IRC log of owl on 2008-03-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:25 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:58:25 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-owl-irc
16:58:35 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:58:41 [Zakim]: +??P0
16:58:51 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:58:51 [Zakim]: +bcuencagrau; got it
16:58:53 [bmotik]: bmotik has joined #owl
16:59:02 [Zakim]: + +1.202.408.aaaa
16:59:09 [m_schnei]: m_schnei has joined #owl
16:59:19 [Zakim]: + +0186527aabb
16:59:22 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, mute me
16:59:22 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should now be muted
16:59:26 [Zakim]: +??P6
16:59:29 [IanH]: zakim, aabb is IanH
16:59:29 [Zakim]: + +31.20.525.aacc
16:59:29 [Zakim]: +IanH; got it
16:59:33 [bmotik]: Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:59:33 [Zakim]: +bmotik; got it
16:59:36 [Rinke]: Zakim, aacc is me
16:59:36 [Zakim]: +Rinke; got it
16:59:41 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
16:59:41 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
17:00:27 [Zakim]: +Sandro
17:00:42 [Zakim]: + +1.518.276.aadd
17:00:50 [DougL]: DougL has joined #owl
17:00:58 [Zakim]: +Evan_Wallace
17:01:24 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:01:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, +1.518.276.aadd, Evan_Wallace
17:01:26 [Zakim]: On IRC I see DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:01:27 [Zakim]: + +1.512.342.aaee
17:01:41 [DougL]: Zakim, aaee is me
17:01:41 [Zakim]: +DougL; got it
17:01:58 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #owl
17:02:36 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:02:36 [alanr]: alanr has joined #owl
17:02:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, +1.518.276.aadd, Evan_Wallace, DougL
17:02:41 [Rinke]: Zakim, aadd is baojie
17:02:43 [Zakim]: On IRC I see baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:02:47 [Zakim]: +baojie; got it
17:02:53 [Zakim]: +??P11
17:02:58 [m_schnei]: zakim, ??P11 is me
17:03:01 [Zakim]: +m_schnei; got it
17:03:01 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:03:05 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei
17:03:06 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:03:12 [ivan]: ivan has joined #owl
17:03:14 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:03:16 [Zakim]: On IRC I see alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:03:32 [Zakim]: +Alan
17:03:32 [IanH]: Peter, you are scribing today?
17:03:38 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:03:38 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:03:40 [Zakim]: +Ivan
17:03:46 [pfps]: yes, I'm trying to dial in
17:03:54 [Zakim]: +Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:04:03 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:04:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:04:07 [Zakim]: On IRC I see ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:04:17 [Achille]: Achille has joined #owl
17:04:43 [sandro]: baojie, I don't see any message from you on IRC. Perhaps your IRC isn't working right? Including, I don't see you saying "Zakim, aadd is me", which it sounds like you think you said.
17:04:53 [sandro]: scribe: pfps
17:04:58 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
17:05:04 [baojie]: i'm no
17:05:12 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:05:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [IBM]
17:05:13 [baojie]: i'm on
17:05:15 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Achille, ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:05:24 [Achille]: Zakim, IBM is Achille
17:05:24 [Zakim]: +Achille; got it
17:05:45 [pfps]: topic: admin
17:06:03 [pfps]: ian: agenda amendments?
17:06:25 [pfps]: zhe: jim and deb don't want to vote today
17:06:53 [pfps]: ian: opinions on this?
17:07:01 [pfps]: doug: this is a bad precedent
17:07:06 [pfps]: +1
17:07:24 [alanr]: We can vote at the f2f, no?
17:07:46 [msmith]: agenda says " Formal votes to publish"
17:07:48 [alanr]: Is a vote pressing? I know I said we would, last week, but I'm not sure that it is.
17:07:53 [pfps]: sandro: chair to email says - not on agenda therefore not vote
17:07:58 [alanr]: it is necessary
17:08:02 [pfps]: ian: was on agenda
17:08:06 [m_schnei]: I understood "Formal votes to publish" as a discussion *about* voting
17:08:10 [alanr]: s/that it is/that it is necessary/
17:08:23 [alanr]: q+
17:08:54 [m_schnei]: -1 to vote today: I must not vote, because FZI has not yet come to a conclusion
17:09:44 [pfps]: q+
17:09:55 [IanH]: q?
17:09:57 [pfps]: ian: unhappy with delay
17:10:35 [IanH]: q?
17:10:39 [pfps]: alan: delay until face-to-face
17:10:44 [DougL]: (My other point was that the net effect will be the same as they want, namely very unlikely we will vote to accept it as is)
17:10:47 [alanr]: ack alanr
17:10:54 [alanr]: they did to chair
17:10:54 [m_schnei]: q+
17:11:01 [IanH]: ack pfps
17:11:10 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:11:10 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:11:12 [pfps]: pfps: neither jim nor debora indicated regrets on the Wiki
17:11:29 [sandro]: sandro: they did send details to chairs, though.
17:11:55 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:11:55 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:12:04 [pfps]: michael: I thought that the agenda item was to discuss a vote, I have not discussed the issues with my colleagues
17:12:13 [sandro]: m_schnei: I thought the agenda item was about TALKING ABOUT VOTING, not that we would vote to publish/not-publish.
17:12:22 [pfps]: ian: let's continue and see if the issue arises
17:12:42 [pfps]: topic: minutes
17:12:45 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
17:12:45 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-owl-irc#T17-12-45
17:12:52 [pfps]: PROPOSED: accept previous minutes
17:12:56 [DougL]: +1 for minutes
17:13:00 [msmith]: +1 for minutes
17:13:03 [bmotik]: +1
17:13:09 [Achille]: +1
17:13:11 [m_schnei]: +1
17:13:15 [pfps]: RESOLVED: accept previous minutes
17:14:15 [pfps]: ian: face to face signup - lots of unknowns remain
17:14:22 [msmith]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2_People
17:15:08 [msmith]: http://www.w3.org/mid/20080318.165305.186101196.pfps@research.bell-labs.com
17:15:14 [m_schnei]: PayPal works too
17:15:34 [pfps]: ian: registration for F2F - fees for uncovered expenses
17:15:42 [m_schnei]: in EUR: about 60 EUR
17:15:56 [pfps]: topic: action item status
17:17:39 [IanH]: q?
17:17:41 [pfps]: ian: pending actions done - 103, 106, 107, 110
17:17:51 [m_schnei]: q-
17:17:52 [alanr]: my due actions need to be continued - been sick this week :(
17:17:55 [IanH]: ack m_schnei
17:18:04 [m_schnei]: q-
17:18:12 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:18:12 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:18:21 [alanr]: please do
17:19:22 [bmotik]: We used to close the action once people have done them.
17:19:40 [bmotik]: I'd prefer closing actions once people have done them.
17:19:56 [bmotik]: q+
17:19:57 [pfps]: ian: should we close now or close when done?
17:20:00 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
17:20:00 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
17:20:38 [alanr]: +1 to boris. Add an issue for things that need to be worked on by the group
17:20:52 [pfps]: boris: prefer closing when performed
17:21:07 [pfps]: sandro: pending review allows the group to check that the action was done
17:22:03 [alanr]: for peter's action, we have an actual issue that the action was for
17:22:53 [pfps]: boris: issues serve to keep track of what happened
17:23:05 [alanr]: we should have an issue: Decide on second set of drafts for publishing.
17:23:15 [pfps]: ian: process needs to be refined
17:23:21 [alanr]: ok
17:23:29 [IanH]: q?
17:23:30 [ewallace]: Document reviews are the new wrinkle to action reviews
17:23:34 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:23:42 [pfps]: ian: due and overdue actions
17:23:44 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
17:23:44 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
17:24:06 [pfps]: ian: action 43
17:24:18 [pfps]: sandro: not done, move date two weeks
17:24:28 [alanr]: continue
17:24:29 [pfps]: ian: action 72
17:24:52 [pfps]: alan: continue for a week
17:25:00 [pfps]: ian: action 76
17:25:18 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:25:18 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille
17:25:20 [pfps]: ian: no jeremy so continue for a week
17:25:35 [pfps]: ian: action 86 and 90 - similar
17:25:54 [sandro]: Present: bcuencagrau, msmith, IanH, bmotik, Rinke, Sandro, baojie, Evan_Wallace, DougL, m_schnei, Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille
17:26:00 [pfps]: ian: action 100 - no jim
17:26:07 [pfps]: jie: no information so continue
17:26:17 [alanr]: there was mail on 102
17:26:18 [pfps]: ian 101: alan - continue
17:26:25 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:26:25 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:26:29 [pfps]: ian: action 102
17:26:36 [alanr]: http://www.w3.org/mid/0EF30CAA69519C4CB91D01481AEA06A08034A4@judith.fzi.de
17:27:06 [pfps]: michael: email today but is it adequate? review again next week
17:27:07 [alanr]: we have an associated issue
17:27:09 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:27:09 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:27:15 [pfps]: ian: action 104
17:27:36 [ewallace]: I have to leave the meeting now. Sorry.
17:27:39 [Zakim]: -Evan_Wallace
17:28:12 [pfps]: achille: started but still ongoing, done by end of this week
17:28:18 [pfps]: ian: please adjust due date
17:28:28 [DougL]: The Primer page is: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer
17:28:37 [pfps]: ian: action 104 - deb not here
17:28:44 [IanH]: q?
17:28:47 [baojie]: q+
17:29:18 [pfps]: doug: I did a review for this action
17:29:42 [pfps]: ian: is the action done
17:29:51 [IanH]: q?
17:29:53 [pfps]: doug: new action to look at comments
17:29:55 [alanr]: deb was separate review
17:30:09 [baojie]: q+
17:30:42 [pfps]: jie: I did a review as well
17:30:47 [IanH]: q?
17:30:53 [IanH]: ack baojie
17:30:53 [pfps]: jie: deb will finish her review soon
17:31:14 [pfps]: ian: leave open
17:31:19 [pfps]: ian: action 108
17:31:30 [pfps]: sandro: started, not finished, continue
17:31:42 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:31:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille
17:31:45 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Achille, ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:31:51 [pfps]: ian: action 109 on bijan, no bijan so continue
17:32:12 [pfps]: topic: proposals to resolve issues
17:32:28 [pfps]: ian: issue 102
17:33:17 [alanr]: +1 to accept
17:33:22 [pfps]: pfps: proposal is to add a new kind of entity to functional syntax
17:33:29 [msmith]: bmotik sent email in support
17:33:45 [bmotik]: +1
17:33:47 [Rinke]: +1 to accept
17:33:47 [pfps]: PROPOSED: resolve issue 102 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0149.html
17:33:48 [m_schnei]: q+
17:33:49 [msmith]: +1 to accept as proposed
17:33:53 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:33:53 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:33:54 [IanH]: q?
17:33:55 [bcuencagrau]: +1
17:33:58 [DougL]: +1
17:33:59 [bmotik]: q+ to ask a process question
17:34:00 [alanr]: we need to do the PROPOSED/ RESOLVED dance
17:34:10 [m_schnei]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/102
17:34:16 [pfps]: michael: there were several emails on the issue
17:34:21 [alanr]: related, but separable topic covered by another issue
17:34:32 [msmith]: conversation was from the report
17:35:20 [ivan]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0169.html is a typical case
17:35:38 [pfps]: alan: most of the conversation was about a different issue - isolated typing triples
17:35:52 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:35:52 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:36:00 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
17:36:00 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
17:36:06 [bmotik]: Yes.
17:36:08 [IanH]: Q?
17:36:16 [ivan]: ack m_schnei
17:36:23 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:36:23 [Zakim]: bmotik, you wanted to ask a process question
17:36:23 [ivan]: ack bmotik
17:36:44 [alanr]: boris is right.
17:36:47 [pfps]: boris: what is the process?
17:36:50 [pfps]: q+
17:37:12 [IanH]: q?
17:37:18 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
17:37:18 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
17:37:19 [alanr]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/89
17:37:21 [pfps]: ian: this is to resolve -
17:37:29 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
17:37:29 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
17:38:08 [pfps]: pfps: my recollection is that we are going to resolve / close. there may be an action generated or the action may be implicit
17:38:57 [pfps]: sandro: let's have a short process
17:39:00 [pfps]: ian: agreed
17:39:39 [alanr]: ok
17:39:52 [pfps]: ian: let's vote to close and give boris an action
17:40:02 [sandro]: <pfps> PROPOSED: resolve issue 102 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0149.html
17:40:05 [bmotik]: ACTION: bmotik2 to Update the spec to resolve ISSUE-102 as per Peter's e-mail
17:40:05 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-113 - Update the spec to resolve ISSUE-102 as per Peter's e-mail [on Boris Motik - due 2008-03-26].
17:40:08 [pfps]: RESOLVED: resolve issue 102 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0149.html
17:40:34 [bmotik]: I'll do it
17:40:48 [bmotik]: OK, Ian will do it.
17:40:48 [pfps]: sandro: who will update tracker
17:40:52 [pfps]: ian: I'll do it
17:41:00 [pfps]: ian: issue 79, proposal from carsten
17:41:23 [pfps]: PROPOSED: resolve issue 79 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0191.html
17:41:45 [IanH]: q?
17:41:50 [pfps]: q-
17:42:00 [bmotik]: +1
17:42:01 [pfps]: +1 to resolve
17:42:03 [alanr]: +1
17:42:04 [bcuencagrau]: +1
17:42:04 [msmith]: +1 to resolving issue 79 as in email
17:42:05 [Rinke]: +1
17:42:08 [baojie]: +1
17:42:08 [DougL]: +1
17:42:09 [sandro]: +0
17:42:20 [pfps]: RESOLVED: resolve issue 79 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0191.htm
17:42:45 [pfps]: ian: issue 78
17:42:48 [m_schnei]: -1 to call EL++ "OWL-Lite"
17:42:55 [ivan]: -1
17:42:56 [IanH]: q?
17:43:02 [alanr]: -1
17:43:04 [pfps]: PROPOSED: resolve issue 78 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0194.html
17:43:10 [bmotik]: +1 to close as as rejected
17:43:24 [ivan]: -1: do not call EL++ as OWL Lite
17:43:28 [Achille]: -1
17:43:30 [baojie]: -1
17:43:31 [pfps]: +1 to close a rejected
17:43:32 [Rinke]: +1 to resolve issue, -1 to the name OWL Lite for EL++, which I guess is a close as reject
17:43:39 [msmith]: +1 to resolving issue as in email. i.e., -1 to renaming EL++ OWL-Lite
17:43:42 [DougL]: let's try this again
17:43:56 [ivan]: +1 to close!
17:43:56 [Achille]: +1 to reject
17:44:04 [alanr]: +1 to reject
17:44:10 [m_schnei]: +1 to reject
17:44:13 [DougL]: +1 to accept the rejection
17:44:18 [ivan]: +1 to close, reject, and do not call EL++ as OWL Lite
17:44:52 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
17:44:52 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-owl-irc#T17-44-52
17:45:26 [pfps]: RESOLVED: reject issue 78 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0194.html
17:45:37 [pfps]: ian: issue 75
17:45:48 [Carsten]: Carsten has joined #owl
17:46:08 [alanr]: resolved
17:46:11 [bmotik]: +1 to close as rejected
17:46:15 [Carsten]: argh, messed up the time
17:46:17 [alanr]: close as resolved
17:46:20 [pfps]: PROPOSED: new name for fragments document solves issue 75 so it can be resolved
17:46:31 [pfps]: +1
17:46:34 [alanr]: +1
17:46:37 [Rinke]: +1
17:46:41 [msmith]: +1 to resolving issue 75
17:46:43 [DougL]: +1
17:46:43 [Achille]: +1
17:46:44 [m_schnei]: +1
17:46:54 [pfps]: RESOLVED: new name for fragments document solves issue 75 so it can be resolved (closed)
17:47:05 [Zakim]: + +49.351.463.3.aaff
17:47:11 [Carsten]: zakim, aaff is me
17:47:11 [Zakim]: +Carsten; got it
17:47:14 [IanH]: q?
17:47:20 [m_schnei]: Carsten proposed "My proposal is to call the document simply "Fragments of OWL"
17:47:26 [pfps]: ian: issue 16
17:47:33 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
17:47:33 [Zakim]: bmotik was not muted, bmotik
17:47:40 [Carsten]: zakim, mute me
17:47:40 [Zakim]: Carsten should now be muted
17:47:54 [pfps]: PROPOSED: resolve issue 16 as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0168.html
17:48:01 [msmith]: q+ to ask boris this proposal
17:48:14 [IanH]: q?
17:48:14 [pfps]: boris: the resolution is to change the functional syntax to move annotations outside of axioms
17:48:42 [pfps]: msmith: does this make axioms inside annotations be virtual
17:48:45 [pfps]: boris: yes
17:48:51 [pfps]: q+
17:49:15 [pfps]: boris: we may reconsider when we do a larger view of annotations
17:49:17 [IanH]: q?
17:49:20 [msmith]: q-
17:49:22 [ivan]: ack msmith
17:49:25 [ivan]: ack pfps
17:49:37 [pfps]: pfps: boris please reiterate answer
17:49:42 [IanH]: q?
17:49:58 [m_schnei]: q+
17:50:00 [pfps]: boris: axioms inside annotations are not necessary in the ontology
17:50:05 [IanH]: q?
17:50:06 [alanr]: q+
17:50:15 [IanH]: q?
17:50:26 [pfps]: pfps: if this is case I vote against
17:51:06 [pfps]: pfps: I want axioms in the ontology to be part of the ontology
17:51:24 [Carsten]: Do I get it right that all my proposals were resolved just before I called in ? :P
17:51:28 [IanH]: q?
17:51:36 [Rinke]: Carsten, yes they were
17:51:42 [pfps]: ian: this is supposed to be a short discussion
17:51:44 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:51:44 [Zakim]: m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
17:52:03 [pfps]: michael: what is the difference between issue 16 and issue 102?
17:52:06 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:52:06 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:52:15 [bmotik]: There is a big difference
17:52:27 [IanH]: q?
17:52:33 [IanH]: ack m_schnei
17:52:39 [IanH]: q?
17:52:45 [uli]: uli has joined #owl
17:53:23 [pfps]: alan: can axioms be the object of an annotation
17:53:45 [bmotik]: Just for the record: I don't have a problem whatsoever with Peter's requirement
17:53:57 [pfps]: ian: defer to discussion list
17:54:00 [alanr]: in a moment
17:54:15 [IanH]: q?
17:54:20 [alanr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0189.html
17:54:23 [IanH]: ack alanr
17:54:25 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
17:54:25 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
17:54:38 [pfps]: alan: what about issue 86
17:54:47 [pfps]: ian: no notice so put on next week's agenda
17:55:04 [pfps]: topic: general discussion - publication
17:55:08 [m_schnei]: 86 is not a trivial issue: I first want to think deeper about it
17:55:18 [DougL]: q+
17:55:23 [IanH]: q?
17:55:26 [baojie]: q+
17:55:49 [pfps]: doug: i made edits in the primer, and put in a few reviewer boxes, please look at them
17:56:02 [pfps]: ian: is the primer close to publishable?
17:56:26 [pfps]: doug: not exactly, there are missing sections, I would like them to be at least outlined
17:56:36 [IanH]: q?
17:56:42 [pfps]: doug: no harm to release it, but we should have something done
17:56:50 [IanH]: q?
17:56:50 [Achille]: +q
17:56:54 [Achille]: q+
17:56:54 [pfps]: jie: i reviewed the primer
17:56:57 [IanH]: ack DougL
17:57:04 [IanH]: ack baojie
17:57:12 [IanH]: q?
17:57:18 [alanr]: answering peter: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0167.html to understand that answer is addressed by Boris' solution to Issue-16, but not spoken to by issue 102, which addressed a general question of whether annotation properties are entities themselves.
17:57:45 [pfps]: jie: who will be the reader? web end users may need an easier-to-read document
17:57:49 [msmith]: q+ to say fragment doc is publishable pending some editorial changes from Achille and my review
17:58:13 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:58:13 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:58:14 [pfps]: jie: separate section for ??
17:58:19 [IanH]: q?
17:58:24 [IanH]: ack Achille
17:58:39 [pfps]: achille: xml is OK, I have only minor comments
17:59:22 [pfps]: achille: fragments I have a lot of issues wrt OWL-R especially OWL-R Full
17:59:39 [pfps]: achille: OWL-R Full semantics hard to read
18:00:15 [IanH]: q?
18:00:25 [pfps]: achille: maybe move some semantics stuff to appendix
18:00:43 [IanH]: ack msmith
18:00:43 [Zakim]: msmith, you wanted to say fragment doc is publishable pending some editorial changes from Achille and my review
18:00:48 [IanH]: q?
18:00:51 [bmotik]: q+
18:01:00 [IanH]: q?
18:01:08 [pfps]: msmith: fragment doc is publishable pending some editorial changes from Achille and my review
18:01:13 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
18:01:13 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
18:01:18 [IanH]: q?
18:01:32 [Zakim]: +??P9
18:01:44 [uli]: zakim, ??P9 is me
18:01:44 [Zakim]: +uli; got it
18:02:11 [Achille]: q+
18:02:18 [pfps]: boris: purpose of OWL-R semantics section is to provide meaning of vocabulary and show the weakenings
18:02:37 [IanH]: q?
18:02:42 [IanH]: ack bmotik
18:02:50 [pfps]: boris: if there are just rules then there is no connection to regular semantics
18:03:06 [pfps]: boris: an appendix does not have the same impact - may as well delete then
18:03:31 [uli]: zakim, mute me
18:03:31 [Zakim]: uli should now be muted
18:03:31 [IanH]: q?
18:03:34 [pfps]: achille: I had a different impression - independent formal presentation
18:03:41 [IanH]: ack Achille
18:03:58 [pfps]: boris: the section is not for precision but instead is for guidance
18:04:21 [pfps]: achille: difficult to read because of dependence on OWL Full semantics
18:04:26 [IanH]: q?
18:05:01 [IanH]: q?
18:05:20 [pfps]: boris: could provide guidance on what the section is for
18:05:49 [pfps]: ian: achille - can you help to revise section?
18:06:10 [pfps]: achille: OK, also part of my action item on the document
18:06:24 [pfps]: boris: I can help as well
18:06:37 [pfps]: ian: OK, achille will do this as part of his revision action
18:06:43 [IanH]: q?
18:07:08 [alanr]: Action: Alan and Ian to review the reviews
18:07:08 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-114 - And Ian to review the reviews [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-03-26].
18:07:09 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
18:07:09 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
18:07:15 [IanH]: q?
18:07:30 [pfps]: ian: agenda item on fragments document, but we've already been discussing it
18:07:34 [pfps]: ian: formal votes?
18:07:45 [alanr]: can we decide to do this at the f2f?
18:07:54 [IanH]: q?
18:08:01 [pfps]: ian: no document has full suite of clean reviews so defer?
18:08:09 [Rinke]: I was wondering... do we need something like a quorum for voting?
18:08:19 [Rinke]: I mean, officially
18:08:24 [IanH]: q?
18:08:30 [pfps]: sandro: xml document - only small fixes - will they be addressed quickly?
18:09:14 [pfps]: ian: boris, bernardo, peter
18:09:15 [pfps]: q+
18:09:23 [IanH]: q?
18:09:40 [alanr]: q+
18:09:47 [alanr]: ack pfps
18:09:49 [pfps]: pfps: I can do a quick pass to see what can be done
18:10:22 [pfps]: ian: how is the process going to work - an issue for each change?
18:10:36 [pfps]: sandro: editors should collaborate with reviewers
18:10:40 [pfps]: q+
18:10:46 [Zakim]: + +1.603.897.aagg
18:11:00 [Zhe]: Zhe has joined #owl
18:11:01 [IanH]: q?
18:11:10 [pfps]: ian: peter will address issues
18:11:31 [IanH]: zakim, who is here
18:11:31 [Zakim]: IanH, you need to end that query with '?'
18:11:40 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
18:11:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, IanH, bmotik (muted), Rinke, Sandro, baojie, DougL, m_schnei (muted), Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille, Carsten (muted),
18:11:43 [Zakim]: ... uli (muted), +1.603.897.aagg
18:11:44 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Zhe, uli, Carsten, Achille, ivan, alanr, baojie, DougL, m_schnei, bmotik, RRSAgent, IanH, Zakim, bcuencagrau, Rinke, ewallace, msmith, pfps, sandro, trackbot-ng
18:11:59 [pfps]: alan: next week let's look at the documents again, and do formal votes at F2F
18:12:02 [Achille]: +1
18:12:02 [IanH]: q?
18:12:11 [alanr]: ack alanr
18:12:13 [pfps]: ian: no particular problem with that
18:12:29 [pfps]: pfps: what editors / authors
18:12:45 [pfps]: sandro: editor = author
18:13:06 [pfps]: ian: de facto editors = those who are working on the documents
18:13:11 [IanH]: q?
18:13:16 [pfps]: sandro: w3c documents have editors
18:13:20 [IanH]: ack pfps
18:13:43 [sandro]: Sandro: formally, in the W3C process, there are editors. If this WG wants to call its editors "authors", that's okay.
18:13:51 [msmith]: yes
18:13:55 [Zhe]: Zakim, +1.603.897.aagg is me
18:13:55 [Zakim]: +Zhe; got it
18:14:01 [IanH]: q?
18:14:08 [pfps]: pfps: who is going to interact with the reviewers?
18:14:45 [pfps]: alan: what is in the scope of editorship - things seem to be going OK
18:15:04 [IanH]: q?
18:15:12 [pfps]: pfps: i disagree
18:15:28 [pfps]: ian: I can see both sides
18:15:35 [sandro]: q?
18:15:41 [pfps]: ian: we have reviews and demands from the reviews
18:15:41 [sandro]: q+ to ask about editors
18:15:57 [IanH]: q?
18:16:03 [IanH]: ack sandro
18:16:03 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask about editors
18:16:06 [pfps]: ian: and no one assigned to respond
18:16:16 [Rinke]: I'm in favour of clarity as well, if only to formalise the current situation...
18:16:27 [pfps]: sandro: my understanding was that authors was editors
18:16:39 [IanH]: q?
18:16:54 [pfps]: alan: sometimes, but people have stepped up idependently
18:17:05 [IanH]: q?
18:17:21 [m_schnei]: may I myself fix trivial editiorial bugs such as typos?
18:17:37 [pfps]: alan: no decision on what editors do
18:17:43 [sandro]: q?
18:17:44 [alanr]: q?
18:18:01 [IanH]: q?
18:18:05 [Rinke]: q?
18:18:29 [sandro]: PROPOSED: WG members should edit the wiki pages as they like, if they are confident everyone will be happy with the change.
18:18:37 [pfps]: alan: good idea to encourage spontaneous fixes
18:18:55 [pfps]: ian: discuss at F2F
18:18:55 [msmith]: +1 to clarifying at f2f
18:18:57 [pfps]: q+
18:19:02 [IanH]: q?
18:19:08 [pfps]: alan: good idea to have F2F discussion
18:19:09 [m_schnei]: IIRC, editorial process was, those people fix, "who are working on the docs"
18:19:20 [sandro]: Peter: We had that discussion at the last face-to-face
18:19:23 [pfps]: pfps: there was such a discussion at the last F2F
18:19:23 [IanH]: q?
18:19:28 [IanH]: ack pfps
18:19:30 [Rinke]: +1 to clarification at f2f
18:19:39 [pfps]: sandro: didn't we resolve on current situation?
18:19:40 [m_schnei]: but if /I/ fix it myself, then I am working on the docs, of course ;-)
18:19:46 [alanr]: yes
18:19:51 [pfps]: ian: let's discuss at F2F
18:20:18 [pfps]: ian: no votes to publish today
18:20:22 [alanr]: let's start
18:20:33 [pfps]: topic: issues
18:20:37 [pfps]: ian: issue 100
18:20:43 [sandro]: [ scanning http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes I see no record of talking about wikis like this. :-( ]
18:20:44 [IanH]: q?
18:21:14 [pfps]: alan: issue has not been firmly addressed, and it needs to be
18:21:15 [IanH]: q?
18:21:34 [pfps]: alan: can OWL 1.1 be completely embedded in RDF?
18:22:03 [IanH]: q?
18:22:10 [pfps]: alan: some valid OWL 1.0 DL ontologies are not completely embeddable in RDF
18:22:14 [pfps]: q+
18:22:19 [bmotik]: q+
18:22:22 [pfps]: alan: is RDF adequate for representing OWL
18:22:30 [IanH]: q?
18:23:25 [pfps]: pfps: RDF was never adequate, it is not adequate, it never will be adequate
18:23:39 [IanH]: q?
18:23:50 [IanH]: q?
18:23:59 [IanH]: ack pfps
18:24:08 [uli]: Alan, what is "the same"? Syntactically identical including order?
18:24:28 [sandro]: pfps: going through RDF will lose order, of course.
18:24:31 [sandro]: ack bmotik
18:24:33 [IanH]: Boris?
18:24:39 [pfps]: pfps: if you want complete round tripping, then you have to mirror everything in the DL in RDF, which interferes with the RDF semantics
18:24:44 [alanr]: I don't understand what peter is saying
18:24:53 [pfps]: boris: I agree with peter
18:25:28 [pfps]: boris: RDF is a straightjacket, everything is a triple
18:25:40 [sandro]: Scribe: pfps
18:25:48 [IanH]: q?
18:25:49 [alanr]: q+
18:25:53 [IanH]: q?
18:25:54 [pfps]: boris: you can reify and encode and thus retain the entirety of the syntax, but this has other consequences
18:25:54 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
18:25:57 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
18:26:12 [sandro]: scribe: peter
18:26:19 [pfps]: alan: I don't understand the issues
18:26:32 [pfps]: alan: I was surprised with the situation in 1.0
18:26:57 [IanH]: q?
18:27:00 [bmotik]: q+
18:27:04 [IanH]: ack alanr
18:27:08 [pfps]: alan: entailment is a separate issue - it may not be accomplishable
18:27:23 [uli]: q+
18:27:31 [pfps]: alan: the RDF serialization should retain all of OWL
18:27:34 [pfps]: q+
18:27:38 [sandro]: chair: ian
18:28:02 [Rinke]: what do you lose when you translate back?
18:28:04 [uli]: Alan, what is "the same"
18:28:10 [Rinke]: exactly
18:28:14 [uli]: example?
18:28:21 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
18:28:21 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
18:28:23 [pfps]: ian: peter said that everything in OWL 1.0 is serializable into RDF
18:28:26 [m_schnei]: q+
18:28:34 [IanH]: q?
18:28:35 [uli]: q-
18:28:39 [IanH]: q?
18:28:40 [pfps]: alan: but the meaning may be changed - e.g., punning
18:28:57 [pfps]: alan: with punning being more important this is now important
18:28:58 [alanr]: q?
18:29:08 [pfps]: q-
18:29:25 [pfps]: boris: do you care about the semantics or not?
18:30:05 [pfps]: boris: do you want syntactic equivalence, semantic equivalence, or what?
18:30:18 [uli]: Alan, can you clarify in an email?
18:30:32 [pfps]: alan: want roundtripping (modulo ordering that doesn't matter)
18:30:32 [IanH]: q?
18:30:40 [IanH]: ack bmotik
18:30:44 [DougL]: (non on the queue but if I were I would say: "same" means same consequences (entailments)).
18:30:50 [m_schnei]: q-
18:30:51 [alanr]: uli - did you read the email already sent?
18:30:52 [pfps]: boris: situation in 1.1 allows roundtripping
18:31:08 [alanr]: I thought it was clarified
18:31:30 [alanr]: Boris, I understand this view - I want the decision to be all of ours
18:31:31 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
18:31:31 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
18:31:33 [pfps]: boris: I would prefer to sacrifice RDF compatability instead of limiting OWL
18:31:40 [sandro]: bmotik: I'd much rather sacrifice RDF syntax than throw out nice features, like negative axioms
18:31:43 [IanH]: q?
18:31:48 [uli]: alan - yes, but i still didn't understand your requirements, sorry
18:31:53 [IanH]: q?
18:32:08 [DougL]: good idea
18:32:22 [pfps]: ian: more time on this issue next week
18:32:35 [pfps]: ian: other issues
18:32:42 [pfps]: ian: done
18:32:43 [Zakim]: -DougL
18:32:44 [sandro]: Meeting record is at: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.03.19/Minutes
18:32:46 [Zakim]: -baojie
18:32:46 [Rinke]: thanks, bye
18:32:47 [Zakim]: -msmith
18:32:48 [Carsten]: bye
18:32:49 [Zakim]: -Achille
18:32:51 [Zhe]: bye
18:32:54 [uli]: alan, me too
18:32:55 [Zakim]: -Carsten
18:32:56 [Zakim]: -Alan
18:32:56 [Zakim]: -Zhe
18:32:58 [baojie]: bye
18:32:58 [Zakim]: -bmotik
18:32:58 [Zakim]: -Rinke
18:33:00 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:33:02 [Zakim]: -Ivan
18:33:06 [uli]: uli has left #owl
18:33:06 [Zakim]: -bcuencagrau
18:33:20 [msmith]: msmith has left #owl
18:33:29 [Zakim]: -m_schnei
18:33:33 [Zakim]: -uli
18:34:18 [Zakim]: -Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:34:20 [Zakim]: -IanH
18:34:22 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:34:24 [Zakim]: Attendees were bcuencagrau, +1.202.408.aaaa, msmith, +0186527aabb, +31.20.525.aacc, IanH, bmotik, Rinke, Sandro, +1.518.276.aadd, Evan_Wallace, +1.512.342.aaee, DougL, baojie,
18:34:26 [Zakim]: ... m_schnei, Alan, Ivan, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Achille, +49.351.463.3.aaff, Carsten, uli, Zhe
18:35:35 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make log public