13:45:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
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13:55:27 <Zakim> SW_OWL()10:00AM has now started
13:55:34 <Zakim> +??P4
13:56:01 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
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14:00:40 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:00:54 <bijan> zakim, mute me
14:00:54 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:01:01 <bijan> zakim, this is owl
14:01:01 <Zakim> bijan, this was already SW_OWL()10:00AM
14:01:03 <Zakim> ok, bijan; that matches SW_OWL()10:00AM
14:01:04 <Zakim> +Alan
14:01:08 <bijan> zakim, mute me
14:01:08 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:01:14 <bijan> zakim, who is here
14:01:18 <bijan> zakim, who is here?
14:01:22 <Zakim> bijan, you need to end that query with '?'
14:01:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Alan
14:01:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, baojie, Elisa, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, trackbot-ng
14:01:48 <bijan> zakim, you  need to lighten up; stupidly required superfluous punctuation is not user friendly
14:01:50 <Zakim> +baojie
14:01:53 <bijan> zakim, ??P4 is me
14:01:58 <Zakim> I don't understand you, bijan
14:02:04 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
14:02:13 <bijan> zakim, mute me
14:02:16 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
14:02:16 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl
14:02:17 <pfps> are you providing a memorial for Weizenbaum, bijan?
14:02:20 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
14:02:42 <bijan> Me?
14:02:45 <bijan> No.
14:02:55 <bijan> I didn't realize he'd died
14:02:57 <bijan> Sad
14:03:00 <Zakim> +??P24
14:03:12 <IanH> zakim, ??P24 is IanH
14:03:12 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
14:03:27 <pfps> yes, sad - there was a surprising amount of news chatter on his death
14:04:42 <IanH> Alan: Agenda suggestions?
14:04:51 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0181.html
14:05:36 <alanr> q?
14:05:38 <IanH> Elisa: could exploit source of existing OWL QR guide
14:05:44 <alanr> q+ to discuss accessibility
14:06:01 <IanH> Elisa: unfortunately it is a Word doc not HTML
14:06:41 <bijan> It's not hard
14:06:54 <bijan> Doubtful :)
14:06:56 <bijan> http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/%7Ebparsia/2007/comp60370/webappsandhtmlauth.pdf
14:06:57 <IanH> Alan: some issues about printing
14:07:00 <bijan> That was the result of cssing
14:07:27 <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aaaa
14:08:01 <dlm> dlm has joined #owl
14:08:15 <dlm> just joined sorry
14:08:19 <IanH> Elisa: not sure if it will be possible to do anything before F2F
14:08:26 <alanr> hi deb
14:08:32 <IanH> Alan: not time critical; better to review existing docs
14:09:57 <bijan> We've committed to its existence? I mean, we having brought it ot the wg yet...
14:11:06 <IanH> Alan: requirement for separate overview? if so what? could it be included in existing docs?
14:11:57 <IanH> Deb: most used parts are: sec 2 QR; short examples and links; guide for readers.
14:12:08 <IanH> Deb: species stuff not needed.
14:12:40 <IanH> Alan: Links and one liners covered by QR
14:13:05 <IanH> Deb: on line version could have links
14:13:29 <bijan> Structural spec now will have constructer specific examples
14:13:50 <bijan> E.g., http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Example
14:14:08 <IanH> Alan: examples? another set might be redundant. QR examples could link straight into syntax and primer. Not sure if more (redundant) examples needed.
14:14:30 <IanH> Deb: Likes simple/redundant examples.
14:15:19 <IanH> Alan: See how much of short examples can be fitted into QR and link to primer for the rest then see where we are up to?
14:16:11 <IanH> Deb: QR least contentious and covers much of what I care about
14:16:37 <IanH> Alan: Open up discussion
14:17:12 <IanH> Alan: believes most of overview functionality can be covered in QR; will be short; have commitment to effort; can see where we stand when it is done.
14:17:14 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
14:17:14 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
14:17:16 <bijan> q+
14:17:21 <alanr> ack alanr
14:17:21 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to discuss accessibility
14:17:27 <alanr> ack bijan
14:17:40 <pfps> +1 to bijan
14:18:12 <IanH> Bijan: disagrees; doesn't hear consensus
14:18:48 <IanH> Alan: What is wrong with 1/2 page index?
14:19:08 <IanH> Bijan: sceptical about ability to realise this.
14:19:14 <IanH> q+
14:19:36 <alanr> ack IanH
14:19:44 <bijan> zakim, mute me
14:19:44 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
14:20:43 <bijan> I'd have to see it, right?
14:20:44 <pfps> q+
14:20:52 <alanr> ack pfps
14:21:18 <IanH> Ian: aren't we agreeing to try and produce a suitable QR?
14:21:28 <IanH> Peter: thinks Alan is saying more
14:21:48 <IanH> Alan: No -- no commitment yet to how it will be published
14:21:59 <bijan> Then what do we need to announce? Do we just proceed by working.
14:22:03 <IanH> Peter: in that case I am OK with it
14:22:08 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
14:22:08 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
14:22:30 <IanH> Peter: i.e., with having someone producing a doc and seeing where it would fit.
14:25:12 <IanH> Bijan: I'm OK with this too.
14:25:24 <IanH> Alan: Primer news?
14:25:31 <alanr> ok by me
14:25:35 <alanr> ian?
14:25:59 <IanH> Bijan: Kendal Clarke offered to do some proof reading/editing
14:26:09 <alanr> Can Kendall joint WG for a short bit, to make it official?
14:26:13 <IanH> OK by me too
14:26:33 <baojie> q+
14:26:37 <IanH> Bijan: feedback on examples would be useful
14:27:01 <IanH> Bijan: still some gaps (how to read, ...)
14:27:03 <alanr> q+ to ask about linking wiki to feedback 
14:27:56 <alanr> q+ to ask whether we should solicit ideas for examples from list
14:27:59 <IanH> Baojie: who will be reader of primer
14:28:02 <IanH> Bijan: end users
14:28:19 <IanH> Baojie: in that case some sections may be too dense. e.g. ...
14:28:32 <IanH> Bijan: Section 2?
14:28:48 <IanH> Baojie: differences with DB
14:29:20 <alanr> +1 to making it clearer. A line at the beginning of 2 saying these are aimed at particular experts
14:29:27 <IanH> Bijan: aimed at experts in relevant areas (e.g. RDF); should be made clearer
14:30:15 <IanH> Baojie: Section 3 too dense for users unfamiliar with OWL; e.g., what is an individual, property etc. This was covered in guide.
14:30:26 <IanH> Alan: which section of guide?
14:30:40 <IanH> Baojie: 3.1 and 3.2
14:32:13 <IanH> Bijan: move some discussions to appendices?
14:32:29 <alanr> where exactly, ji?
14:32:34 <IanH> Alan: suggest sections that it isn't so important to read
14:33:28 <IanH> q+
14:33:41 <alanr> good point
14:33:51 <IanH> This is useful, but do we need teleconf time for it?
14:34:04 <alanr> up to bijan, peter
14:34:06 <pfps> no - child is correct there
14:34:33 <alanr> ack Baojie
14:34:37 <alanr> ack alanr
14:34:37 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask about linking wiki to feedback and to ask whether we should solicit ideas for examples from list
14:34:38 <IanH> And I don't want to scribe it :-)
14:34:46 <IanH> ack IanH
14:35:06 <IanH> Alan: send note to WG asking for examples?
14:35:37 <IanH> Alan: feedback from wiki to ack reviewers?
14:35:48 <IanH> Bijan: will be an ack section in doc
14:36:02 <IanH> Alan: might give encouragement
14:36:11 <IanH> Bijan: how to do it in the wiki?
14:36:28 <alanr> action: alan to add feedback to wiki page
14:36:29 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-111 - Add feedback to wiki page [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-03-24].
14:37:02 <IanH> Deb: how to add comments?
14:37:10 <IanH> Bijan: use review template in wiki
14:37:36 <bijan> See: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/XML_Serialization
14:38:08 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
14:38:12 <alanr> hi evan
14:38:49 <IanH> Bijan & Deb: discussion on examples
14:39:28 <alanr> bye, elisa
14:39:40 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
14:39:55 <alanr> i had no plan to send out a note re: primer, atm
14:40:25 <pfps> olive oil is cultural independent?
14:40:32 <IanH> Deb: culturally independent example?
14:40:39 <alanr> no cheese in japan?
14:40:46 <pfps> cheese may offend Ian  :-)
14:40:58 <IanH> Depends on the cheese :-)
14:41:10 <pfps> vegan cheese?
14:41:18 <alanr> +1 to atoms
14:41:22 <IanH> vegetarian cheese
14:41:28 <alanr> or weather
14:41:39 <IanH> Bijan: scientific example (atoms etc)
14:42:14 <pfps> vegetarian cheese? is that possible?
14:42:44 <IanH> Alan: weather?
14:42:56 <pfps> weather ends up with probabilities very soon
14:43:29 <alanr> traffic law
14:43:40 <pfps> too controversial :-)
14:43:48 <alanr> lol
14:44:45 <baojie> weather also has temporal favor: "it is sunny" depends on time
14:44:52 <alanr> http://www.thesoydailyclub.com/Groceries/CheeseAisle.cfm
14:45:38 <pfps> Cheese is a food made from the milk of cows, goats, sheep and other mammals, by coagulating the milk.  - Wikipedia
14:45:46 <IanH> Ian: I like science stuff; *any* kind of food is surely culturally dependent.
14:46:20 <IanH> Alan: reference
14:46:32 <bijan> Need examples for: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax as well
14:46:41 <IanH> Alan: still on track when you have time?
14:46:59 <IanH> Evan: any place in wiki to put it?
14:47:14 <bijan> Evan, feel free to reuse: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Structural_Reference_Experiment
14:47:17 <IanH> Alan: put it in line with your name in a comment
14:47:20 <pfps> we don't have good versioning in the Wiki, unfortunately
14:47:23 <bijan> I'm finished iwth it
14:47:39 <alanr> view source
14:47:51 <pfps> If Evan is making speculative changes, then other changes will have to be deferred.
14:48:08 <IanH> Evan: multiple syntaxes?
14:48:19 <IanH> Bijan: don't bother; can retro-fit.
14:49:58 <IanH> Alan: schedule?
14:51:55 <IanH> Evan: Monday 24th?
14:52:00 <IanH> Alan: so soon?
14:52:41 <bijan> zakim, mute me
14:52:41 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
14:52:44 <IanH> Evan: this is only for review + thoughts of what needs to be done.
14:53:15 <alanr> Action: Evan to review syntax document as reference - what is needed?
14:53:15 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-112 - Review syntax document as reference - what is needed? [on Evan Wallace - due 2008-03-24].
14:53:42 <IanH> Alan: adjourn?
14:53:43 <alanr> adjourned
14:53:43 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
14:53:46 <Zakim> -bijan
14:53:50 <Zakim> -Alan
14:53:53 <Zakim> -IanH
14:53:55 <Zakim> -baojie
14:53:55 <Zakim> - +1.518.608.aaaa
14:54:02 <alanr> zakim, draft minutes
14:54:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', alanr
14:54:04 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:54:05 <Zakim> SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended
14:54:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, Alan, baojie, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, IanH, +1.518.608.aaaa, Evan_Wallace
14:54:09 <alanr> zakim, make minutes
14:54:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', alanr
14:54:14 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:54:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/17-owl-minutes.html alanr
14:54:37 <alanr> zakim, make log public
14:54:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make log public', alanr
14:54:50 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public
14:55:09 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes public
14:55:09 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:55:18 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes world-readable
14:55:18 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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20:06:15 <s-mon_> s-mon_ has joined #owl
20:06:41 <s-mon_> sandro, i am testing the cgi-irc client, and it seems to work ok.
20:07:12 <s-mon_> i am not certain where it might have borken for Evan, but it seems worky.
20:07:59 <s-mon_> ewallace, was there any specific failure messages that might be of use?
20:08:58 <s-mon_> for me, it stalled because my /nick was already in use, so i re-attempted using a different nick and all went OK.
20:09:52 <s-mon_> we will need to consider this a client-side mattter if the cgi-irc client is worky.
20:13:36 <sandro> Simon, I'm not sure Evan is properly on IRC now.  Do you want to say this to him in e-mail, or keep me in the loop?
20:14:04 <sandro> or maybe ewallace or ekw is really here and active.....
20:15:41 <s-mon_> i will respond in e-mail.  i am going to try a couple more things, but if i cannot reproduce the failure, then we will have to say it's a phantom issue.
20:15:58 <e_wallace_prime> e_wallace_prime has joined #owl
20:16:25 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #owl
20:16:42 <e_wallace_prime> Now it's working
20:16:52 <cgi-irc> worked with default values.
20:17:11 <sandro> Is it possible you were using a nickname that was already in use, Evan?
20:17:30 <e_wallace_prime> That seems unlikely
20:18:17 <cgi-irc> even, have you tried it again using firefox?
20:19:35 <cgi-irc> i am using firefox 2.0.0.12.  i may be behind just a sukoshi.
20:19:42 <cgi-irc> on linux.
20:20:21 <e_wallace_prime> I am writing this now from the w3c irc client via firefox 2.0.0.12
20:20:31 <simon> so it works OK?
20:20:38 <simon> it would seem.
20:21:08 <e_wallace_prime> Now it does.  It consistently failed earlier on Linux and XP (both using Firefox)
20:21:35 <simon> well, it's history now.  if you continue to experience issues with it, let us know.
20:21:37 <e_wallace_prime> Thanks for looking into it.  
20:21:42 <simon> no problem.
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