IRC log of eo on 2008-02-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:21:30 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:21:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
13:21:44 [shadi]
zakim, this will be eowg
13:21:44 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:22:04 [shadi]
meeting: EOWG
13:22:14 [shadi]
chair: Andrew, Shadi
13:22:21 [shadi]
13:22:48 [shadi]
agenda+ Mobile Web and Accessibility Overlap Documents
13:23:03 [shadi]
agenda+ Web Accessibility and Ageing Task Force Work Statement
13:23:05 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:23:12 [Zakim]
13:23:17 [Zakim]
13:25:30 [andrew]
andrew has joined #eo
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13:30:49 [achuter]
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13:31:03 [Zakim]
13:31:16 [Zakim]
13:31:35 [achuter]
zakim, ??P4 is me
13:31:35 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
13:31:40 [achuter]
zakim, ??P4 mute me
13:31:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P4 mute me', achuter
13:31:45 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
13:31:45 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
13:32:23 [Zakim]
13:32:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.305.aaaa
13:32:47 [shadi]
regrets: Henny, Liam, Lisa
13:32:52 [andrew]
zakim, who is here?
13:32:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see doyle, Shadi, andrew, Jack, Loughborough, achuter (muted), Sylvie, +1.512.305.aaaa
13:32:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see achuter, andrew, Zakim, RRSAgent, shadi
13:33:00 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is really Sharron
13:33:00 [Zakim]
+Sharron; got it
13:33:47 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
13:33:47 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
13:34:04 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
13:34:04 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
13:34:51 [sharron]
sharron has joined #eo
13:35:52 [shadi]
scribe: Sharron
13:36:27 [sharron]
zakim, this will be eowg
13:36:27 [Zakim]
ok, sharron, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
13:36:52 [sharron]
Meeting: EOWG
13:37:14 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 1
13:37:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Mobile Web and Accessibility Overlap Documents" taken up [from shadi]
13:37:30 [sharron]
Chair: Shadi / Andrew
13:37:55 [achuter]
13:38:04 [andrew]
13:39:23 [sharron]
Alan: We'll work through this document in reverse order...follow the links to the part where the documents are compared
13:39:36 [shadi]
13:40:08 [sharron]
13:40:59 [sharron]
Alan: perhaps the two section headings should have more explanatory text
13:41:22 [sharron]
Andrew: maybe use bold text to help clarify
13:41:35 [sharron]
Alan: but not use section heading?
13:41:49 [sharron]
Andrew: yes
13:42:23 [sharron]
Andrew: email any typos or minor items that you find to the list.
13:43:10 [sharron]
Andrew: any other kinds of comments on this section?
13:43:29 [sharron]
Shadi: Shall we take a minute to let everyone read it?
13:43:37 [sylvie]
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13:44:51 [sharron]
sharron: question the phrase "mobile aware"
13:45:34 [sharron]
alan: yes it may be unclear to those focused on accessibility...may need a link
13:46:25 [sharron]
Action: consider linking text "mobile aware" to explanation and/or change log
13:46:57 [sharron]
William: content can't really be "mobile aware" can it?
13:47:17 [sharron]
Shadi: have seen phrase "mobile friendly"
13:47:40 [sharron]
Andrew: may make more sense to accessibility audience, avoid need for linked explanation
13:48:21 [sharron]
...does the mobile group use the phrase "freindly"
13:48:26 [sharron]
Alan: yes
13:48:46 [sharron]
Andrew: what does the group think of the example provided?
13:48:59 [sharron]
William: makes sense
13:49:14 [sharron]
Alan: perhaps needs more explanation to mobile people
13:49:49 [sharron]
Andrew: should we make WCAG version explicit?
13:50:06 [sharron]
Alan: which paragraph?
13:50:35 [sharron]
...I expected context to explain.
13:50:54 [sharron]
Andrew: I think it needs clarity
13:51:21 [sharron]
Action: Alan to clarify which WCAG version is referenced
13:51:52 [sharron]
Alan: is it clear that there are two lists, the second on with greater detail?
13:51:58 [Jack]
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13:52:01 [sharron]
13:52:40 [sharron]
Alan: perhaps it needs to state that there are two lists and a brief description of each.
13:52:53 [sharron]
Andrew: yes, agreed.
13:52:59 [sharron]
...any other comments?
13:53:37 [sharron]
Andrew: Then let's scroll down to the part where it is mapped to WCAG criteria
13:54:55 [sharron]
Alan: is this an adequate description of how people with disabilities are helped by these techniques?
13:55:52 [sharron]
William: it makes people aware who were unaware that there are disbilities other than blindness. Anything that does that is beneficial.
13:56:14 [sharron]
Andrew: the table with the Access Keys and how it helps PWD...any comments?
13:57:07 [sharron]
Jack: seems like an odd sentence, doesn't quite seem right
13:57:28 [sharron]
Alan: yes it needs to change, others have commented as well.
13:58:15 [sharron]
Action: Alan to change sentence that currently reads "How does it help especially users with disabilities?"
13:59:18 [sharron]
Andrew: in addition to those with motor disabilities, doesn't it also help those with visual disabilities. Access keys are announced by JAWS, etc
14:00:05 [sharron]
Andrew: Shadi, any comment about the term "motor disabilities" and W3C usage?
14:01:08 [sharron]
Shadir: Think it is OK, although we ususally use "physical disability," but really not an issue with W3C usage. The question is accuracy...which has the most specific meaning. This isage does not bother me.
14:01:53 [sharron]
William: should not be "physical" because that is too broad and should alos recognize the benefit to cognitive disability
14:02:04 [sharron]
Andrew: can you elaborate?
14:02:20 [sharron]
William: list of keys can help those with memory loss
14:02:58 [sharron]
...having immediate way to get to access key list makes all the difference in the worl.
14:03:24 [sharron]
Alan: often put access key in the text unlike standard web sites
14:03:46 [sharron]
Andrew: there are a couple of ideas for you, Alan.
14:03:52 [shadi]
14:04:24 [sharron]
Shadi: I looked up motor disabilities and found it is used interchangably
14:05:09 [sharron]
William: we have now mentioned cognitive, visual, motor disabilities. I wonder if a bulleted list may be useful?
14:05:52 [sharron]
Shadi: Maybe before how does it help, include a list of which users are helped?
14:07:13 [sharron]
Shadi: currently there are two sections...I am suggesting a third section titled Who Does it Help, that lists those disabilities that are supported.
14:08:00 [sharron]
...comment on compliance - I beleive this is an advisory technique.
14:09:16 [sharron]
...the question about WCAG compliance is the wrong question because we hardly ever answer it "yes." Maybe it should be phrased as "How does it relate to WCAG."
14:09:53 [sharron]
William: The idea of compliance may be too strict, so I agree it may be the wrong question.
14:10:15 [sharron]
Alan: But people want to know about compliance, they want a yes or no answer.
14:10:39 [sharron] I need to do more, how much more, most are interested in compliance.
14:11:23 [sharron]
william: At CalWAC I was startled by how much accessibility had been accepted for its own sake.
14:12:26 [sharron]
Shadi: Motivations aside, there is not a one-to-one mapping for most of these points, an emphasis may more effectively be placed on best practice.
14:13:28 [sharron]
Alan: Mappings are often not useful since they are so qualified. So what you are suggesting is soemthing more vague, but finally perhaps more useful. I'll confer with the others on the list.
14:13:53 [sharron]
Action: Alan to consider rephrase of "compliance" section
14:14:42 [sharron]
Andrew: Move down a bit further in the document to AutoRefresh section...let people just read that section.
14:15:09 [sharron]
Alan: remember that it is intended mostly for the mobile web groups who are not as familiar with accessibility.
14:15:21 [sharron]
Andrew: comments?
14:16:25 [sharron]
william: It says screenreaders, but after seeing low vision set up and hgh magnification, it may help screenreader, but may be confusing for magnification.
14:16:37 [sharron]
Shadi: ...and cognitive disabilities
14:17:01 [sharron]
Andrew: reading difficulties specifically
14:17:34 [sharron]
William: it the thing that makes me curse the computer when it does it, because it can be a mind boggler
14:18:03 [sharron]
Alan: but with mobile, it is a way to avoid paying for the bandwidth..
14:18:18 [sharron]
Andrew: a few suggestions for expanding the beneficiaries there
14:18:46 [sharron]
Shadi: I am fearing how long the document will become, we have added quite a bit already.
14:19:43 [sharron]
Alan: originally it was one page, now has been split into 5
14:20:41 [sharron]
Andrew: this one is more than 20 odd printed pages.
14:21:06 [sharron]
...comments on compliance section?
14:21:22 [sharron]
Alan: I tried to use words like partially, possibly, etc
14:22:09 [sharron]
William: back to the length, if it is an issue perhaps you can put explanations in a linked page. Or use the expansion and contraction possibility to make it les bulky.
14:22:37 [sharron]
Alan: There are some links to compliance references, to summaries, and to success criteria.
14:23:48 [sharron]
Andrew: it is useful because it allows you to discover which items are related to which success criteria
14:23:58 [sharron]
Alan: saves searching through document
14:25:08 [sharron]
Shadi: think it is fine like this
14:26:15 [sharron]
Andrew: Let's have a look at the next section.
14:27:30 [sharron]
Alan: The idea is to minimize keystrokes
14:27:53 [sharron]
Andrew: Can you use previously or below in referencing the information
14:28:06 [sharron]
William: It is a very significant thing for many people
14:28:20 [sharron]
Andrew: people with limited language for example
14:28:37 [sharron]
william: in fact I am surprised it is not addressed in WCAG
14:29:43 [sharron]
Andrew: On to "background images"
14:30:08 [sharron]
Alan: The idea here is that on mobile devices you can't really turn off background images
14:31:17 [sharron]
William: A comment on aging, Color/contrast is becoming a major problem for me...this issue has similar significance. Do mobile techniques include this consideration?
14:31:39 [sharron]
Andrew: that particular point is addressed later on
14:31:57 [sharron]
Alan: I am not confident about compliance to that issue
14:32:28 [sharron]
William: a background color is a background image if you want to look at it that way
14:33:15 [sharron]
Andrew: any other comments? Alan, are you able to stay?
14:33:31 [sharron]
Alan: yes, another one then
14:34:03 [sharron]
Andrew: Is this the type of feedback you need?
14:34:09 [sharron]
Alan: yes
14:35:15 [sylvie]
Speech fully disabled.
14:37:44 [sharron]
Alan: now discussing "balance" the question of too many links on a page and asking user to navigate through many links to get where they are going
14:38:36 [sharron]
Shadi: WCAG has a different focus and so that is likely why they don't map that discussed somewhere?
14:38:50 [sylvie]
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14:38:50 [sharron]
Alan: it is not testable, for one thing, too vague
14:39:14 [sharron]
Shadi: but beyond testable, it is not rally on its own an accessibility issue
14:39:43 [sharron]
except the "clear and simple" admonition. It affects clarity.
14:40:07 [Zakim]
+ +0137383aabb
14:40:12 [sharron]
Alan: now it is expressed in more quantifiable terms like reading age.
14:40:39 [shadi]
zakim, aabb is really Liam
14:40:39 [Zakim]
+Liam; got it
14:40:40 [sharron]
Alan: We are finding difficulties in creating tests.
14:41:03 [andrew]
liam - see
14:41:09 [LiamMcGee]
LiamMcGee has joined #eo
14:41:20 [andrew]
liam - see
14:41:34 [sharron]
Shadi: I sthere somehwere in the document that explains the different mindset behind the mobile web BP and WCAG?
14:41:50 [sharron]
Alan: not really...that might be a good idea
14:42:07 [sharron]
William: mobile is a defacto assistive technology
14:42:37 [sharron]
Alan: but in another way it is the opposite, because disability is imposed by the device and share barriers
14:43:12 [sharron]
william: the device itself is an assistive technology when looking at the web...almost like a user
14:43:28 [hbj]
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14:43:29 [LiamMcGee]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:43:33 [sharron]
Andrew: you know there is a web there, but can't access it entirely.
14:43:40 [Zakim]
LiamMcGee, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: andrew (9%), Liam (17%)
14:44:46 [sharron]
Shadi: if you follow the theough, you would expect more overlap of the documents MWBP and WCAG. Different perspectives prevent this.
14:44:53 [sharron]
Sharron: agree
14:45:06 [sharron]
William: I agree
14:46:26 [sharron]
Sharron: agree that an explanation of the two perspectives would help clarify all that comes after
14:46:58 [sharron]
Andrew: a useful perspective to add, agreed
14:47:13 [sharron]
Alan: I'll incorporate these comments for next week
14:47:22 [Zakim]
14:48:26 [sharron]
Action: Shadi to summarize different persepctives of WCAG and MWBP
14:48:32 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
14:48:32 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Web Accessibility and Ageing Task Force Work Statement" taken up [from shadi]
14:49:06 [sharron]
Topic: Web Accessibility and Ageing Task Force Work Statement
14:49:48 [sharron]
Shadi: send comments for previous topic to the list so they can be considered in advance of the meeting
14:50:01 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:50:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Web Accessibility and Ageing Task Force Work Statement" taken up [from shadi]
14:50:32 [shadi]
14:52:03 [shadi]
14:52:04 [sharron]
Shadi: Related to WAI-Age project to harmonize efforts going forward. To learn more to improve our own work. Before we look at the task force statement, will ask Andrew, who is the lead on the WAI-AGE project to introduce it.
14:54:58 [shadi]
[Andrew gives a more elaborated introduction to the WAI-AGE Project, and to some of its work]
14:55:47 [sharron]
Andrew: Project is funded by European Commission, as people age they tend to acquire disabilities. Population is aging with baby boomers moving into retirement. Many countries addressing these issues of aging population. We want to consider the research, the issues of agin as it relates to our work and bring various working groups into harmony. Another aspect is how to integrate the WAI-AGE work into EOWG materials. Focus has previously been on people who were b
14:56:50 [sharron]
William: slightly different focus in that notion of retirement is changing
14:57:20 [sharron]
...instead of fishing, we see someone who maintains connection to web and doing work rather than quitting
14:58:04 [sharron]
...finding this very widespread, the notion that people can continue to participate and contribute and inaccessibility of the web is significant
14:59:17 [sharron]
Jack: Many companies are looking at population demographics and needs of workers and that significant numbers are retiring. Condering options to maintain continuity, involving remote work, part time, and distance employment.
14:59:51 [sharron]
Doyle: Working remotely is a growing option and the likely impact of that the mobile web will become more of an important element of that
15:00:18 [sharron]
Shadi: agreed
15:00:36 [shadi]
15:00:42 [sharron]
...if no more questions about the overall project foucs, let's look at the work statement
15:01:23 [sharron]
15:02:34 [andrew]
shadi slips and tell everyone twice a week teleconferences ;)
15:02:34 [sharron]
Shadi: In the future, we may bring some of the Task Force work to EO for comment. Length of project is expected to extend for 2 or 2 1/2 years and will overlap soemwhat with EO
15:02:51 [sharron]
...has everyone read the documents?
15:02:55 [sharron]
all: yes, OK
15:03:23 [sharron]
Shadi: first the scope of the Task Force, how it relates to EO and get EO approval of the approach.
15:03:38 [sharron]
...let's go through the objectives, any comments or thoughts on this?
15:04:07 [sharron]
Jack: elaborate, please on advising..what are you describing
15:04:54 [sharron]
Shadi: first phase is literature review which Andrew is working fiercly on. What research has been done on designing for aging people
15:05:07 [sharron]
...then to map these back to guidelines and identify gaps
15:05:58 [sharron]
...hope to have a preliminary map for the EO group and solicit comment about the search itself, if we have missed sources, if we need to widen focus, etc
15:06:37 [sharron]
Andrew: while we are trying to be thorough, we welcome your resources and comments on emphasis.
15:06:48 [sharron]
Shadi: Jack, does that answer your questions?
15:07:41 [sharron]
Jack: It sounds like you are producing two things: a draft summarizes what is out there, a solicittin to EO to fill in gaps.
15:08:07 [sharron]
Shadi: Maybe more to help us find gaps, not necessarily to fill in those gaps.
15:09:18 [sharron]
...the role of the Task Force is much more advisory, most of work is to review and provide input on how we can establish dialogue, build networks
15:09:33 [sharron]
William: how the input is incorporated into work of task force
15:10:04 [sharron]
Andrew: this is more of a reference group than what has traditionally been a task force
15:10:45 [sharron]
Shadi: let's consider approach section...basically an elaboration of how we anticipate to approach the acheivment of the objectives
15:11:15 [sharron]
15:12:07 [sharron]
Shadi: Communication is next section, fairly boilerplate about how we will meet and teleconference, etc
15:12:29 [sharron]
...often as part of EO meetings, links to past minutes
15:13:06 [sharron]
...estimate about 2-4 hours per week, don't anticipate high traffic on the list.
15:13:46 [sharron]
...if interested in this task force, please contact Andrew. Must be member of EO working group to participate.
15:14:24 [sharron] far Helle, William, Judy, Shadi, Andrew
15:14:31 [sharron]
William: sounds like a dream team
15:15:10 [sharron]
Shadi: if no furhter comments or questions, we can call it a meeting.
15:15:21 [sharron]
Liam: Sounds good, let's get going
15:15:35 [sharron]
Doyle: Congratualtions Andrew
15:16:01 [LiamMcGee]
Congrats Andrew
15:16:04 [sharron]
Shadi: My colleagues Shawn and Judy agree we are delighted to have Andrew on board
15:16:37 [sharron] week will talk about Mobile Web work and perhaps a first draft of the Task Force.
15:17:22 [Zakim]
15:17:46 [Zakim]
15:17:47 [Zakim]
15:17:47 [Zakim]
15:17:48 [sharron]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sharron
15:17:50 [Zakim]
15:18:21 [Zakim]
15:21:25 [Zakim]
15:21:26 [Zakim]
15:21:28 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:21:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were doyle, Shadi, andrew, Jack, Loughborough, achuter, Sylvie, +1.512.305.aaaa, Sharron, +0137383aabb, Liam
15:21:36 [shadi]
zakim, bye
15:21:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #eo
15:21:42 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:21:46 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:21:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shadi
15:21:48 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:21:54 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in :
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: consider linking text "mobile aware" to explanation and/or change log [1]
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to clarify which WCAG version is referenced [2]
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to change sentence that currently reads "How does it help especially users with disabilities?" [3]
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to consider rephrase of "compliance" section [4]
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi to summarize different persepctives of WCAG and MWBP [5]
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in