IRC log of xhtml on 2008-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:02 [RRSAgent]
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13:52:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:54:01 [RolandMerrick]
RolandMerrick has changed the topic to:
13:54:08 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:54:37 [RolandMerrick]
Zakim, this will be XHTML2
13:54:37 [Zakim]
ok, RolandMerrick; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:55:31 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
13:55:38 [Zakim]
13:55:53 [Roland]
zakim, list
13:55:53 [Zakim]
I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WAI_ERTWG()9:30AM, INC_URW3()9:30AM active
13:55:56 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are I18N_TS()9:00AM, SW_SWEO()10:00AM
14:00:15 [Zakim]
14:01:55 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:02:00 [oedipus]
scribeNick: oedipus
14:02:56 [Zakim]
14:03:07 [oedipus]
14:03:15 [Roland]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
14:03:28 [Roland]
Chair: Roland
14:03:45 [Roland]
14:04:12 [Steven_]
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14:04:27 [Steven_]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:04:27 [Zakim]
ok, Steven_; the call is being made
14:04:29 [Zakim]
14:05:30 [oedipus]
regrets: tina, allessio
14:05:37 [yamx]
yamx has joined #xhtml
14:05:57 [Zakim]
14:06:06 [yamx]
Zakim, ??P25 is yamx
14:06:06 [Zakim]
+yamx; got it
14:06:11 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:06:50 [Steven_]
rrsagent, here?
14:06:50 [RRSAgent]
14:07:05 [Steven_]
rrsagent,make log public
14:07:43 [markbirbeck]
zakim code?
14:07:49 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:07:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven_
14:08:01 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
14:08:01 [Zakim]
the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:08:26 [Zakim]
14:08:52 [Steven_]
-> Previous
14:08:54 [CSB]
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14:10:01 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Outstanding Reviews
14:10:13 [oedipus]
CSS Namespace review submitted by StevenP
14:10:26 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Technical Plenary and AC Meetings Week, 20-24 October 2008
14:10:55 [oedipus]
SP: discuss briefly -- traditionally taken second slot (thurs/fri) at tech plenary -- asking if have preference, i say no
14:12:08 [oedipus]
SP: need to find out which groups we clash with -- XForms, PF -- any other groups want to avoid scheduling clash
14:12:26 [oedipus]
SP: don't care if mon/tues or thurs/fri as long as doesn't conflict with Forms and PF
14:12:33 [oedipus]
SP: tech plenary in nice
14:12:40 [oedipus]
RM: send response along SP's lines?
14:12:42 [oedipus]
GJR: +1
14:13:17 [oedipus]
ACTION Steven: attend to TPAC scheduling
14:13:27 [oedipus]
TOPIC: CURIE transition to Last Call: status
14:13:45 [oedipus]
SM: nothing from TAG -- pinged them again -- need to procede WITH their input, but if WG wants to can
14:14:17 [oedipus]
SP: can go to LC saying dealt with all issues we know of, if TAG doesn't reply, then proceed; if they don't may have to cycle back to LC
14:14:38 [oedipus]
SM: what we want to avoid -- outstanding TAG response 2 weeks late -- keep pinging but no response
14:14:58 [oedipus]
SP: other people in TAG could be contacted (whisper in ear) -- can approach henry from another angle...
14:15:05 [ShaneM]
to be clear - lots of responses. but the summary of the responses is "hang on - we are working on it"
14:15:09 [oedipus]
SP: suggestions?
14:15:38 [oedipus]
RM: dragging for quite a while -- hanging for more than a month -- give Ben a deadline -- need to procede by end of next week
14:16:00 [oedipus]
SP: henry's online now -- should i ping him
14:16:06 [oedipus]
SM: i did 10 minutes ago
14:16:27 [oedipus]
SP: specifically request earlier in week or put as preference?
14:16:52 [oedipus]
SM: don't want to impose, just preference
14:17:03 [oedipus]
RM: continue to prod henry
14:17:07 [oedipus]
SP: have his attention now
14:17:38 [oedipus]
RM: other actions -- upload final CURIEs draft; Shane to add a non-normative schema implementation to CURIE spec
14:17:51 [oedipus]
SM: wanted to ask WG what are we trying to solve there
14:17:56 [oedipus]
RM: worth talking about
14:18:16 [oedipus]
RM: want schema as well as DTD --
14:18:35 [oedipus]
SM: i had added data type to master data types definition module as part of M12n
14:18:49 [Steven_]
agenda+June FtF
14:19:00 [oedipus]
SM: separate data type namespace -- made sense to put there b/c modularization
14:19:03 [Steven_]
agenda+support of XHTML
14:19:05 [oedipus]
SM: why have 2 modules
14:19:41 [oedipus]
SM: didn't yet check in -- wanted to talk to group; not a "good, tight" definition -- placeholder right now -- complaints about "tightness" of schema defs, not sure how to make "tight"
14:19:53 [oedipus]
SM: CURIEs just strings that might have a colon in them -- thoughts?
14:20:08 [oedipus]
MB: checking my definition from work ages ago...
14:20:26 [oedipus]
MB: can't locate, but did have a regular expression for this
14:20:41 [oedipus]
RM: how does it compare wity QName built-in type?
14:21:01 [oedipus]
MB: not built-in; 2) after colon doesn't have to be NC name
14:21:08 [oedipus]
SP: essentially anything that can be in a URI
14:21:27 [oedipus]
SP: struggled to find more structure than that, but series of any chars that can be in URI -- don't know what's in prefix
14:21:36 [ShaneM]
right now I have this:
14:21:36 [ShaneM]
<!-- CURIE -->
14:21:36 [ShaneM]
<xs:simpleType name="CURIE">
14:21:36 [ShaneM]
<xs:restriction base="xs:string"/>
14:21:36 [ShaneM]
14:21:37 [ShaneM]
<xs:simpleType name="CURIEs">
14:21:39 [ShaneM]
<xs:list itemType="xh11d:CURIE"/>
14:21:41 [ShaneM]
14:21:46 [oedipus]
RM: CURIEs or list of CURIEs or what?
14:22:22 [oedipus]
SM: pasted into IRC what i have -- that's what's there right now -- safe CURIE production, might put together 2 -- URI or CURIE data type
14:22:23 [oedipus]
MB: right
14:22:39 [oedipus]
SM: don't think anything sensible can say in regular expression that anyone would have confidence in
14:23:15 [oedipus]
MB: way i did this was copy the productions for a relative URI -- even though difficult and allows anything, more correct to have that level of indirection, rather than us saying "only a string"
14:23:25 [oedipus]
MB: do have regular expression that does this, have to locate
14:23:33 [oedipus]
SM: why regular expression -- just a URI
14:23:40 [oedipus]
SP: lexical space
14:23:46 [oedipus]
SM: i believe lexical space same
14:23:53 [oedipus]
RM: no, prefix, colon, URI
14:23:58 [oedipus]
SM: don't need prefix
14:24:10 [oedipus]
RM: optional prefix, colon, URI then
14:24:19 [oedipus]
SP: URI not a CURIE and a CURIE that isn't URI
14:24:33 [oedipus]
RM: conceptually different -- mistake to call same thing
14:24:44 [oedipus]
RM: any string is what i'm getting at
14:24:48 [oedipus]
SM: any URI?
14:24:53 [oedipus]
RM: say "relative URI"
14:25:05 [oedipus]
RM: specifically refer to sub-part of URI expression -- iFragment
14:25:07 [oedipus]
SM: right
14:25:38 [oedipus]
RM: can be anything but that is conceptual rather than string literal -- can't use in schemas (x followed by y making y fundamental data type -- just doesn't exist)
14:25:41 [oedipus]
MB: assign a name
14:25:50 [oedipus]
RM: create regular expression that maps to this
14:25:58 [oedipus]
MB: URI doesn't contain regular expression
14:26:08 [ShaneM]
14:26:16 [oedipus]
SM: have to relook at XML data type schema but son't think regular expression
14:26:46 [oedipus]
MB: differences: 1) not built-in type -- built-in types don't need regular expression, but we do
14:27:14 [oedipus]
RM: how validate in schema? validate that URI is a URI
14:28:02 [oedipus]
MB: discussion just morphed into "do we need to do this" -- yes, can write regular expression, but so broad it isn't completely useful -- making it any string not the correct solution -- need a regular expression, but need to be aware that anything can be in regular expression
14:28:21 [oedipus]
RM: restraint for CURIE as whole?
14:28:27 [oedipus]
MB: done in past -- have to locate
14:28:53 [oedipus]
SM: if MB has regular expression that works, ok with string -- M12n data types makes most sense
14:29:01 [oedipus]
SM: M12n doesn't actually use it today
14:29:19 [oedipus]
SM: but we have produced modules that use it so M12n is right place (RDFa and Role need it)
14:29:40 [oedipus]
RM: document that schema in m12n spec
14:29:42 [oedipus]
SM: yes
14:30:33 [oedipus]
ACTION: MarkBirbeck - produce regular expression and URI/CURIE type
14:30:49 [oedipus]
SM: RDFa has use for that -- use case TAG most afraid of
14:31:06 [oedipus]
SM: mixing CURIEs and URIs -- that's what they are nervous about
14:31:24 [yamx]
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14:31:47 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - document that "such types exist" in m12n in document; MarkB will produce actual definitions
14:31:57 [oedipus]
RM: anything else about CURIEs?
14:32:49 [oedipus]
RM: next wednesday, decide if want to procede even if don't hear back from TAG
14:33:28 [oedipus]
SP: 2 other agenda items -- 1) june face 2 face -- created blank face to face page on wiki
14:34:07 [oedipus]
SP: contacted hotels and will get info back to WG this week
14:34:07 [Roland]
14:34:22 [oedipus]
s/SP: contacted/SM: contacted
14:34:58 [oedipus]
SP: 2) getting the message out -- year or 2 ago, some people complained that no one supporting XHTML and publishing denegrating statistics and so is a "failure"
14:35:57 [oedipus]
SP: this weekend, looked at top web sites -- went to alexa and found list of 100 most popular websites (on basis of bandwith) -- examined to see if use XHTML -- numbers far greater than that being claimed by XHTML opponents
14:36:12 [oedipus]
RM: part of confusion may be mime-type
14:37:04 [markbirbeck]
14:37:08 [oedipus]
SP: healthy proportion that did it completely right; also a reasonable proportion that did same for HTML4; then a number of pages where clearly XHTML (had all the attributes had quotes, closing slash and lower case) but not documented correctly -- remainder tag souop
14:37:24 [oedipus]
RM: BBC web site -- XHTML Strict
14:38:01 [oedipus]
SP: should do analysis properly -- look at top 100, create article about strength of support 30% use correctly, 20-25% don't declare propertly
14:38:05 [oedipus]
SP: where to publish
14:38:14 [oedipus]
RM: can start putting into wiki
14:38:23 [oedipus]
SP: if do something like that, good to fanfare it
14:38:32 [oedipus]
RM: just make available via wiki as first step
14:39:14 [oedipus]
MB: excellent to get numbers, but since XHTML spec says should use XHTML mime-type/DTD, opponents say that is not XHTML
14:40:03 [oedipus]
RM: bring all together -- with looser mime-type, we have a lot more XHTML than people are admitting; have to express that spec not so uptight or restrictive
14:42:11 [oedipus]
MB: initial claim - XHTML broken, let's get more mileage out of HTML -- now XML serialization as XHTML5 -- going against initial claims, but in an end-around manner, letting fox into chicken house
14:42:56 [oedipus]
MB: no extensibility, but one huge document that has to cater to not being XHTML; showing XHTML has traction would be useful
14:43:56 [oedipus]
RM: need to go more in direction of XHTML being rendered by HTML renderers; nothing in spec about it - XHTML renderers rare, given IE's share, should look at loosening mime type, but also means of XHTML in today's UAs being rendered by HTML engines
14:44:12 [oedipus]
SP: thought agreed to change mime-type
14:44:28 [oedipus]
SM: discussed it but received massive objections -- haven't made change publicly
14:44:40 [oedipus]
SM: changed in XHTML 1.1 working draft and people went nuts
14:44:57 [oedipus]
RM: also require an XML parser -- inhibits uptake of XHTML
14:45:03 [oedipus]
SM: don't require XML parser
14:45:12 [oedipus]
RM: XML application, though
14:45:56 [oedipus]
SM: big arguements get from WHAT WG people is that XHTML doesn't work in wild -- if but embedded CDATA sections that redo DTD doesn't work in browserX
14:46:18 [oedipus]
RM: if XML namespace used, won't work in current browser
14:46:41 [ShaneM]
XHTML 1.0 Appendix A was intended to give guidance
14:47:18 [oedipus]
RM: confusion -- people don't know where W3C is going on this -- needs more thought and energy
14:47:22 [oedipus]
SP: agree
14:47:49 [oedipus]
MB: worthwile and ongoing work -- XHTML, XML and XHTML2 -- modularized and extensible benefits
14:48:15 [Steven_]
"XHTML Documents which follow the guidelines set forth in Appendix C, "HTML Compatibility Guidelines" may be labeled with the Internet Media Type "text/html" [RFC2854], as they are compatible with most HTML browsers."
14:48:28 [oedipus]
SM: core of misunderstanding is Appendix A from XHTML 1.0 -- did a bad job there -- if going to fix, start there -- add similar appendix with XHTML 1.1 as non-normative appendix
14:48:34 [oedipus]
[general agreement[
14:48:44 [Steven_]
"Those documents, and any other document conforming to this specification, may also be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. "
14:50:16 [oedipus]
Yam; last week japanese W3C member meetings; 1 main topic HTML5 -- surprised that more than 75% of HTML5 presentation that IE8 beta2 will support some HTML5 features; some HTML5 features supported by IE8 - no committment to support whole thing in FF;
14:50:36 [oedipus]
RM: IE8 beta will improve things generally
14:51:15 [oedipus]
SP: do we think analysis worthwile?
14:51:16 [oedipus]
14:51:22 [oedipus]
SP: put it somewhere?
14:51:23 [oedipus]
14:51:36 [oedipus]
RM: put into wiki first and then sort and filter
14:51:41 [ShaneM]
s/Appendix A/Appendix C/
14:52:00 [oedipus]
SP: 30 of top 100 (majority) use XHTML
14:52:07 [ShaneM]
ACTION: Shane to migrate Appendix C to the draft XHTML 1.1 second edition
14:52:40 [oedipus]
MB: what happens in diff geographic areas and diff languages -- browsers differ geogrphically -- content could be used in diff ways for markets -- know how to ID mobile
14:52:58 [oedipus]
RM: agenda review, redux -- M12n?
14:53:34 [oedipus]
SP: collecting dates from w3c people -- communications people don't join call anymore -- hope by end of week will have range of dates from steve bratt -- then can select suitable date
14:53:51 [oedipus]
SP: Shane, do we have an editor's draft that disposes all of steve b's comments
14:53:59 [oedipus]
SM: don't remember
14:54:19 [oedipus]
SP: included pointers in request
14:54:26 [oedipus]
SM: have to investigate
14:54:35 [oedipus]
SP: please do, then can schedule call
14:54:43 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XHTML Basic 1.1
14:54:55 [oedipus]
SP: waiting on me -- trying to finish implementation reports this week
14:55:10 [oedipus]
RM: skip XHTML 1.1 SE status for now
14:55:20 [oedipus]
RM: actions against RDFa syntax
14:55:46 [oedipus]
Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree. (in process)
14:55:56 [oedipus]
SM: added note that there is a risk that humans might perceivea CURIE as a URI
14:56:31 [oedipus]
RM: Role Module - running bit behind CURIEs -- have the implementation convention and Role Attribute module changes from WAI-PF -- finally received
14:56:38 [oedipus]
RM: any difficulties
14:57:41 [Steven]
But can you spell it?
14:57:48 [oedipus]
14:58:16 [oedipus]
RM: all wai roles into xhtml namespace so don't have to be prefix qualified
14:58:43 [Steven]
That was my point
14:58:44 [oedipus]
SM: can put PF's in our namespace -- left room for it in Vocabulary document
14:58:49 [Steven]
that is not how one spells it
14:58:57 [Steven]
I think it is a bad choice for that reason
14:59:00 [oedipus]
RM: enough to procede?
14:59:20 [markbirbeck]
+1 to Steven
15:00:51 [markbirbeck]
s/MB: what happens in diff geographic/??: what happens in diff geographic/
15:01:30 [oedipus]
15:01:45 [Steven]
15:01:54 [Steven]
I don't like complementary
15:03:49 [Zakim]
15:04:13 [Zakim]
15:04:13 [markbirbeck]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:14 [Zakim]
15:04:17 [Zakim]
15:04:19 [Zakim]
15:04:24 [Zakim]
markbirbeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: yamx (92%), markbirbeck (96%)
15:05:13 [Roland]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Roland
15:05:15 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate WAI-PF verbiage to Role vocabulary
15:05:19 [Steven]
92%+96%! No wonder it was so loud!
15:05:37 [Roland]
yes please
15:05:43 [oedipus]
no problem
15:06:22 [oedipus]
GJR: by the way, PF is giving XHTML2 / Shane the final say on "complimentary" or "supplemental" or something better than "secondary" (deemed pejorative)
15:06:32 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:07:37 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
15:07:37 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck
15:07:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xhtml
15:07:41 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:08:13 [oedipus]
present+ CSB_on_IRC
15:08:15 [oedipus]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:08:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:09:10 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in :
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to attend to TPAC scheduling [1]
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkBirbeck - produce regular expression and URI/CURIE type [2]
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - document that "such types exist" in m12n in document; MarkB will produce actual definitions [3]
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane to migrate Appendix C to the draft XHTML 1.1 second edition [4]
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate WAI-PF verbiage to Role vocabulary [5]
15:09:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in