IRC log of xproc on 2008-03-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:05:59 [RRSAgent]
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15:05:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-xproc-irc
15:06:03 [Norm]
Zakim, this will be xproc
15:06:03 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
15:26:35 [Norm]
XProc WG meets on 6 Mar at 11:00 EST, http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/03/06-agenda
15:47:23 [MoZ]
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15:53:00 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:53:00 [Norm]
Date: 6 March 2008
15:53:00 [Norm]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/03/06-agenda
15:53:00 [Norm]
Meeting: 103
15:53:00 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:53:01 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:53:03 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:53:43 [ruilopes]
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15:55:30 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:55:37 [Zakim]
+Norm
15:55:45 [PGrosso]
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15:56:43 [Zakim]
+??P3
15:56:46 [Zakim]
-Norm
15:56:48 [Zakim]
+Norm
15:56:50 [ruilopes]
Zakim, ? is me
15:56:50 [Zakim]
+ruilopes; got it
15:57:37 [MoZ]
Zakim, what is the code?
15:57:37 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:58:13 [alexmilowski]
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15:58:30 [Zakim]
+ +95247aaaa
15:58:33 [MoZ]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:33 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
15:59:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.404.aabb
15:59:48 [MoZ]
Zakim, aabb is Alex
15:59:48 [Zakim]
+Alex; got it
16:00:08 [MoZ]
Zakim, who is here ?
16:00:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, ruilopes, MoZ, Alex
16:00:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmilowski, PGrosso, ruilopes, MoZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, MSM, Norm
16:00:27 [MoZ]
Zakim, Alex is alexmilowski
16:00:27 [Zakim]
+alexmilowski; got it
16:00:32 [MoZ]
Zakim, who is here ?
16:00:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, ruilopes, MoZ, alexmilowski
16:00:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmilowski, PGrosso, ruilopes, MoZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, MSM, Norm
16:00:54 [Zakim]
+[ArborText]
16:01:03 [Zakim]
+Murray_Maloney
16:01:51 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, ruilopes, MoZ, alexmilowski, PGrosso, Murray_Maloney
16:03:08 [richard]
richard has joined #xproc
16:04:38 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:04:39 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
16:04:39 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
16:05:13 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Rui, Mohamed, Alex, Paul, Richard, Murray
16:05:17 [Norm]
MSM, XProc?
16:05:41 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:05:41 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/03/06-agenda
16:05:52 [AndrewF]
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16:05:54 [Norm]
Accepted.
16:05:59 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Rui, Mohamed, Alex, Paul, Richard, Murray, Andrew
16:06:05 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
16:06:05 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/02/14-minutes
16:06:21 [Zakim]
+??P7
16:06:27 [AndrewF]
Zakim, ? is Andrew
16:06:27 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
16:06:28 [Norm]
Accepted.
16:06:36 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 13 March 2008?
16:07:09 [Norm]
Mohamed gives probably regrets, perhaps until our respective daylight savings times align
16:07:15 [Norm]
Andrew gives regrets for next week
16:07:24 [Norm]
Topic: Last call comments
16:07:30 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments.html
16:07:54 [Norm]
Topic: 58. Scope of options
16:08:08 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C058
16:08:24 [Norm]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2008Feb/0066.html
16:11:01 [Norm]
Norm attempts to summarize his message 66.
16:11:20 [Norm]
Richard: So options obscure inherited options immediately.
16:12:32 [Norm]
Norm: Yes.
16:13:21 [Norm]
Richard: How is this like XSLT?
16:13:23 [Norm]
Norm: It's the same.
16:13:37 [Norm]
s/It's/The solution I conclude with in message 66 is/
16:14:08 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone think more time on the list will help?
16:14:15 [Norm]
Mohamed: No, I don't think so.
16:14:27 [Norm]
Richard: There are three different situations in which you use p:option:
16:14:33 [Norm]
...1. When calling an atomic step
16:14:40 [Norm]
...2. When declaring an atomic step
16:14:50 [Norm]
...3. In a compound step where it counts as both.
16:15:17 [Norm]
Norm: Yes.
16:15:52 [Norm]
Richard: In the calling of an atomic step, does it bind it in there as well? If you bind 'a' on atomic step, does that get used immediately.
16:16:28 [Norm]
Norm: No. That's the subtle distinction, options in atomic steps aren't declarations.
16:17:11 [Norm]
Richard: Right. So that's the expected behavior. I think that sounds like the best we can do.
16:17:25 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone else?
16:18:47 [Norm]
Alex: Could we just start over?
16:19:41 [MSM]
zakim, please call MSM-617
16:19:41 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:19:42 [Zakim]
+MSM
16:19:50 [Norm]
Some discussion of getting rid of the current parameter mechanism and using p:param and p:with-param here.
16:19:52 [MSM]
zakim, drop MSM
16:19:52 [Zakim]
MSM is being disconnected
16:19:53 [Zakim]
-MSM
16:20:30 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Rui, Mohamed, Alex, Paul, Richard, Murray, Andrew, Michael[xx:20-]
16:20:37 [MSM]
zakim, please call MSM-617
16:20:37 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:20:39 [Zakim]
+MSM
16:22:22 [Norm]
Richard: The case of options on a subpipeline, that's more like variable than parameters.
16:23:02 [Norm]
...We're left with option on an atomic step decl is like xsl:param, option on an atomic step is like xsl:with-param, and option on a compound step is like xsl:variable
16:23:07 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I think so.
16:23:48 [Norm]
Norm: There's a sense in which I'd like to add p:variable, but I'm reluctant.
16:26:24 [Norm]
The analogy in XSLT would be:
16:26:25 [Norm]
<xsl:param name="match" select="'MATCHSTUFF'"/>
16:26:25 [Norm]
<xsl:call-template name="...">
16:26:25 [Norm]
<xsl:with-param name="match" select="'//a[@foo]'"/>
16:26:25 [Norm]
<xsl:with-param name="attribute-value" select="$match"/>
16:26:25 [Norm]
</xsl:call-template>
16:27:15 [PGrosso]
ac
16:27:32 [Norm]
Richard: Renaming the things is something we can do or not do regardless of how we decide the scoping quesiton.
16:27:45 [Norm]
...We should do this now and deal with renaming later.
16:28:20 [Norm]
Richard: I agree with Michael in principle that it would be easier if we renamed things.
16:28:40 [Norm]
Michael: Why do we not have a single name proposed for all instances of calling things?
16:29:31 [Norm]
Norm: We have the design we arrived at by consensus :-)
16:30:05 [Norm]
Richard/Michael discuss how this is related to ALGOL and Lisp
16:30:25 [Norm]
Proposed: we finesse the problem and say that the options that are in scope are all of those *declared* by preceding-siblings or *declared* by ancestors.
16:30:30 [PaulG]
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16:32:05 [Norm]
Michael: I like that, and I'd like to call 1 and 3 option and 2 with-option.
16:33:08 [Norm]
Richard: I think what I'd like is to rename options to parameters, so we have param, with-param and variable and the things we currently call parameters we call something else.
16:33:26 [Norm]
Norm: Absent a proposal that replaces our current parameter mechanism, I don't think that's practical.
16:34:34 [Norm]
Michael: Our existing parameters are things we hand off to black boxes. Right?
16:34:42 [Norm]
Norm: yes.
16:35:00 [Norm]
Michael: They are the name/value pairs I give to XSLT ot initialize xsl:params at the top-most level of the stylesheet.
16:35:07 [Norm]
...I don't know how this related to one stylesheet calling another.
16:35:12 [Norm]
s/related/relates/
16:36:16 [Norm]
...I'd be happy to use with-param for all of them
16:36:29 [Norm]
Norm: We have options and parameters and we need to keep those two bags separate
16:38:12 [Norm]
Some discussion of options and paramters and namespaces and lions and tigers and bears
16:38:27 [MSM]
my firefox has decided to launch a background process; i've got to kill it
16:38:35 [Norm]
Richard: Is it productive to continue talking about this here? If someone can come up with a better ansewr, I'd be delighted, but I doubt it's going to happen in the next 20 minutes.
16:38:57 [Norm]
Proposed: we finesse the problem and say that the options that are in scope are all of those *declared* by preceding-siblings or *declared* by ancestors.
16:39:27 [Norm]
Accepted.
16:39:36 [MSM]
so they are unprefixed in practice, but qualified in theory -- analogy to the QT function namespace
16:39:44 [Norm]
Topic: #83 Handling of system IDs
16:39:57 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C083
16:40:08 [Norm]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2008Feb/0022.html
16:41:16 [Norm]
Norm: We really need to work this one out. I'm not sure we can do it in 20 minutes, though...
16:42:03 [Norm]
Norm: Perhaps someone would take an action to come back with a proposal.
16:42:16 [Norm]
Richard proposes Henry.
16:43:32 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to try to get Henry to tell us the right answer.
16:44:04 [Norm]
Topic: #119 (editorial) p:directory-list
16:44:25 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to fix p:directory-list
16:44:59 [Norm]
Topic: #124 p:log feels clunky
16:45:10 [Norm]
http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C124
16:45:58 [Norm]
Norm: I'm not inclined to go there, it requires solving the mixing several streams of XML into a single document problem.
16:46:10 [Norm]
Proposed: Reject.
16:46:16 [Norm]
Accepted.
16:46:44 [Norm]
Topic: #125 The 'href' attribute
16:47:04 [Norm]
Norm: The commenter wonders why we call things that aren't hypertext references "href". The answer is precedent. So why not on xsl-formatter?
16:48:36 [Norm]
Richard: I don't think href is used for places that you're going to write *to*
16:49:04 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone feel strongly that we should resolve this inconsistency?
16:49:18 [MSM]
Norm (and MSM, silently): yes, it is, at least for XSLT 2.0 result documents.
16:50:02 [Norm]
Alex: Is this really inconsistent?
16:50:11 [Norm]
Mohamed: I think we should use href everywhere.
16:50:15 [Norm]
Alex: I agree.
16:50:30 [Norm]
Proposed: Rename uri on p:xsl-formatter to href
16:50:32 [Norm]
Accepted.
16:51:01 [Norm]
Topic: Comment #126 p:pipeline name attribute
16:52:01 [Norm]
Norm isn't sure he understands the question
16:52:23 [Norm]
Richard: We did talk about this before, if you wanted to name it for some purpose other than calling it, you might want to give it a name.
16:52:41 [Norm]
Mohamed: You could use the p:declare-step form if you wanted to name it, right?
16:52:43 [Norm]
Norm: yes
16:53:09 [Norm]
Norm: I'm not sure if that means we should allow a name on p:pipeline or nt.
16:53:16 [Norm]
s/or nt/or not/
16:53:45 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to point out p:declare-step to the commenter and see if they're satisfied.
16:53:58 [Norm]
Topic: #109 REsponse headers in p:http-request
16:54:03 [Norm]
s/REs/Res/
16:54:11 [Norm]
Norm: Alex, this is on your radar?
16:54:30 [Norm]
Alex: I already have an action to fix this.
16:54:51 [Norm]
...There's nothing to do there accept remove the content-type restriction.
16:55:00 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, reply to the message when you check in the changes.
16:55:21 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
16:55:27 [Norm]
None. Adjourned.
16:55:32 [Zakim]
-Murray_Maloney
16:55:51 [Zakim]
-MSM
16:55:53 [Zakim]
-Andrew
16:55:54 [Zakim]
-ruilopes
16:55:54 [Zakim]
-PGrosso
16:55:55 [Zakim]
-MoZ
16:55:55 [Zakim]
-richard
16:55:59 [PaulG]
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16:56:01 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:56:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, alexmilowski
16:56:45 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to investigate parameters to sha1 for p:hash
16:57:41 [Norm]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
16:57:46 [Norm]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-xproc-minutes.html Norm
17:05:55 [Zakim]
-Norm
17:05:56 [Zakim]
-alexmilowski
17:05:57 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
17:05:58 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, ruilopes, +95247aaaa, MoZ, +1.415.404.aabb, alexmilowski, PGrosso, Murray_Maloney, richard, Andrew, MSM
19:06:51 [Norm]
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