17:54:05 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:54:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/27-owl-irc 17:54:39 zakim, this is owlwg 17:54:39 pfps_, I see SW_OWL()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be owlwg". 17:54:48 zakim, this will be owlwg 17:54:48 ok, pfps_; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago 17:55:06 ewallace has joined #owl 17:55:21 bmotik has joined #owl 17:55:41 SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started 17:55:48 +pfps_ 17:55:55 zakim, who is on the phone? 17:55:55 On the phone I see pfps_ 17:55:57 +??P3 17:55:58 Elisa has joined #owl 17:56:02 Zakim, ??p3 is me 17:56:02 +bmotik; got it 17:56:20 Zakim, mute me 17:56:20 bmotik should now be muted 17:56:27 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:56:34 Zakim, unmute me 17:56:34 bmotik should no longer be muted 17:56:45 +??P4 17:56:51 +Elisa_Kendall 17:56:55 zakim, ??P4 is me 17:56:55 +m_schnei; got it 17:57:01 zakim, unmute me 17:57:01 m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei 17:57:03 +Evan_Wallace 17:57:09 zakim, mute me 17:57:09 m_schnei should now be muted 17:57:23 Zakim, mute me 17:57:23 bmotik should now be muted 17:57:32 zakim, mute me 17:57:32 pfps_ should now be muted 17:58:03 +??P7 17:58:30 +??P8 17:58:54 Zakim, ??P8 is me 17:58:54 +bcuencagrau; got it 17:59:02 Zakim, mute me 17:59:02 bcuencagrau should now be muted 17:59:21 ScribeNick: Elisa 18:00:03 MarkusK has joined #owl 18:00:14 jeremy has joined #owl 18:00:33 +[IPcaller] 18:00:49 uli has joined #owl 18:01:04 peter, how do we make Elisa be the scribe? 18:01:07 + +7.955.aaaa 18:01:23 Zakim, aaaa is me 18:01:23 +jeremy; got it 18:01:34 +m_schnei.a 18:01:36 zakim, mute me 18:01:36 jeremy should now be muted 18:01:40 ivan has joined #owl 18:01:49 Zhe has joined #owl 18:01:52 +??P0 18:01:55 MartinD has joined #OWL 18:01:58 Ivan, we need help with zakim scribing etc 18:02:01 zakim, ??P0 is me 18:02:01 +uli; got it 18:02:05 zakim, dial ivan-voip 18:02:05 ok, ivan; the call is being made 18:02:06 +Ivan 18:02:10 + +0190827aabb 18:02:17 zakim, aabb is me 18:02:17 +MartinD; got it 18:02:20 zakim, mute me 18:02:20 uli should now be muted 18:02:29 rrsagent, set log public 18:02:31 zakim, mute me 18:02:31 sorry, Zhe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 18:02:32 zakim, mute me 18:02:32 MartinD should now be muted 18:02:37 -m_schnei.a 18:02:52 +Vipul_Kashyap 18:02:54 Can anyone hear me? 18:03:02 No 18:03:02 DougL has joined #owl 18:03:07 +m_schnei.a 18:03:09 why does zakim say things like "+m_schnei.a"? 18:03:13 -1 18:03:21 vipul has joined #owl 18:03:23 I'll try dialing in again 18:03:23 zakim, mute me 18:03:23 sorry, Zhe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 18:03:31 -bcuencagrau 18:03:47 zakim believes that the line associated with some call is your line 18:03:48 JeffP has joined #owl 18:03:50 + +1.512.342.aacc 18:04:00 -m_schnei.a 18:04:01 +Carsten 18:04:02 hendler has joined #owl 18:04:03 zakim, aacc is me 18:04:03 +DougL; got it 18:04:10 zakim, mute me 18:04:10 Carsten should now be muted 18:04:11 +Sandro 18:04:21 no, it said this looong after! 18:04:22 zakim, who is on the call? 18:04:22 On the phone I see pfps_ (muted), bmotik (muted), m_schnei (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace, ??P7, MarkusK (muted), jeremy (muted), uli (muted), Ivan, MartinD (muted), 18:04:25 ... Vipul_Kashyap, DougL, Carsten (muted), Sandro 18:04:27 +??P2 18:04:31 +m_schnei.a 18:04:33 + +1.518.276.aadd 18:04:38 +Jeff_Pan 18:04:40 zakim, ??P2 is IanH 18:04:40 +IanH; got it 18:04:41 zakim, aadd is me 18:04:42 +hendler; got it 18:04:51 maybe I have stolen someone else's phone line? 18:05:00 zakim, mute me 18:05:00 sorry, Zhe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 18:05:06 zakim, who is here 18:05:06 IanH, you need to end that query with '?' 18:05:15 zakim, who is here? 18:05:15 On the phone I see pfps_ (muted), bmotik (muted), m_schnei (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace, ??P7, MarkusK (muted), jeremy (muted), uli (muted), Ivan, MartinD (muted), 18:05:18 ... Vipul_Kashyap, DougL, Carsten (muted), Sandro, IanH, m_schnei.a, hendler, Jeff_Pan 18:05:19 On IRC I see hendler, JeffP, vipul, DougL, MartinD, Zhe, ivan, uli, jeremy, MarkusK, bcuencagrau, Elisa, bmotik, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Carsten, m_schnei, sandro, pfps_, 18:05:21 ... pfps, trackbot-ng 18:05:31 zakim, unmute me 18:05:31 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:05:32 Zakim, ??P& is me 18:05:32 sorry, Zhe, I do not recognize a party named '??P&' 18:05:54 zakim, unmute me 18:05:54 m_schnei should no longer be muted 18:05:58 Zakim, ??P7 is Zhe 18:05:58 +Zhe; got it 18:05:58 Zakim, ??P7 is me 18:05:59 I already had ??P7 as Zhe, Zhe 18:06:12 ok, I go out 18:06:21 -m_schnei 18:06:30 zakim, who is on the call? 18:06:30 On the phone I see pfps_ (muted), bmotik (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace, Zhe, MarkusK (muted), jeremy, uli (muted), Ivan, MartinD (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, DougL, Carsten 18:06:33 ... (muted), Sandro, IanH, m_schnei.a, hendler, Jeff_Pan 18:06:51 Achille has joined #owl 18:06:55 zakim, drop m_schnei.a 18:06:55 m_schnei.a is being disconnected 18:06:57 -m_schnei.a 18:06:58 +??P4 18:07:04 I was dropped 18:07:06 im in again 18:07:14 zakim, ??P4 is me 18:07:14 +m_schnei; got it 18:07:14 zakim, drop Zhe 18:07:15 Zhe is being disconnected 18:07:16 -Zhe 18:07:26 zakim, who is on the cs 18:07:26 I don't understand 'who is on the cs', IanH 18:07:26 zakim, mute me 18:07:27 jeremy should now be muted 18:07:28 zakim, mute me 18:07:28 m_schnei should now be muted 18:07:29 +[IBM] 18:07:30 hey you guys cut me! 18:07:32 zakim, who is on the call? 18:07:32 On the phone I see pfps_ (muted), bmotik (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK (muted), jeremy (muted), uli (muted), Ivan, MartinD (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, DougL, Carsten 18:07:36 ... (muted), Sandro, IanH, hendler, Jeff_Pan, m_schnei (muted), [IBM] 18:07:42 Zakim, IBM is Achille 18:07:42 +Achille; got it 18:07:58 Topic: Admin 18:08:07 Agenda amendments - none 18:08:26 +m_schnei.a 18:08:32 +1 18:08:35 +??P18 18:08:50 zakim, mute me 18:08:50 pfps_ was already muted, pfps_ 18:08:52 Zakim, ??P18 is me 18:08:52 +bcuencagrau; got it 18:09:07 Zakim, mute me 18:09:07 bcuencagrau should now be muted 18:09:09 Zakim, m_schnei.a is Zhe 18:09:09 +Zhe; got it 18:09:13 thanks 18:09:23 PROPOSAL: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.13/Minutes 18:09:36 +1 for the minutes 18:09:38 +1 18:09:43 +1 18:10:05 2008-02-13 18:10:36 i think the linked minutes *are* 20th 18:10:50 PROPOSAL: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.20/Minutes 18:11:03 +1 18:11:05 +1 18:11:14 RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.20/Minutes 18:11:32 note the 20th minutes indicate that we did approve the 13th minutes 18:11:36 Upcoming incubator group discussion 18:11:48 What is the incubator group? 18:12:11 Ivan: the incubator group is finally looking at ways of mapping data to RDF 18:12:27 this is relevant to this group is that they are interested in mapping relational 18:12:39 RRSAgent, pointer? 18:12:39 See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/27-owl-irc#T18-12-39 18:12:43 data to owl structures; if all goes as planned, it will be announced tomorrow 18:13:03 it will be announced on the home page as well; charter URL is not available yet 18:13:16 q+ to say not obliquely 18:13:26 Ian: this is something we would just want to keep an eye on, but not much to do now 18:13:37 Q? 18:13:47 no 18:13:48 Pending actions discussion 18:13:54 it is *not* me 18:13:55 ack m_schnei.a 18:14:02 ack hendler 18:14:02 hendler, you wanted to say not obliquely 18:14:20 q+ 18:14:23 +1 18:14:25 Jim: just wanted to say that the incubator group is directly related to the discussion on fragments 18:14:26 zakim, unmute me 18:14:26 pfps_ should no longer be muted 18:14:38 related to SQL queries, so we need to pay close attention to this 18:14:40 q- 18:14:56 we should make sure that the coordination group makes sure that we don't work at cross purposes 18:15:06 q? 18:15:49 Ian: so should we consider nominating someone to coordinate with this group? 18:16:01 Ivan: I propose we should wait a week and look at the charter first 18:16:04 q? 18:16:12 Note that the chair is from oracle 18:16:19 Pending review actions 18:16:26 q+ 18:16:43 Ian: there was agreement that Boris would update the spec to address issue-95 18:16:45 q? 18:16:49 any objection? 18:17:04 Evan: I brought up in email that figure 5 does not completely reflect the change 18:17:16 Zakim, unmute me 18:17:16 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:17:18 Ian: is that the only problem, that figure 5 needs fixing? 18:17:21 q? 18:17:28 ack ewallace 18:17:36 Evan: I didn't particularly like the resolution either, but given the resolution, yes 18:17:45 Boris: what's wrong with the figure? 18:18:04 figure 5 is also wrong for me 18:18:05 Evan: it should point to a datatype rather than DataRange 18:18:11 q? 18:18:12 URL? 18:18:24 Boris: it's been corrected - you might need to refresh your cache 18:18:24 q+ 18:18:29 but refreshing fixes it 18:18:29 fig 5 on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Syntax 18:18:31 zakim, unmute me 18:18:31 m_schnei should no longer be muted 18:18:36 Ian: Peter also says this is aproblem for him 18:18:38 q? 18:19:01 Michael: what about the other document, the semantics and RDF mapping ... which is a little bit confusing 18:19:16 Ian: are you asking about interactions with other documents? 18:19:32 zakim, mute me 18:19:32 m_schnei should now be muted 18:19:33 Michael: yes, interactions between the syntax document and other documents on this issue 18:19:37 uli, thanks! 18:19:46 Boris: I need to check the documents 18:20:21 Ian: we may not be able to resolve these issues with issue 95, thus it may need revisiting next week 18:20:21 q? 18:20:42 Boris: I don't think the other documents need to change, but perhaps other people have other opinions 18:20:57 Ian: perhaps we should come back to this next week for a definitive answer 18:20:57 semantics has to change, but only very little 18:21:28 Ian: Let's leave this as pending and revisit it next week 18:21:32 Boris: ok 18:21:48 After refreshing I do see the change in Figure 5! 18:21:49 q? 18:22:03 no 18:22:03 Ian: Action 87, which alan has completed ... are we happy with what alan has written there? 18:22:05 q- 18:22:27 Ian: Action 87: Complete 18:22:31 zakim, unmute me 18:22:31 pfps_ was not muted, pfps_ 18:22:35 q? 18:22:45 +1 to peter's mail 18:22:50 zakim, mute me 18:22:50 pfps_ should now be muted 18:22:54 +1 18:23:01 Ian: Action 92: Peter to write up his understanding of ISSUE-68 18:23:11 ACTION 92: complete 18:23:29 Action 72, Action 79 postponed 18:23:37 q? 18:24:11 Action 90 - Jeremy, pending, will try to get it done for next week 18:24:31 Action 42, Bijan - postponed 18:24:38 ditto 18:24:44 Bijan said he was working on it 18:24:47 Action 86, Jeremy - pending for next week 18:25:22 q? 18:25:25 jeremy; a lot of HP work on at the moment, should ease off at easter 18:25:26 Ian: Publication schedule, issue from Boris regarding updating public working drafts, which docs we might want to publish 18:25:47 would we want to update the current working drafts or potentially publish other documents 18:25:57 +1 to boris's proposal :-) 18:26:03 q+ 18:26:05 q+ 18:26:06 +1 18:26:12 Boris proposes that at least the current 3 docs that are working drafts should be updated 18:26:39 Sandro: the motivation doesn't make sense to me; we can make snapshots for the working group, but the reason to publish 18:26:52 q+ 18:26:54 new working drafts is to get feedback from outside the working group 18:27:06 q? 18:27:09 q+ 18:27:10 q- 18:27:12 zakim, unmute me 18:27:12 pfps_ should no longer be muted 18:27:14 Ian: this is a good point, have the docs changed sufficiently that we would want outside feedback 18:27:21 ack jeremy 18:27:57 q? 18:27:58 heatbeat deadline is April 8th 18:28:10 Jeremy: I think that it is good to show that we're aligned, if we are 18:28:41 Sandro: the work in making another working draft is to publish a note to the public that there is another working draft, and then to publish it 18:28:54 If there are changes worth sharing, then sure, let's republish 18:28:59 q- 18:29:03 q? 18:29:27 q? 18:29:29 Ian: several people mentioned publishing the XML syntax, two things to discuss - A, are the changes sufficient to publish new versions 18:29:42 q? 18:29:43 and B should we consider publishing additional documents 18:29:49 q+ tp bring up grddl 18:30:00 Boris: I think it would be good to show that we are aligned and something has changed 18:30:01 q+ tp mention grddl 18:30:12 q+ to bring up grddl 18:30:20 q? 18:30:30 I also think we have fixed quite a few bugs, and coming up with a list of the issues we've fixed might also be good 18:30:31 ack bmotik 18:30:35 q? 18:30:49 We should consider the XML syntax and also the RDF mapping 18:31:01 q? 18:31:14 Boris: the other document we should publish is the XML syntax, if we can achieve resolution on the fragments then 18:31:19 we should consider that as well 18:31:22 Zakim, you never fail to remind us to be humble in our claims and expectations about how close we are to semantic understanding in our software. 18:31:22 I don't understand you, DougL 18:31:31 Ian: I don't think that the fragments are ready yet 18:31:53 Exactly. 18:32:20 Jeremy: I'm in principle in favor of publishing the XML syntax, we should add having a GRIDDL profile to the issue list 18:32:29 Ian: yes I think that's appropriate 18:32:34 q? 18:32:36 Jeremy: ok, I'll do that 18:32:44 ack jeremy 18:32:44 jeremy, you wanted to bring up grddl 18:32:54 zakim, mute me 18:32:54 jeremy should now be muted 18:33:22 Ian: nobody else expressed anything about the other working drafts ... don't know whether that speaks for or against republishing 18:33:27 q? 18:33:44 Perhaps if we publish both the documents and a list of the issues that have been addressed / changed / fixed would be useful 18:33:46 -0 18:33:56 STRAWPOLL: Should we re-publish new version of three already-published documents 18:34:01 Straw pole on whether we should publish new ones, perhaps we should do this doc by doc 18:34:08 STRAWPOLL: Syntax? 18:34:09 +1 18:34:10 +0 18:34:10 +1 18:34:10 +1 18:34:10 +1 to re-publish 18:34:11 0 18:34:12 -0 18:34:13 +0 18:34:14 who thinks the structural syntax has changed enough 18:34:14 +1 18:34:15 -0 18:34:15 0 18:34:16 0 18:34:16 0 18:34:18 +1 18:34:20 +1 18:34:22 +1 18:34:34 ok so generally positive on structural syntad 18:34:37 STRAWPOLL: Semantics? 18:34:41 same question on semantics document 18:35:09 -0 18:35:12 -0 18:35:21 -0 18:35:25 +1 18:35:30 +1 18:35:31 +1 18:35:32 -0 18:35:34 0 18:35:37 0 18:35:40 0 18:35:40 0 18:35:50 Ian: do we need a formal resolution to publish? 18:35:59 zakim, unmute me 18:35:59 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:36:05 q? 18:36:05 Sandro: yes, with regard to publishing, we should 18:36:06 zakim, mute me 18:36:06 pfps_ should now be muted 18:36:08 Zakim, mute me 18:36:08 bmotik should now be muted 18:36:30 Jeremy: I feel that we should have addressed 1 or 2 of the harder issues before republishing 18:36:31 q? 18:36:35 q+ 18:36:52 q? 18:36:55 Jeremy: I'd like us to have done one or two of the harder issues before republishing -- especially given Jim's point about lack of interest in the previous draft. I wouldn't oppose publishing, but I'm not convinced it's worth the effort. 18:36:56 We've done quite a bit of cleaning up, but something new would be more interesting -- I'm not convinced that it's work the effort 18:36:58 ack hendler 18:37:02 q? 18:37:06 Jim: My real fear is exausting people. 18:37:24 Jim: ... ie crying wolf. 18:37:26 jeremy: i would concur 18:37:34 Jim: my real fear is of exhausting people - if we republish for minor issues, people won't really look when we rerelease for major issues 18:37:36 q? 18:37:51 q+ 18:37:55 q? 18:38:06 we run the risk of getting to CR and having people raise more difficult issues 18:38:26 Sandro: if we publish with a list of the things we've addressed, and then ask for feedback does that make sense 18:38:35 q? 18:39:04 Jim: my sense is that people don't read the status section, and I would prefer we fix some more substantive issues before publication 18:39:18 Jeremy: we can meet the heartbeat status by publishing other documents 18:39:20 -pfps_ 18:39:24 q? 18:39:28 q+ to ask if we should republish all when we republish any? 18:39:32 ack jeremy 18:39:45 q- 18:40:03