IRC log of bpwg on 2008-02-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:13:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
12:13:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:13:20 [Kai]
12:13:28 [Kai]
RRSagent, bye
12:13:49 [Kai]
12:13:51 [francois]
RRSagent, make log public
12:13:55 [francois]
rrsagent, bye
12:13:55 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
14:57:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:57:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:57:42 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:57:44 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:57:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng, I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM already started
14:57:45 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:57:45 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 28 February 2008
14:57:48 [Zakim]
14:57:50 [francois]
Chair: DKA
14:58:05 [francois]
14:58:10 [jeffs]
hello... jeffs is lurking on voice-channel
14:58:29 [francois]
zakim, code?
14:58:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:59:04 [Zakim]
14:59:46 [Zakim]
14:59:50 [DKA]
DKA has joined #bpwg
15:00:10 [DKA]
zakim, who's here?
15:00:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeff, Shah, francois, ??P6
15:00:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DKA, Zakim, RRSAgent, yeliz, jeffs, achuter, jo, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:00:15 [miguel]
miguel has joined #bpwg
15:00:23 [matt]
Present- Matt
15:00:25 [francois]
zakim, ??P6 is DKA
15:00:25 [Zakim]
+DKA; got it
15:00:27 [matt]
matt has left #bpwg
15:00:33 [Zakim]
15:00:43 [dom]
Regrets+ Dom
15:00:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.267.aaaa
15:00:53 [dom]
[Regrets from me, I'm in a conflicting meeting]
15:00:55 [MartinJ]
MartinJ has joined #bpwg
15:01:09 [adam]
adam has joined #bpwg
15:01:11 [Zakim]
15:01:39 [miguel]
zakim, josema is me
15:01:39 [Zakim]
+miguel; got it
15:01:41 [Zakim]
15:01:48 [francois]
Regrets+ drooks, kemp, srowen, EdM, rob, Tony, chaals
15:01:55 [MartinJ]
zakim, ??P13 is me
15:01:55 [Zakim]
+MartinJ; got it
15:01:56 [Zakim]
+ +0207881aabb
15:01:56 [abel]
abel has joined #bpwg
15:01:56 [miguel]
zakim, abel is with me
15:01:57 [Zakim]
+abel; got it
15:01:58 [Zakim]
15:01:59 [Zakim]
- +0207881aabb
15:02:01 [achuter]
zakim, mute
15:02:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mute', achuter
15:02:05 [miguel]
zakim, nacho is with me
15:02:05 [Zakim]
+nacho; got it
15:02:06 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
15:02:06 [Zakim]
sorry, achuter, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:02:11 [nacho]
nacho has joined #bpwg
15:02:12 [francois]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, +1.781.267.aaaa, miguel, MartinJ, ??P19
15:02:13 [AlanT]
AlanT has joined #bpwg
15:02:14 [Zakim]
miguel has miguel, abel, nacho
15:02:27 [jo]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:02:29 [Zakim]
15:02:31 [Zakim]
15:02:35 [Zakim]
+ +0207881aacc
15:02:37 [Zakim]
jo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: francois (50%), ??P17 (27%), ??P19 (31%)
15:02:43 [francois]
zakim, ??P19 is achuter
15:02:44 [Zakim]
I already had ??P19 as +049303aacc, francois
15:02:49 [adam]
zakim, aacc is me
15:02:49 [Zakim]
+adam; got it
15:02:59 [skarim]
skarim has joined #bpwg
15:03:00 [francois]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, +1.781.267.aaaa, miguel, MartinJ, ??P17, adam
15:03:00 [Emmanuel]
Emmanuel has joined #bpwg
15:03:03 [Zakim]
miguel has miguel, abel, nacho
15:03:18 [francois]
zakim, aaaa is adam
15:03:18 [Zakim]
+adam; got it
15:03:18 [jo]
zakim, aacc is Adam
15:03:19 [Zakim]
sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
15:03:29 [Zakim]
15:03:37 [jo]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, adam.a, miguel, MartinJ, ??P17, adam, Kai
15:03:39 [Zakim]
miguel has miguel, abel, nacho
15:03:57 [Kai]
Kai has joined #bpwg
15:04:29 [Zakim]
15:04:34 [achuter]
zakim, ??P28 is me
15:04:34 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
15:04:51 [jo]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, adam.a, miguel, MartinJ, ??P17, adam, Kai, achuter (muted)
15:04:53 [Zakim]
miguel has miguel, abel, nacho
15:04:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Kai, Emmanuel, skarim, AlanT, nacho, abel, adam, MartinJ, miguel, DKA, Zakim, RRSAgent, yeliz, jeffs, achuter, jo, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:05:42 [jo]
zakim, ??P17 is Yeliz
15:05:42 [Zakim]
+Yeliz; got it
15:05:54 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:05:54 [Zakim]
Yeliz should now be muted
15:06:14 [DKA]
Noting potential additional agenda points for today: content tasting and modification of HTTP headers, the use of POWDER (in context of CT Task Force). Francois has suggested these might be useful to answer before the f2f next week.
15:06:27 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
15:06:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, adam.a, miguel, MartinJ, Yeliz (muted), adam, Kai, achuter (muted)
15:06:29 [Zakim]
miguel has miguel, abel, nacho
15:06:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Kai, Emmanuel, skarim, AlanT, nacho, abel, adam, MartinJ, miguel, DKA, Zakim, RRSAgent, yeliz, jeffs, achuter, jo, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:06:49 [francois]
Chair: Jo
15:07:00 [DKA]
I can scribe.
15:07:15 [DKA]
Topics: Administrivia
15:07:25 [DKA]
Topic: US clock change
15:07:35 [jo]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: BPWG Call to stay on Euro Time till March 30th
15:07:48 [DKA]
Jo: We won't be having a call next week - the next call will be the 13th.
15:07:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.265.aadd
15:08:12 [DKA]
Jo: Proposal to stay on european time - GMT - during the US time change.
15:08:15 [francois]
zakim, aadd is AlanT
15:08:15 [Zakim]
+AlanT; got it
15:08:29 [jo]
RESOLUTION: BPWG Call to stay on Euro Time till March 30th
15:08:54 [DKA]
Topic: Decision on Zaragoza
15:08:57 [francois]
ACTION: daoust to make sure next calls will stick to european time
15:08:57 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-675 - Make sure next calls will stick to european time [on Fran├žois Daoust - due 2008-03-06].
15:09:12 [DKA]
Jo: We had to make a decision quickly and the results of the poll point to 16-20 of June.
15:09:19 [DKA]
Jo: Registration will start soon.
15:09:59 [DKA]
Nacho: the formal decisions have happened from both bp and dd groups. Right now I'm waiting for some information and I will send the details to the list next week.
15:10:01 [DKA]
Jo: Thanks.
15:10:28 [DKA]
Topic: Task force report: Content Transformation
15:10:43 [francois]
-> latest draft
15:10:54 [DKA]
Francois: I would like to present the latest draft to the working group.
15:11:17 [DKA]
Francois: Summarizing: what needs to be done before we go to fpwd and afterwards.
15:11:28 [DKA]
Francois: We had a lot of discussion on scope and this is what we agreed.
15:12:18 [DKA]
Francois: First, [burst of music], extending http for communications between the different actors is not the way to go - it's beyond our charter and http isn't open for modifications - not flexible enough.
15:12:47 [DKA]
Francois: The big CT picture could take into account OMA DPE, W3C DCCI, or Powder.
15:13:09 [DKA]
Francois: So we decided to stick with existing technologies and try to avoid new http headers. It's not settled if we need one or not at the moment.
15:14:08 [DKA]
Francois: As legacy browsers are the target for the moment, we decided to leave the browser aside and so communications between CT proxy and user must be through web pages. Future browsers may add cache-control no-transform header.
15:14:26 [DKA]
Francois: These are the two main points. Now there are 2 things that need to be answered before fpwd.
15:15:11 [DKA]
Francois: First is regarding the way the CT proxy works. We haven't had time in the last call to take a resolution. How should the proxy work - should it do "content tasting" - sending an http request, looking at the answer to see if it is correct?
15:15:37 [DKA]
Francois: Does it have to change the user agent? If there is no need to change the user agent, then we probably don't need any additional http headers.
15:15:55 [jeffs]
"tasting" should read "testing"
15:16:45 [DKA]
Francois: Second big question: something introduced in last draft - use of POWDER. POWDER could be used on the server side.
15:17:22 [Kai]
q+ to say that this depends on how DRs are discoverable
15:17:35 [DKA]
Francois: do we have a dependency on powder or do we just want to reference powder. It doesn't exist - it's at fpwd at the moment. So we might run into the same problem we've had with xhtml basic - waiting for Powder.
15:18:05 [Magnus]
Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:18:21 [jo]
ack k
15:18:21 [Zakim]
Kai, you wanted to say that this depends on how DRs are discoverable
15:18:43 [Zakim]
15:18:49 [DKA]
Kai: Info on POWDER - we have 2 types of documents, the web resoruce and the description that describes the web resource.
15:18:58 [DKA]
Kai: We are discussing URI schemes.
15:20:10 [DKA]
Kai: wrt content tasting, 2 ways to do it - look at the resource itself or look at the description resources. Because of the problems we've discovered with numerical URIs, it is under discussion to close off tasting through tasting descripion resources but this is not prefered.
15:20:38 [DKA]
Jo: Any other questions on POWDER or CT?
15:20:56 [DKA]
Jo: I think we're going to spend some time in Korea discussing these issues.
15:21:24 [DKA]
Jo: We may not be able to take resolutions in Korea but we will be able to make some progress in workshopping these issues.
15:21:48 [DKA]
Topic: MobileOK Pro
15:22:33 [DKA]
Kai: draft is finished. It's out there, please look at it. In the mail I posted I mentioned the task force would ask the main group to make this a fpwd.
15:23:05 [DKA]
Kai: also emulator code has been pasdsed to Dave Rooks.
15:23:19 [DKA]
Kai: Progress has been good.
15:23:35 [DKA]
Jo: We'll be addressing this also in Korea.
15:23:48 [francois]
-> mobileOK Pro doc
15:24:25 [DKA]
Topic: Korea F2F Agenda Discussion
15:24:41 [jo]
-> Draft Agenda for F2F
15:25:34 [francois]
DKA: I put together an agenda. Problem is we'll have a restricted number of participants. I included some time to get input from Korean people
15:25:46 [francois]
... to see what would be useful to have in BP2.0
15:26:10 [francois]
... some time for the CT TF, mobileOK Pro TF
15:26:33 [francois]
... The more time we can spend flushing things in documents, the better
15:26:57 [francois]
... as opposed to taking resolutions as we'll be a small number of participants
15:27:52 [jo]
15:27:55 [jo]
15:28:29 [DKA]
Topic: Accessibility
15:28:41 [DKA]
Jo: Where did we get to?
15:28:45 [DKA]
Alan: Tab order.
15:28:50 [achuter]
15:30:13 [DKA]
Jo: Any comments?
15:30:19 [DKA]
Jo: Tables_alternatives
15:30:25 [aconnors]
aconnors has joined #bpwg
15:30:40 [DKA]
Alan: this one is odd but some users might find it more complicated.
15:30:42 [Kai]
15:31:00 [Kai]
15:31:02 [DKA]
Alan: This is in the mobile context use an alternative not on all contexts.
15:31:22 [Kai]
15:31:33 [jo]
ack k
15:31:57 [DKA]
Kai: [censored]
15:32:43 [DKA]
Jo: We need to say that there is no added benefit for users with disabilities and move on. I think we should remain silent on whether it makes it more difficult for users with disabilities.
15:32:49 [DKA]
Jo: let's move on to tables_layout
15:33:06 [DKA]
Alan: there are 2 aspecst - using a table for layout might cause incorrect reading order.
15:33:33 [DKA]
Alan: If you use tables for layout, it's difficult for the user to modifyt the layout by using their own stylesheet.
15:33:54 [DKA]
Jo: Most mobile browsers do support tables so the comment about non-support might not be correct.
15:34:01 [jeffs]
do not use tables for layout
15:34:18 [DKA]
Jo: Moving on to nested_tables
15:34:25 [DKA]
15:34:41 [DKA]
15:35:14 [DKA]
Alan: if tables are nested for layout then for a screen reading user it makes it very confusing. So it's best avoided.
15:35:36 [Zakim]
15:35:44 [DKA]
Jo: Other comments on tables_nested?
15:35:51 [DKA]
Jo: Tables_support?
15:35:56 [DKA]
Jo: No added benefit.
15:35:58 [DKA]
Alan: yes.
15:36:01 [DKA]
Jo: testing.
15:36:18 [DKA]
[long pause]
15:36:46 [DKA]
Jo: It helps to some degree but it won't give you a benefit.
15:36:50 [DKA]
Jo: Other comments?
15:36:55 [DKA]
Jo: Thematic Consistency?
15:36:56 [Zakim]
15:37:44 [DKA]
Jo: I think this could do with more. Can we put a pin in this discussion and we can raise an issue on the list to discuss it?
15:37:53 [MartinJ]
zakim, ??P10 is me
15:37:53 [Zakim]
+MartinJ; got it
15:38:03 [DKA]
Alan: the concept is the same - access the same content from a range of devices and also with a range of user abilities.
15:39:37 [achuter]
ACTION: achuter Discuss on the list THEMATIC_CONSISTENCY
15:39:37 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-676 - Discuss on the list THEMATIC_CONSISTENCY [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-03-06].
15:39:40 [DKA]
Jo: The point of the best practice is the other way around - what we're saying you shouldn't do is to provide pages with different meanings from the same URI depending on the circumstances of the access. Example of which provides mobile-friendly content if you're on a mobile devices and instructions for use of mobile if you're on a PC - this is not best practice.
15:39:46 [DKA]
Jo: Moving on - URIs.
15:40:18 [DKA]
Alan: Users especially with motor disabilities might have difficulty typing them in the same way that a user of a mobile device has trouble typing them on a keypad.
15:40:25 [DKA]
Jo: Anybody got anything else?
15:40:31 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
15:40:31 [Zakim]
Yeliz should no longer be muted
15:40:31 [DKA]
Jo: Moving on - use of color.
15:41:14 [jeffs]
add anything on greyscale?
15:41:18 [Kai]
if you are curious
15:41:22 [DKA]
Alan: User of the mobile device might not see the color because of bad ambient lighting, other users might not see the color at all either because they can't see or because they have color perception deficits. So it's comon cause.
15:41:43 [Emmanuel]
I am only on IRC not dialed into call
15:41:59 [DKA]
Jeff: Putting in 2 worth - choosing colors that go to greyscale properly.
15:42:13 [DKA]
Jo: We don't have that in BP1 but maybe we could put it in BP2.
15:42:21 [DKA]
Jeff: Yes I tell my students there.
15:42:29 [DKA]
I suggest you send something to the list on that, Jeff?
15:42:52 [jeffs]
will send something to list on color choices and decay to greyscale
15:42:54 [DKA]
Alan: it's not about using high contrast colors but rather not using colors to convey information (e.g. red means stop).
15:42:58 [DKA]
15:43:25 [DKA]
Jo: We had a formula in the BP document but we removed it at one point.
15:43:58 [achuter]
Under URIS change d in WCAG 1.0. to 2.0
15:44:05 [DKA]
Yeliz: UI wanted to say about keep URIs of entry points short - that should refer to 2.0 not 1.0.
15:44:19 [DKA]
Jo: Valid Markup - last one of the document.
15:44:39 [francois]
Regrets+ hgerlach
15:44:56 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:44:56 [Zakim]
Yeliz should now be muted
15:44:56 [DKA]
Alan: This one corresponds to a 1.0 checkpoint but at 2.0 they removed requirement for valid code at one stage and then changed it to "Well formed" markup.
15:45:21 [DKA]
Alan: The arguments in the wcag working group is that it doesn't give accessibilty benefit. Does it bring a benefit or not?
15:45:33 [DKA]
Jo: I don't think it's for us to judge.
15:45:43 [DKA]
Jo: It does give you WCAG (1.0) compliance.
15:45:57 [DKA]
Alan: Yes but it's hard to justify whether it brings benefits to users with disabilities.
15:46:11 [DKA]
15:46:27 [DKA]
Jo: We're done with that document for now.
15:47:01 [DKA]
Jo: You're able to make changes now you've been waiting to make. Yeliz made some contributions and those can be folded in as well. OK?
15:47:09 [DKA]
Jo: Thanks again, Alan.
15:47:31 [DKA]
Jo: BP 2.0 - discussion of recent inputs on the mailing list.
15:47:52 [jo]
Topic: BP 2.0
15:48:59 [DKA]
DKA: Have RIT done anything on scripting that we could bring into next week's f2f?
15:49:46 [aconnors]
15:50:11 [DKA]
Jeff: I don't know that I have anything concrete to contribute until what scripting.
15:50:45 [DKA]
Jeff: Seperate javascript into seperate files for PC sites and for mobile it makes more sense to put it inline.
15:51:10 [DKA]
Jeff: I'll try to get some some written materials to the list by the weekend.
15:51:22 [jo]
ack ac
15:51:52 [dom]
[Adam's mail on AJAX being an opportunity to reduce network access problems took me aback, but sounds very interesting to me]
15:51:59 [dom]
[dom's random thought of the day]
15:52:15 [DKA]
Adam: one suggestion was not to build the DOM on device but to send the whole html vs building the DOM on the device - trade offs there where it might make sens to do some experimentation.
15:52:19 [jeffs]
will go for obvious general-level javascript BP, like inline vs separate files etc...
15:52:27 [DKA]
DKA: that sounds relevant.
15:54:17 [jo]
[in response to Dom's, Jo's random thought is that the best place to that into account "dynamic" properties of the device is in the client and not to use OMA DPE]
15:54:17 [DKA]
Adam: I could do a simple test case for this.
15:54:39 [jo]
s/to that into/to take into/
15:55:02 [DKA]
DKA: Could Francois set up a space for the bp 2.0 doc test cases?
15:56:16 [DKA]
ACTION: Dan to create an issue to start bringing together potential test cases.
15:56:16 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-677 - Create an issue to start bringing together potential test cases. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-03-06].
15:56:23 [DKA]
Jo: I'm going to end the meeting there.
15:56:28 [Kai]
Enjoy Seoul!! I would like to be there.
15:56:37 [DKA]
Jo: That's it. Bye!
15:56:37 [abel]
15:56:39 [yeliz]
15:56:39 [DKA]
15:56:40 [Zakim]
15:56:41 [Magnus]
15:56:41 [Zakim]
15:56:41 [Zakim]
15:56:42 [miguel]
15:56:43 [Zakim]
15:56:43 [Zakim]
15:56:44 [Zakim]
15:56:45 [Zakim]
15:56:46 [Zakim]
15:56:47 [Zakim]
15:56:48 [abel]
abel has left #bpwg
15:56:49 [Zakim]
15:56:51 [Zakim]
15:56:53 [Zakim]
15:57:00 [nacho]
nacho has left #bpwg
15:57:01 [Zakim]
15:57:05 [yeliz]
yeliz has left #bpwg
15:57:06 [francois]
zakim, adam.a is really Magnus
15:57:06 [Zakim]
sorry, francois, I do not recognize a party named 'adam.a'
15:57:14 [francois]
zakmi, list attendees
15:57:18 [Magnus]
oops i left
15:57:18 [francois]
zakim, list attendees
15:57:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, +1.781.267.aaaa, miguel, MartinJ, +0207881aabb, abel, nacho, +0207881aacc, adam, Kai, achuter, Yeliz,
15:57:21 [Zakim]
... +1.703.265.aadd, AlanT, Magnus
15:58:11 [Zakim]
15:58:13 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:58:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeff, Shah, francois, DKA, jo, +1.781.267.aaaa, miguel, MartinJ, +0207881aabb, abel, nacho, +0207881aacc, adam, Kai, achuter, Yeliz, +1.703.265.aadd, AlanT, Magnus
15:58:25 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate francois
15:58:40 [MartinJ]
MartinJ has left #bpwg
16:21:15 [skarim]
skarim has left #bpwg
16:26:40 [jo]
jo has left #bpwg
16:46:22 [francois]
RRSAgent, bye
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: daoust to make sure next calls will stick to european time [1]
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: achuter Discuss on the list THEMATIC_CONSISTENCY [2]
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dan to create an issue to start bringing together potential test cases. [3]
16:46:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:46:25 [francois]
Zakim, bye
16:46:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #bpwg