17:36:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:36:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc
17:36:19 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
17:36:30 <AllanJ> zakim, this will be wai_u
17:36:30 <Zakim> ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
17:36:49 <AllanJ> Title: UAWG telecon
17:36:54 <AllanJ> Chair: Jim Allan
17:39:02 <AllanJ> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0042.html
17:39:04 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0043.html
17:39:05 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0045.html
17:49:12 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:55:26 <judy> judy has joined #ua
17:57:51 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:57:58 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:58:32 <Zakim> + +1.512.206.aaaa
17:58:50 <Zakim> +??P2
17:58:57 <AllanJ> zakim, [Microsoft] is Kelly Ford
17:58:58 <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Kelly Ford', AllanJ
17:59:05 <Jan> zakim, ??P2 is really Jan
17:59:05 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:59:29 <AllanJ> zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly Ford
17:59:29 <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] is really Kelly Ford', AllanJ
17:59:57 <AllanJ> zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord
17:59:57 <Zakim> +KFord; got it
18:00:03 <Zakim> +Judy
18:00:49 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
18:01:04 <Jan> Scribe: Jan
18:01:21 <Jan> KF: Prefers 2pm ET
18:01:28 <Jan> JA, JR: Agree
18:01:39 <plh> plh has joined #ua
18:01:43 <Zakim> +Plh
18:01:54 <Jan> Action JA: Move start time to 2pm ET
18:02:54 <Jan> Action JR: Make sure call goes to 3:30pm
18:04:10 <Jan> zakim, 1.512.206.aaaa is really JimAllan
18:04:10 <Zakim> sorry, Jan, I do not recognize a party named '1.512.206.aaaa'
18:04:18 <Jan> zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really JimAllan
18:04:18 <Zakim> +JimAllan; got it
18:04:45 <Jan> Topic: UAAG2, Video on the Web discussion with Invited Guest: Philippe Le Hegaret
18:04:56 <Jan> PH: Architecture domain leader
18:05:12 <Jan> PH: Several formats, internationalization...
18:05:24 <Jan> PH: There was a video conference I chaired...
18:05:32 <Jan> PH: Published report 2 days ago
18:05:35 <AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/report.html
18:06:14 <Jan> JA: I know accessibility came up a bit...do you have any issues to bring up?
18:06:23 <Jan> PH: Discussed variety of subjects...
18:06:39 <Jan> PH: We had a presentation on Sign language and video
18:06:58 <AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/papers
18:07:02 <Jan> PH: Other accessibility position papers pointed back to WAI guidelines
18:07:18 <Jan> PH: When look at video on Web not much has accessible content
18:07:32 <Jan> PH: Improving - Flash getting supports for captionning
18:07:44 <Jan> JA: WGBH has buiolt an accessible Flash player
18:08:05 <Jan> JA: Many flash players can't be used from keyboardf
18:08:40 <plh> sorry, my phone decided to reboot :(
18:08:43 <Jan> JA: So as User Agent WG we have some guidelines related to video,...
18:08:49 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
18:08:59 <Zakim> +Plh.a
18:09:06 <Jan> JA: Change speed, synchonization, show captions
18:09:18 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
18:09:53 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
18:10:37 <Jan> JA: WGBH created player...now would be nice if Adobe picked it up
18:11:06 <Jan> PH: Yes...should say there are 3 WG working on video...
18:11:18 <Jan> PH: SMIL WG, video WG, HTML WG
18:11:30 <Jan> PH: Right now waving their hands and leaving it to UA to support
18:11:46 <Jan> PH: ex. here is video if there is captions, UA must deal with that
18:11:57 <Jan> JA: Right in HTML plugins
18:12:11 <Jan> PH: Direct support in HTML - Audio and Video tag
18:12:19 <Jan> JA: Opera has a Beta
18:12:27 <Jan> PH: Also Firefox has beta
18:12:56 <Jan> PH: Suggest pay attention to what those tools are doing
18:13:15 <Jan> PH: UAAG should tell the developers what to do when they find captions...
18:13:46 <Jan> JA: We have existing guidelkines around stop, start pause, navigate incrmentally, captionning on/off
18:14:00 <Jan> JA: Need fairly robust API from HTML
18:14:17 <Jan> PH: It is fairly robust...but what else do we need to do
18:14:23 <Jan> PH: eg colors
18:14:27 <Jan> JB: Contrast?
18:14:32 <Jan> PH: Yes
18:14:53 <Jan> JB: Don't we need go user control of this...eg for display of captions
18:15:29 <Jan> JA: Would be a native support issue...embedded players in past have been a problem...in esternal player there is more control
18:16:02 <Jan> JA: Backing up...currently in SMIL, SAMI the captions are in a seprate window
18:16:13 <Jan> JA: So no contrast issue?
18:16:23 <Jan> PH: SMIL is just one big window
18:16:49 <Jan> JA: In some other players Real etc. I've seen them in a different window
18:17:05 <Jan> JB: KF how some SAMI work on this?
18:17:12 <Jan> KF: Not sure of the top of my head
18:17:23 <Jan> JA: SAMI ones have been the way I describe it
18:18:37 <Jan> PH: SMIL doesn't have concept of caption
18:18:44 <Jan> PH: Has concept of text
18:19:03 <Jan> PH: SMIL3 is introducing a text format
18:19:46 <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-SMIL3-20080115/
18:19:55 <Jan> JR: We assume that captions are identified
18:20:16 <Jan> Action JA: look into whether SMIL identifies captions explicitly
18:20:37 <Jan> JA: Didn't mean Windows, meant different area
18:21:02 <Jan> PH: Should Caption handling appear at API level
18:21:10 <Jan> PH: Or at the User Agent level
18:21:15 <Jan> JA: Clarify?
18:21:26 <Jan> PH: 2 levels
18:21:40 <Jan> PH: What can script conteol and what can user agent
18:22:04 <Jan> PH: eg. So script can't change prefs at the moment
18:22:21 <Jan> JA: Prefer UA do it, since script leaves to many ways to do things
18:22:48 <Jan> PH: So which way?
18:22:53 <Jan> JB: Both
18:23:27 <Jan> PH: Do we want author to say must show French captions
18:23:41 <Jan> JB: But doesn't author set preferences
18:24:15 <Jan> PH: Author has to provide the various tracks
18:24:35 <Jan> KF: Author should be able to set deafult, but user can overridie
18:24:58 <Jan> PH: So in caption tech they have language *en, fr, sp etc.)...
18:25:17 <Jan> PH: Not enough..what about video description...
18:25:49 <Jan> PH: And use cases eg eng captions, fr video descripotions
18:26:07 <Jan> JA: Reading about audio description tracks
18:26:24 <Jan> JA: Sometimes people put text version of audio descriptions
18:26:59 <Jan> JR: Seems like we need ARIA roles etc
18:27:04 <Jan> JA: Meta info?
18:27:37 <Jan> PH: Also SMIL could set out these roles
18:28:09 <Jan> JA: OK let's see if we can pull this together
18:28:37 <Jan> JA: So in user agent, we want to control features and functionalities of video, play stop start
18:29:22 <Jan> JA: Also incremental nav
18:29:42 <Jan> JR: Also structured navigation
18:30:26 <Jan> PH: Do you want authors to have control
18:31:13 <AllanJ> API=author provides options
18:31:27 <AllanJ> UA=user chooses from available options
18:31:33 <Jan> JR: Example of mode in which user can pause video until they dismiss each caption
18:32:33 <Jan> PH: Full screen is example
18:32:59 <Jan> PH: Don't want author to set full screen option
18:33:36 <Jan> PH: French captions would be another example
18:33:54 <Jan> JA: It's an "author proposes, user disposes" example
18:34:40 <Jan> JA: Author could propose Full Screen, but UA could allow User to override that
18:35:09 <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#media
18:35:19 <plh> (that's the current API for video and audio elements)
18:35:31 <Jan> JA: So now we have to come up wih list of additional UA controls needed
18:36:03 <Jan> JA: So API built into user agent?
18:36:05 <Jan> PH: Yes
18:36:44 <Jan> JA: Other things...captions on/off...caption formatting
18:37:06 <Jan> JA: Selection of available text tracks, video tracks
18:37:42 <Jan> JA: Then re: video description 1. embedded in audio track or 2. in own audio track
18:38:37 <plh> [audio track with director's commentary is an other use case for this btw]
18:38:59 <Jan> Action JR: When review audio/video guidelines we need to put in track selection, text configuration of captions
18:39:32 <Jan> JA: SO how does author communicate avialability
18:39:47 <Jan> PH: So now these are delivered together
18:39:57 <Jan> PH: Up to UA decide which to display
18:40:10 <Jan> PH: Can improve state of metadata with each
18:40:33 <Jan> JA: Searchable?
18:40:36 <Jan> PH: Yes
18:41:11 <Jan> JA: Also issue of sizing...
18:41:26 <Jan> JA: ex. looking at streaming...
18:41:55 <Jan> JA: If we allow captions to be larger...will that expand viewer?
18:42:06 <Jan> JA: Causing reflow?
18:42:49 <Jan> JA: ANd embedded things hard to resiza
18:43:03 <Jan> PH: No technical problem with reflowing like that
18:43:13 <Jan> PH: Could also magnify page
18:43:41 <Jan> PH: If I don't want caption on page but want beside it becomes a bigger issue
18:44:22 <Jan> JA: Haven't seen a 2 box example
18:44:56 <Jan> JA: Current UA's don't resize viewers
18:45:07 <Jan> PH: This will now be allowed
18:45:25 <Jan> Action JR: Add something on resizing embedded viewers
18:46:04 <Jan> JA: Codec issues seem outside user agent?
18:46:16 <Jan> PH: Prob for ua but not in accessibility
18:47:16 <Jan> JR: Blue sky...what about changing contrast of playing video etc
18:47:20 <Jan> PH: Can see use case
18:47:47 <Jan> JA: Also interactive video - changable, clickable video
18:48:12 <Jan> JA: Video like image map?
18:48:32 <Jan> PH: Spatial Addressing, temporal addressing
18:48:56 <Jan> PH: Some existing solutions for this
18:49:09 <Jan> PH: We are trying to develop a common solution
18:49:39 <Jan> PH: Spatial addressing...like an image map...we haven't thought much about UI
18:51:00 <Jan> JR: It's coming
18:51:13 <Judy2> Judy2 has joined #ua
18:51:16 <Jan> JR: Mentionned sign language for Web...
18:51:25 <Jan> www.aslpah.ca
18:51:49 <Jan> JA: We need to alert user to it being there and allow user to activate
18:52:33 <Jan> KF: User agent could keep track of things
18:52:51 <Jan> JA: Also need searching
18:53:34 <Jan> JA: Gallaudet...Hamlet had scene descs etc on basis of captionning
18:53:45 <Jan> JA: Searching of text tracks
18:54:05 <Jan> PH: Video object recognition is coming up
18:54:26 <Jan> PH: Technology is improving
18:55:04 <Jan> PH: Reuter's has a tool that let's you search for a person's name and then it finds it in videos
18:55:20 <Jan> PH: See this as auto-generation of metadata
18:55:30 <Jan> PH: Metadata by hand is hard
18:55:52 <Jan> JA: Added benfit if video is native
18:56:10 <Jan> PH: Don't expect face recog just yet in UA's
18:56:39 <Jan> PH: Metadata issue is still a problem
18:57:05 <Jan> PH: WGBH generates metadata but it is removed along the stream
18:57:22 <Jan> PH: Even across codec changes
18:58:19 <Jan> JB: May make sense to use this as first discussion and work though it with current draft then have Phillipe back
18:58:28 <Jan> KF: We need to get a foundation going
18:58:55 <Jan> JB: Maybe we should invite others - Geoff Freed
18:59:20 <Jan> JB: Maybe a few others
18:59:48 <Jan> KF: Would like to talk to some internal microsfoft people
19:00:20 <Jan> Action KF: Gather some more Microsoft insight on video issue
19:00:38 <Jan> PH: can also apply to images
19:01:56 <Jan> JA: Video codec problem is immense
19:02:27 <Jan> PH: Video adoption will be slow until codec issue is sorted
19:02:35 <Jan> JA: Thanks Phillipe
19:03:54 <Zakim> -KFord
19:03:59 <Zakim> -Plh.a
19:04:02 <Zakim> -Jan
19:04:11 <plh> s/PH:/PLH:/g
19:10:59 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
19:10:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:28:46 <Zakim> -Judy
19:28:48 <Zakim> -JimAllan
19:32:43 <plh> zaki, drop plh
19:32:46 <plh> zakim, drop plh
19:32:46 <Zakim> Plh is being disconnected
19:32:48 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:32:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Jan, KFord, Judy, Plh, JimAllan, Plh.a
19:32:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-minutes.html plh
19:36:44 <AllanJ> zakim, bye
19:36:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:36:55 <AllanJ> rrsagent, bye
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-actions.rdf :
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to Move start time to 2pm ET [1]
19:36:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc#T18-01-54
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR to Make sure call goes to 3:30pm [2]
19:36:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc#T18-02-54
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to look into whether SMIL identifies captions explicitly [3]
19:36:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc#T18-20-16
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR to When review audio/video guidelines we need to put in track selection, text configuration of captions [4]
19:36:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc#T18-38-59
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR to Add something on resizing embedded viewers [5]
19:36:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc#T18-45-25
19:36:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: KF to Gather some more Microsoft insight on video issue [6]
19:36:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-ua-irc#T19-00-20