08:06:30 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
08:06:30 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc
08:07:12 Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 1
08:07:25 Chair: Steven, Roland
08:19:26 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
08:34:38 Topic: RDFa last call
08:34:44 Scribe: Steven
08:35:05 Rich: I see that ODF 1.2 will be using RDFa
08:35:28 Roland_ has joined #xhtml
08:35:34 Steven: I heard that they are changing some of the attribute names
08:35:46 ... but that is not yet final
08:35:59 Roland: Well then they aren't using RDFa then
08:36:09 Steven: Well, they are, but with a differen syntax :-)
08:36:29 ... I think they are inporting the attributes into their own namespace
08:36:43 http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200710/msg00003.html
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08:36:58 Roland: Does the current spec allow this?
08:37:20 Steven: Yes, I think all our modules are chameleon; it is the driver that adds the namespace
08:37:37 Roland: I think this is good. It may help clean up some of the namespace mess
08:38:45 Steven has changed the topic to: To join the meeting, please ask for the skype ID for the call
08:41:01 Steven: I announced the RDFa last call at HCG last Friday. THe dates were announced as 6 weeks ending April 4, but that means starting 22 Feb, which I am not sure we will hit.
08:41:40 s/TH/Th/
08:42:19 ... I see a new, potentially final pre-last call draft was published this weekend
08:43:53 ... so there is still a reasonable chance to get it out this Friday
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08:55:00 Steven: The problem with the spec is that it is for implementors and not authors
08:55:28 Roland: What we really need is an RDFa cookbook, that gives lots of examples that you can just copy
08:55:33 ... exemplars
08:56:33 Steven: Which examples do you think are needed?
08:57:06 Roland: Geo coding, people, ...
08:57:09 STeven: Events
08:57:16 s/ST/St/
08:57:37 Roland: W3C should be doing this much more centrally organised
08:58:17 ... and host the namespaces and so on
09:02:18 Topic: CURIE last call
09:02:29 Steven: We got the OK on the dates at the HCG meeting
09:03:39 http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes
09:03:48 http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes#item05
09:06:21 Steven: The current draft that is up is 22 Jan, so the last changes have not been made
09:06:37 ... I know Shane has been having trouble uploading to the W3 site
09:07:02 Roland: So we are OK to go?
09:07:17 Steven: HCG has OKd it, we can publish asap
09:07:24 yamx has joined #xhtml
09:07:37 Roland: So we just need Shane to upload the draft
09:07:46 ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft
09:07:55 ACTION Steven: Draft last call announcement
09:08:39 Topic: Role
09:09:16 Roland: We are ready to go to second last call
09:09:40 ... but I wonder if we should let it wait a bit so that it runs behind CURIEs, which depend on it
09:10:37 Rich: In ARIA some of the standard roles in the Roles spec like note and definition, they are a subclass of 'region'
09:10:43 ... and I would not do that
09:11:08 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/
09:11:19 Rich: I could tweak the examples in the appendix to fix that
09:12:01 Rich: Why are things in orange?
09:12:18 Steven: [laughs] That is for all SHOULDs and MUSTs
09:12:23 ... CSS style
09:12:32 Roland: But we don't say that, we should
09:12:52 ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange
09:13:07 Rich: Oh wait, I already did that change
09:13:28 Roland: We need a role cookbook as well
09:14:16 Rich: My change is in section C -
09:14:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/
09:14:52 Rich: I have to say that the taxonomy was one of the best pieces of work we (WAI) has done
09:15:10 ... since it allowed us to check correctness really easily
09:15:38 ... OWL is a fantastic, and simple, tool for that
09:16:06 Roland: Such taxonomies should be dereferencable via a URI, and not just an appendix of a doc
09:17:18 ... so appendix C should be a separate document that people can download
09:17:26 Steven: Does OWL have a Media Type
09:17:32 s/Type/Type?/
09:17:36 Rich: No
09:18:06 http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#MIMEType
09:18:55 Steven: Why is that? Oh I see, it is just RDF/XML
09:20:26 Steven: Maybe an interesting experiemtn to represent OWL in RDFa
09:20:48 s/experiemtn/experiment/
09:21:43 Steven: We need to decide on dates for second last call
09:22:17 Roland: So we publish CURIEs tomorrow, let's say, done 18 March
09:22:41 ... and look at a role last call starting 18 March
09:22:54 ... unless we have a lot of CURIE push back
09:25:19 ... we should try to avoid a third last call!
09:25:40 Present: Rich, Roland, Steven, Yam
09:25:45 rrsagent, make minutes
09:25:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
09:26:01 rrsagent, make log public
09:26:08 rrsagent, make minutes
09:26:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
09:38:41 one last role issue from Shane : http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001
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09:46:20 Steven: So he wants the roles to be machine discoverable
09:46:25 ... which is a good idea
09:46:40 ... it seems like a good opportunity to use RDFa:
09:46:59 ... when you go to the URL you get an XHTML document that is readable for the human, explaining the values
09:47:09 ... but is also machine readable for UAs
09:49:10 Steven: You do want UAs to be extensible for new role values
09:49:21 ... otherwise new role adoption would be very slow
09:49:46 Rich: But it may be in the middleware where the presentation of the role is made
09:49:54 ... it may not make it down to the UA
09:50:59 Steven: But from the user's perspective middleware is just part of the UA
09:51:37 Rich: We don't have a method at present of specifying priorities of roles
09:52:06 ... there is no semantic information that says that secondary is of lower priority to primary
09:52:20 ... at least with RDF you can always update it later
09:52:36 Steven: I don;t think we disagree with his points here
09:52:44 Rich: No not at all
09:52:56 ... though I doubt you can specify the end rendering
09:55:25 Rich: So how should we respond to him? Firstly create a URI to the roles
09:55:30 ... the OWL document
09:55:42 ... Steven could do an RDFa version
09:57:52 Steven: This is a problem with OWL not having a media type: you can't use content negotiation to specify that you only want the OWL version
10:03:47 Roland: So should we make it a SHOULD or a MUST that people make dereferencable definitoins of their role values?
10:03:59 s/toins/tions/
10:06:23 Roland: Is it fair not to specify which representation of RDF is required?
10:06:41 ... otherwise the UA must be able to handle all sorts of serializations
10:06:52 ... RDF/XML, OWL, RDFa
10:06:58 Steven: Triples, Turltle...
10:09:31 Steven: But it's not nice to exclude future possible representations of RDF either
10:10:09 Roland: It is a problem for interoperability though
10:14:23 Steven: We need to specify the exact algorithm to get to the machine readable definitions
10:14:43 Roland: Where do we specify the 'vocab' bit of our role namespace
10:14:49 Steven: Section 3
10:15:01 ... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#
10:15:12 ... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/#s_role_module_attributes
10:18:03 [Discussion of problems with IE's CSS and namespaced values]
10:23:11 RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary
10:24:08 Roland: and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML
10:24:44 RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML.
10:25:03 s/available RDF/available/
10:28:04 Roland: Going back to the issue we are discussing
10:28:10 http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001
10:28:40 STeven: We can't do the primjary/secondary importance at present
10:28:56 s/jary/ary/
10:29:12 Roland: That is being considered by UWA at present
10:29:25 Steven: So we could say that that is work in progress at the moment
10:29:38 Rich: It is beyond the scope of this release of role
10:30:07 Steven: So who's going to reply?
10:31:11 ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001
10:37:30 Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1
10:45:33 Steven: Here is an icomplete implementation report, that needs some details filling in; maybe we can do it on the fly:
10:45:34 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html
10:47:06 yamx has joined #xhtml
10:49:11 Yam: I believe that Openwave has an implementation, but I am not sure
10:49:27 ... Netfront definitely has
10:49:28 alessio has joined #xhtml
10:51:19 http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-xhtml-basic-20070713/
10:59:49 Steven: So what do we do? Wait for a second implementation, or argue that it is a hint, and therefore any implementation conforms
11:00:54 Roland: So when will OMA XHTML MP 1.2 be ratified?
11:01:02 Yam: Soon, it is in CR now
11:01:08 Steven: With inputmode?
11:01:15 Yam: Inputmode is in MP 1.3
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11:02:13 Steven: The third option is to drop inputmode
11:02:31 hi
11:04:01 Roland: If OMA is happy with only one, if we could get MWI's statement that they are happy with one implementation, then we could move forward that way
11:04:28 Steven: So we go with option 1.
11:04:37 Yam: So you have to contact Mike Smith
11:08:49 Steven: I will try and contact Mike Smith, but he is in Tokyo, so it is a bit late now
11:09:03 (sent mail)
11:21:13 Topic: CSS Namespace
11:21:29 Steven: I see CSS has published a last call on namespaces in CSS
11:21:45 http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item23
11:22:05 Steven: We should review it
11:28:20 [ADJOURN for lunch]
11:28:41 ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module
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12:51:31 About to reconvene
12:54:59 rrsagent, make minutes
12:54:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:02:00 Rich has joined #xhtml
13:02:05 Present+Alessio
13:10:56 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes
13:11:05 /whois r*
13:11:20 hi - alarm malfunction
13:11:37 I didn't know you could wildcard whois Shane
13:11:40 Thanks
13:12:04 Hi Shane
13:12:10 We've already done quite a lot
13:12:13 see the minutes
13:12:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes
13:12:24 Present+Shane
13:12:31 rrsagent, make minutes
13:12:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:14:01 What is the prob with the W3C site Shane?
13:14:19 Regrets: Tina
13:14:33 the "2008" folder fell out of my jigedit tree again
13:14:41 Strange
13:14:46 annoying
13:14:50 but you did fix it the first time?
13:15:04 they fixed it on weds. broke on fri or sat.
13:15:11 :-)
13:15:20 Do you know what caused it?
13:15:44 not a clue. just went away. dont let me distract from the meeting tho plz. I will work this in parallel
13:15:51 sure
13:15:57 we're just restarting after lunch
13:16:09 We are in a beautiful old Venetian Palace
13:16:15 with a view on the canal
13:16:17 yamx has joined #xhtml
13:16:28 It was a little chilly this morning, but we have the sun on our backs now
13:16:56 Want to skype shane?
13:17:28 GJR: good afternoon/morning/[your time of day here]!; will be participating in this session in a minute -- going over the IRC log and minutes
13:17:50 hi shane, gregory
13:18:05 steven, i hope i didn't muck things up by trying to fix the datestamp on the wiki!
13:18:35 Present+Gregory
13:18:36 aloha, alessio -- it's good to hear you, but i wish i were doing so in person (and with a speech synthesizer)!
13:18:41 No Gregory, I hadn't noticed
13:18:53 was that that it said 2007 instead of 2008?
13:19:28 yeah - the files themselves were datestamped 2007 so i set redirects to the same content with a 2008 datestamp
13:19:35 I know gregory...
13:19:52 good work; we wondered who had done that, but were glad
13:20:18 Topic: XHTML2
13:20:28 just glad i didn't screw things up -- and VERY glad that the wiki is a mediawiki
13:21:14 Roland: So at the last FtF we decided that since there is now HTML5 we can be more radical and achieve more advantages to meet our aims
13:21:30 Rich: UWA are trying to do the same things. Maybe we can pool
13:22:23 Roland: I suggest we focus on the markup side of what gets authored
13:22:34 ... UWA focusses on adaptation
13:22:42 ... but we need to make sure they gel
13:22:49 ... but there is a good separation of work
13:22:55 Yam: I have two views
13:23:11 ... XHTML2 is far more new generation markup
13:23:27 ... but lessons from the past: we need to work faster
13:23:46 ... and changing path now might make more volatility
13:24:24 ... XHTML1 is more conservative than HTML5 in some respects
13:24:59 ... in M12N we don't specify semantics, leaving HTML4 to specify the semantics
13:25:47 ... we need to cut and paste the semantics somewhere, and decalre HTML4 is the past
13:26:07 ... we can use some parts of HTML5, such as
13:26:35 ... with existing browsers we can easily represent XHTML2
13:27:01 Steven: Well, the semantics *have* already been moved to the XHTML2 spec
13:28:55 ... I've never really understood the objections to XHTML2, since it pretty much all can be done in existing browsers already
13:29:17 ... my conclusion is that namespaces are the root of the complaints
13:29:53 Yam: I just don't understand why people have problems with namespaces. You really need them, and they are an underpinning of W3C
13:30:26 Steven: I think in the end that HTML5 will discover that they need something like namespaces anyway, even if they call it something else
13:30:48 Roland: We need to find a way to make authoring with namespaces easy
13:30:50 The problem with namespaces is the ability to arbitrarily change prefixes throughout a document stream. Overengineered. You just need the ability to establish a prefix binding for scoping.
13:32:05 Roland: Maybe we could move everything into a single namespace
13:32:23 Yam: I don't really see the problem
13:34:09 Roland: Our design should minimise the need for namespaces in authoring
13:35:40 Yam: We need to make XHTML2 real as soon as possible
13:35:53 Steven: There is an open source javascript library for XForms
13:36:14 ... we could expand that to do the rest of XHTML2, so it would work in browsers now
13:38:02 Roland: So what is it that we are doing new?
13:38:29 Steven: Device independence, accessibility, internationalisation
13:38:36 ... authoring
13:39:54 GJR: plus 1 to Roland's "move everything into a single namespace"
13:40:56 Alessio: If you want video or audio, you should use SMIL content for that
13:44:06 Roland: If I want to compose different content from different languages I should be able to.
13:44:25 GJR: SMIL Timesheets - a good model offering user-end control a là stylesheets; role for OBJECT also good idea rather than VIDEO, AUDIO, etc.
13:46:08 Alessio: I strongly believe that we should use CML markup to represent the blocks that are combined in a page
13:47:34 Steven: What you want to do for documents ROland is what modularisation does for languages
13:47:35 Roland: Yes
13:47:48 ... you want to compose documents from document blocks
13:47:56 ... 'islands'
13:48:09 s/RORo/
13:48:15 s/RO/Ro/
13:51:31 Steven: This is why all elements have a src attribute
13:51:58 ... to allow you to import that content, but if the link fails or media type doesn't match, you still have some content
13:52:18