14:55:13 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 14:55:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/14-bpwg-irc 14:55:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:55:17 Zakim, this will be BPWG 14:55:17 ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:18 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 14:55:18 Date: 14 February 2008 14:55:23 chair: Jo 14:56:29 miguel has joined #bpwg 14:56:48 MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started 14:56:55 +Shahriar 14:57:53 yeliz has joined #bpwg 14:58:08 abel has joined #bpwg 14:58:23 +Jason 14:58:25 + +91.44.42.22.aaaa 14:58:41 MartinJ has joined #bpwg 14:58:42 regrets: Dom, Francois, Nacho, Phil, Chaals, DKA, Heiko, Kemp, Eman, Tony_Johansson, David_Rooks, SeanP 14:59:09 zakim, dial matt-voip 14:59:09 ok, matt; the call is being made 14:59:10 +Matt 14:59:26 +MartinJ 14:59:53 +berrueta 15:00:12 zakim, berrueta is me 15:00:12 +miguel; got it 15:00:36 edm has joined #bpwg 15:00:37 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0034.html 15:00:45 +Ed_Mitukiewicz 15:00:48 zakim, code? 15:00:48 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 15:01:11 +Bryan_Sullivan 15:01:26 + +0793201aabb 15:01:30 Bryan has joined #bpwg 15:01:49 rob has joined #bpwg 15:01:51 +??P21 15:02:03 zakim, who is here? 15:02:06 On the phone I see Shahriar, Jason, +91.44.42.22.aaaa, Matt, MartinJ, miguel, Ed_Mitukiewicz, Bryan_Sullivan, +0793201aabb, ??P21 15:02:17 - +0793201aabb 15:02:22 zakim, abel is with me 15:02:23 On IRC I see rob, Bryan, edm, MartinJ, abel, yeliz, miguel, RRSAgent, jo, matt, Zakim, trackbot-ng, dom 15:02:30 AlanT has joined #bpwg 15:02:31 +abel; got it 15:02:43 +jo 15:03:07 zakim, aaa is murari 15:03:17 sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 15:03:34 zakim, aaaa is murari 15:03:40 srowen has joined #bpwg 15:03:49 +murari; got it 15:03:57 skarim has joined #bpwg 15:04:23 zakim, who is here? 15:04:23 On the phone I see Shahriar, Jason, murari, Matt, MartinJ, miguel, Ed_Mitukiewicz, Bryan_Sullivan, ??P21, jo 15:04:26 miguel has miguel, abel 15:04:27 On IRC I see skarim, srowen, AlanT, rob, Bryan, edm, MartinJ, abel, yeliz, miguel, RRSAgent, jo, matt, Zakim, trackbot-ng, dom 15:04:55 -??P21 15:05:22 scribe: edm 15:05:32 scribenick: edm 15:05:33 +??P31 15:05:50 zakim, ??P31 is Yeliz 15:05:50 +Yeliz; got it 15:06:07 agenda: f2f update 15:06:15 Topic: Korea F2F 15:06:55 +Sean_Owen 15:06:55 jo: questionnaire is now open to confirm/unconform attendance of the Seoul f2f 15:06:56 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/seoulf2f/ Seoul Questionnaire 15:07:14 s/unconform/unconfirm/ 15:07:33 jo: completing the questionnaire would be mandatory 15:07:53 jo: please complete within a week.... 15:08:24 jo: DanA working on the agenda for the Mobile Wednesday event in Seoul 15:08:32 +Kai_Dietrich 15:08:38 Topic: June f2f 15:08:45 Topic: F2F Zaragoza 15:09:02 + +0207287aacc 15:09:33 achuter has joined #bpwg 15:09:38 jo: need to confirm the Zaragoza location today - f2f during the week of June 9 15:09:43 zakim, aacc is rob 15:09:43 +rob; got it 15:09:58 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: JUne F2F to be held week of 9th June in Zaragoza 15:10:11 +??P35 15:10:13 -1 15:10:13 +1 15:10:22 zakim, ??P35 is me 15:10:22 +achuter; got it 15:10:26 -1 15:10:29 zakim, mute me 15:10:29 achuter should now be muted 15:11:06 This F2F, as with the one in March is in conflict with Voice Browser WG 15:11:09 jo: would like to request posting a questionnaire for the June f2f 15:11:49 jo: moving the date would require moving to a different location 15:11:51 q+ 15:11:51 +1 15:11:58 zakim, unmute me 15:11:58 achuter should no longer be muted 15:12:00 +1 15:12:19 zakim, who is making noise? 15:12:27 zakim, mute me 15:12:28 ack br 15:12:29 achuter should now be muted 15:12:31 matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shahriar (13%), Bryan_Sullivan (7%), jo (53%), Sean_Owen (4%), achuter (29%) 15:14:05 q+ 15:14:11 jo: let's defer making a decision until it is clear if the meeting could be rescheduled yet remain in Zaragoza 15:14:12 q- 15:14:52 ACTION: matt to post a questionnaire re June f2f by Feb.21 15:14:52 Created ACTION-657 - Post a questionnaire re June f2f by Feb.21 [on Matt Womer - due 2008-02-21]. 15:15:38 Topic: reports from Task Forces 15:16:04 jo: nothing new to report re Content TF - no call this week 15:16:36 srowen: beta release of reference checker is now complete 15:17:01 i/srowen/Topic: Checker Task FOrce 15:17:33 francois has joined #bpwg 15:17:40 srowen: should be a near final version, but May release expected after remaining bugs are weeded out 15:17:47 zakim, mute me 15:17:47 achuter was already muted, achuter 15:17:51 mute yeliz 15:17:57 zakim, mute yeliz 15:17:57 Yeliz should now be muted 15:18:06 Topic: MobileOk Pro 15:18:14 zakim, who is making noise? 15:18:25 matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shahriar (22%), Kai_Dietrich (98%) 15:18:32 zakim, mute shahriar 15:18:32 Shahriar should now be muted 15:18:37 zakim, unmute shahriar 15:18:39 Shahriar should no longer be muted 15:18:45 Kai: had a f2f last week in London - produced a revised charter and vreated first draft of MobileOk Pro tests 15:18:52 zakim, who is making noise? 15:19:03 matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shahriar (35%), jo (61%), Kai_Dietrich (17%) 15:19:05 Upps, thanks for pointing that out, Matt 15:19:23 Kai: draft MobileOk Pro test document to be available within a couple of weeks 15:19:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:19:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/14-bpwg-minutes.html matt 15:19:37 s/vreated/created/ 15:19:43 ACTION-639? 15:19:43 ACTION-639 -- Kai Scheppe to create a more elaborate charter with times, deliverables -- due 2008-02-12 -- OPEN 15:19:43 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/639 15:20:22 zakim, mute shahriar temporarily 15:20:22 Shahriar should now be muted 15:20:37 Shahriar should now be unmuted again 15:20:47 zakim, who is making noise? 15:20:50 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/0027.html Proposed mobileOK Pro Charter 15:20:58 matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shahriar (29%), jo (45%), Sean_Owen (24%) 15:21:06 zakim, mute sean_owen temporarily 15:21:06 Sean_Owen should now be muted 15:21:08 zakim, mute me 15:21:08 sorry, srowen, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:21:18 (sorry, construction going on outside the window) 15:21:22 Sean_Owen should now be unmuted again 15:21:24 zakim, mute sean_owen 15:21:24 Sean_Owen should now be muted 15:21:46 Kai has joined #bpwg 15:21:53 rrsagent, make minutes public 15:21:53 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', matt. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:22:00 rrsagent, make logs public 15:22:08 s/Upps, thanks for pointing that out, Matt// 15:22:27 s/mute yeliz// 15:22:34 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Accept mobileOK Pro Charter as suggested by Kai under ACTION-639 modified to make clear ref black box testing 15:23:23 RESOLUTION: Accept mobileOK Pro Charter as suggested by Kai under ACTION-639 modified to make clear ref black box testing 15:23:26 rrsagent, make logs public 15:23:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:23:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/14-bpwg-minutes.html matt 15:24:29 ACTION: Kai to amend charter with black box part 15:24:29 Created ACTION-658 - Amend charter with black box part [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-21]. 15:24:30 jo: suggests creation of a dedicated page for MobileOk Pro TF 15:24:32 ACTION: Scheppe to sort out administrative aspects of TF like a Web page 15:24:32 Created ACTION-659 - Sort out administrative aspects of TF like a Web page [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-21]. 15:25:01 close ACTION-639 15:25:01 ACTION-639 Create a more elaborate charter with times, deliverables closed 15:25:13 close ACTION-612 15:25:13 ACTION-612 Write a charter for mobileOK Pro TF by January closed 15:25:25 Kai: most of the MobileOk Pro related admin issues have been dealt with 15:25:40 close ACTION-636 15:25:40 ACTION-636 Put together a reasonble time table for completion of mobileOK Pro by the end of BPWG closed 15:25:54 close ACTION-648 15:25:54 ACTION-648 Update the charter document based on output of F2F closed 15:26:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:26:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/14-bpwg-minutes.html matt 15:26:15 ACTION-647? 15:26:15 ACTION-647 -- Kai Scheppe to create a response to the concerns of the WG -- due 2008-02-13 -- OPEN 15:26:15 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/647 15:26:27 cloase ACTION-647 15:26:34 i/RESOLUTION: Accept mobileOK /Scribe: Jo/ 15:26:44 close ACTION-647 15:26:44 ACTION-647 Create a response to the concerns of the WG closed 15:26:59 i/ACTION: Kai to amend/Scribe: edm/ 15:27:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:27:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/14-bpwg-minutes.html matt 15:27:46 ACTION-643? 15:27:47 ACTION-643 -- Kai Scheppe to post the test format to the list -- due 2008-02-12 -- OPEN 15:27:47 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/643 15:28:01 close ACTION-643 15:28:01 ACTION-643 Post the test format to the list closed 15:28:33 close ISSUE-236 15:28:52 s/close ISSUE-236// 15:29:10 Kai: Issue-236 requires a tool that emulates the DDC for testing 15:29:28 Topic: WCAG2.0 15:29:31 zakim, unmute me 15:29:31 achuter should no longer be muted 15:30:08 zakim, unmute yeliz 15:30:08 Yeliz should no longer be muted 15:30:10 achuter: not much progress over the last week or two - same darft still in place 15:30:26 s/darft/draft/ 15:30:31 zakim, mute me 15:30:31 achuter should now be muted 15:31:05 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/WD-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#MEASURES Resume from MEASURES 15:31:11 Yeliz: working now on V1 comparison document ... 15:32:02 Yeliz: not clear when this will be completed - should have an idea next week 15:32:18 zakim, unmute me 15:32:18 achuter should no longer be muted 15:32:24 zakim, mute yeliz 15:32:24 Yeliz should now be muted 15:33:56 zakim, mute me 15:33:56 achuter should now be muted 15:34:20 zakim, unmute me 15:34:20 achuter should no longer be muted 15:34:26 Achuter: there are WCAG2.0 provisions for using relative units of measure 15:34:53 zakim, mute me 15:34:53 achuter should now be muted 15:35:50 zakim, unmute me 15:35:50 achuter should no longer be muted 15:35:54 zakim, mute me 15:35:54 achuter should now be muted 15:36:42 zakim, unmute me 15:36:42 achuter should no longer be muted 15:37:15 zakim, mute me 15:37:15 achuter should now be muted 15:38:05 abel_ has joined #bpwg 15:38:14 achuter: Mininimal Keystrokes and NAVbar BP points are not mentioned in WCAG2.0 as they are difficult to test... 15:38:24 zakim, unmute me 15:38:24 achuter should no longer be muted 15:38:33 q+ 15:38:38 zakim, mute me 15:38:38 achuter should now be muted 15:38:47 ack bry 15:39:02 achuter: content w/o frames is usually easier to use by anybody ... 15:39:33 -achuter 15:39:37 jo: break from WCAG for now - over to Bryan re BP2 15:39:50 Topic: BP" 15:40:00 q+ 15:40:01 s/BP"/BP-2 15:40:22 Bryan: still collecting comments on the existing BP-2 draft... 15:40:26 zakim, unmute Sean_Owen 15:40:26 Sean_Owen should no longer be muted 15:40:49 Bryan: perhaps bringing up specific BP-2 topics on the public list may help ... 15:40:59 ack se 15:41:03 ack sro 15:41:12 srowen: just sent a message to the list on that 15:41:17 +[IPcaller] 15:41:25 ACTION: Bryan to raise specific points of discussion on Public List 15:41:25 Created ACTION-660 - Raise specific points of discussion on Public List [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-02-21]. 15:41:36 zakim, +[IPcaller] is me 15:41:36 sorry, achuter, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 15:41:44 Sean message is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/0059.html 15:41:44 zakim, +IPcaller is me 15:41:44 sorry, achuter, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller' 15:41:57 zakim, IPCaller is achuter 15:41:57 +achuter; got it 15:42:40 srowen: we should clarify ADC ... 15:43:24 q? 15:43:30 Bryan: ADC is a broader scope question - need to be resolved by the group... 15:43:56 q+ 15:44:12 ack kai 15:44:29 srowen: concerned that not addressing the ADC assumptions could make specifcying BPs quite difficult 15:45:19 jo: perhaps we should raise the ADC issue and have another discussion on the public list 15:45:52 zakim, mute Sean_Owen 15:45:52 Sean_Owen should now be muted 15:46:26 Kai: technical discussion should be on a public list ... 15:46:43 Bryan: but should the discussion of scope be on the public list? 15:47:07 + 1 to discussing on the public list 15:47:10 Jo: yes - unless there are objections... 15:47:17 -Bryan_Sullivan 15:47:33 jo: back to review Alan's doc ... 15:47:35 zakim, unmute me 15:47:35 achuter should no longer be muted 15:47:55 Topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/WD-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#MEASURES 15:48:09 Topic: Accessibility Doc (bis) 15:48:13 NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES 15:48:15 Resuming from http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/WD-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES 15:49:45 achuter: there are non-text elements other than images... 15:51:43 jo: do not rely on the longdesc attribute of the img element which is often not supported 15:52:00 q+ 15:52:14 ack k 15:52:22 zakim, unmute me 15:52:22 achuter should no longer be muted 15:53:29 achuter: should clarify that plug-ins may interfere with assistive technology - or be unavailable in a mobile environment 15:55:33 achuter: page titles are quite important in a disability context - using short titles (as per BP) may not be helpful 15:55:53 q+ 15:56:24 zakim, unmute yeliz 15:56:24 Yeliz should no longer be muted 15:56:35 ack y 15:57:07 Yeliz: it is important to have descriptive titles - size matters less... 15:57:29 -Shahriar 15:57:38 q+ 15:57:43 zakim, mute yeliz 15:57:51 jo: ... albeit having short titles makes sense in a mobile context 15:58:03 Yeliz should now be muted 15:58:14 ack kai 15:59:19 kai: spelling out the issues does not necessarily help to resolve conflicting requirements (WCAG vs. mobile BP) 15:59:41 zakim, unmute yeliz 15:59:41 Yeliz should no longer be muted 16:01:15 yes 16:01:30 achuter: but there are also some WCAG - mobile BP synergies - e.g., having the most differentating info first does help... 16:01:50 zakim, mute yeliz 16:01:50 Yeliz should now be muted 16:02:02 [resume doc review at POP_UPs next time] 16:02:13 Topic: issues and actions 16:02:38 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/pendingreview Pending Review 16:03:26 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/408 16:04:25 close ACTION-408 16:04:26 ACTION-408 Propose a rewording of the relevant section re: Accept header closed 16:04:50 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/488 16:05:47 close ACTION-488 16:05:47 ACTION-488 Think about making scribing less onerous to those who are new to it and those whose first language is not English closed 16:06:15 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/529 16:07:05 -achuter 16:07:06 zakim, dial matt-voip 16:07:06 ok, matt; the call is being made 16:07:07 +Matt.a 16:07:13 zakim, drop matt.a 16:07:13 Matt.a is being disconnected 16:07:14 -Matt.a 16:07:33 zakim, drop matt 16:07:33 Matt is being disconnected 16:07:34 -Matt 16:07:37 zakim, dial matt-voip 16:07:37 ok, matt; the call is being made 16:07:39 +Matt 16:08:10 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/530 16:08:27 leave ACTION-529 open pending further efforts by Ed 16:09:01 zakim, drop matt 16:09:01 Matt is being disconnected 16:09:02 -Matt 16:09:07 zakim, dial matt-voip 16:09:07 ok, matt; the call is being made 16:09:09 +Matt 16:09:26 zakim, drop matt 16:09:26 Matt is being disconnected 16:09:27 -Matt 16:09:31 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/541 16:09:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/541 16:09:43 zakim, dial matt-voip 16:09:43 ok, matt; the call is being made 16:09:45 +Matt 16:10:21 (this sounds defunct -- close it and let's move along) 16:11:39 jo: seems to be about mobileOk usage guidelines ... 16:11:57 zakim, unmute Sean_Owen 16:11:57 Sean_Owen should no longer be muted 16:12:10 close ACTION-545 16:12:10 ACTION-545 Add about-me in moki closed 16:12:15 close ACTION-548 16:12:15 ACTION-548 Set up simple web interface on top of Java library for Alpha release closed 16:12:42 close ACTION-588 16:12:42 ACTION-588 With Dan to raise this document at next HCG meeting informing them of our intentions and soliciting input closed 16:13:02 zakim, dial matt-voip 16:13:02 ok, matt; the call is being made 16:13:03 +Matt.a 16:13:10 zakim, drop Matt 16:13:10 Matt is being disconnected 16:13:12 jo: still working on http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/614 16:13:12 -Matt 16:13:16 skarim has left #bpwg 16:13:25 close ACTION-615 16:13:25 ACTION-615 produce new draft closed 16:13:37 srowen_ has joined #bpwg 16:13:41 close ACTION-620 16:13:41 ACTION-620 Raise issue of co-editorship vacancy closed 16:14:21 zakim, drop matt 16:14:21 Matt.a is being disconnected 16:14:25 -Matt.a 16:14:29 yes, prefer to take the time to finish off old actions 16:14:35 anything < 2008 16:14:39 Topic: OPen Actions 16:14:44 zakim, dial matt-voip 16:14:44 ok, matt; the call is being made 16:14:46 +Matt 16:14:49 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/open 16:14:59 zakim, mute me 16:14:59 Matt should now be muted 16:15:35 edm promises to complete ACTION-530... soon... 16:15:38 593 is defunct, it seems 16:16:30 close ACTION-593 16:16:30 ACTION-593 Write a summary of preliminary work to be done for this working group to focus on Best Practices for Web applications closed 16:17:04 close ACTION-609 16:17:04 ACTION-609 Get the work on the mobileOK test suite started closed 16:17:56 close ACTION-616 16:17:56 ACTION-616 Circulate his thoughts on BP2 so that we set up an agenda closed 16:17:56 jo: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/613 still open .. 16:18:09 zakim, who is making noise? 16:18:20 matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: murari (20%), jo (32%) 16:18:24 close ACTION-617 16:18:27 ACTION-617 Plan for a call to review document and coordinate with OEWG on it. closed 16:19:48 edm: needs to work on http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/618 16:20:41 close ACTION-622 16:20:41 ACTION-622 Add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines closed 16:20:55 close ACTION-623 16:20:55 ACTION-623 Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 closed 16:21:15 close ACTION-627 16:21:15 ACTION-627 Make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here closed 16:22:06 close ACTION-635 16:22:06 ACTION-635 Summarize all the points that needs answers from mobileOK Pro TF closed 16:23:30 Topic: open issues 16:23:31 Topic: Open Issues 16:23:36 +Matt.a 16:23:44 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/open 16:23:50 zakim, drop Matt 16:23:50