IRC log of bpwg on 2008-03-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:04 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-irc

14:57:06 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:57:06 [Zakim]

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14:57:08 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

14:57:08 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:57:09 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

14:57:09 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 18 March 2008

14:57:15 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM has now started

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+ +1.519.880.aaaa

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14:58:23 [francois]

Chair: francois

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14:58:45 [francois]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0007.html

14:59:08 [francois]

Regrets: Jo

14:59:13 [francois]

zakim, code?

14:59:16 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois

14:59:54 [Zakim]

+francois

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-francois

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+francois

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15:00:28 [francois]

zakim, aaaa is kemp

15:00:48 [Zakim]

+kemp; got it

15:01:12 [Zakim]

+ +0207287aabb

15:01:24 [Zakim]

+ +049211aacc

15:01:27 [rob]

zakim, aabb is rob

15:01:36 [Zakim]

+rob; got it

15:01:38 [francois]

zakim, aacc is hgerlach

15:01:52 [Zakim]

+hgerlach; got it

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+ +0777613aadd

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15:02:22 [Martin1]

zakim, aadd is MartinJ

15:02:48 [Zakim]

+MartinJ; got it

15:03:11 [Magnus]

zakim, code?

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the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus

15:03:48 [Zakim]

+ +1.630.414.aaee

15:04:00 [SeanP]

zakim, aaee is me

15:04:04 [Zakim]

+SeanP; got it

15:04:08 [Zakim]

+ +46.3.17.47.aaff

15:04:15 [Magnus]

zakim, +46 is me

15:04:16 [Zakim]

+Magnus; got it

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15:05:58 [francois]

ScribeNick: rob

15:06:00 [francois]

Scribe: rob

15:06:11 [francois]

Topic: Reminder - actions

15:06:48 [hgerlach]

where can I find the action summary/list?

15:06:52 [rob]

francois: seen lots of actions being completed and inputs to the gaps coming in - thanks

15:06:55 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 List of CT actions

15:07:23 [francois]

Topic: HTTPS rewrite (in §3.4)

15:07:31 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Feb/0026.html Andrew's text proposal

15:07:40 [rob]

... for today start with Andrew's contribution

15:07:58 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-Proxy-Response Jo's adaptation of Andrew's text

15:08:56 [Bryan]

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15:09:39 [Zakim]

+Bryan_Sullivan

15:10:34 [Zakim]

+ +0789972aagg

15:10:49 [andrews]

Zakim, aagg is andrews

15:10:49 [Zakim]

+andrews; got it

15:10:54 [kemp]

q+

15:11:02 [francois]

ack kemp

15:11:06 [rob]

rob: just want to ensure that the user must not have to be asked repeatedly if they want HTTPS adaptiong or not

15:11:44 [rob]

kemp: doesn't explicitly state have to ask all the time

15:12:09 [Bryan]

q+

15:12:25 [francois]

ack bryan

15:12:27 [rob]

hgerlach: a cookie-like session persistence could work

15:12:55 [francois]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-Proxy-Response

15:13:52 [rob]

Bryan: the advice to the end-used can come out-of-band

15:14:13 [rob]

s/end-used/end-user/

15:15:03 [rob]

... eg preferences set or terms accepted in advance

15:15:53 [rob]

andrews: how can we "annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them"?

15:16:30 [rob]

... the important thing is in the para above. Annotation is not required.

15:16:36 [Bryan]

q+

15:16:39 [francois]

ack bryan

15:17:07 [rob]

francois: Bryan, Rob, do you want to modify the "must advise" para?

15:17:53 [rob]

bryan: no, I think the allowance for this advice being "out-of-band" is already implicit so does not need repetition here

15:19:29 [rob]

... do need to recall that there is the need for someone like an e-wallet service provider to ban HTTPS re-writing on their domains and dis-allow transformation.

15:19:36 [Martin1]

q+

15:20:49 [francois]

ack martin

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15:21:58 [rob]

martin: "must provide the option to avoid transformation of the resources the links refer to" is only part of the story

15:22:42 [francois]

ACTION: martin to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation"

15:22:42 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - martin

15:22:42 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. mharris2, mjones4)

15:22:51 [francois]

ACTION: jones to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation"

15:22:51 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-717 - Propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and \"must provide the option to avoid transformation\" [on Martin Jones - due 2008-03-25].

15:22:57 [rob]

... should it be "must provide the option to avoid interception and/or transformation of the resources the links refer to" or similar?

15:23:36 [andrews]

I suggest that we remove this.

15:24:18 [rob]

andrew: I suggest we remove the para on annotating links

15:24:52 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: remove "If the proxy has transformed (reformatted) the content but not rewritten https links, it should annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them."

15:24:53 [SeanP]

OK with me to remove it\

15:25:01 [kemp]

+1

15:25:04 [rob]

+1

15:25:04 [SeanP]

+1

15:25:16 [andrews]

+1

15:25:18 [Martin1]

+1

15:25:22 [francois]

RESOLUTION: remove "If the proxy has transformed (reformatted) the content but not rewritten https links, it should annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them."

15:25:34 [francois]

Close ACTION-633

15:25:34 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-633 Write a clear draft on @@allow-https-rewrite and the need for the end-user to be aware of the situation closed

15:25:43 [francois]

Topic: no-transform and WAP gateways (in §1.2 and §3.2)

15:25:53 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Feb/0011.html fd's text and replies

15:26:19 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#d0e117 Scope ref

15:27:12 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-ServerResponse Server response ref

15:28:40 [rob]

francois: in sec 1.2, re "disrupt delivery of WML"

15:28:47 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: given that the link "in some circumstances" is fixed, leave the text for ACTION-634 as it is in 1.2 and 3.2

15:29:03 [SeanP]

+1

15:29:08 [hgerlach]

+1

15:29:10 [rob]

+1

15:29:23 [francois]

RESOLUTION: given that the link "in some circumstances" is fixed, leave the text for ACTION-634 as it is in 1.2 and 3.2

15:29:30 [francois]

Topic: Text for para 2 of 3.1.1 (ACTION-679)

15:29:39 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0008.html Martin's text and replies

15:29:43 [francois]

Close ACTION-634

15:29:43 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-634 Write a note to say something about Cache-Control: no-transform and WAP gateways closed

15:30:48 [Zakim]

-Magnus

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15:31:12 [hgerlach]

q+

15:31:37 [rob]

francois: there seems to be no way to tell if a request was from XMLHTTPRequest or from a link/URL in the page

15:32:37 [rob]

... so there is no way for a CT-proxy to positively identify XMLHTTPRequests

15:33:26 [Bryan]

q+

15:33:43 [hgerlach]

q-

15:33:52 [rob]

... Is there a need to recommend what happens in AJAX scripts?

15:33:58 [francois]

ack bryan

15:34:27 [Martin1]

q+

15:34:46 [rob]

bryan: the intent of the app designer needs to be clear in the JavaScript implementation of the app

15:35:44 [rob]

... eg the XMLHTTPRequest object has the facility to modify User-Agent

15:36:11 [francois]

ack martin

15:36:57 [rob]

martin: that's probably safest and most reliable but how many AJAX apps are going to follow these rules?

15:37:03 [Bryan]

q+

15:37:21 [rob]

... should we liase with Oen AJAX alliance?

15:38:59 [Zakim]

-hgerlach

15:39:07 [francois]

ack bryan

15:39:33 [Zakim]

+hgerlach

15:40:34 [rob]

... bryan: understand that the proxy vendors need space to innovate better solutions but it's worth making recommendations to the app designers

15:41:06 [rob]

c/... bryan/bryan/

15:41:15 [Martin1]

q+

15:41:46 [hgerlach]

q+q+

15:41:51 [francois]

ack martin

15:41:52 [rob]

... this recommendation belongs in BP2

15:42:03 [francois]

q+ hgerlach

15:42:07 [francois]

ack q+

15:43:02 [rob]

martin: if AJAX developers begin to put no-transform in routinely it may limit the amount CT-proxy providers can do?

15:44:06 [rob]

francois: agree that Cache-Control: no-transform might just confuse everything further

15:44:18 [francois]

ack hgerlach

15:44:39 [rob]

... but recommending always decorating the User-Agent to show "I'm an app on top of the browser"

15:45:01 [rob]

hgerlach: can we keep AJAX out-of-scope?

15:45:55 [rob]

... ie CT-proxies are for legacy pages. Where does AJAX start and JavaScript stop?

15:46:50 [rob]

... maybe we should specify minimum events and methods that should be supported?

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15:47:56 [rob]

francois: I think Martin's text for 3.1.1 is fine. Does anyone want to ammend this section?

15:48:17 [francois]

Irrespective of the presence of the no-transform directive, the proxy must behave transparently (q.v.) unless it is able to determine positively that the user agent is a browser. The mechanism by which the proxy recognizes the user agent as a browser should use evidence from the HTTP request, in particular the user-agent and accept headers.

15:48:50 [Bryan]

q+

15:49:13 [francois]

ack Bryan

15:49:50 [rob]

bryan: does the XHR object allow you to change User-Agent?

15:50:09 [rob]

francois: yes, the API does though I've yet to test it

15:52:36 [rob]

... I'd recommend leave 3.1.1 text as-is and recommend modifying User-Agent in another place?

15:52:50 [Bryan]

q+

15:53:21 [rob]

bryan: I think a kind of sticky transformation is dangerous

15:54:19 [rob]

... Windows Mobile had a split WAP1/WP2 stack that caused all kinds of trouble with WML URLs linking to HTML pages and vice-versa

15:55:18 [Martin1]

q+

15:55:21 [francois]

ack Bryan

15:55:26 [rob]

francois: hasn't the question about how a CT-proxy knows it's already transformed the referrer page arisen already?

15:55:30 [francois]

ack Martin1

15:55:42 [Zakim]

-kemp

15:56:06 [rob]

martin: yes, it already exists because the notion of a session with the client is so useful

15:56:17 [SeanP]

q+

15:56:27 [rob]

... it's easier as a reverse-proxy of course

15:56:27 [francois]

ack Mar

15:57:30 [francois]

ack SeanP

15:57:30 [rob]

... My wording was about when the CT-proxy might transform, noth that it HAS to transform in these conditions

15:58:37 [rob]

sean: Frequently JavaScript isn't passed down to the device because the device can't handle it

15:58:41 [SeanP]

I'm OK with the text

15:59:18 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: keep Martin's text for 3.1.1 intact but continue discussion on Ajax/XHR requests and the like

15:59:25 [Martin1]

+1

15:59:25 [rob]

+1

15:59:28 [SeanP]

+1

16:00:05 [francois]

RESOLUTION: keep Martin's text for 3.1.1 intact but continue discussion on Ajax/XHR requests and the like

16:00:25 [francois]

ACTION: daoust to summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT

16:00:25 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-718 - Summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT [on François Daoust - due 2008-03-25].

16:00:42 [francois]

Close ACTION-679

16:00:43 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-679 Propose text for para 2 of 3.1.1 closed

16:01:19 [rob]

hgerlach: we need to speed this review up

16:01:20 [DKA]

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16:01:51 [rob]

francois: indeed, we should do more work on the mailing-list so there is less for the calls

16:01:59 [Zakim]

-Bryan_Sullivan

16:02:00 [Zakim]

-hgerlach

16:02:04 [Zakim]

-SeanP

16:02:10 [hgerlach]

bye

16:02:14 [Zakim]

-francois

16:02:16 [hgerlach]

-hgerlach

16:02:16 [Zakim]

-rob

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16:02:29 [Zakim]

-andrews

16:02:42 [Zakim]

-MartinJ

16:02:44 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM has ended

16:02:45 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.519.880.aaaa, francois, kemp, +0207287aabb, +049211aacc, rob, hgerlach, +0777613aadd, MartinJ, +1.630.414.aaee, SeanP, +46.3.17.47.aaff, Magnus, Bryan_Sullivan,

16:02:47 [Zakim]

... +0789972aagg, andrews

16:03:20 [Bryan]

Francois, just speeding things up will not result in quality.... we need to ensure that things are discussed to the extent necessary

16:04:52 [francois]

I agree with you Bryan. I don't think we should speed up discussions, rather try to shift some of them to the mailing-list

16:05:10 [francois]

so that the ideas are already written somewhere...

16:05:14 [Bryan]

Thats fine as well

16:05:16 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:05:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html francois

16:05:23 [Bryan]

bye

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