IRC log of xhtml on 2008-02-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:06:30 [RRSAgent]
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08:06:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc
08:07:12 [Steven]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 1
08:07:25 [Steven]
Chair: Steven, Roland
08:19:26 [ShaneM]
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08:34:38 [Steven]
Topic: RDFa last call
08:34:44 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
08:35:05 [Steven]
Rich: I see that ODF 1.2 will be using RDFa
08:35:28 [Roland_]
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08:35:34 [Steven]
Steven: I heard that they are changing some of the attribute names
08:35:46 [Steven]
... but that is not yet final
08:35:59 [Steven]
Roland: Well then they aren't using RDFa then
08:36:09 [Steven]
Steven: Well, they are, but with a differen syntax :-)
08:36:29 [Steven]
... I think they are inporting the attributes into their own namespace
08:36:43 [Steven]
http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200710/msg00003.html
08:36:54 [yamx]
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08:36:58 [Steven]
Roland: Does the current spec allow this?
08:37:20 [Steven]
Steven: Yes, I think all our modules are chameleon; it is the driver that adds the namespace
08:37:37 [Steven]
Roland: I think this is good. It may help clean up some of the namespace mess
08:38:45 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: To join the meeting, please ask for the skype ID for the call
08:41:01 [Steven]
Steven: I announced the RDFa last call at HCG last Friday. THe dates were announced as 6 weeks ending April 4, but that means starting 22 Feb, which I am not sure we will hit.
08:41:40 [Steven]
s/TH/Th/
08:42:19 [Steven]
... I see a new, potentially final pre-last call draft was published this weekend
08:43:53 [Steven]
... so there is still a reasonable chance to get it out this Friday
08:51:19 [yamx]
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08:55:00 [Steven]
Steven: The problem with the spec is that it is for implementors and not authors
08:55:28 [Steven]
Roland: What we really need is an RDFa cookbook, that gives lots of examples that you can just copy
08:55:33 [Steven]
... exemplars
08:56:33 [Steven]
Steven: Which examples do you think are needed?
08:57:06 [Steven]
Roland: Geo coding, people, ...
08:57:09 [Steven]
STeven: Events
08:57:16 [Steven]
s/ST/St/
08:57:37 [Steven]
Roland: W3C should be doing this much more centrally organised
08:58:17 [Steven]
... and host the namespaces and so on
09:02:18 [Steven]
Topic: CURIE last call
09:02:29 [Steven]
Steven: We got the OK on the dates at the HCG meeting
09:03:39 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes
09:03:48 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes#item05
09:06:21 [Steven]
Steven: The current draft that is up is 22 Jan, so the last changes have not been made
09:06:37 [Steven]
... I know Shane has been having trouble uploading to the W3 site
09:07:02 [Steven]
Roland: So we are OK to go?
09:07:17 [Steven]
Steven: HCG has OKd it, we can publish asap
09:07:24 [yamx]
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09:07:37 [Steven]
Roland: So we just need Shane to upload the draft
09:07:46 [Steven]
ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft
09:07:55 [Steven]
ACTION Steven: Draft last call announcement
09:08:39 [Steven]
Topic: Role
09:09:16 [Steven]
Roland: We are ready to go to second last call
09:09:40 [Steven]
... but I wonder if we should let it wait a bit so that it runs behind CURIEs, which depend on it
09:10:37 [Steven]
Rich: In ARIA some of the standard roles in the Roles spec like note and definition, they are a subclass of 'region'
09:10:43 [Steven]
... and I would not do that
09:11:08 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/
09:11:19 [Steven]
Rich: I could tweak the examples in the appendix to fix that
09:12:01 [Steven]
Rich: Why are things in orange?
09:12:18 [Steven]
Steven: [laughs] That is for all SHOULDs and MUSTs
09:12:23 [Steven]
... CSS style
09:12:32 [Steven]
Roland: But we don't say that, we should
09:12:52 [Steven]
ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange
09:13:07 [Steven]
Rich: Oh wait, I already did that change
09:13:28 [Steven]
Roland: We need a role cookbook as well
09:14:16 [Steven]
Rich: My change is in section C -
09:14:17 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/
09:14:52 [Steven]
Rich: I have to say that the taxonomy was one of the best pieces of work we (WAI) has done
09:15:10 [Steven]
... since it allowed us to check correctness really easily
09:15:38 [Steven]
... OWL is a fantastic, and simple, tool for that
09:16:06 [Steven]
Roland: Such taxonomies should be dereferencable via a URI, and not just an appendix of a doc
09:17:18 [Steven]
... so appendix C should be a separate document that people can download
09:17:26 [Steven]
Steven: Does OWL have a Media Type
09:17:32 [Steven]
s/Type/Type?/
09:17:36 [Steven]
Rich: No
09:18:06 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#MIMEType
09:18:55 [Steven]
Steven: Why is that? Oh I see, it is just RDF/XML
09:20:26 [Steven]
Steven: Maybe an interesting experiemtn to represent OWL in RDFa
09:20:48 [Steven]
s/experiemtn/experiment/
09:21:43 [Steven]
Steven: We need to decide on dates for second last call
09:22:17 [Steven]
Roland: So we publish CURIEs tomorrow, let's say, done 18 March
09:22:41 [Steven]
... and look at a role last call starting 18 March
09:22:54 [Steven]
... unless we have a lot of CURIE push back
09:25:19 [Steven]
... we should try to avoid a third last call!
09:25:40 [Steven]
Present: Rich, Roland, Steven, Yam
09:25:45 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:25:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
09:26:01 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
09:26:08 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:26:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
09:38:41 [Roland_]
one last role issue from Shane : http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001
09:43:26 [Lachy]
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09:46:20 [Steven]
Steven: So he wants the roles to be machine discoverable
09:46:25 [Steven]
... which is a good idea
09:46:40 [Steven]
... it seems like a good opportunity to use RDFa:
09:46:59 [Steven]
... when you go to the URL you get an XHTML document that is readable for the human, explaining the values
09:47:09 [Steven]
... but is also machine readable for UAs
09:49:10 [Steven]
Steven: You do want UAs to be extensible for new role values
09:49:21 [Steven]
... otherwise new role adoption would be very slow
09:49:46 [Steven]
Rich: But it may be in the middleware where the presentation of the role is made
09:49:54 [Steven]
... it may not make it down to the UA
09:50:59 [Steven]
Steven: But from the user's perspective middleware is just part of the UA
09:51:37 [Steven]
Rich: We don't have a method at present of specifying priorities of roles
09:52:06 [Steven]
... there is no semantic information that says that secondary is of lower priority to primary
09:52:20 [Steven]
... at least with RDF you can always update it later
09:52:36 [Steven]
Steven: I don;t think we disagree with his points here
09:52:44 [Steven]
Rich: No not at all
09:52:56 [Steven]
... though I doubt you can specify the end rendering
09:55:25 [Steven]
Rich: So how should we respond to him? Firstly create a URI to the roles
09:55:30 [Steven]
... the OWL document
09:55:42 [Steven]
... Steven could do an RDFa version
09:57:52 [Steven]
Steven: This is a problem with OWL not having a media type: you can't use content negotiation to specify that you only want the OWL version
10:03:47 [Steven]
Roland: So should we make it a SHOULD or a MUST that people make dereferencable definitoins of their role values?
10:03:59 [Steven]
s/toins/tions/
10:06:23 [Steven]
Roland: Is it fair not to specify which representation of RDF is required?
10:06:41 [Steven]
... otherwise the UA must be able to handle all sorts of serializations
10:06:52 [Steven]
... RDF/XML, OWL, RDFa
10:06:58 [Steven]
Steven: Triples, Turltle...
10:09:31 [Steven]
Steven: But it's not nice to exclude future possible representations of RDF either
10:10:09 [Steven]
Roland: It is a problem for interoperability though
10:14:23 [Steven]
Steven: We need to specify the exact algorithm to get to the machine readable definitions
10:14:43 [Steven]
Roland: Where do we specify the 'vocab' bit of our role namespace
10:14:49 [Steven]
Steven: Section 3
10:15:01 [Steven]
... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#
10:15:12 [Steven]
... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/#s_role_module_attributes
10:18:03 [Steven]
[Discussion of problems with IE's CSS and namespaced values]
10:23:11 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary
10:24:08 [Steven]
Roland: and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML
10:24:44 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML.
10:25:03 [Steven]
s/available RDF/available/
10:25:12 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:25:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
10:28:04 [Steven]
Roland: Going back to the issue we are discussing
10:28:10 [Steven]
http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001
10:28:40 [Steven]
STeven: We can't do the primjary/secondary importance at present
10:28:56 [Steven]
s/jary/ary/
10:29:12 [Steven]
Roland: That is being considered by UWA at present
10:29:25 [Steven]
Steven: So we could say that that is work in progress at the moment
10:29:38 [Steven]
Rich: It is beyond the scope of this release of role
10:30:07 [Steven]
Steven: So who's going to reply?
10:31:11 [Steven]
ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001
10:37:30 [Steven]
Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1
10:45:33 [Steven]
Steven: Here is an icomplete implementation report, that needs some details filling in; maybe we can do it on the fly:
10:45:34 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html
10:47:06 [yamx]
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10:49:11 [Steven]
Yam: I believe that Openwave has an implementation, but I am not sure
10:49:27 [Steven]
... Netfront definitely has
10:49:28 [alessio]
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10:51:19 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-xhtml-basic-20070713/
10:59:49 [Steven]
Steven: So what do we do? Wait for a second implementation, or argue that it is a hint, and therefore any implementation conforms
11:00:54 [Steven]
Roland: So when will OMA XHTML MP 1.2 be ratified?
11:01:02 [Steven]
Yam: Soon, it is in CR now
11:01:08 [Steven]
Steven: With inputmode?
11:01:15 [Steven]
Yam: Inputmode is in MP 1.3
11:02:10 [Tim]
Tim has joined #xhtml
11:02:13 [Steven]
Steven: The third option is to drop inputmode
11:02:31 [Tim]
hi
11:04:01 [Steven]
Roland: If OMA is happy with only one, if we could get MWI's statement that they are happy with one implementation, then we could move forward that way
11:04:28 [Steven]
Steven: So we go with option 1.
11:04:37 [Steven]
Yam: So you have to contact Mike Smith
11:08:49 [Steven]
Steven: I will try and contact Mike Smith, but he is in Tokyo, so it is a bit late now
11:09:03 [Steven]
(sent mail)
11:21:13 [Steven]
Topic: CSS Namespace
11:21:29 [Steven]
Steven: I see CSS has published a last call on namespaces in CSS
11:21:45 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item23
11:22:05 [Steven]
Steven: We should review it
11:28:20 [Steven]
[ADJOURN for lunch]
11:28:41 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module
11:57:18 [myakura]
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12:47:16 [Roland_]
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12:51:31 [Steven]
About to reconvene
12:54:59 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:54:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:02:00 [Rich]
Rich has joined #xhtml
13:02:05 [Steven]
Present+Alessio
13:10:56 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes
13:11:05 [ShaneM]
/whois r*
13:11:20 [ShaneM]
hi - alarm malfunction
13:11:37 [Steven]
I didn't know you could wildcard whois Shane
13:11:40 [Steven]
Thanks
13:12:04 [Steven]
Hi Shane
13:12:10 [Steven]
We've already done quite a lot
13:12:13 [Steven]
see the minutes
13:12:17 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes
13:12:24 [Steven]
Present+Shane
13:12:31 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:12:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:14:01 [Steven]
What is the prob with the W3C site Shane?
13:14:19 [Steven]
Regrets: Tina
13:14:33 [ShaneM]
the "2008" folder fell out of my jigedit tree again
13:14:41 [Steven]
Strange
13:14:46 [ShaneM]
annoying
13:14:50 [Steven]
but you did fix it the first time?
13:15:04 [ShaneM]
they fixed it on weds. broke on fri or sat.
13:15:11 [Steven]
:-)
13:15:20 [Steven]
Do you know what caused it?
13:15:44 [ShaneM]
not a clue. just went away. dont let me distract from the meeting tho plz. I will work this in parallel
13:15:51 [Steven]
sure
13:15:57 [Steven]
we're just restarting after lunch
13:16:09 [Steven]
We are in a beautiful old Venetian Palace
13:16:15 [Steven]
with a view on the canal
13:16:17 [yamx]
yamx has joined #xhtml
13:16:28 [Steven]
It was a little chilly this morning, but we have the sun on our backs now
13:16:56 [Steven]
Want to skype shane?
13:17:28 [oedipus]
GJR: good afternoon/morning/[your time of day here]!; will be participating in this session in a minute -- going over the IRC log and minutes
13:17:50 [alessio]
hi shane, gregory
13:18:05 [oedipus]
steven, i hope i didn't muck things up by trying to fix the datestamp on the wiki!
13:18:35 [Steven]
Present+Gregory
13:18:36 [oedipus]
aloha, alessio -- it's good to hear you, but i wish i were doing so in person (and with a speech synthesizer)!
13:18:41 [Steven]
No Gregory, I hadn't noticed
13:18:53 [Steven]
was that that it said 2007 instead of 2008?
13:19:28 [oedipus]
yeah - the files themselves were datestamped 2007 so i set redirects to the same content with a 2008 datestamp
13:19:35 [alessio]
I know gregory...
13:19:52 [Steven]
good work; we wondered who had done that, but were glad
13:20:18 [Steven]
Topic: XHTML2
13:20:28 [oedipus]
just glad i didn't screw things up -- and VERY glad that the wiki is a mediawiki
13:21:14 [Steven]
Roland: So at the last FtF we decided that since there is now HTML5 we can be more radical and achieve more advantages to meet our aims
13:21:30 [Steven]
Rich: UWA are trying to do the same things. Maybe we can pool
13:22:23 [Steven]
Roland: I suggest we focus on the markup side of what gets authored
13:22:34 [Steven]
... UWA focusses on adaptation
13:22:42 [Steven]
... but we need to make sure they gel
13:22:49 [Steven]
... but there is a good separation of work
13:22:55 [Steven]
Yam: I have two views
13:23:11 [Steven]
... XHTML2 is far more new generation markup
13:23:27 [Steven]
... but lessons from the past: we need to work faster
13:23:46 [Steven]
... and changing path now might make more volatility
13:24:24 [Steven]
... XHTML1 is more conservative than HTML5 in some respects
13:24:59 [Steven]
... in M12N we don't specify semantics, leaving HTML4 to specify the semantics
13:25:47 [Steven]
... we need to cut and paste the semantics somewhere, and decalre HTML4 is the past
13:26:07 [Steven]
... we can use some parts of HTML5, such as <section>
13:26:35 [Steven]
... with existing browsers we can easily represent XHTML2
13:27:01 [Steven]
Steven: Well, the semantics *have* already been moved to the XHTML2 spec
13:28:55 [Steven]
... I've never really understood the objections to XHTML2, since it pretty much all can be done in existing browsers already
13:29:17 [Steven]
... my conclusion is that namespaces are the root of the complaints
13:29:53 [Steven]
Yam: I just don't understand why people have problems with namespaces. You really need them, and they are an underpinning of W3C
13:30:26 [Steven]
Steven: I think in the end that HTML5 will discover that they need something like namespaces anyway, even if they call it something else
13:30:48 [Steven]
Roland: We need to find a way to make authoring with namespaces easy
13:30:50 [ShaneM]
The problem with namespaces is the ability to arbitrarily change prefixes throughout a document stream. Overengineered. You just need the ability to establish a prefix binding for scoping.
13:32:05 [Steven]
Roland: Maybe we could move everything into a single namespace
13:32:23 [Steven]
Yam: I don't really see the problem
13:34:09 [Steven]
Roland: Our design should minimise the need for namespaces in authoring
13:35:40 [Steven]
Yam: We need to make XHTML2 real as soon as possible
13:35:53 [Steven]
Steven: There is an open source javascript library for XForms
13:36:14 [Steven]
... we could expand that to do the rest of XHTML2, so it would work in browsers now
13:38:02 [Steven]
Roland: So what is it that we are doing new?
13:38:29 [Steven]
Steven: Device independence, accessibility, internationalisation
13:38:36 [Steven]
... authoring
13:39:54 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1 to Roland's "move everything into a single namespace"
13:40:56 [Steven]
Alessio: If you want video or audio, you should use SMIL content for that
13:44:06 [Steven]
Roland: If I want to compose different content from different languages I should be able to.
13:44:25 [oedipus]
GJR: SMIL Timesheets - a good model offering user-end control a là stylesheets; role for OBJECT also good idea rather than VIDEO, AUDIO, etc.
13:46:08 [Steven]
Alessio: I strongly believe that we should use CML markup to represent the blocks that are combined in a page
13:47:34 [Steven]
Steven: What you want to do for documents ROland is what modularisation does for languages
13:47:35 [Steven]
Roland: Yes
13:47:48 [Steven]
... you want to compose documents from document blocks
13:47:56 [Steven]
... 'islands'
13:48:09 [Steven]
s/RORo/
13:48:15 [Steven]
s/RO/Ro/
13:51:31 [Steven]
Steven: This is why all elements have a src attribute
13:51:58 [Steven]
... to allow you to import that content, but if the link fails or media type doesn't match, you still have some content
13:52:18 [Steven]
Roland: I think the content should be able to be changed on the fly, at runtime
13:53:05 [Steven]
[discussion of widgets, and their definition]
13:53:21 [Steven]
Yam: What is the difference between widget and application?
13:53:33 [Steven]
Alessio: none
13:53:51 [Steven]
Yam: From my point of view, it's all applications
13:54:07 [Steven]
Roland: I think it's just terminology
13:54:27 [oedipus]
GJR: that's why we need the semiotic web, not just the semantic web!
13:54:41 [Steven]
... it is independently written, it publishes its events, and defines what it will do in the page context
13:56:32 [Steven]
Roland: One of the current problems with'widgets' is the security issue
13:56:42 [Steven]
s/with/with /
13:56:56 [Steven]
Roland: We should address that
13:57:24 [Steven]
... people like openajax are working on it
13:57:43 [oedipus]
GJR: notes that PF just dealt with a potential scripting trojan horse delivery method by removing aria's secret property, due to possibility of author abuse
13:57:52 [Steven]
... but we need to mark the security boundaries in documents
13:59:36 [Steven]
Alessio: Aggregation of documents is very important, thart HTML5 is missing
14:00:49 [Steven]
Steven: Part of the problem is that they didn't design composability into XML, look at unique IDs
14:01:20 [Steven]
Roland: WHen XML Schema started I asked for an 'XML Document' datatype, and they said "We can't do that"
14:02:09 [oedipus]
roland, who said "we can't do that"?
14:03:09 [Steven]
Gregory, XML doesn't allow composition of documents; it was the schema WG who said that
14:03:29 [oedipus]
thanks for the clarification -- that's what i concluded, but wanted to be sure
14:06:28 [Steven]
Roland: We need to define event boundaries when including other 'applications' using src on an element
14:06:38 [Steven]
Yam: We definitely need some guidelines
14:06:47 [gshults]
gshults has joined #xhtml
14:07:15 [Steven]
Roland: It may depend on particular events, some may be allowed to go over boundaries
14:07:20 [Steven]
... and some not
14:07:32 [ShaneM]
Have you considered http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/
14:07:52 [Steven]
... Google maps sends events into the containing page
14:08:23 [gshults]
Gerrie Shults here. What phone # and code do I call?
14:10:00 [gshults]
OK. It'll take me some time to get Skype installed and configured
14:10:11 [Steven]
sorry about that Gerrie
14:10:40 [gshults]
Some things just can't be helped/avoided.
14:11:22 [oedipus]
q cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#security"
14:11:22 [oedipus]
"Application authors should be aware that content retrieved from another site is not itself trustable. Authors should protect themselves against cross-site scripting attacks by not rendering or executing the retrieved content directly without validating that content. Authors sharing content with domains that are on shared hosting environments should ensure to not allow access from arbitrary ports on those domains."
14:14:06 [yamx]
Thank you for the reference.
14:17:42 [Steven]
Roland: So one of the core issues we should deal with is composition
14:18:14 [Steven]
s/WHen/When/
14:20:32 [Steven]
Roland: And make sure that composite objects are first class citizens, with security, events, etc all taken care of
14:20:39 [Steven]
... we need to work with other groups, and we tqake care of the markup bit
14:20:47 [Steven]
s/tq/t/
14:22:16 [Steven]
Roland: Many of the security problems are the fault of security experts being unable to explain the issues to the outside world
14:22:44 [Steven]
... people we need to work with iunclude UWA, Web API, Security
14:24:26 [Roland_]
Web Security Context Working Group -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/wsc-charter
14:26:59 [Steven]
Roland: Are there any other issues we need to address in XHTML2?
14:27:31 [ShaneM]
I think we need to publish an updated draft RIGHT NOW. how can we do that?
14:27:46 [Steven]
Steven: We have been waiting for RDFa, role to be ready to plug them all together
14:27:56 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:29:00 [Steven]
Roland: Should we be creating legacy modules?
14:30:02 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2
14:30:47 [ShaneM]
feel free to comment on the editors draft. its current.
14:30:49 [Steven]
Steven: The question of new modules relates rather to M12N V2
14:31:25 [oedipus]
shane, ok - that's what i was checking over the weekend - i should check the issues list before posting anything, though...
14:32:26 [Steven]
Rich: Then there is the naming problem
14:32:37 [markbirbeck]
I have to make still more changes to the RDFa syntax document :( so can't join yet.
14:32:38 [Steven]
Alessio: XHTML2 SP1
14:33:10 [markbirbeck]
But...can't we produce a modularised version of XHTML 2 using the current M12N?
14:33:39 [markbirbeck]
Would give XHTML 2 a little momentum if it was simply a set of modules/extensions to XHTML 1.1.
14:33:41 [ShaneM]
no you cannot
14:34:21 [oedipus]
GJR: what would give XHTML2 momentum would be to go to TR before HTML5
14:34:26 [ShaneM]
I dont htink you all can hear me on skype... steven can you check your mute or whatever?
14:35:23 [Steven]
SHane: ... crackle... splut...
14:35:27 [Steven]
s/SH/Sh/
14:35:40 [Steven]
Now you realise Mark???
14:35:42 [ShaneM]
I will figure it put
14:36:02 [ShaneM]
I will stop call and calibrate microphone
14:36:30 [Steven]
we will stop to get a coffee
14:37:00 [Steven]
Jersey??? What are you doing there?
14:37:24 [oedipus]
er, new jersey, not the isle of...
14:37:28 [Steven]
ah!
14:37:38 [oedipus]
but i consider myself a jerseyman above all else!
14:38:56 [Steven]
Shane: A question
14:39:23 [Steven]
... we should put a draft out of XHTML2 now, and we could do a M12n 2 at any time we wanted
14:39:50 [Steven]
Roland: Will we be able to mix and match M12N2 and M12N 1.1 modules?
14:40:07 [Steven]
Shane: No real need since every module in 1.1 is also in 2.0
14:40:40 [yamx]
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14:42:11 [Steven]
Roland: Can we use the headers module from 1.1 for instance
14:42:37 [Steven]
Shane: There isn't one, the text module is rather large in 1.1
14:42:44 [gshults]
How do I call in with Skype?
14:43:09 [gshults]
thx
14:43:10 [Steven]
lowercase
14:50:55 [Steven]
Steven: Just got a reply from Mike Smith that he is OK with us moving forward with one implementation
14:59:25 [Steven]
Shane: There are three things we have to do right now to get out a new XHTML2 WD
15:00:30 [Steven]
s/There are/What are the/
15:00:33 [Steven]
s/WD/WD?/
15:00:59 [Steven]
Shane: What is new: rdfa stuff, which is out of synch
15:01:08 [Steven]
Steven: But we can point to the RDFa spec now
15:01:17 [Steven]
... like we do with XForms
15:01:28 [Steven]
Roland: And there is CURIEs and role
15:01:47 [Steven]
Shane: Not sure we can do it with RDFa
15:02:00 [Steven]
... because it is an M12N 1.1 module
15:02:10 [Steven]
Steven: But XFOrms is modularised at all (yet)
15:02:24 [Steven]
s/XFO/XFo/
15:02:37 [Steven]
Steven: The syntax is trivial
15:02:49 [Steven]
... we refer to RDFa for the semantics
15:03:21 [Steven]
Roland: Access is in XHTML2 as well
15:03:31 [Steven]
... so we can refer to those too
15:03:58 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-access.html#s_accessmodule
15:04:23 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-diff.html
15:06:20 [Steven]
Roland: So sections 23 and 24 can largely be deleted
15:07:52 [Steven]
Steven: And PLEASE let us drop the style attribute
15:08:02 [oedipus]
23 and 24 are the 2 metadata sections, right?
15:08:13 [Steven]
Roland: We can move them to legacy modules
15:09:08 [Steven]
Shane: I think it is worth keeping the style attribute
15:10:58 [oedipus]
GJR: style as in 29, not 28? or both?
15:11:20 [Steven]
Shane: One of the reasons we have everything inline was to make a readable document.
15:11:40 [Steven]
... where everything was defined in place
15:12:22 [Steven]
... I don't mind if we drop that requirement
15:12:40 [oedipus]
GJR: would be willing to give up 28 (which is really inline style declarations as substitue for FONT), but not 29
15:13:05 [Steven]
I agree Gregory, but there is no consensus here I am afraid
15:13:25 [oedipus]
well, count me as plus one to deleting 28 and retaining 29
15:13:29 [Steven]
Yes, we are talking about 28, not 29
15:14:22 [oedipus]
section 29 is perilously close to HTML5's "Presentational markup" - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#presentational
15:14:26 [ShaneM]
basically we want to chnage section 4 so that some items are now outside the document - then remove the relevant sections.
15:14:40 [oedipus]
s/section 29/section 28/
15:17:09 [Steven]
Roland: Going back to headings and legacy
15:19:29 [Steven]
Steven: Well I think they are two different things. Firstly we need to decide what is in XHTML2, and secondly we need to decide what is M12N v2
15:19:35 [yamx0]
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15:19:36 [Steven]
Shane: But creating an h1-6 legacy module is fine
15:19:41 [yamx]
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15:19:46 [Steven]
Steven: All *HTML* (where the *s are wildcards) shoukd be in a module somewhere
15:22:51 [yamx]
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15:24:28 [Steven]
s/kd/ld/
15:24:47 [Steven]
Roland: Is there an M12N v2 document yet?
15:24:51 [Steven]
Shane: no, only in the source tree
15:25:27 [Steven]
Roland: Is there anything else at this stage that needs to go into XHTML2?
15:25:31 [Steven]
Steven: Don't think so
15:25:33 [Steven]
Topic: XFrames
15:25:47 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xframes
15:25:53 [Steven]
Roland: Why isn't iframe in XHTML2?
15:25:57 [Steven]
Steven: Because everything you can do with iframe you can do with object
15:28:04 [Steven]
Alessio: but object allows fallback
15:28:55 [Steven]
Rich: We should create a taxonomy for all elements like we did for ARIA
15:29:20 [Steven]
Roland: There is a question of familiarity
15:30:04 [oedipus]
GJR: i may be mistaken, but with widgets and "Web 2.0" apps, framesets are far less common then they once were...
15:31:24 [Steven]
Gregory, the question was about iframe rather than framesets
15:31:42 [Steven]
but yes, it is true
15:31:53 [Steven]
partly also because the design of framesets is so bad
15:31:53 [oedipus]
ah, well, what used to be in IFRAME is increasingly stuffed into a proprietary mime-type
15:32:06 [oedipus]
GJR: such as flash, etc.
15:32:35 [Steven]
yes, and using DOM manipulation
15:33:11 [oedipus]
GJR: i am in agreement with StevenP and Alessio -- object rather than iframe should be the way to move forward
15:37:04 [Steven]
Roland: I would like to adopt the "sub URIs visible in the top-level URI" feature of XFrames into XHTML2 as a whole
15:37:40 [Steven]
Rich: I agree in simplification (resucing the elements in the language)
15:37:46 [Steven]
s/suc/duc/
15:40:20 [Roland_]
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15:41:04 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:41:56 [Steven]
Present+Gerrie
15:42:20 [Steven]
Yam: Drop the name Frame
15:42:30 [Steven]
Steven: Yes, maybe it sends the wrong message
15:42:47 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:42:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:43:22 [Steven]
Regrets+Mark
15:55:47 [Steven]
Topic: TOmorrow's agenda
15:56:27 [Steven]
Roland: XML Events 2
15:56:27 [Steven]
s/TO/To/
15:57:32 [ShaneM]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/
15:57:53 [yamx]
Thank you, Shane, for reference.
15:59:40 [Steven]
... and its relationship to XBL(2)
15:59:47 [Steven]
ok
15:59:51 [Steven]
:-)
16:00:01 [Steven]
We are cold, need to adjourn
16:00:05 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
16:00:21 [oedipus]
thanks for facillitating (and putting up with) remote participation
16:00:25 [Rich]
Rich has left #xhtml
16:00:27 [Steven]
ADJOURN
16:01:26 [Steven]
did I get it wrong???
16:01:30 [Steven]
shame on me
16:01:51 [oedipus]
you left of the dot h t m l which is part of the URI
16:02:10 [oedipus]
it didn't show as a link, which is why i investigated via "edit"
16:03:34 [Steven]
well I did that deliberately
16:04:02 [oedipus]
ah, but the link won't work if there isn't a dot h t m l attached to it, unlike the IRC log URI
16:04:07 [Steven]
W3C knows, and uses nontent negotiation when there are several resources
16:04:18 [Steven]
Yes it will!
16:04:34 [oedipus]
it didn't with IE, SeaMonkey or Minefield...
16:05:01 [Steven]
Works for me
16:05:24 [oedipus]
are you entering the URI into the location bar, or following the wiki link?
16:05:53 [oedipus]
works without the dot h t m l in lynx...
16:06:27 [oedipus]
mediawiki is very picky about extentions -- anything without one, it treats as an internal resource
16:07:24 [oedipus]
i use media wiki on the linux foundation site, so am all too familiar with its peculiarities
16:08:11 [Steven]
ah, it is media wiki messing it up?
16:08:13 [Steven]
hmmm
16:08:23 [oedipus]
seems that XHTML tagging is disabled -- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Tag_extensions
16:08:54 [oedipus]
tried to add an acronym expansion for W3C on my User:GJR page, but it appeared as part of the text, not as markup
16:10:13 [oedipus]
and, yes, it is media wiki messing up the content negotiation -- all wiki pages are in flat hierarchical structure -- what appears to be directory structure is an illusion, which is why ending a wiki URI with a trailing slash leads you not to an expected page, but to a "this page does not yet exist"
16:11:01 [oedipus]
in other words foo/foo2/index.html cannot be accessed using foo/foo2/, but needs the entire URI
16:11:27 [oedipus]
foo/foo2 and foo/foo2/ are 2 separate URIs where media wiki is concerned
16:11:54 [oedipus]
which is why i had to set up redirects for each apparent "directory" at a11y.org
16:12:13 [oedipus]
redirecting the URI with the trailing slash to an actual resource
16:17:08 [oedipus]
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions/Code
16:17:33 [oedipus]
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions
16:18:16 [oedipus]
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Security_issues_with_authorization_extensions
16:18:58 [oedipus]
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix
16:19:28 [oedipus]
probably more sysadmin stuff than you'd like, but media wiki can be a lot more flexible and secure with certain extensions
16:37:34 [Lachy]
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21:19:43 [Steven-eee]
rrsagent, bye
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-actions.rdf :
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft [1]
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-46
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to Draft last call announcement [2]
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-55
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange [3]
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-12-52
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001 [4]
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T10-31-11
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module [5]
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T11-28-41
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 [6]
21:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T14-30-02