14:59:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:59:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc
14:59:56 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:59:58 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:59:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM already started
14:59:59 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:59:59 <trackbot-ng> Date: 21 February 2008
15:00:01 <Magnus> zakim, code?
15:00:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:00:22 <Zakim> + +1.585.278.aabb
15:00:27 <Zakim> +DKA
15:00:45 <Zakim> +jo
15:00:50 <drooks> drooks has joined #bpwg
15:00:55 <Zakim> + +46.3.17.47.aacc
15:01:01 <Zakim> +francois
15:01:01 <francois> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:03 <Zakim> +francois; got it
15:01:17 <edm> edm has joined #bpwg
15:01:30 <jo> zakim, who is here?
15:01:30 <francois> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.503.539.aaaa, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, francois.a, francois
15:01:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:01:36 <miguel> miguel has joined #bpwg
15:01:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.503.539.aaaa, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, francois.a, francois
15:01:41 <Zakim> + +0776677aadd
15:01:46 <DKA> zakim, aaaa is Jeff
15:01:46 <Zakim> +Jeff; got it
15:02:03 <DKA> zakim, who's here?
15:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, francois.a, francois, +0776677aadd
15:02:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:02:05 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:02:07 <Zakim> +Ed_Mitukiewicz
15:02:09 <Zakim> +??P17
15:02:12 <jo> zakim, aacc is probably magnus
15:02:12 <Zakim> sorry, jo, I do not understand your question
15:02:17 <Magnus> yepp, you hijacked me
15:02:21 <drooks> zakim, ??P17 is drooks
15:02:21 <Zakim> +drooks; got it
15:02:24 <francois> zakim, francois.a is really Magnus
15:02:24 <Zakim> +Magnus; got it
15:02:27 <Zakim> +[W3C-Spain]
15:02:31 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, +0776677aadd, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain]
15:02:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:02:42 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
15:02:45 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:02:46 <francois> Chair: DKA
15:02:50 <miguel> Zakim, [W3C-Spain] is me
15:02:50 <Zakim> +miguel; got it
15:02:51 <Zakim> +??P20
15:03:04 <Zakim> + +1.408.227.aaee
15:03:10 <DKA> zakim, who is talking?
15:03:16 <jo> zakim, miguel is [W3C-Spain]
15:03:16 <Zakim> +[W3C-Spain]; got it
15:03:21 <Zakim> DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.585.278.aabb (15%), DKA (69%), ??P20 (16%)
15:03:29 <francois> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0099.html
15:03:31 <jo> zakim,[W3C-Spain] holds miguel
15:03:31 <Zakim> +miguel; got it
15:03:45 <Zakim> - +0776677aadd
15:03:55 <francois> zakim, who's there?
15:03:55 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, francois.
15:03:56 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:03:57 <jo> zakim, who is here?
15:03:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, ??P20, +1.408.227.aaee
15:04:00 <chaals> chaals has joined #bpwg
15:04:03 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
15:04:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bryan, SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:04:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, ??P20, +1.408.227.aaee
15:04:15 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
15:04:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see chaals, Bryan, SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:04:56 <Zakim> +Sean_Owen
15:05:04 <Zakim> +SeanP
15:05:27 <srowen> 585 is New York but is not me
15:05:28 <Magnus> 585 = NY, 408 = San Jose
15:05:52 <Zakim> +??P28
15:06:12 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:06:12 <Zakim> sorry, yeliz, I do not know which phone connection belongs to yeliz
15:06:13 <chaals> zakim, ??p28 is me
15:06:13 <chaals> .me offers to scribe
15:06:14 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
15:06:37 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:06:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, ??P20, +1.408.227.aaee, Sean_Owen, SeanP, chaals
15:06:40 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
15:06:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see chaals, Bryan, SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:07:39 <DKA> zakim, aaee is Tony
15:07:39 <Zakim> +Tony; got it
15:07:57 <chaals> Present: Chaals, SeanP, Bryan, Miguel, DRooks, Jo, SeanO, Matt, Francois, DKA, EdM, Yeliz, Tony
15:08:07 <jo> zakim, ??P20 is probably yeliz
15:08:07 <Zakim> +yeliz?; got it
15:08:07 <chaals> Chair: DKA
15:08:43 <jo> zakim, jeff is Shah
15:08:43 <Zakim> +Shah; got it
15:08:48 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:08:48 <Zakim> yeliz? should now be muted
15:08:53 <jo> zakim, aaee is Jeff
15:08:55 <Zakim> sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
15:09:00 <chaals> Present+ Shah
15:09:03 <MartinJ> MartinJ has joined #bpwg
15:09:04 <Magnus> z/me is dizzy
15:09:10 <jo> zakim, aabb is Jeff
15:09:10 <Zakim> +Jeff; got it
15:09:18 <chaals> Present+ Magnus
15:09:19 <jo> zakim, who is on the phone
15:09:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', jo
15:09:20 <chaals> Topic: New members
15:09:30 <jo> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shah, Jeff, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, yeliz? (muted), Tony, Sean_Owen, SeanP, chaals
15:09:34 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
15:09:52 <chaals> DKA: Jeff Sorenstien from ...
15:10:23 <chaals> JS: I teach stuff. I talked about One Web and as penance I have to be here (or something like that)
15:10:33 <Zakim> + +0777613aaff
15:10:35 <francois> s/Sorenstien/Sonstein
15:10:49 <chaals> DKA: Tony, ByteMobile
15:10:50 <MartinJ> zakim, aaff is me
15:10:50 <Zakim> +MartinJ; got it
15:11:08 <chaals> Tony: work in engineering, putting internet on mobiles.
15:11:15 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:11:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shah, Jeff, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, yeliz? (muted), Tony, Sean_Owen, SeanP, chaals, MartinJ
15:11:16 <chaals> Present+ MartinJ
15:11:18 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
15:11:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see MartinJ, chaals, Bryan, SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:11:51 <chaals> DKA: Do you see ByteMobile using best practices to present content to devices?
15:11:56 <chaals> Tony: Yes.....
15:12:15 <chaals> s/Tony/TJ/
15:12:21 <chaals> s/Tony/TJ/
15:12:33 <jo> s/Sorenstien/Sonstein/
15:12:38 <chaals> s/Tony/Tony Johansson/
15:12:57 <chaals> Topic: TaskForce reports
15:13:07 <chaals> Topic: Content Transformation
15:13:16 <chaals> JR: blabla
15:13:23 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:13:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shah, Jeff, DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, yeliz? (muted), Tony, Sean_Owen, SeanP, chaals, MartinJ
15:13:26 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
15:13:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see MartinJ, chaals, Bryan, SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:13:32 <chaals> s/JR: blabla//
15:13:38 <DKA> zakim, who is speaking?
15:13:49 <Zakim> DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeff (40%), DKA (9%), jo (39%), francois (40%)
15:13:55 <chaals> zakim, please mute me
15:13:55 <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
15:14:02 <chaals> zakim, please mute jeff
15:14:02 <Zakim> Jeff should now be muted
15:14:46 <chaals> FD: Hope we can now work on practical stuff and not administrivia. Goal is to rework the current draft and present to the WG next week.
15:15:36 <chaals> DKA: Could we review document before next week's call?
15:15:44 <chaals> FD: In an ideal case. It will be short...
15:16:01 <jo> q+ to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do by next week too ...
15:16:38 <DKA> ack jo
15:16:38 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do by next week too ...
15:16:41 <chaals> ack jo
15:17:05 <chaals> JR: I wanted to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do by next week too ... so getting out a draft by Tuesday means I will ahve to actualy work very hard...
15:17:25 <chaals> ... and more to the point that the format may not be totally perfect as per my usual standards by then
15:17:30 <achuter> achuter has joined #bpwg
15:17:35 <jo> s/very hard/all night and over the weekend too/
15:17:48 <chaals> Topic: MobileOK Pro TF
15:19:01 <chaals> JR: I was lurking. Sounds like there is work going on. There is a regular telecon, a mailing list, and a promising discussion of a number of substantive issues.
15:19:14 <chaals> DKA: That's my impression too.
15:19:32 <chaals> Topic: Checker TF
15:19:38 <chaals> DKA: Checker went Beta.
15:20:15 <chaals> SO: No comments yet since we released - and I haven't had time since then, although there is outstanding work to do
15:20:29 <chaals> DKA: Was demoed at W3C stand, Mobile World Congress in Barcelona.
15:20:36 <chaals> FD: Wish there was feedback...
15:20:57 <Zakim> +??P43
15:21:02 <achuter> zakim, ??P43 is me
15:21:02 <Zakim> +achuter; got it
15:21:06 <chaals> ... we had some hassles setting up our web interface stuff for demos (The Demonstrator Gods strike again!!)
15:21:07 <DKA> zakim, mute achuter
15:21:07 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
15:21:07 <achuter> zakim, mute me
15:21:08 <Zakim> achuter was already muted, achuter
15:21:26 <chaals> ... most sites checked were not mobileOK, except sevenVal which came back OK.
15:21:38 <DKA> 7val's wikipedia site at wikipedia.7val.com
15:21:48 <chaals> ... so only one t-shirt given away
15:22:43 <chaals> DKA: There was a useful wikipedia production site...
15:22:58 <chaals> ... not just passing teh checker but also received no warnings.
15:23:25 <jeffs> jeffs has joined #bpwg
15:23:42 <chaals> ... they can also take advantage of advanced capabilities, e.g. to use javascript where available
15:23:58 <yeliz> can't access this site  http://weblog.200ok.org.au 
15:24:13 <chaals> Topic: Korea F2F
15:24:23 <chaals> DKA: There is a registration form - please fill it in.
15:24:31 <francois> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/seoulf2f/ Seoul F2F registration
15:25:15 <jeffs> think I fixed the problem & unmuted... please let me know if I have killed the feedback
15:25:24 <chaals> ... You need to fill out the registration if you are interested in coming. I am exceited about the mobile wednesday thing
15:25:31 <chaals> zakim, unmute jeff
15:25:31 <Zakim> Jeff should no longer be muted
15:25:41 <francois> [Note the questionnaire is mandatory even if one doesn't plan to go there]
15:25:43 <jeffs> thanks
15:25:56 <chaals> ... and should help to stimulate dialogue, etc.
15:26:26 <chaals> s/thanks//
15:26:40 <chaals> s/think I fixed the problem & unmuted... please let me know if I have killed the feedback//
15:26:52 <chaals> s/can't access this site http://weblog.200ok.org.au//
15:27:10 <chaals> Topic: Agenda discussion
15:27:21 <chaals> JR: Dan, you haven't actually structured anything yet?
15:27:36 <chaals> DKA: No, although I saw you had done a lot of great work, I didn't bother following up
15:27:53 <chaals> s/bother/get around to/
15:28:02 <chaals> s/up/up yet/
15:28:05 <jo> ACTION: Dan to draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow
15:28:05 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-662 - Draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-28].
15:28:42 <yeliz> I can access that URL now, thanks /me
15:28:44 <Bryan> q+
15:28:46 <chaals> DKA: My preference is to talk about meaty issues, in particular BP 2 and filling it out with actual stuff. That requires people to come prepared with teh top 5 things they want to see
15:28:50 <DKA> zakim, bryan
15:28:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'bryan', DKA
15:28:54 <DKA> ack bryan
15:29:16 <jo> s/I can access that URL now, thanks //
15:29:20 <chaals> s/I can access that URL now, thanks \/me//
15:29:42 <jo> s/\/me//
15:29:48 <chaals> BS: I have put a bunch of stuff together...
15:30:06 <chaals> DKA: Hopefully we will have enough to issue a FPWD
15:30:25 <chaals> ... and we are filling out stuff for MobileOK Pro
15:31:48 <chaals> JR: There are some pretty solid issues around Content Transformation. So we expect some unanswered questions that it would be good to discuss - https, UA strings, etc...
15:33:25 <chaals> Topic: Accessibility Document
15:33:31 <achuter> zakim, unmute me
15:33:31 <Zakim> achuter should no longer be muted
15:33:46 <chaals> AC: zakim, who is making noise?
15:33:59 <achuter> zakim, mute me
15:33:59 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
15:34:11 <achuter> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#MEASURES
15:34:41 <francois> q+
15:34:51 <chaals> Topic: Zaragoza F2F
15:35:10 <chaals> DKA: Cannot attend the suggested date 9-13. Think that means we should change it.
15:35:18 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#POP_UPS Pop Ups
15:35:21 <chaals> JR: Sounds like an excellent time to hold it to me
15:35:50 <edm> Please see Nacho's e-mail re Zaragoza f2f - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/0074.html
15:36:23 <chaals> JR: The poll is only accessible to DDWG - and we can't fix that until Monday. meanwhile, we have to make up our minds in a big hurry.
15:37:03 <Zakim> -Shah
15:37:14 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37583/Zaragoza-f2f/ Zaragoza Poll
15:37:17 <Jason> Jason has joined #bpwg
15:37:48 <chaals> DKA: Looks like 16-20 is the preferred alternate for DDWG
15:38:06 <Zakim> +Shah
15:38:49 <francois> q?
15:39:00 <edm> ... but as Nacho points out all we have for now is what we have now is a pre-reservation for the week of June 9-13 ...
15:39:02 <chaals> We could send an email poll toget at least an idae before Monday
15:39:07 <chaals> ack francois
15:39:20 <chaals> FD: We could set up a secon poll for this group
15:39:32 <chaals> ACTION Francois: set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
15:39:44 <chaals> ACTION: Francois set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
15:39:44 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Francois
15:40:01 <francois> ACTION: Daoust set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
15:40:01 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-663 - Set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour [on François Daoust - due 2008-02-28].
15:40:09 <achuter> jo said in minutes last week "resume doc review at POP_UPs next time]"
15:40:15 <chaals> Topic: Accessibility (again)
15:40:27 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#POP_UPS Pop Ups
15:40:27 <chaals> JR: We got to Pop-ups last time, let's resume from there
15:41:20 <achuter> zakim, unmute me
15:41:20 <Zakim> achuter should no longer be muted
15:42:09 <achuter> zakim, mute me
15:42:09 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
15:42:12 <chaals> AC: Pop-ups are a problem for people who are not seeing the whole screen, or not sure what is going on and end up closing the whole browser instead of just spare windows
15:42:19 <achuter> zakim, unmute me
15:42:19 <Zakim> achuter should no longer be muted
15:42:25 <achuter> zakim, mute me
15:42:25 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
15:42:40 <chaals> JR: Think this is fine
15:42:45 <chaals> CMN: agrees
15:42:46 <achuter> zakim, unmute me
15:42:46 <Zakim> achuter should no longer be muted
15:42:52 <chaals> BS: So pop-ups should not be used?
15:42:56 <chaals> q+
15:43:10 <chaals> AC: You need to tell the user if you are going to open a popup
15:43:11 <chaals> q=
15:43:19 <chaals> q-
15:43:39 <achuter> zakim, mute me
15:43:39 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
15:43:51 <achuter> zakim, unmute me
15:43:51 <Zakim> achuter should no longer be muted
15:43:51 <chaals> ... folloowing the mobile BP means not using them, and tra-la
15:44:09 <achuter> zakim, mute me
15:44:09 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
15:44:17 <jo> s/folloowing/following/
15:45:32 <chaals> AC: It is probably difficult for this group to comment on WCAG since almost nobody knows it here...
15:45:52 <chaals> DKA: There is no WCAG statement for "provide defaults"?
15:46:11 <MartinJ> MartinJ has left #bpwg
15:46:14 <chaals> [I agree that this is a WCAG problem. There was something related in WCAG 1, but ...]
15:46:19 <Martin1> Martin1 has joined #bpwg
15:46:23 <Kai> Kai has joined #bpwg
15:46:56 <chaals> JR: Since it is not clearly testable, it is not in WCAG. In most cases we find that Mobile BP helps accessibility even when it makes no difference to WCAG 2 compliance (the story is different for WCAG 1)
15:47:06 <Zakim> + +0496151aagg
15:47:10 <chaals> ... we should limit our comments to ...???
15:47:18 <chaals> zakim, who is making noise?
15:47:25 <chaals> Present+ Kai
15:47:29 <Zakim> chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (35%), jo (45%), Ed_Mitukiewicz (20%), +0496151aagg (40%)
15:47:39 <jo> zakim, aagg is Kai
15:47:39 <Zakim> +Kai; got it
15:48:04 <jo> s/...???/things that are unclear or incomplete
15:48:12 <chaals> AC: REDIRECTIONS - confuses people because they don't there has been a redirect, or because they have not been able to read what was there before it changed
15:48:18 <Kai> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:48:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html Kai
15:48:27 <chaals> CMN: Thinks this is fine
15:49:12 <chaals> AC: SCROLLING
15:49:26 <chaals> CMN: This one is fine
15:50:10 <chaals> AC: users with reading difficulties can have trouble scrolling around and staying oriented. multiple-direction scroll increases the load on people with limited input capability
15:50:29 <chaals> [it also helps disorient people using serious zoom without fit-to-width]
15:51:22 <chaals> JR: Structure - this gives you WCAG compliance. But this isn't intended only to cover heading structure in BP. Seems good to me.
15:51:40 <chaals> DKA: Could we mark out the practices that do contribute to compliance with an icon?
15:51:54 <achuter> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#extending_MWBP10_WCAG20
15:51:56 <chaals> JR: There is nothing that exactly maps to WCAG 2 compliance, as far as I know
15:52:08 <chaals> AC: The link shows the correspondence...
15:52:43 <jo> s/There is nothing that exactly maps to WCAG 2 compliance, as far as I know//
15:53:13 <chaals> JR: Style sheets...
15:53:16 <jo> Scribe: Jo
15:53:22 <jo> scribenick: jo
15:53:58 <jo> AC: this helps people who don't see the effects of style sheets etc.
15:54:03 <yeliz> yeliz, unmute me
15:54:11 <yeliz> q+
15:54:43 <jo> dka: that cover sytle sheets use too?
15:54:49 <Zakim> -chaals
15:54:55 <jo> ac: no but the benefits are similar
15:54:59 <jo> ack y
15:55:01 <DKA> ack yeliz
15:55:43 <jo> yeliz: might be useful to detail how this helps
15:56:00 <jo> dka: that level of detail could get us into trouble
15:56:14 <jo> ac: it would be nice to give example but would be a lot of work
15:56:39 <jo> yeliz: in some cases you do give some examples so might be an idea to do so here
15:56:56 <jo> dka: yeliz do you want to contribute some examples
15:57:28 <jeffs> perhaps RIT can find a way to be helpful with building/testing examples
15:57:33 <jo> ACTION: Yeliz to provide some examples to put into the document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT
15:57:33 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-664 - Provide some examples to put into the document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [on Yeliz Yesilada - due 2008-02-28].
15:58:41 <jo> jeffs: we can talk offline on what we can supply by way of examples
15:58:50 <yeliz> yeliz, mute me
15:58:59 <jo> dka: STYLE_SHEET_USE
15:59:03 <chaals> zakim, mute yeliz
15:59:28 <Bryan> q+
15:59:31 <Zakim> yeliz? should now be muted
15:59:35 <jo> ACTION: chuter to talk to Jeffs about what support they can provide on examples
15:59:35 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-665 - Talk to Jeffs about what support they can provide on examples [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-02-28].
16:00:08 <matt_> matt_ has joined #bpwg
16:00:11 <jo> dka: I have a problem with nomenclature - possibly covered, partially covered and possibly/partially covered
16:00:25 <jo> ac: it is intentional but may not be correct
16:00:40 <jo> dka: think that will be confusing to readers
16:01:04 <jo> ac: partially is about scope possibly is about whether it will or note
16:01:14 <jo> zakim, who is noisy?
16:01:22 <yeliz> I think it would be good to define them
16:01:25 <Zakim> jo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeff (54%), DKA (44%), jo (25%), achuter (30%)
16:01:26 <jo> ac: think they should be defined somewhere
16:01:39 <jo> zakim, mute Jeff
16:01:39 <Zakim> Jeff should now be muted
16:01:56 <jo> zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:08 <Zakim> jo, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:02:18 <jo> dka: why don't you put in a pra in the intro to define that
16:02:55 <DKA> q?
16:02:56 <jo> jo: resume from TAB_ORDER next time
16:02:58 <DKA> ack bryan
16:03:41 <jo> bryan: we need to think about whether they make sense for mobility
16:04:07 <jo> ... e.g. pop ups will be in line and other that will be conflicting
16:04:23 <achuter> q+
16:04:34 <Kai> q+
16:04:45 <Kai> q+ to ask about mobileOK Pro report
16:05:17 <jo> jo: yes this will be of importance when we are looking at WCAG to BP corresponding
16:05:28 <francois> q?
16:05:31 <francois> ack achuter
16:05:48 <jo> ac: my comment was about whether mobile devices do actually support switching of style sheet
16:06:30 <MartinJ> MartinJ has joined #bpwg
16:08:54 <chaals> AC: Yes, at least some do
16:09:15 <DKA> q?
16:09:19 <DKA> ack kai
16:09:19 <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask about mobileOK Pro report
16:09:40 <Kai> Topic: mobileOK Pro Task Force report 
16:09:40 <Kai> Kai: Here is some more information, for your perusal, from the mail I had sent to the list.. 
16:09:40 <Kai>  
16:09:40 <Kai> - The tests have been reworked by the TF 
16:09:40 <Kai> - I am currently in the process of casting the document into an editor's draft 
16:09:41 <Kai> - Due to eskalations here at work I am unable to deliver the first draft today.   
16:09:42 <jo> Topic: MobileOK Pro Report
16:09:43 <Kai>   Hopefully by early next week I will be able to do so. 
16:09:45 <Kai> - Charter has been amended and submitted to WG for approval 
16:09:47 <Kai> - Website for TF has been created 
16:09:49 <Kai> - Access for me as Editor and Author is being dealt with by Francois (I would appreciate some information to progress) 
16:09:52 <Kai> - Telco has been created and the first one held yesterday 
16:09:54 <Kai>  
16:09:56 <Kai>  
16:09:58 <Kai> Open points: 
16:10:00 <Kai>  
16:10:02 <Kai> There is a F2F meeting March 19th at the Vodafone Offices at 80 Strand, London Begin 9 am End ca. 4-6 pm 
16:10:37 <jo> Topic: BP2
16:10:59 <chaals> s/AC: Yes/[Yes Alan
16:11:04 <chaals> s/AC: Yes/[Yes Alan/
16:11:08 <jo> Bryan: I sent out a number of firestarter emails on the sections that are in the requirements doc
16:11:31 <jo> ... a number of responses and some specific suggestions
16:11:41 <jo> ... I will get these into a draft
16:11:52 <jo> ... for Seoul, have we got the scope right?
16:12:03 <jo> dka: I was hoping we could have discussion on scope
16:12:15 <jo> ... on this call to help refine the scope
16:12:34 <jo> ... Jo posted on ACTION-660 Reprise
16:13:07 <francois> ScribeNick: francois
16:13:30 <francois> DKA: my intention is to get to a resolution re the scope of the BP2
16:14:10 <francois> Jo: One of the things that strikes me is that we don't have in the document a clear definition of what a web application is and what it isn't
16:14:20 <francois> ... we did discuss that in Boston
16:14:29 <francois> ... about the browser sandbox or not
16:15:07 <francois> ... I think we should take some time to define precisely a web application
16:15:39 <francois> Bryan: there is a scope section which does define, based on November talks, a web application
16:15:45 <Kai> I like it
16:15:57 <Bryan> BP2 extends the focus to Web applications generally, which means an application that is accessed and presented via Web technologies. 
16:16:01 <srowen> I think it can be sharpened to mention HTTP, an (X)HTML
16:16:42 <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A "Mobile Web Application" shall be defined as an application that runs inside the browser on a mobile device. Such applications often make use of scripting, CSS, and Dom manipulation.
16:16:45 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080213#iddiv2126631496BP 2 Scope
16:17:39 <francois> Jo: is Chatzilla a mobile web application?
16:17:41 <francois> DKA: yes
16:17:58 <Zakim> -Tony
16:18:08 <Kai> q+
16:18:14 <srowen> agree that we do not need to talk about "browser", since our focus is the content and server side. But we can be more specific in mentioning HTTP, XHTML, CSS, Javascript
16:18:17 <Kai> q-
16:18:18 <francois> Bryan: when you say "inside the browser"... Browser technologies in general are used outside the browser
16:18:39 <Zakim> -MartinJ
16:18:56 <francois> DKA: Joost is a good example of a desktop web application
16:19:14 <DKA> q?
16:19:31 <francois> ... but I think that's out of scope
16:19:44 <francois> Jo: I do not think this is a sufficient categorization
16:19:47 <Zakim> +MartinJ
16:19:50 <jeffs> q?
16:19:59 <jeffs> q+
16:20:12 <francois> ... I don't think it's a sharp enough definition
16:20:16 <Kai> From Wikipedia: In software engineering, a Web application or webapp is an application that is accessed via Web over a network such as the Internet or an intranet.
16:20:40 <Kai>      It has been suggested that Browser application be merged into this article or section.
16:20:54 <DKA> ack jeffs
16:21:20 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
16:21:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff (muted), DKA, jo, Magnus, francois, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, [W3C-Spain], Bryan_Sullivan, yeliz? (muted), Sean_Owen, SeanP, achuter (muted), Shah, Kai,
16:21:22 <francois> zakim, unmute jeffs
16:21:24 <DKA> ack jeff
16:21:24 <Zakim> ... MartinJ
16:21:25 <Zakim> [W3C-Spain] has miguel
16:21:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see MartinJ, matt, Kai, Jason, jeffs, achuter, chaals, Bryan, SeanP, miguel, edm, drooks, Zakim, RRSAgent, Magnus, jo, DKA, srowen, yeliz, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
16:21:29 <DKA> zakim, unmute jeff
16:21:31 <Zakim> sorry, francois, I do not know which phone connection belongs to jeffs
16:21:35 <Zakim> Jeff was not muted, DKA
16:21:43 <srowen> How about this: A Mobile Web application is an application primarily intended for usage by mobile devices rather than desktop devices, using HTML or XHTML delivered over HTTP, and typically employing CSS and scripting such as Javascript.
16:22:09 <francois> Jeff: originally in the browser context but now not in the browser context anymore
16:22:41 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: WE should define a specific set of criteria that need to be fulfilled to be a Mobile Web Application
16:22:42 <jeffs> agree w srowen suggestion above
16:22:48 <francois> Sean: I think we need to make clear we're targetting xml over HTTP, mobile devices, and scripting
16:22:49 <Bryan> q+
16:23:25 <srowen> Dan -- you mentioned the browser, which I don't think is necessary (per Messr. Sullivan), and didn't mention HTTP or HTML, which seems vital
16:23:27 <jo> q+ to mention SVG, XML, the use of XMLHTTP interfaces
16:23:36 <jo> zakim, mure Jeff
16:23:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mure Jeff', jo
16:23:47 <jo> zakim, mute jeff
16:23:47 <Zakim> Jeff should now be muted
16:23:50 <DKA> q?
16:23:54 <DKA> ack bryan
16:24:00 <chaals> [I don't see that w should be targetting things specifically for mobile devices rather than web, just things that are designed to work well for mobile devices as part of teh web]
16:24:30 <Kai> [I agree with Chaals.  Where is One Web?]
16:24:43 <francois> Bryan: we should separate web applications and content type
16:25:03 <srowen> what on earth are we going to talk about that *isn't* related to HTTP and HTML
16:25:05 <francois> ... I would not limit the BP to XML, XHTML, HTML
16:25:17 <francois> ... we should not limit our scope to them
16:25:21 <jo> Actionscript ...
16:25:51 <srowen> give me an example of a legitimate existing practice related to advanced mobile devices that does not relate to the technologies listed so far
16:26:01 <francois> DKA: we should focus on existing web technologies
16:26:07 <Bryan> q+
16:26:14 <srowen> if we can't, then I don't see what the problem is with being specific and clear about what we are, in reality, talking about anyway
16:26:35 <francois> +1 to srowen remarks
16:26:56 <matt> Present- Matt
16:26:57 <edm> how about sticking to what is enabled by the existing technologies - including specificially XHTML/HTML, CSS, DOM, ECMAscript, AJAX, SVG?
16:27:18 <francois> Jo: I think we're going to end up in circles if we don't come up with something precise
16:27:19 <DKA> I'm back
16:27:37 <edm> s/specificially/specifically/
16:27:58 <francois> DKA: we should build on the Web as a platform
16:28:15 <francois> Jo: That would seem to encompass Java applets
16:28:29 <Kai> q+
16:28:39 <edm> +1 to focusing on the web as a platform - and perhaps browsers as application containers?
16:28:40 <DKA> q?
16:28:40 <jo> ack me
16:28:41 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to mention SVG, XML, the use of XMLHTTP interfaces
16:28:42 <DKA> ack jo
16:28:48 <francois> DKA: it should be about using web technologies without plugins
16:28:56 <DKA> ack bryan
16:29:18 <jo> q+ to say the plugin definition excludes SVG and a bunch of other stuff that we would want to include
16:29:35 <francois> Bryan: In general, regardless of where the application runs, if it operates as a browser, then it is a browser, and is under the scope
16:30:07 <francois> ... The applications that use HTTP as a transport and windows fall in the scope.
16:30:11 <Kai> q+ to say that web applications include services that are exposed via web technologies.  If they are intended for mobile usage they are game
16:30:12 <srowen> Agree, don't care whether we're talking about user agents based on MIDP or Symbian or ham sandwiches. But we seem to be talking about HTML/CSS/HTTP user agents, so let's say that much. Don't say "browser" if you don't want, I agree that is not necessary.
16:30:18 <francois> ... We're really talking about user experience
16:30:22 <francois> ... of web applications
16:30:25 <jo> q+ also to wonder if we are talking about applications that are based on the DOM for their opertation
16:30:31 <francois> ... that's the charter I believe
16:30:34 <DKA> http://www.openajax.org/whitepapers/Introducing%20Ajax%20and%20OpenAjax.html#What_is_Ajax
16:30:38 <DKA> q?
16:30:41 <DKA> ack kai
16:30:41 <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to say that web applications include services that are exposed via web technologies.  If they are intended for mobile usage they are game
16:31:20 <francois> Jeffs: web applications are something that offer a service.
16:31:28 <francois> ... I like Bryan's initial definition
16:31:29 <jo> s/Jeffs/Kai
16:31:36 <francois> ... I don't find it too general
16:31:37 <DKA> q?
16:31:40 <DKA> ack jo
16:31:40 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to say the plugin definition excludes SVG and a bunch of other stuff that we would want to include and to wonder if we are talking about applications that are based
16:31:44 <Zakim> ... on the DOM for their opertation
16:31:50 <srowen> Final remark: let's start by listing out best practices. I posted 5-6 to the list. At the end of the day, if we find that the real, good practices we can mention concern only HTTP/HTML/etc. then we can comfortably state that *that* is what we are talking about. Sure, let's not decide that a priori if that is unpalatable.
16:32:19 <francois> Jo: I'm wondering whether we're talking about applications that are using the DOM
16:32:31 <francois> DKA: that makes sense
16:33:17 <francois> ... is there a W3C definition that we could use?
16:33:51 <francois> ... Let's have the topic back in next week's call
16:34:11 <francois> q+ to talk about Zaragoza questionnaire once you're done Dan
16:34:31 <DKA> ack francois
16:34:31 <Zakim> francois, you wanted to talk about Zaragoza questionnaire once you're done Dan
16:34:34 <francois> DKA: I will create an issue and then we can discuss it on the mailing-list
16:34:51 <francois> Topic: Zaragoza F2F again
16:35:01 <francois> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWGDDWGF2FZARAGOZA/ Zaragoza F2F
16:35:45 <Zakim> -Sean_Owen
16:35:46 <Zakim> -Shah
16:35:46 <Zakim> -Kai
16:35:47 <Zakim> -Jeff
16:35:48 <Jason> Jason has left #bpwg
16:35:48 <srowen> srowen has left #bpwg
16:35:48 <Zakim> -SeanP
16:35:49 <Zakim> -Magnus
16:35:50 <Zakim> -MartinJ
16:35:52 <Zakim> -drooks
16:35:53 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
16:35:54 <Zakim> -jo
16:35:56 <Zakim> -achuter
16:35:56 <drooks> drooks has left #bpwg
16:35:58 <Zakim> -[W3C-Spain]
16:36:00 <Zakim> -francois
16:36:00 <yeliz> yeliz has left #bpwg
16:36:02 <Zakim> -DKA
16:36:03 <francois> Regrets: murari, AdamC, AlanTai, Aaron, rob, nacho, PhilA, hgerlach
16:36:04 <Zakim> -yeliz?
16:36:10 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:36:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:38:22 <francois> s/Topic: MobileOK Pro Report//
16:38:24 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:38:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:41:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Ed_Mitukiewicz, in MWI_BPWG()10:00AM
16:41:06 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
16:41:07 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.503.539.aaaa, +1.585.278.aabb, DKA, jo, +46.3.17.47.aacc, francois, +0776677aadd, Ed_Mitukiewicz, drooks, Magnus, Bryan_Sullivan, +1.408.227.aaee, miguel,
16:41:08 <MartinJ> MartinJ has left #bpwg
16:41:09 <Zakim> ... Sean_Owen, SeanP, chaals, Tony, yeliz?, Shah, Jeff, +0777613aaff, MartinJ, achuter, +0496151aagg, Kai
16:46:42 <francois> i/.me offers to scribe/ScribeNick: chaals/
16:46:44 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:46:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:59:55 <francois> RRSAgent, bye
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-actions.rdf :
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dan to draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow [1]
16:59:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc#T15-28-05
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Francois to set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour [2]
16:59:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc#T15-39-32
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Francois set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour [3]
16:59:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc#T15-39-44
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Daoust set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour [4]
16:59:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc#T15-40-01
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yeliz to provide some examples to put into the document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [5]
16:59:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc#T15-57-33
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chuter to talk to Jeffs about what support they can provide on examples [6]
16:59:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc#T15-59-35
17:00:05 <francois> Zakim, bye
17:00:05 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg