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08:17:42 rrsagent, make minutes
08:17:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
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08:20:15 Zakim, list
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08:23:17 (Roland and Yam are here...)
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08:26:48 (Steven had a trouble with his foot last night.... He will not be in his room, but will skype in...)
08:27:01 s/his room/this room/
08:27:34 Chair: Roland
08:27:39 Scribe: Yam
08:27:57 rrsagent, make minutes
08:27:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
08:28:15 Topic: XML Events 2 (continued from yesterday)
08:29:59 morning - hope steve's ok...
08:30:20 Hope so...
08:30:36 His ankle is improved, I heard.
08:30:38 Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 3
08:30:53 that's good to hear
08:31:30 Present: Roland, Yam, Gregory, Simone
08:32:19 Roland: we have some issues stated in Agenda.
08:32:58 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF-Agenda
08:33:27 Regrets: Tina
08:33:48 rrsagent, make minutes
08:33:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
08:34:26 John's comments in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/29-xhtml-minutes.html#action02 ?
08:35:20 ScribeNick: yamx
08:37:15 Roland: I just want to know where we are about actions.
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08:38:44 Roland: The first part (we clarified it in capture, target, bubble, default), we changed. So the issue is only action (Mark).
08:40:40 Roland: Resolution on Aug 29 2007 said we have to investigate part 2, in 0011 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0011)
08:41:34 Roland: We make default as bubble, but bubble includes "bubble" and "target" phases, so it is OK with the original issue.
08:42:38 roland, are you referring to jon's point: "if the bubble phase does exclude the target phase, then it seems like you will need a way to say target+bubble. For symmetry, I'll bet you need capture+target too. The only names that come to mind right now are"ascent" (target+bubble) and "descent" (capture+target)."
08:46:12 yesterday we concluded that bubble phase includes the target phase. I am now looking to find where in the DOM 3 Events specs that is says this.
08:53:30 Roland: In DOM3 Event, on addEventListener, useCapture parameter is a boolean.
08:54:21 Roland: , which means "capture" or "target and bubbling". only one of them.
08:54:43 Section 1.6 Basic interfaces -- http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-interface
08:55:36 Roland: it is not so clear, but seems implied.
08:56:17 Roland: All the changes we made deal with 0011 raised by John.
08:57:06 Present: Alessio
08:57:06 Roland: next issue is 0012 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0012)
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08:58:24 I think 0012 is somewhat incorrect. xml events 2 DOES specify a context.
08:58:36 see section 6.
08:58:36 rrsagent, make minutes
08:58:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
09:04:01 Roland: I remembered some discussion with XForms; they added context attribute.
09:04:29 Roland: maybe it is interesting to add context attribute if necessary, but not before we fix the current draft.
09:05:29 Roland: we keep it as it is, we have to further investigate the issue (do we really need this "context" attribute) in XML Events 2.
09:06:10 Roland: We defined the context in Sectoin 6 in XML Events 2.
09:06:48 Roland: Specifying context will be added if we identify any useful use cases.
09:07:05 Roland: Add a note about this (considering in the future in action element).
09:07:09 Shane: OK.
09:07:25 Roland: 0012 is done.
09:07:55 Roland: next issue is 0013 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0013)
09:08:13 ACTION: Shane to add text about context issue near where if and while are described with the action element in xml events 2
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09:14:25 Roland: we think that event does not traverse to more than one DOM.
09:14:40 Roland: spelled out single DOM.
09:15:47 John's note includes : Therefore, for the sake of clarity, please spell out the fact that the
09:15:48 spec does not define any bubbling behavior between two DOMs and that
09:15:48 events don't traverse more than one DOM unless a consumer of XML events
09:15:48 defines a mechanism for dispatching events in one DOM based on the
09:15:48 occurrence of events in another DOM.
09:16:31 I would have expected that a "single DOM" was assumed but it appears not to be the case.
09:17:27 simone is coming back soon
09:17:56 Roland: no harm to put a small note about single DOM, not bridging two DOMs.
09:18:04 ACTION: Shane add a note that events do not bridge two DOMs
09:18:05 We could add a note to make it clear that the capture/bubbling is within the scope of a single DOM.
09:18:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven-eee
09:18:46 Present: Steven
09:19:08 s/:/+/
09:19:27 Hope you're feeling better, Steven...
09:20:57 it is even better than first thing this morning Alessio, so I am optimitic
09:21:02 stic
09:21:22 Roland: looking into the second problem in 0013.
09:22:31 (the second issue is "For the second problem, I have to turn to the xforms repeat construct, and put a repeat within a repeat:)
09:22:44 s/t:)/t:")
09:22:47 Present: Roland, Yam, Allessio, Simone, Gregory, Shane
09:25:33 Present+Steven
09:26:02 Roland: we will probably solve the second issue, too. Hope John will review the latest spec to find out whether his issue is fixed.
09:26:30 Roland: we think we fiinshed all outstanding issues in XML Events 2.
09:26:51 Shane: I have a question about event attribute.
09:27:24 Shane: event attribute collection.
09:27:38 Roland: I imagine it is adequate.
09:27:51 Shane: working with new draft.
09:27:55 Roland: sounds good.
09:28:06 Roland: any more items on XML Events 2?
09:28:17 (none from participants)
09:29:00 Topic: frames (continued from yesterda)
09:29:28 Roland: suggests iframe back in XHTML2.
09:29:45 Roland: two types of containers should be clarified.
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09:30:23 Gregory, I believe we accepted that proposal
09:30:31 to add 'implements'
09:30:39 I believe we did as well (@implements)
09:30:44 thank you steven - i just wanted to make sure before we moved on
09:30:58 my plan is to add a comment about HASFEATURE and let someone smarter figure it out.
09:31:12 that excludes me...
09:31:26 clearly ;-)
09:31:38 ;-)
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09:33:56 (Allesio presents something on the projector.)
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09:35:18 yes steven, I will
09:38:12 network has slowed down now that we are sahing with WAI PF meeting next door :-)
09:38:13 so, we are analyzing the question of fallback for iframes
09:38:48 because one "classical" issue is the iframe poor accessibility
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09:41:09 many assistive technologies offer a "do not display iframe" option; for low vision users and alternate input users, it's the insane amount of scrolling
09:41:51 GJR: that's how bad the problem is -- AT vendors would rather have people suppress IFRAME than design an alternate strategy
09:43:12 Yam: Combining multiple documents is some essential one, some umbrella spec, e.g. XML Events 2. Not ifrems back in.
09:43:31 +1 to yam
09:43:56 s/ifrems/iframes/
09:44:21 s/some umbrella/possibly some umbrella/
09:44:22 right gregory, in fact we're only starting to explore a possibility to make an accessible object
09:44:45 unfortunately actually object is very buggy
09:45:16 but we shouldn't let our *design* be constrained by existing buggy implementations
09:45:18 for example we cannot load dynamic data, even reloading the page
09:45:24 yes, i just had that conversation in the HTML WG for the ten thousdandth time this week -- OBJECT with role over VIDEO, AUDIO, other stuff
09:45:40 if necessary we make an 'cid test' for objec to embarrass the implementors
09:45:44 I agree steven
09:45:49 me too
09:45:56 s/cid/acid/
09:46:06 in fact that I'm starting to do yesterday :)
09:46:29 s/ing/ed
09:46:33 s/ing/ed/
09:46:52 moving forward, into the future, ARIA politeness levels and other features will help with dynamic content accessibility
09:48:26 the goal is having a url like this: http://mypage.htm#src(f1=firstAddress,f2=secondAddress)
09:48:29 we are just starting to look at what we would need from a new "container". Some of the the desirable characteristics of IFRAME should be explored. We are not suggesting that we reintroduce IFRAME as is was previously defined.
09:48:32 -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/ object test
09:48:45 yes
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09:49:45 -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/results Object test results (not up to date)
09:49:54 one characteristic we need is a separate security context
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09:51:52 I think that data in an "iframe" should be in its own DOM really. its a separate, inset document. There should be no ability to communicate across the boundary.
09:53:07 Allesio: We have to introduce a method to load a content in a dynamic content.
09:53:16 s/dynamic content/dynamic manner/
09:53:56 you mean other than webapi/ajax?
09:54:09 sounds like.
09:54:27 yes shane
09:54:35 and other than the src attribute we already have that a script/handler could just change?
09:54:43 Rather than "no ability" I believe the author of the containing document should determine what, if any, ability it wishes to grant the "iframe".
09:54:49 test url (kindly hosted by simone): http://w3c.onofri.org/test.htm#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)
09:55:33 yesterday I've tried to load dynamic content both in an object and iframe
09:57:31 object seems not to refresh its "data" attribute
09:58:15 iframe does refresh its "src"
09:58:36 Roland: Simone, what do people think iframes are bad.. ?
09:59:03 Roland: so not a problem on iframes, but issues with people's use of javascript.
09:59:46 iframes test doesn't work for me Opera, FF, IE
10:01:56 06rrsagent, make minutes01
10:02:57 rrsagent, make log public
10:03:54 maybe there are some problems with security policies, steven
10:04:18 yes
10:05:54 Roland: anyway this is a problem we have to handle
10:06:16 as per default, browsers does not load something if there are not on the same domain of master page, this is an important issue on AJAXy applications ans as I see this is resolved using a proxy (server side)
10:06:31 true
10:06:38 s/ans/and
10:07:09 rrsagent, make minutes
10:07:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
10:13:02 I think the network did drop
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10:21:29 sound quality is not good enough to hear
10:24:39 (we have problems to show the loaded frames example.)
10:24:51 (Our network is very bad...)
10:25:07 (We are talking about the framework of container and needs for standardization in general.)
10:25:09 (we noticed :-) )
10:25:12 some discussion about what aspects of "container" support we should tackle as part of XHTML
10:25:49 maybe this woks: http://w3c.onofri.org/test.xml#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)
10:25:52 perhaps the container topic should be in a separate spec like we have done for XML events
10:26:25 s/wok/works/
10:26:31 But it is OK to talk it in XHTML2 framework, we can make it a separate spec if we find it appropriate in the future.
10:27:24 for example, problem maybe the MIME type shipped by the server
10:27:37 good point.
10:28:06 now is XML and works
10:28:10 From my viewpoint, to describe logical relationships of multiple docs and to describe some screen layout info for multiple (possiblly ) indpendent applications are two different things.
10:29:57 Roland: we will have a few minutes break, and have a joint meeting with WAI.
10:30:09 Yam: do we have a meeting at WAI?
10:30:09 which channel?
10:30:20 Roland: a good question. possibly at their place.
10:30:23 the PF group is in #pf
10:30:28 probably theirs as there are more of them
10:30:35 Yam: I agree.
10:30:36 how long break?
10:30:46 Long enouhg for me to shuffel to the cafe?
10:30:58 s/shuffel/shuffle
10:31:10 till they return, so hopefully not long. estimate 5-10mins
10:47:46 WAI group joining us
10:47:52 slowly assembling
10:53:10 we will use #pf channel for this first part of joint session
10:53:18 ok
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13:05:36 (after lunch break, we resume at #xhtml)
13:05:41 Scribe: Yam
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13:07:58 Presence: Diego. AL, Roland, Rich, Allesso, Simone, Dimitar, Janina, Michael,
13:08:04 s/AL/Al/
13:08:09 s/./,/
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13:08:26 s/Presence/Present/
13:08:30 s/Michael/Michael, Yam/
13:08:41 Present+Steven
13:08:55 s/Yam/Yam, Steven/
13:08:55 s/Allesso/Alessio
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13:09:32 Topic: ARIA
13:09:37 present+Gregory
13:09:54 Al: I will present the overview.
13:09:58 .. for kick-it-off.
13:10:06 rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
13:10:17 Al: ARIA suite is on 1st working draft.
13:10:37 Al: this is already very close to last call, with a bunch of markups..
13:11:00 Al: engineering decision on browser behavior is close to "complete".
13:11:29 Al: New, first time to combine role and states in one document.
13:11:51 Al: the other new thing is an approach embedding ARIA markup in a host language.
13:12:28 Al: we have two approaches, friendly to HTML5, the other is friendly to XHMTL1/XHTML2.
13:12:50 Al: included role attribute is used in HTML5-friendly way.
13:13:11 Al: new writeup should be reviewed by XHTML2, is it a deal you sign up to?
13:13:27 s/XHTML2/XHTML2-WG/
13:14:15 Al: to look for Firefox and Opera people to check its validity for them.
13:14:29 Al: missing something, raising a question about predefined role names..
13:14:44 Long-winded
13:15:08 Al: long-winded, (someone talking for a long time....)
13:15:24 Al: predefined role names, how you model web pages?
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13:15:32 s/how you/how do you/
13:15:43 -> ARIA Implementation in Host Languages http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-wai-aria-20080204/#implementation
13:15:53 Al: any outstanding issues between ARIA and XHTML2.
13:16:31 Michael: name-space friendly version; in HTML5, it is similar to role attributes: two wordings..
13:16:43 s/name-/one is name-/
13:16:55 s/in HTML5/the other for HTML5/
13:18:05 Al: CURIE.
13:18:17 Al: we should talk about access element, also.
13:18:35 Al: RDFa will come out last call shortly.
13:18:49 Al: we have to raise it, anything to be constructive...
13:19:06 Al: we are sure access module and role module to be covered.
13:19:09 Topic: CUIRE
13:19:14 Roland: hopefully short...
13:19:25