14:11:51 RRSAgent has joined #awwsw 14:11:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-awwsw-irc 14:11:58 Zakim has joined #awwsw 14:12:11 zakim, this is awwsw 14:12:11 ok, alanr; that matches TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM 14:12:19 Meeting: AWWSW 14:12:30 Chair: Jonatnan Rees (jar) 14:12:30 jar has joined #awwsw 14:12:36 http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes 14:12:52 topic: http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes 14:13:00 alanr has changed the topic to: http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes 14:13:31 Topic: TAG Meeting 14:14:11 jar: We discussed the progress of AWWSW at the last TAG meeting. 14:15:00 jar: Rules really resonated and helped the TAG members. "I was worried about this effort. Now I'm not." 14:15:07 +TimBL 14:15:36 timbl has joined #awwsw 14:15:47 zakim, who is here? 14:15:47 On the phone I see DavidB, +1.617.253.aaaa, Alan, TimBL 14:15:49 On IRC I see timbl, jar, Zakim, RRSAgent, alanr, dbooth, trackbot-ng 14:16:13 zakim, aaaa is jar 14:16:13 +jar; got it 14:16:16 Stuart has joined #awwsw 14:16:28 scribe dbooth 14:16:47 http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes 14:16:55 zakim, +1.617.253.aaaa is jar 14:16:55 sorry, dbooth, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.253.aaaa' 14:16:58 zakim, who is here 14:16:58 alanr, you need to end that query with '?' 14:17:00 +??P8 14:17:02 zakim, who is here? 14:17:02 On the phone I see DavidB, jar, Alan, TimBL, ??P8 14:17:04 On IRC I see Stuart, timbl, jar, Zakim, RRSAgent, alanr, dbooth, trackbot-ng 14:17:16 zakim, ??p8 is stuart 14:17:16 +stuart; got it 14:18:32 q+ 14:18:39 jar: a "potential rep" has the opportunity to be a rep of a resource. 14:18:59 ... if an http response has not actually been issued by a resource yet. 14:19:22 ... people have complained about the use of rep. So in an ont we need something that might be a rep. 14:19:48 timbl: i'm not too worried about having a separate name for something that could be a rep. 14:20:17 ... 2 questions: rel btwn an http response and a rep. does it carry anything else? 14:20:42 ... the other q: http spec says it's a rep if the status 200 says its a rep. 14:20:49 jonathan calls this a "200 responder" 14:21:09 but it is not heard as such in common discussion - there is more to it 14:21:21 jar: 2616 says a rep is an entity that goes with a 200 response, but the entity is not the whole response. it ditches the headers. 14:21:59 ... also I was trying to capture the discussion a few weeks ago, someone was worried that restricting to http responses was too limited. wanted a more general description of what a rep might be. 14:22:27 jar: let's table this and move on to rules. 14:22:36 Topic: DBooth Rules 14:22:42 http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules 14:22:44 discussion of jar's table & what's a reprsentation tabled until a later meeting 14:22:56 alanr has changed the topic to: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules 14:23:35 scribenick jar 14:25:04 the rules are a combination of 3 ontologies - uris, http, web architecture 14:25:19 uri:hasProperRacine doesn't work with open world, if the intention is that there is *no* racine for some URIs 14:25:35 ######################## AWWW ######################### 14:25:54 or do these rules assume closed world? 14:26:05 Meant to delete definition of 'resource' 14:26:09 q+ 14:26:29 How does awww:Resource differ from rdfs:Resource and/or owl:Thing? 14:26:30 rdf:label "InformationResource" should be rdf:label "information resource" 14:26:36 hasRacine, hasProperRacine explained 14:27:38 alanr: are you assuming closed world reasoning? 14:28:30 timbl: the domain statement isn't as constraining as it could be. 14:29:23 dbooth: the correct domain restriction would reflect that the URI on the left of hasProperRacine has a # 14:29:49 alanr: you need a cardinality restriction in order to say what you mean. 14:30:35 timbl: but the logic doesn't capture the entire semantics 14:31:17 dbooth: Right, the domain and range are not as restrictive as they theoretically could be. 14:31:26 it never can, so why bother trying to be so experssing in the RDFS. 14:31:29 q? 14:31:42 ack timbl 14:31:47 q- 14:31:53 ack alanr 14:32:09 q? 14:32:09 q? 14:32:09 hasProperRacine subProperty hasRacine 14:32:39 alanr: hasProperRacine is a subproperty of hasRacine 14:32:59 note for future: Need xsd:URINoFragment 14:33:16 dbooth: hasURI is the inverse of denotes. similar to log:uri 14:33:36 Style: "hasURI" is messy, preefr "URI". 14:34:18 q: is log:uri inferred by n3? 14:34:32 dbooth: hasDirectGetReply -- grounds this out 14:35:18 dbooth: hasGetReply allows for forwarding 14:36:45 alanr: if n3 deduces log:uri relationships then we can just use a type [scribe is confused] 14:37:30 timbl: issues about what has to be asserted or inferred all has to do with your test harness 14:37:32 +1 14:37:54 the thing that makes sense is to say, the system can not infer x, given y 14:37:56 timbl: request to separate out the two kinds of material in these files 14:38:28 Theer is N3 in cwm 14:38:32 s/in/and 14:38:42 alanr: if log:uri has been inferred then there should be no need to assert hasURI 14:38:44 N3 allows you to write these rules. 14:38:49 Cwm has certian built-ins 14:39:02 as well as an understaning of n3 14:39:37 alanr: what is the range of a location? looks like it's a URI 14:39:47 dbooth: it's the location: header value (string) 14:39:59 alanr: can we change the name, for clarity? a string is not a location 14:40:44 timbl: can we use a separate namespace for headers, mapped automatically from header names to ontology URIs? 14:40:44 timbl: I suggest a separate namespace for htttp headers -- hh or httph. 14:41:11 alanr: can I suggest something that strips the "has"?... 14:41:20 timbl: lots of reasons why no "has" is good 14:41:35 alanr: it's known that many people are confused by ambiguity of leaving out the "has" 14:41:41 dbooth: will do both 14:41:51 stuart: no, pick one and stick with it. 14:42:13 label "direct reply" 14:42:14 alan: please add rdf:labels to these 14:42:16 rdfs:label the other one 14:43:45 alanr: there's no language, wouldn't it make more sense for [...] to be strings? 14:44:11 timbl: mapping things to strings is a whole lot simpler, for testing purposes 14:44:40 timbl: you get a string out of the protocol, then coerce it to a string-that-is-a-URI 14:45:07 hasContentType: text/plain@en is not permissible 14:45:16 timbl: xsd:anyURI is awkward and it's not clear it adds anything 14:46:10 alanr: i was asking about has-content-type , which is marked as an rdfs:Literal, similarly status-code 14:46:54 alanr: this would permit things marked with language designators 14:47:18 alanr: if we just say it's a string, we rule out nonsensical cases such as a content-type that's in a language 14:48:13 timbl: timbl has an action item to align tabulator's ontology with this one 14:48:22 alanr: tabulator should use its own namespace 14:48:41 timbl: no, tabulator is trying to be faithful to http 14:48:42 "text/plain" 14:49:00 "text/plain"^xsd:string 14:49:12 dbooth: if these rules are going to correctly reflect HTTP, then the types should match the http spec s much as possible. I'm not sure what type the http spec says the value of the content-type header is. 14:49:37 alanr: the ^^xsd:string should be inferred if the range of the predicate is specified properly 14:49:38 "text/plain"^^xsd:string 14:49:55 timbl: no, doesn't work that way 14:49:59 IIRC typed literals and plain literals are distinct in RDF. 14:50:06 alanr: have to check that one 14:50:51 ***** let's plan to leave off at 9:55 so that we can consider next steps (homework) ***** 14:51:56 alanr: maybe change the n3 parser to that "string" missing a ^^ is impicitly a xsd:string 14:51:56 zakim, mute me 14:51:56 sorry, dbooth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:52:06 zakim, DavidB is dbooth 14:52:06 +dbooth; got it 14:52:21 alan agrees that syntax should match practice 14:53:06 *if* you make that change how would you then enter a plain literal? 14:53:22 ISSUE: use of "..." syntax in relation to strings and literatls -- table 14:53:30 ...and what would you do about all the existing N3/Turtle documents. 14:54:39 hasDirectGetReply subproperty hasGetReply 14:56:20 dbooth: next rule is questionable - it says that a 301 means that the new location URI names the same resource as the original 14:56:29 dbooth: this is based on the http spec 14:56:40 ****** it's 9:55 14:56:57 dbooth: this is a somewhat difficult area 14:57:12 q+ 14:57:14 dbooth: then what is the purpose of IR if these two things are *not* the same 14:57:21 then informationresource not an abstract object? 14:57:21 stuart: which rule? 14:57:36 ?r1 = ?r2 . 14:57:38 dbooth: I should give each rule a name, for easier reference 14:57:57 stuart: line numbers would be good. 14:58:04 dbooth: the one whose comment starts "Furthermore, 301, 302, and 307" 14:58:11 +1 14:58:21 q? 14:58:23 stuart: suggests everyone read and comment on the rule set, via email, before next meeting 14:58:30 http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#sameWorkAs 14:58:37 ack timbl 14:59:05 http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html 14:59:18 timbl: different information resources that are the same work - please read the design issues note 14:59:42 timbl: specific vs. generic IRs -- core to the way the web works 15:00:09 dbooth: if the two things should *not* be considered the same IR, then why not? 15:00:53 timbl: timbls's goal for next week: figure same-work-as into this ontology 15:01:41 timbl: you can have uris that aren't "on the web", or that are for IRs but have no reference to the web 15:02:09 [scribe may have made up 'are for IRs' in the previous. need to be careful] 15:03:49 permanent redirect shouldn't be from permanent to temporary, though 15:03:51 -stuart 15:03:53 -TimBL 15:03:55 (discussion about 301, 302, and what they say about where the resource is, now & later) 15:03:57 -Alan 15:07:10 rrsagent, make logs public 15:07:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:07:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth 15:11:12 -jar 15:11:14 -dbooth 15:11:14 TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended 15:11:15 Attendees were +1.617.253.aaaa, Alan, TimBL, jar, stuart, dbooth 15:14:50 Present: TimBL, DBooth, AlanR, Jonathan, Stuart 15:15:30 i/jar: We discussed the progress/Scribe: dbooth 15:16:01 i/jar: We discussed the progress/ScribeNick: dbooth 15:17:08 i/discussion of jar's table/Scribe: jar 15:17:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:17:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth 15:18:55 jar has joined #awwsw 17:01:50 timbl has joined #awwsw 17:03:47 Zakim has left #awwsw