17:59:03 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:59:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/13-owl-irc 17:59:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:59:05 Zakim has joined #owl 17:59:07 Zakim, this will be OWLWG 17:59:07 ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago 17:59:08 Meeting: OWL Working Group Teleconference 17:59:08 Date: 13 February 2008 18:00:00 I'm in 18:00:04 crackling noises 18:00:09 ivan has joined #owl 18:00:15 don't know. 18:00:21 hendler has joined #owl 18:00:30 zakim, mute me 18:00:30 sorry, m_schnei, I don't know what conference this is 18:00:31 fireworks - chinese new years celebrations 18:00:34 jeremy has joined #owl 18:00:50 This sounds bad! 18:00:53 zakim, this is owl 18:00:53 ok, sandro; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM 18:01:02 zakim, mute me 18:01:02 sorry, alanr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 18:01:05 zakim, who is talking? 18:01:11 zakim, who is here? 18:01:11 On the phone I see jar, msmith, Sandro (muted), ??P9, ??P15, IanH, jhendler 18:01:12 bcuencag has joined #owl 18:01:13 Zhe has joined #owl 18:01:14 On IRC I see jeremy, hendler, ivan, Zakim, RRSAgent, bmotik, m_schnei, Rinke, alanr, msmith, IanH, Carsten, bijan, uli, MartinD, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng 18:01:16 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jar (44%), ??P15 (72%), jhendler (21%) 18:01:18 zakim, who is here 18:01:18 hendler, you need to end that query with '?' 18:01:20 zakim, who is here? 18:01:20 On the phone I see jar, msmith, Sandro (muted), ??P9, ??P15, IanH, jhendler 18:01:23 zakim, who is here? 18:01:24 I did not get a code by zakim 18:01:25 On IRC I see Zhe, bcuencag, jeremy, hendler, ivan, Zakim, RRSAgent, bmotik, m_schnei, Rinke, alanr, msmith, IanH, Carsten, bijan, uli, MartinD, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng 18:01:30 On the phone I see jar, msmith, Sandro (muted), ??P9, ??P15, IanH, jhendler 18:01:30 zakim, dial ivan-voip 18:01:32 On IRC I see Zhe, bcuencag, jeremy, hendler, ivan, Zakim, RRSAgent, bmotik, m_schnei, Rinke, alanr, msmith, IanH, Carsten, bijan, uli, MartinD, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng 18:01:39 +Rinke 18:01:41 + +7.955.aaaa 18:01:43 ok, ivan; the call is being made 18:01:45 +Ivan 18:01:49 Zakim, aaaa is me 18:01:51 zakim, drop ??P15 18:01:52 (I have muted so it isn't me) 18:01:55 +??P8 18:01:57 +jeremy; got it 18:01:59 ??P15 is being disconnected 18:02:00 q- 18:02:01 -??P15 18:02:07 zakim, ??P8 is me 18:02:07 zakim, ??P15 is me 18:02:07 much better -- thanks! 18:02:08 q? 18:02:09 q- 18:02:13 +bijan; got it 18:02:15 sorry, m_schnei, I do not recognize a party named '??P15' 18:02:17 q- jeremy 18:02:21 zakim, jar is alanr 18:02:22 zakim, mute me 18:02:23 So, whoever got dropped there -- you were the noise source. 18:02:24 q? 18:02:25 +Zhe 18:02:27 +alanr; got it 18:02:31 bijan should now be muted 18:02:32 q- ??P15 18:02:35 q- jar 18:02:41 +??P11 18:02:52 Achille has joined #owl 18:02:54 q? 18:02:56 +MartinD 18:02:59 zakim, ??P15 is me 18:03:00 sorry, m_schnei, I do not recognize a party named '??P15' 18:03:01 Zakim, ??P11 is me 18:03:01 +bcuencag; got it 18:03:12 zakim, mute me 18:03:12 MartinD should now be muted 18:03:13 yes, followed by # 18:03:23 pfps has joined #owl 18:03:25 + +1.781.271.aabb 18:03:36 zakim, who is here? 18:03:36 On the phone I see alanr, msmith, Sandro, ??P9, IanH, jhendler, Rinke, jeremy (muted), Ivan, bijan (muted), Zhe, bcuencag, MartinD (muted), +1.781.271.aabb 18:03:40 On IRC I see pfps, Achille, Zhe, bcuencag, jeremy, hendler, ivan, Zakim, RRSAgent, bmotik, m_schnei, Rinke, alanr, msmith, IanH, Carsten, bijan, uli, MartinD, sandro, ewallace, 18:03:43 ... trackbot-ng 18:03:44 +[IBM] 18:03:45 +Carsten 18:03:46 pfps_ has joined #owl 18:03:47 zakim, ??P9 is me 18:03:47 +m_schnei; got it 18:03:52 Zakim, IBM is Achille 18:03:52 +Achille; got it 18:03:59 +pfps 18:03:59 do we have a scribe? 18:04:03 Joanne? 18:04:07 zakim, mute me 18:04:07 Carsten should now be muted 18:04:15 zakim, mute me 18:04:15 m_schnei should now be muted 18:04:16 +??P24 18:04:23 Zakim, ??p24 is me 18:04:23 +bmotik; got it 18:04:35 keep trying, Uli! :-) 18:05:07 Zakim, mute me 18:05:07 bmotik should now be muted 18:05:14 +??P28 18:05:29 zakim, ??P28 is me 18:05:29 +uli; got it 18:05:45 zakim, mute me 18:05:45 uli should now be muted 18:07:01 zakim, pfps_ is pfps 18:07:01 sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'pfps_' 18:07:06 scribenick: uli 18:07:15 me is ready 18:07:18 joanne - you need to use port 6665 got MIT - so you need to do /join #owl:6665 18:07:19 Zakim, mute me 18:07:19 bcuencag should now be muted 18:07:26 chair: Ian Horrocks 18:07:45 no agenda amendments 18:07:55 not really, but I'm not going to object 18:08:07 don't think anything has changed in the minutes 18:08:19 Ian: can we accept previous minutes? 18:08:21 zakim, unmute me 18:08:21 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:08:28 Proposal: accept previous previous minutes 18:08:41 actually, the minutes are just fixed 18:08:55 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.01.30/Minutes 18:09:09 +1 18:09:10 +1 18:09:18 ok 18:09:19 +1 to accept, they improved much in the interim week 18:09:20 +1 18:09:20 +1 18:09:24 +1 18:09:30 Resolved: accept minutes of http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.01.30/Minutes 18:09:40 for previous minutes (Feb 6), new actions were not linked to tracker 18:09:48 -0 18:09:52 RRSAgent, pointer? 18:09:52 See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/13-owl-irc#T18-09-52 18:10:04 +Evan_Wallace 18:10:21 huh? my action was set up OK 18:10:30 some links to issues are missing 18:10:37 Propose: accept minutes of http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.06/Minutes 18:10:48 not a big deal, but we rejected minutes in the past on this ground 18:10:48 30 Jan minutes were fixed up in the last hour or so 18:10:59 +1 18:11:04 +1 18:11:06 (this is about feb 6 right?) 18:11:08 +1 18:11:10 +1 to close with carsten adding links 18:11:12 +1 18:11:14 +1 18:11:20 +1 (permanent plus one to accepting all minutes at any time) 18:11:21 +1 to trusting Carsten 18:11:22 sure 18:11:25 0 18:11:50 Resolved: accept minutes of http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.06/Minutes 18:11:55 RRSAgent, pointer? 18:11:55 See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/13-owl-irc#T18-11-55 18:12:03 jluciano has joined #owl 18:12:11 F2F page is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2 18:12:21 Agenda: Washington F2F 18:12:41 Agenda amendment: Next monday meeting (1.5 weeks) should it be UFDTF or Imports? 18:12:46 pfps: F2F2 is right after OWLEd, registration is open 18:12:48 OWLED registration at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008dc/registration.html 18:13:08 pfps: OWLEd papers are due this friday 18:13:38 q+ 18:13:38 +1 observers to be allowed 18:13:44 Rinke, did you see my e-mail about the wiki last night? 18:13:51 Ian: so far, nobody has objected to observers, provided they stick to conditions in email 18:13:52 q? 18:14:05 ++1 to letting observers 18:14:12 Rinke, what is your wiki login? 18:14:14 ewallace: are there restrictions on the number of observers? 18:14:54 ewallace is Evan 18:15:04 q? 18:15:10 ack ewallace 18:15:19 pfps: reports that Clark&Parsia will sponsor dinner, NIST will possibly sponsor the room, but we still need fees 18:15:31 q+ 18:15:36 +1 to chairs having to give permission to observers (so something is in the log) 18:16:13 Rinke, this is an odd question, but are you sure you're logged in? Sometimes the wiki logs people out. 18:16:17 q+ 18:16:21 jluciano: wonders whether her organisation can sponsor (?) 18:16:38 q? 18:17:04 Evan: has never been to a W3C F2F with fees 18:17:25 Sandro: agrees that fees are very rare 18:17:52 zakim, unmute me 18:17:52 bijan should no longer be muted 18:18:10 pfps: suggests to drop lunches which will then reduce fees to 150dollars 18:18:12 I will have to see if my organization will let us pay a fee for this. 18:18:21 breaks,even without food.... 18:18:30 q? 18:18:35 Evan didn't say anything about fees 18:18:38 q? 18:18:59 Bijan: F2F registration page is closed 18:19:02 ack bijan 18:19:05 q? 18:19:07 i believe the comment ascribed to evan was made by jim 18:19:22 q? 18:19:22 Evan, I have difficulties hearing who is who... 18:19:42 zakim, mute me 18:19:42 bijan should now be muted 18:19:52 alanr: suggests to bring own foot/take food payment out of general bill 18:19:58 the Wiki page does not seem to have a link to registration - am I missing something? 18:20:23 sandro: easy food is more valuable due to time saving 18:20:38 pfps: please sign up 18:20:46 sign up at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2_People 18:20:59 Agenda: Action items status 18:21:11 Action 78: 18:21:33 Ian: action 78 seems to be done 18:21:44 Ian: action 80 seems to be done 18:21:52 Ian: action 81 seems to be done 18:22:15 Ian: action 82 seems to be done 18:22:32 Ian: action 83 seems to be done 18:22:51 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.13/Agenda 18:23:02 MartinD has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.13/Agenda 18:23:12 bijan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.13/Agenda 18:23:32 Ian: action 84 seems to be done 18:23:46 bijan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.02.13/Agenda 18:23:47 Topic: Due and overdue Actions 18:24:07 bijan2 has joined #owl 18:24:22 alanr: regarding action 43 I will ...? 18:24:56 +1 18:25:14 43 stays open, tracking Sandro. 62 closed. 18:25:17 q? 18:25:20 I can add stuff 18:25:23 sandro: in 2-3 weeks, some code will be cleaned up, and people who want to put up test cases now, please talk to me 18:25:26 ack alanr 18:25:28 ack alanr 18:25:41 Ian: action 72 18:25:55 alanr: will be continued, will change deadline 18:26:09 Topic: Proposals to Resolve Issues (15 mins) 18:26:19 q? 18:26:28 +1 18:26:28 q+ 18:26:33 Topic: Issue 3 18:26:36 q- 18:26:42 q? 18:27:34 q+ 18:27:38 Zakim, unmute me 18:27:38 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:27:38 Ian: the proposal is to keep the status quo from OWL 1.0 18:27:40 q? 18:27:46 ack bmotik 18:27:47 q+ 18:28:02 q+ to agree to counterproposal, and thus postpone 18:28:12 bmotik: there is a counterproposal and we should postpone the discussion to next week 18:28:20 q? 18:28:45 bmotik: use blank nodes in OWL11, so to be more compatible with RDF, use SPARQL-like semantics 18:29:00 +1 to boris 18:29:01 pfps: agrees with Boris to postpone to next week 18:29:12 pfps, you wanted to agree to counterproposal, and thus postpone 18:29:18 q+ 18:29:18 Topic: Issue 69 18:29:31 s/69/91 18:29:35 Ian: Boris has added ontology annotations, send an email, ... 18:29:40 s/send/sent 18:29:54 q? 18:29:54 q? 18:30:23 Ian: proposes to close Issue ?? 18:30:29 q+ 18:30:48 q- alanr 18:30:49 alanr: sees open questions/possible issues regarding ?? 18:30:58 q? 18:31:02 ack bmotik 18:31:05 q? 18:31:26 q+ 18:31:34 s/??/91 18:31:34 q? 18:31:35 zakim, unmute me 18:31:36 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:32:03 q? 18:32:09 ack jeremy 18:32:10 q+ to postpone 91 to next week: want to think about alan's mail 18:32:16 jeremy: mentions as example owl:imports which is not an annotation 18:32:17 NOTE: The ontology-import construct owl:imports and the ontology-versioning constructs owl:priorVersion, owl:backwardCompatibleWith and owl:incompatibleWith are defined in the OWL vocabulary as instances of the OWL built-in class owl:OntologyProperty. Instances of owl:OntologyProperty must have the class owl:Ontology as their domain and range. It is permitted to define other instances of... 18:32:18 ...owl:OntologyProperty. In OWL DL for ontology properties the same constraints hold as those specified for annotation properties in Sec. 7.1. 18:32:24 http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#Annotations 18:32:24 q- 18:32:39 Ian: this sounds to complicated to be resolved today, we will postpone 18:32:59 directive ::= 'Annotation(' ontologyPropertyID ontologyID ')' 18:32:59 | 'Annotation(' annotationPropertyID URIreference ')' 18:33:03 Action: on jeremy to send an email proposing a resolution of 91 18:33:03 Sorry, couldn't find user - on 18:33:12 q+ to suggest table be non-normative 18:33:21 Action: jeremy to send an email proposing a resolution of 91 18:33:21 Created ACTION-85 - Send an email proposing a resolution of 91 [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-02-20]. 18:33:22 q+ 18:33:29 action: jeremy to send proposal for issue-91 ontology property 18:33:29 Created ACTION-86 - Send proposal for issue-91 ontology property [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-02-20]. 18:33:33 Topic: Issue 95 18:33:48 q? 18:33:49 oops 18:33:50 Ian: there is now a table relating facets to datatypes 18:33:50 q? 18:33:58 ack msmith 18:33:58 msmith, you wanted to suggest table be non-normative 18:34:02 q+ 18:34:04 q? 18:34:09 +1 to resolution 18:34:12 q+ 18:34:15 msmith: would prefer this table being non-normative 18:34:15 q- 18:34:15 ack bmotik 18:34:20 q? 18:34:36 bmotik: we need to restrict the datarange inside datatype restrictions 18:34:53 +1 to boris 18:34:54 bmotik: without such a restriction, this table is meaningless 18:34:55 q+ to table 18:35:04 q? 18:35:08 q+ 18:35:18 alan doesn't recall that. 18:35:27 q- 18:35:32 q- 18:35:33 I suggest resolving as is 18:35:46 Boris' suggestion sounds overly restrictive 18:35:52 q? 18:35:55 zakim, unmute me 18:35:55 m_schnei should no longer be muted 18:36:03 +1 to resolving it for now...we can revisit it as we consider, e.g., n-ary 18:36:23 zakim, mute me 18:36:23 m_schnei should now be muted 18:36:24 m_schnei: is missing explanation of meaning in this table 18:36:31 bmotik: agrees 18:36:50 -1 to resolve as is 18:36:53 -0 18:36:53 -0 18:36:54 I vote with boris 18:36:56 -1 18:37:08 +1 to postpone with n-ary 18:37:24 Ian: is disappointed :( 18:37:30 zakim, mute me 18:37:30 jeremy should now be muted 18:37:36 zakim, unmute me 18:37:36 Carsten should no longer be muted 18:37:39 Topic: eneral Discussions (30 min) 18:37:44 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.01.30/Discussion 18:37:56 Topic: Fragments and Conformance 18:38:06 q? 18:38:12 zakim, mute me 18:38:12 m_schnei was already muted, m_schnei 18:38:17 q? 18:38:18 q- 18:38:18 q+ 18:38:23 Ian: do we want to retain OWL Lite 18:38:23 zakim, unmute me 18:38:23 bijan should no longer be muted 18:38:35 q? 18:38:36 bijan: we shouldn't retain OWL lite 18:38:46 q? 18:38:53 +1 to not retaining OWL Lite 18:39:04 q+ 18:39:05 bijan: OWL lite is difficult for an implementor 18:39:08 +1 18:39:14 ack bijan 18:39:19 +1 to not retaining OWL Lite (as currently defined) - perhaps retain the name and brand some other fragment 18:39:23 +1 to bijan 18:39:26 q? 18:39:27 bijan: doesn't know of any OWL lite tools 18:39:35 q+ jluciano 18:39:38 q+ joanne 18:39:43 q- joanne 18:40:24 hendler: thought he could suggest to let OWL lite go, but has heard people screaming out about this 18:40:41 q+ 18:40:42 q+ 18:40:44 hendler: sees external critique for dropping 18:40:44 q? 18:40:54 ack hendler 18:41:04 ack jluciano 18:41:10 +q 18:41:15 q+ 18:41:15 jluciano: suggests to asks for input by OWL lite community 18:41:23 q+ to suggest note explaining old OWL Lite's relation to OWL DL, emphasizing similar actual complexity 18:41:25 Zakim, unmute me 18:41:25 bcuencag should no longer be muted 18:41:40 Ian: this would be helpful 18:41:40 q? 18:41:53 Zakim, mute me 18:41:53 bcuencag should now be muted 18:41:54 q- pfps 18:41:57 I'll note that you can stay in owl lite 18:41:58 q? 18:42:03 q+ 18:42:05 even if we don't sanction it 18:42:06 pfps: if users were upset, they should speak out 18:42:08 ack alanr 18:42:08 alanr, you wanted to suggest note explaining old OWL Lite's relation to OWL DL, emphasizing similar actual complexity 18:42:16 q? 18:43:08 +1 18:43:09 q? 18:43:12 Zakim, unmute me 18:43:12 bcuencag should no longer be muted 18:43:16 alanr: hears that people using OWL lite are worried. Suggests to draft note with an explanation of how OWL lite relates to OWL DL, and suggest to not use it 18:43:30 ack bcuencag 18:43:32 q+ to suggest non computational advantages 18:43:39 q? 18:43:47 +q 18:43:55 ...but to use OWL DL instead because it is so close and not computationally much cheaper 18:44:05 q- 18:44:07 Zakim, mute me 18:44:07