakim, aadd is baojie
17:02:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:02:47 <Zakim> +baojie; got it
17:02:53 <Zakim> +??P11
17:02:58 <m_schnei> zakim, ??P11 is me
17:03:01 <Zakim> +m_schnei; got it
17:03:01 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei
17:03:06 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:03:12 <ivan> ivan has joined #owl
17:03:14 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:03:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:03:32 <Zakim> +Alan
17:03:32 <IanH> Peter, you are scribing today?
17:03:38 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:03:38 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:03:40 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:03:46 <pfps> yes, I'm trying to dial in
17:03:54 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:04:03 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:04:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:04:17 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
17:04:43 <sandro> baojie, I don't see any message from you on IRC.    Perhaps your IRC isn't working right?   Including, I don't see you saying "Zakim, aadd is me", which it sounds like you think you said.
17:04:53 <sandro> scribe: pfps 
17:04:58 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:05:04 <baojie> i'm no
17:05:12 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:05:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [IBM]
17:05:13 <baojie> i'm on
17:05:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see Achille, ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:05:24 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is Achille
17:05:24 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
17:05:45 <pfps> topic: admin
17:06:03 <pfps> ian: agenda amendments?
17:06:25 <pfps> zhe: jim and deb don't want to vote today
17:06:53 <pfps> ian: opinions on this?
17:07:01 <pfps> doug: this is a bad precedent
17:07:06 <pfps> +1
17:07:24 <alanr> We can vote at the f2f, no?
17:07:46 <msmith> agenda says " Formal votes to publish"
17:07:48 <alanr> Is a vote pressing? I know I said we would, last week, but I'm not sure that it is.
17:07:53 <pfps> sandro: chair to email says - not on agenda therefore not vote
17:07:58 <alanr> it is necessary
17:08:02 <pfps> ian: was on agenda
17:08:06 <m_schnei> I understood  "Formal votes to publish" as a discussion *about* voting
17:08:10 <alanr> s/that it is/that it is necessary/
17:08:23 <alanr> q+
17:08:54 <m_schnei> -1 to vote today: I must not vote, because FZI has not yet come to a conclusion
17:09:44 <pfps> q+
17:09:55 <IanH> q?
17:09:57 <pfps> ian: unhappy with delay
17:10:35 <IanH> q?
17:10:39 <pfps> alan: delay until face-to-face
17:10:44 <DougL> (My other point was that the net effect will be the same as they want, namely very unlikely we will vote to accept it as is)
17:10:47 <alanr> ack alanr
17:10:54 <alanr> they did to chair
17:10:54 <m_schnei> q+
17:11:01 <IanH> ack pfps
17:11:10 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:11:10 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:11:12 <pfps> pfps: neither jim nor debora indicated regrets on the Wiki
17:11:29 <sandro> sandro: they did send details to chairs, though.
17:11:55 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:11:55 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:12:04 <pfps> michael: I thought that the agenda item was to discuss a vote, I have not discussed the issues with my colleagues
17:12:13 <sandro> m_schnei: I thought the agenda item was about TALKING ABOUT VOTING, not that we would vote to publish/not-publish. 
17:12:22 <pfps> ian: let's continue and see if the issue arises
17:12:42 <pfps> topic: minutes
17:12:45 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:12:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-owl-irc#T17-12-45
17:12:52 <pfps> PROPOSED: accept previous minutes
17:12:56 <DougL> +1 for minutes
17:13:00 <msmith> +1 for minutes
17:13:03 <bmotik> +1
17:13:09 <Achille> +1
17:13:11 <m_schnei> +1
17:13:15 <pfps> RESOLVED: accept previous minutes
17:14:15 <pfps> ian: face to face signup - lots of unknowns remain
17:14:22 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2_People
17:15:08 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/mid/20080318.165305.186101196.pfps@research.bell-labs.com
17:15:14 <m_schnei> PayPal works too
17:15:34 <pfps> ian: registration for F2F - fees for uncovered expenses
17:15:42 <m_schnei> in EUR: about 60 EUR
17:15:56 <pfps> topic: action item status
17:17:39 <IanH> q?
17:17:41 <pfps> ian: pending actions done - 103, 106, 107, 110
17:17:51 <m_schnei> q-
17:17:52 <alanr> my due actions need to be continued - been sick this week :(
17:17:55 <IanH> ack m_schnei
17:18:04 <m_schnei> q-
17:18:12 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:18:12 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:18:21 <alanr> please do
17:19:22 <bmotik> We used to close the action once people have done them.
17:19:56 <bmotik> q+
17:19:57 <pfps> ian: should we close now or close when done?
17:20:00 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:20:00 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:20:38 <alanr> +1 to boris. Add an issue for things that need to be worked on by the group
17:20:52 <pfps> boris: prefer closing when performed
17:21:07 <pfps> sandro: pending review allows the group to check that the action was done
17:22:03 <alanr> for peter's action, we have an actual issue that the action was for
17:22:53 <pfps> boris: issues serve to keep track of what happened
17:23:05 <alanr> we should have an issue: Decide on second set of drafts for publishing.
17:23:15 <pfps> ian: process needs to be refined
17:23:21 <alanr> ok
17:23:29 <IanH> q?
17:23:30 <ewallace> Document reviews are the new wrinkle to action reviews
17:23:34 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:23:42 <pfps> ian: due and overdue actions
17:23:44 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:23:44 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:24:06 <pfps> ian: action 43
17:24:18 <pfps> sandro: not done, move date two weeks
17:24:28 <alanr> continue
17:24:29 <pfps> ian: action 72
17:24:52 <pfps> alan: continue for a week
17:25:00 <pfps> ian: action 76
17:25:18 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:25:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille
17:25:20 <pfps> ian: no jeremy so continue for a week
17:25:35 <pfps> ian: action 86 and 90 - similar
17:25:54 <sandro> Present: bcuencagrau, msmith, IanH, bmotik, Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei, Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille
17:26:00 <pfps> ian: action 100 - no jim 
17:26:07 <pfps> jie: no information so continue
17:26:17 <alanr> there was mail on 102
17:26:18 <pfps> ian 101: alan - continue
17:26:25 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:26:25 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:26:29 <pfps> ian: action 102
17:26:36 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/mid/0EF30CAA69519C4CB91D01481AEA06A08034A4@judith.fzi.de
17:27:06 <pfps> michael: email today but is it adequate? review again next week
17:27:07 <alanr> we have an associated issue
17:27:09 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:27:09 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:27:15 <pfps> ian: action 104
17:27:36 <ewallace> I have to leave the meeting now.  Sorry.
17:27:39 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:28:12 <pfps> achille: started but still ongoing, done by end of this week
17:28:18 <pfps> ian: please adjust due date
17:28:28 <DougL> The Primer page is:  http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer 
17:28:37 <pfps> ian: action 104 - deb not here
17:28:44 <IanH> q?
17:28:47 <baojie> q+
17:29:18 <pfps> doug: I did a review for this action
17:29:42 <pfps> ian: is the action done
17:29:51 <IanH> q?
17:29:53 <pfps> doug: new action to look at comments
17:29:55 <alanr> deb was separate review
17:30:09 <baojie> q+
17:30:42 <pfps> jie: I did a review as well 
17:30:47 <IanH> q?
17:30:53 <IanH> ack baojie
17:30:53 <pfps> jie: deb will finish her review soon
17:31:14 <pfps> ian: leave open
17:31:19 <pfps> ian: action 108
17:31:30 <pfps> sandro: started, not finished, continue
17:31:42 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:31:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille
17:31:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Achille, ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:31:51 <pfps> ian: action 109 on bijan, no bijan so continue
17:32:12 <pfps> topic: proposals to resolve issues
17:32:28 <pfps> ian: issue 102
17:33:17 <alanr> +1 to accept
17:33:22 <pfps> pfps: proposal is to add a new kind of entity to functional syntax
17:33:29 <msmith> bmotik sent email in support
17:33:45 <bmotik> +1
17:33:47 <Rinke> +1 to accept
17:33:47 <pfps> PROPOSED: resolve issue 102 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0149.html
17:33:48 <m_schnei> q+
17:33:49 <msmith> +1 to accept as proposed
17:33:53 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:33:53 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:33:54 <IanH> q?
17:33:55 <bcuencagrau> +1
17:33:58 <DougL> +1
17:33:59 <bmotik> q+ to ask a process question
17:34:00 <alanr> we need to do the PROPOSED/ RESOLVED dance
17:34:10 <m_schnei> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/102
17:34:16 <pfps> michael: there were several emails on the issue
17:34:21 <alanr> related, but separable topic covered by another issue
17:34:32 <msmith> conversation was from the report
17:35:20 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0169.html is a typical case
17:35:38 <pfps> alan: most of the conversation was about a different issue - isolated typing triples
17:35:52 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:35:52 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:36:00 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:36:00 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:36:06 <bmotik> Yes.
17:36:08 <IanH> Q?
17:36:16 <ivan> ack m_schnei 
17:36:23 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:36:23 <Zakim> bmotik, you wanted to ask a process question
17:36:23 <ivan> ack bmotik 
17:36:44 <alanr> boris is right.
17:36:47 <pfps> boris: what is the process?
17:36:50 <pfps> q+
17:37:12 <IanH> q?
17:37:18 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:37:18 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:37:19 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/89
17:37:21 <pfps> ian: this is to resolve - 
17:37:29 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:37:29 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:38:08 <pfps> pfps: my recollection is that we are going to resolve / close.  there may be an action generated or the action may be implicit
17:38:57 <pfps> sandro: let's have a short process
17:39:00 <pfps> ian: agreed
17:39:39 <alanr> ok
17:39:52 <pfps> ian: let's vote to close and give boris an action
17:40:02 <sandro> <pfps> PROPOSED: resolve issue 102 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0149.html
17:40:05 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Update the spec to resolve ISSUE-102 as per Peter's e-mail
17:40:05 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-113 - Update the spec to resolve ISSUE-102 as per Peter's e-mail [on Boris Motik - due 2008-03-26].
17:40:08 <pfps> RESOLVED: resolve issue 102 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0149.html
17:40:34 <bmotik> I'll do it
17:40:48 <bmotik> OK, Ian will do it.
17:40:48 <pfps> sandro:  who will update tracker
17:40:52 <pfps> ian: I'll do it
17:41:00 <pfps> ian: issue 79, proposal from carsten
17:41:23 <pfps> PROPOSED: resolve issue 79 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0191.html
17:41:45 <IanH> q?
17:41:50 <pfps> q-
17:42:00 <bmotik> +1
17:42:01 <pfps> +1 to resolve
17:42:03 <alanr> +1
17:42:04 <bcuencagrau> +1
17:42:04 <msmith> +1 to resolving issue 79 as in email
17:42:05 <Rinke> +1
17:42:08 <baojie> +1
17:42:08 <DougL> +1
17:42:09 <sandro> +0
17:42:20 <pfps> RESOLVED: resolve issue 79 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0191.htm
17:42:45 <pfps> ian: issue 78
17:42:48 <m_schnei> -1 to call EL++ "OWL-Lite"
17:42:55 <ivan> -1
17:42:56 <IanH> q?
17:43:02 <alanr> -1
17:43:04 <pfps> PROPOSED: resolve issue 78 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0194.html
17:43:10 <bmotik> +1 to close as as rejected
17:43:24 <ivan> -1: do not call EL++ as OWL Lite
17:43:28 <Achille> -1
17:43:30 <baojie> -1
17:43:31 <pfps> +1 to close a rejected
17:43:32 <Rinke> +1 to resolve issue, -1 to the name OWL Lite for EL++, which I guess is a close as reject
17:43:39 <msmith> +1 to resolving issue as in email.  i.e., -1 to renaming EL++ OWL-Lite
17:43:42 <DougL> let's try this again
17:43:56 <ivan> +1 to close!
17:43:56 <Achille> +1 to reject
17:44:04 <alanr> +1 to reject
17:44:10 <m_schnei> +1 to reject
17:44:13 <DougL> +1 to accept the rejection
17:44:18 <ivan> +1 to close, reject, and do not call EL++ as OWL Lite
17:44:52 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:44:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-owl-irc#T17-44-52
17:45:26 <pfps> RESOLVED: reject issue 78 as  in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0194.html
17:45:37 <pfps> ian: issue 75
17:45:48 <Carsten> Carsten has joined #owl
17:46:08 <alanr> resolved
17:46:11 <bmotik> +1 to close as rejected
17:46:15 <Carsten> argh, messed up the time
17:46:17 <alanr> close as resolved
17:46:20 <pfps> PROPOSED: new name for fragments document solves issue 75 so it can be resolved
17:46:31 <pfps> +1
17:46:34 <alanr> +1
17:46:37 <Rinke> +1
17:46:41 <msmith> +1 to resolving issue 75
17:46:43 <DougL> +1
17:46:43 <Achille> +1
17:46:44 <m_schnei> +1
17:46:54 <pfps> RESOLVED: new name for fragments document solves issue 75 so it can be resolved (closed)
17:47:05 <Zakim> + +49.351.463.3.aaff
17:47:11 <Carsten> zakim, aaff is me
17:47:11 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
17:47:14 <IanH> q?
17:47:20 <m_schnei> Carsten proposed "My proposal is to call the document simply "Fragments of OWL"
17:47:26 <pfps> ian: issue 16
17:47:33 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:47:33 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
17:47:40 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
17:47:40 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
17:47:54 <pfps> PROPOSED: resolve issue 16 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0168.html
17:48:01 <msmith> q+ to ask boris this proposal
17:48:14 <IanH> q?
17:48:14 <pfps> boris: the resolution is to change the functional syntax to move annotations outside of axioms
17:48:42 <pfps> msmith: does this make axioms inside annotations be virtual
17:48:45 <pfps> boris: yes
17:48:51 <pfps> q+
17:49:15 <pfps> boris: we may reconsider when we do a larger view of annotations
17:49:17 <IanH> q?
17:49:20 <msmith> q-
17:49:22 <ivan> ack msmith 
17:49:25 <ivan> ack pfps 
17:49:37 <pfps> pfps: boris please reiterate answer
17:49:42 <IanH> q?
17:49:58 <m_schnei> q+
17:50:00 <pfps> boris: axioms inside annotations are not necessary in the ontology
17:50:05 <IanH> q?
17:50:06 <alanr> q+
17:50:15 <IanH> q?
17:50:26 <pfps> pfps: if this is case I vote against
17:51:06 <pfps> pfps: I want axioms in the ontology to be part of the ontology
17:51:24 <Carsten> Do I get it right that all my proposals were resolved just before I called in ? :P
17:51:28 <IanH> q?
17:51:36 <Rinke> Carsten, yes they were
17:51:42 <pfps> ian: this is supposed to be a short discussion
17:51:44 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:51:44 <Zakim> m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
17:52:03 <pfps> michael: what is the difference between issue 16 and issue 102?
17:52:06 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:52:06 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:52:15 <bmotik> There is a big difference
17:52:27 <IanH> q?
17:52:33 <IanH> ack m_schnei
17:52:39 <IanH> q?
17:52:45 <uli> uli has joined #owl
17:53:23 <pfps> alan:  can axioms be the object of an annotation
17:53:45 <bmotik> Just for the record: I don't have a problem whatsoever with Peter's requirement
17:53:57 <pfps> ian: defer to discussion list
17:54:00 <alanr> in a moment
17:54:15 <IanH> q?
17:54:20 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0189.html
17:54:23 <IanH> ack alanr
17:54:25 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:54:25 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:54:38 <pfps> alan: what about issue 86
17:54:47 <pfps> ian: no notice so put on next week's agenda
17:55:04 <pfps> topic: general discussion - publication
17:55:08 <m_schnei> 86 is not a trivial issue: I first want to think deeper about it
17:55:18 <DougL> q+
17:55:23 <IanH> q?
17:55:26 <baojie> q+
17:55:49 <pfps> doug: i made edits in the primer, and put in a few reviewer boxes, please look at them
17:56:02 <pfps> ian: is the primer close to publishable?
17:56:26 <pfps> doug: not exactly, there are missing sections, I would like them to be at least outlined
17:56:36 <IanH> q?
17:56:42 <pfps> doug: no harm to release it, but we should have something done
17:56:50 <IanH> q?
17:56:50 <Achille> +q
17:56:54 <Achille> q+
17:56:54 <pfps> jie: i reviewed the primer
17:56:57 <IanH> ack DougL
17:57:04 <IanH> ack baojie
17:57:12 <IanH> q?
17:57:18 <alanr> answering peter: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0167.html to understand that answer is addressed by Boris' solution to Issue-16, but not spoken to by issue 102, which addressed a general question of whether annotation properties are entities themselves.
17:57:45 <pfps> jie: who will be the reader? web end users may need an easier-to-read document
17:57:49 <msmith> q+ to say fragment doc is publishable pending some editorial changes from Achille and my review
17:58:13 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:58:13 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:58:14 <pfps> jie: separate section for ??
17:58:19 <IanH> q?
17:58:24 <IanH> ack Achille
17:58:39 <pfps> achille: xml is OK, I have only minor comments
17:59:22 <pfps> achille: fragments I have a lot of issues wrt OWL-R especially OWL-R Full 
17:59:39 <pfps> achille: OWL-R Full semantics hard to read
18:00:15 <IanH> q?
18:00:25 <pfps> achille: maybe move some semantics stuff to appendix
18:00:43 <IanH> ack msmith
18:00:43 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to say fragment doc is publishable pending some editorial changes from Achille and my review
18:00:48 <IanH> q?
18:00:51 <bmotik> q+
18:01:00 <IanH> q?
18:01:08 <pfps> msmith:  fragment doc is publishable pending some editorial changes from Achille and my review
18:01:13 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
18:01:13 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
18:01:18 <IanH> q?
18:01:32 <Zakim> +??P9
18:01:44 <uli> zakim, ??P9 is me
18:01:44 <Zakim> +uli; got it
18:02:11 <Achille> q+
18:02:18 <pfps> boris: purpose of OWL-R semantics section is to provide meaning of vocabulary and show the weakenings
18:02:37 <IanH> q?
18:02:42 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:02:50 <pfps> boris: if there are just rules then there is no connection to regular semantics
18:03:06 <pfps> boris:  an appendix does not have the same impact - may as well delete then
18:03:31 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:03:31 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:03:31 <IanH> q?
18:03:34 <pfps> achille: I had a different impression - independent formal presentation
18:03:41 <IanH> ack Achille
18:03:58 <pfps> boris: the section is not for precision but instead is for guidance
18:04:21 <pfps> achille: difficult to read because of dependence on OWL Full semantics
18:04:26 <IanH> q?
18:05:01 <IanH> q?
18:05:20 <pfps> boris: could provide guidance on what the section is for
18:05:49 <pfps> ian: achille - can you help to revise section?
18:06:10 <pfps> achille: OK, also part of my action item on the document
18:06:24 <pfps> boris: I can help as well
18:06:37 <pfps> ian: OK, achille will do this as part of his revision action
18:06:43 <IanH> q?
18:07:08 <alanr> Action: Alan and Ian to review the reviews
18:07:08 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-114 - And Ian to review the reviews [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-03-26].
18:07:09 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
18:07:09 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
18:07:15 <IanH> q?
18:07:30 <pfps> ian: agenda item on fragments document, but we've already been discussing it
18:07:34 <pfps> ian: formal votes?
18:07:45 <alanr> can we decide to do this at the f2f?
18:07:54 <IanH> q?
18:08:01 <pfps> ian: no document has full suite of clean reviews so defer?
18:08:09 <Rinke> I was wondering... do we need something like a quorum for voting?
18:08:19 <Rinke> I mean, officially
18:08:24 <IanH> q?
18:08:30 <pfps> sandro: xml document - only small fixes - will they be addressed quickly?
18:09:14 <pfps> ian: boris, bernardo, peter
18:09:15 <pfps> q+
18:09:23 <IanH> q?
18:09:40 <alanr> q+
18:09:47 <alanr> ack pfps
18:09:49 <pfps> pfps: I can do a quick pass to see what can be done
18:10:22 <pfps> ian: how is the process going to work - an issue for each change?
18:10:36 <pfps> sandro: editors should collaborate with reviewers
18:10:40 <pfps> q+
18:10:46 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
18:11:00 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
18:11:01 <IanH> q?
18:11:10 <pfps> ian: peter will address issues
18:11:31 <IanH> zakim, who is here
18:11:31 <Zakim> IanH, you need to end that query with '?'
18:11:40 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:11:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille, Carsten (muted),
18:11:43 <Zakim> ... uli (muted), +1.603.897.aagg
18:11:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see Zhe, uli, Carsten, Achille, ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
18:11:59 <pfps> alan: next week let's look at the documents again, and do formal votes at F2F
18:12:02 <Achille> +1 
18:12:02 <IanH> q?
18:12:11 <alanr> ack alanr
18:12:13 <pfps> ian: no particular problem with that
18:12:29 <pfps> pfps: what editors / authors
18:12:45 <pfps> sandro: editor = author
18:13:06 <pfps> ian: de facto editors = those who are working on the documents
18:13:11 <IanH> q?
18:13:16 <pfps> sandro: w3c documents have editors
18:13:20 <IanH> ack pfps
18:13:43 <sandro> Sandro: formally, in the W3C process, there are editors.   If this WG wants to call its editors "authors", that's okay.
18:13:51 <msmith> yes
18:13:55 <Zhe> Zakim, +1.603.897.aagg is me
18:13:55 <Zakim> +Zhe; got it
18:14:01 <IanH> q?
18:14:08 <pfps> pfps: who is going to interact with the reviewers?
18:14:45 <pfps> alan: what is in the scope of editorship - things seem to be going OK
18:15:04 <IanH> q?
18:15:12 <pfps> pfps: i disagree 
18:15:28 <pfps> ian: I can see both sides
18:15:35 <sandro> q?
18:15:41 <pfps> ian: we have reviews and demands from the reviews
18:15:41 <sandro> q+ to ask about editors
18:15:57 <IanH> q?
18:16:03 <IanH> ack sandro
18:16:03 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about editors
18:16:06 <pfps> ian: and no one assigned to respond
18:16:16 <Rinke> I'm in favour of clarity as well, if only to formalise the current situation...
18:16:27 <pfps> sandro: my understanding was that authors was editors
18:16:39 <IanH> q?
18:16:54 <pfps> alan: sometimes, but people have stepped up idependently
18:17:05 <IanH> q?
18:17:21 <m_schnei> may I myself fix trivial editiorial bugs such as typos?
18:17:37 <pfps> alan: no decision on what editors do
18:17:43 <sandro> q?
18:17:44 <alanr> q?
18:18:01 <IanH> q?
18:18:05 <Rinke> q?
18:18:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: WG members should edit the wiki pages as they like, if they are confident everyone will be happy with the change.
18:18:37 <pfps> alan: good idea to encourage spontaneous fixes
18:18:55 <pfps> ian: discuss at F2F
18:18:55 <msmith> +1 to clarifying at f2f
18:18:57 <pfps> q+
18:19:02 <IanH> q?
18:19:08 <pfps> alan: good idea to have F2F discussion
18:19:09 <m_schnei> IIRC, editorial process was, those people fix, "who are working on the docs"
18:19:20 <sandro> Peter: We had that discussion at the last face-to-face
18:19:23 <pfps> pfps: there was such a discussion at the last F2F
18:19:23 <IanH> q?
18:19:28 <IanH> ack pfps
18:19:30 <Rinke> +1 to clarification at f2f
18:19:39 <pfps> sandro: didn't we resolve on current situation?
18:19:40 <m_schnei> but if /I/ fix it myself, then I am working on the docs, of course ;-)
18:19:46 <alanr> yes
18:19:51 <pfps> ian: let's discuss at F2F
18:20:18 <pfps> ian: no votes to publish today
18:20:22 <alanr> let's start
18:20:33 <pfps> topic: issues
18:20:37 <pfps> ian: issue 100
18:20:43 <sandro> [ scanning http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes I see no record of talking about wikis like this.   :-(   ]
18:20:44 <IanH> q?
18:21:14 <pfps> alan: issue has not been firmly addressed, and it needs to be
18:21:15 <IanH> q?
18:21:34 <pfps> alan: can OWL 1.1 be completely embedded in RDF?
18:22:03 <IanH> q?
18:22:10 <pfps> alan: some valid OWL 1.0 DL ontologies are not completely embeddable in RDF
18:22:14 <pfps> q+
18:22:19 <bmotik> q+
18:22:22 <pfps> alan: is RDF adequate for representing OWL
18:22:30 <IanH> q?
18:23:25 <pfps> pfps: RDF was never adequate, it is not adequate, it never will be adequate
18:23:39 <IanH> q?
18:23:50 <IanH> q?
18:23:59 <IanH> ack pfps
18:24:08 <uli> Alan, what is "the same"? Syntactically identical including order?
18:24:28 <sandro> pfps: going through RDF will lose order, of course.
18:24:31 <sandro> ack bmotik 
18:24:33 <IanH> Boris?
18:24:39 <pfps> pfps: if you want complete round tripping, then you have to mirror everything in the DL in RDF, which interferes with the RDF semantics
18:24:44 <alanr> I don't understand what peter is saying
18:24:53 <pfps> boris: I agree with peter
18:25:28 <pfps> boris: RDF is a straightjacket, everything is a triple
18:25:40 <sandro> Scribe: pfps
18:25:48 <IanH> q?
18:25:49 <alanr> q+
18:25:53 <IanH> q?
18:25:54 <pfps> boris: you can reify and encode and thus retain the entirety of the syntax, but this has other consequences
18:25:54 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
18:25:57 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
18:26:12 <sandro> scribe: peter
18:26:19 <pfps> alan: I don't understand the issues
18:26:32 <pfps> alan: I was surprised with the situation in 1.0
18:26:57 <IanH> q?
18:27:00 <bmotik> q+
18:27:04 <IanH> ack alanr
18:27:08 <pfps> alan: entailment is a separate issue - it may not be accomplishable
18:27:23 <uli> q+
18:27:31 <pfps> alan: the RDF serialization should retain all of OWL
18:27:34 <pfps> q+
18:27:38 <sandro> chair: ian
18:28:02 <Rinke> what do you lose when you translate back?
18:28:04 <uli> Alan, what is "the same"
18:28:10 <Rinke> exactly
18:28:14 <uli> example?
18:28:21 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
18:28:21 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
18:28:23 <pfps> ian: peter said that everything in OWL 1.0 is serializable into RDF
18:28:26 <m_schnei> q+
18:28:34 <IanH> q?
18:28:35 <uli> q-
18:28:39 <IanH> q?
18:28:40 <pfps> alan: but the meaning may be changed - e.g., punning
18:28:57 <pfps> alan: with punning being more important this is now important
18:28:58 <alanr> q?
18:29:08 <pfps> q-
18:29:25 <pfps> boris: do you care about the semantics or not?
18:30:05 <pfps> boris: do you want syntactic equivalence, semantic equivalence, or what?
18:30:18 <uli> Alan, can you clarify in an email?
18:30:32 <pfps> alan: want roundtripping (modulo ordering that doesn't matter)
18:30:32 <IanH> q?
18:30:40 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:30:44 <DougL> (non on the queue but if I were I would say: "same" means same consequences (entailments)).
18:30:50 <m_schnei> q-
18:30:51 <alanr> uli - did you read the email already sent?
18:30:52 <pfps> boris: situation in 1.1 allows roundtripping
18:31:08 <alanr> I thought it was clarified
18:31:30 <alanr> Boris, I understand this view -  I want the decision to be all of ours
18:31:31 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
18:31:31 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
18:31:33 <pfps> boris: I would prefer to sacrifice RDF compatability instead of limiting OWL
18:31:40 <sandro> bmotik: I'd much rather sacrifice RDF syntax than throw out nice features, like negative axioms
18:31:43 <IanH> q?
18:31:48 <uli> alan - yes, but i still didn't understand your requirements, sorry
18:31:53 <IanH> q?
18:32:08 <DougL> good idea
18:32:22 <pfps> ian: more time on this issue next week
18:32:35 <pfps> ian: other issues
18:32:42 <pfps> ian: done
18:32:43 <Zakim> -DougL
18:32:44 <sandro> Meeting record is at: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.03.19/Minutes
18:32:46 <Zakim> -baojie
18:32:46 <Rinke> thanks, bye
18:32:47 <Zakim> -msmith
18:32:48 <Carsten> bye
18:32:49 <Zakim> -Achille
18:32:51 <Zhe> bye
18:32:54 <uli> alan, me too
18:32:55 <Zakim> -Carsten
18:32:56 <Zakim> -Alan
18:32:56 <Zakim> -Zhe
18:32:58 <baojie> bye
18:32:58 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:32:58 <Zakim> -Rinke
18:33:00 <Zakim> -Sandro
18:33:02 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:33:06 <uli> uli has left #owl
18:33:06 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
18:33:20 <msmith> msmith has left #owl
18:33:29 <Zakim> -m_schnei
18:33:33 <Zakim> -uli
18:34:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:34:20 <Zakim> -IanH
18:34:22 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:34:24 <Zakim> Attendees were bcuencagrau, +1.202.408.aaaa, msmith, +0186527aabb, +31.20.525.aacc, IanH, bmotik, Rinke, Sandro, +1.518.276.aadd, Evan_Wallace, +1.512.342.aaee, DougL, baojie,
18:34:26 <Zakim> ... m_schnei, Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille, +49.351.463.3.aaff, Carsten, uli, Zhe
18:35:35 <sandro> RRSAgent, make log public