IRC log of html-wg on 2008-02-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:01:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
17:01:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:01:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.282.aacc
17:01:44 [Zakim]
17:02:18 [aroben]
Zakim: conference code?
17:03:02 [Julian]
Zakim, conference code?
17:03:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Julian
17:03:12 [aroben]
Julian: thanks
17:03:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.814.308.aadd
17:03:53 [aroben]
Zakim, +1.814.308.aadd is me
17:03:53 [Zakim]
+aroben; got it
17:03:58 [Zakim]
17:06:15 [Julian]
Usually this works much better :-)
17:07:12 [Zakim]
17:07:40 [anne]
Julian, is there any process whatsoever on getting the IETF to adopt HTML or something as base format?
17:08:19 [Julian]
Annw: has been tried many times with no access. Big Sigh.
17:08:25 [DanC_lap]
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17:08:41 [anne]
k :(
17:09:03 [Julian]
17:09:08 [DanC_lap]
17:09:15 [DanC_lap]
agenda + Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-02-07T17:00:00Z
17:09:20 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, take up item 1
17:09:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-01-24T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
17:09:44 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:09:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Julian, +1.703.282.aacc, aroben, DanC
17:10:32 [ChrisWilson]
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17:10:39 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, aacc is Miles_DeFeyter
17:10:39 [Zakim]
+Miles_DeFeyter; got it
17:11:03 [DanC_lap]
Adam Roben Apple, Inc.
17:11:33 [DanC_lap]
all new WG members are invited to fill out a survey
17:11:35 [Zakim]
17:11:43 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:11:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Julian, Miles_DeFeyter, aroben, DanC, [Microsoft]
17:11:46 [ChrisWilson]
Zakim, Microsoft is me
17:11:46 [Zakim]
+ChrisWilson; got it
17:12:14 [MattRaymond]
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17:12:45 [DanC_lap]
agenda + sniffing tests ACTION-44
17:13:29 [DanC_lap]
Miles introduces himself... leads adoption of modern tech at AOL
17:14:25 [Zakim]
17:14:41 [sampablokuper]
DanC: Thanks for the survey link. I see I'm a non-responder. Will correct that asap.
17:14:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.265.aaee
17:14:58 [MattRaymond]
Survey URL?
17:15:00 [DanC_lap]
thanks, sam
17:15:06 [DanC_lap]
all new WG members are invited to fill out a survey
17:15:19 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, aaee is Miles
17:15:19 [Zakim]
+Miles; got it
17:15:22 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
17:15:22 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list?" taken up [from DanC]
17:15:32 [anne]
Regrets+ Anne
17:15:45 [anne]
(my apologies, something came up)
17:16:17 [DanC_lap]
Emphasizing STRIKE Leif Halvard Silli (Wednesday, 6 February) etc.
17:17:13 [MattRaymond]
Semantic discussions probably account for > 50% of the mail on the mailing list already...
17:17:26 [DanC_lap]
DanC: I added many of the phrase level elements to HTML 2; I'm not sure I made good choices, and I'm inclined to stay out of the modern discussion; how about a separate mailing list?
17:17:31 [Julian]
...another topic would be accessability
17:17:49 [DanC_lap]
MattRaymond, are you on the phone? hmm.. expand from just phrase-level to semantic? I wonder.
17:18:02 [ChrisWilson]
true, though I'm a little inclined to treat accessibility as a basic, that everyone needs to internalize.
17:18:23 [MattRaymond]
I'm not on the phone. My cell's battery is too low.
17:18:28 [DanC_lap]
indeed, let's not separate out accessibility
17:19:10 [MattRaymond]
Perhaps separate out <canvas>???
17:19:15 [Julian]
17:19:20 [ChrisWilson]
17:19:22 [DanC_lap]
agenda + separate canvas [MattRaymond]
17:19:41 [MattRaymond]
I meant that in a mailing list context, BTW...
17:19:43 [DanC_lap]
ACTION: Dan start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements
17:19:43 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-48 - Start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
17:20:04 [DanC_lap]
17:20:11 [DanC_lap]
17:20:28 [DanC_lap]
17:20:29 [anne]
for those few e-mails?
17:20:37 [DanC_lap]
seems like more than few to me
17:20:54 [aroben]
anne: do you mean canvas-related emails or phrase-related emails?
17:20:57 [anne]
please do check the declining rate of e-mail here:
17:21:03 [anne]
aroben, either
17:21:05 [Julian]
17:21:11 [ChrisWilson]
Philip - then I'd like somewhere where I could get the relevant MS people involved in a discussion, that IS under our patent policy, to discuss canvas.
17:21:11 [DanC_lap]
17:21:11 [anne]
splitting out <canvas> e-mail would make even less sense
17:21:20 [sampablokuper]
Julian: +1
17:21:30 [DanC_lap]
17:21:40 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, close item 9
17:21:40 [Zakim]
agendum 9, Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-02-07T17:00:00Z, closed
17:21:42 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:43 [Zakim]
8. phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list? [from DanC]
17:21:45 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, close item 8
17:21:45 [Zakim]
agendum 8, phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list?, closed
17:21:47 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:49 [Zakim]
10. sniffing tests ACTION-44 [from DanC_lap]
17:21:51 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
17:21:51 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "sniffing tests ACTION-44" taken up [from DanC_lap]
17:22:27 [DanC_lap]
17:22:27 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with the HTTP specification? -- OPEN
17:22:27 [trackbot-ng]
17:23:46 [DanC_lap]
-> on Investigate expected results to tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG
17:24:30 [DanC_lap]
anne, can you look into getting the content-encoding wierdness isolated/fixed?
17:25:22 [DanC_lap]
Julian: I got an answer to my question about illegal characters in text/html
17:25:33 [Miles]
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17:25:44 [MattRaymond]
Off-topic: If we have time, could you talk about handling experimental extensions to HTML documents in HTML5?
17:27:45 [DanC_lap]
ACTION: Dan prompt Ian Hickson to answer the question about why the sniffing rules are a MUST
17:27:45 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-49 - Prompt Ian Hickson to answer the question about why the sniffing rules are a MUST [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
17:30:13 [DanC_lap]
JR: yes, I'll send a few data points about the test results
17:30:29 [DanC_lap]
DanC: ok; then I'll mark them up in EARL
17:30:34 [DanC_lap]
(and hReview)
17:32:17 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, close this item
17:32:17 [Zakim]
agendum 10 closed
17:32:18 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:32:20 [Zakim]
11. separate canvas [from MattRaymond via DanC_lap]
17:32:40 [MattRaymond]
17:32:46 [DanC_lap]
Julian, pointer to this item in the http issues list?
17:33:26 [Julian]
17:34:09 [DanC_lap]
DanC: oh; they're using trac?
17:34:13 [Sander]
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17:34:19 [DanC_lap]
JR: yes; mnot ported the issues over
17:34:30 [DanC_lap]
ticket 20 is "Default charsets for text media types"
17:35:04 [MattRaymond]
"...have a default charset value of 'ISO-8859-1'..."
17:36:20 [DanC_lap]
17:36:20 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-46 -- Julian Reschke to ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update -- due 2008-01-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:36:20 [trackbot-ng]
17:36:44 [DanC_lap]
JR: Eric Lawrence [sp?] is in the HTTP WG records
17:36:50 [DanC_lap]
CW: yes, he's on the IE team
17:37:26 [ChrisWilson]
[correct sp]
17:37:33 [DanC_lap]
close action-46
17:37:34 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-46 Ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update closed
17:37:44 [DanC_lap]
"It is not a high priority item, but I'd
17:37:44 [DanC_lap]
> think I'll do it some time in Q1 2008."
17:38:16 [DanC_lap]
17:38:16 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-11 -- Dan Connolly to show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
17:38:16 [trackbot-ng]
17:38:22 [DanC_lap]
continues. :-/
17:38:45 [DanC_lap]
agenda + aria-role ISSUE-14
17:38:50 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, take up item 12
17:38:50 [Zakim]
agendum 12. "aria-role ISSUE-14" taken up [from DanC_lap]
17:39:05 [MattRaymond]
Please make lots of IRC messages on Action-11/Issue-14, folks.
17:39:09 [DanC_lap]
17:39:09 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-8 -- Michael Cooper to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
17:39:09 [trackbot-ng]
17:39:11 [jgraham_mibbit]
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17:39:33 [DanC_lap]
17:39:33 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests using ARIA -- due 2008-02-14 -- OPEN
17:39:33 [trackbot-ng]
17:39:49 [DanC_lap]
agenda + next meeting 14 Feb?
17:40:11 [DanC_lap]
CW: yes, I can chair next week. 4pm Los Angeles time
17:40:53 [DanC_lap]
-> WAI-ARIA for Accessible Rich Web Applications: First Public Working Drafts
17:40:53 [MattRaymond]
So, the whole "aria-*" business will be discussed next week?
17:41:00 [DanC_lap]
it's being discussed now
17:41:24 [MattRaymond]
Sorry, not on phone.
17:41:35 [DanC_lap]
17:41:52 [DanC_lap]
anybody know if Gregory is likely to attend next week?
17:42:48 [DanC_lap] <- that stuff happened
17:43:49 [DanC_lap]
agenda + HTML WG test jam in Austin at SXSW
17:44:00 [DanC_lap]
17:44:14 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, close item 13
17:44:14 [Zakim]
agendum 13, next meeting 14 Feb?, closed
17:44:15 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:44:16 [Zakim]
11. separate canvas [from MattRaymond via DanC_lap]
17:44:23 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
17:44:23 [Zakim]
agendum 11. "separate canvas" taken up [from MattRaymond]
17:44:52 [DanC_lap]
17:44:52 [trackbot-ng]
ISSUE-15 -- requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element -- CLOSED
17:44:52 [trackbot-ng]
17:45:34 [DanC_lap]
who was interested in a separate mailing list for canvas?
17:45:53 [tH_]
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17:45:57 [MattRaymond]
Not me. I was just thinking off the top of my head.
17:46:20 [DanC_lap]
CW: I'd like to accelerate work on canvas, and it's easier for MS folks in a separate mailing list at W3C
17:47:28 [MattRaymond]
Anything that would accelerate MS adoption of <canvas> is welcome, I suppose, but what are the main roadblocks that a separate mailing list would remove?
17:47:32 [DanC_lap]
ACTION: Dan investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W.
17:47:33 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-50 - Investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W. [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
17:47:57 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
17:47:57 [Zakim]
agendum 14. "HTML WG test jam in Austin at SXSW" taken up [from DanC_lap]
17:48:14 [DanC_lap]
17:48:14 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-42 -- Dan Connolly to ask Olivier and Karl about progress on "story telling and test cases" since the Nov ftf -- due 2008-01-30 -- OPEN
17:48:14 [trackbot-ng]
17:48:54 [DanC_lap]
DanC: how about a test jam 7-11 March in Austin near SXSW?
17:49:04 [Miles]
i am for it
17:49:34 [DanC_lap]
anybody likely to attend, in addition to me?
17:50:01 [DanC_lap]
CW: I'm getting in late on 9 Mar
17:50:04 [aroben]
DanC_lap: at least not in person
17:50:18 [Miles]
I can attend anytime during the 7-11 timeframe
17:50:33 [DanC_lap]
ok, so I'll look into 10 or 11 March
17:50:47 [DanC_lap]
CW: we're reprising the panel with CMN, Brendan... on 10 March
17:51:44 [DanC_lap]
ACTION: Dan try to set up an HTML WG test jam in Austin 10 or 11 March
17:51:44 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-51 - Try to set up an HTML WG test jam in Austin 10 or 11 March [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
17:51:51 [DanC_lap]
Zakim, next item
17:51:51 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC_lap
17:52:06 [DanC_lap]
17:52:14 [Zakim]
17:52:15 [Zakim]
17:52:17 [Zakim]
17:52:21 [Zakim]
17:52:22 [Miles]
Miles has left #html-wg
17:52:40 [Zakim]
17:52:41 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:52:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were Julian, +1.703.282.aabb, +1.703.282.aacc, DanC, aroben, Miles_DeFeyter, ChrisWilson, +1.703.265.aaee, Miles
17:53:36 [MattRaymond]
Okay, anyone want to talk about how to handle experimental HTML5 implementations in release browsers. I think Opera showed how that's an issue with their WF2 support...
17:55:24 [aroben]
MattRaymond: not sure what you mean
17:55:29 [jgraham_mibbit]
MattRaymond: What's the problem, exactly? I you mean "people will implement and then we'll be constrained by those implementations", that's not necessarily a bad thing...
17:56:14 [MattRaymond]
It would be nice if there was an established way to handle experimental extensions, like we already can in CSS the the "-vendor-" prefix.
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17:57:04 [MattRaymond]
You could already do that for <input> types: "-vendor-datetime"...
17:57:38 [jgraham_mibbit]
With attributes it could work though it would be ugly. For elements I don't think it can work
17:58:07 [jgraham_mibbit]
e.g. <apple-canvas> would just become the de-facto standard rather than <canvas>
17:58:18 [jgraham_mibbit]
and I don't quite see what the win is
17:59:06 [MattRaymond]
Perhaps an attribute, then: <canvas experimental="true">???
17:59:48 [MattRaymond]
<canvas ua="IE8">?
18:00:00 [MattRaymond]
Oh, that looks bad! :(
18:00:13 [Philip]
What would that attribute do?
18:00:33 [MattRaymond]
That's why it looks bad.
18:01:11 [jgraham_mibbit]
What's the problem you're trying to solve?
18:01:42 [smedero]
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18:02:08 [DanC_lap]
close action-42
18:02:08 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-42 Ask Olivier and Karl about progress on "story telling and test cases" since the Nov ftf closed
18:02:40 [MattRaymond]
Idea is to somehow have experimental markup work only in a specific UA, but I guess that in itself is a poor idea on the Internet...
18:03:56 [ChrisWilson]
Matt/Jgraham: not sure what's wrong with experiment-canvas?
18:04:41 [jgraham_mibbit]
MattRaymond: Well it will already only work in UAs that support it... the main problem I see is that sometimes the first implementations aren't great, or the spec moves and people need to update their implementation without breaking existing content
18:04:46 [Philip]
If a UA is implementing a new element like <canvas>, then people can just write <canvas ...> and already it will work only in that specific UA
18:05:50 [aroben]
Philip: I guess the worry is that the behavior of that element might change over time
18:05:52 [ChrisWilson]
the problem happens when people have already written the content, and you want to standardize it slightly differently. Hence the x-ua-compatible (which covers things like the XHR "we'll change it in the standard" things as well as CSS2.1 changes from CSS2)
18:06:01 [ChrisWilson]
WILL change over time.
18:06:12 [ChrisWilson]
unless you just standardize the first experimental implementation.
18:07:02 [MattRaymond]
In either case, if you don't have a good specification of the feature BEFORE implementation, it hurts everyone.
18:07:39 [MattRaymond]
It need not be open, per se, but it would need to be at least implementable from the spec.
18:08:09 [MattRaymond]
Not that I think well-specced proprietary markup is the way to go, mind you.
18:08:09 [ChrisWilson]
"need not be open"?
18:08:10 [jgraham_mibbit]
ChrisWilson: That depends on a lot of things, like how long the experimental implementation is around for, how big the incompatible changes are, how many sites use the feature. For <canvas> there have been a few incompatible changes that early adopters have agreed to
18:08:33 [jgraham_mibbit]
18:08:53 [MattRaymond]
CW: To be implementable by others, it need not be from an open standards process, in other words.
18:09:13 [MattRaymond]
But it does need to be implementable in an open fashion.
18:09:50 [ChrisWilson]
ah. True. But open standards should be openly developed, I presume?
18:10:08 [MattRaymond]
Yes. Provides more review and input.
18:10:28 [MattRaymond]
Also assures less of a conflict of interest in development of the spec.
18:10:29 [Philip]
<canvas> mostly doesn't come from an open standards process
18:10:39 [jgraham_mibbit]
MattRaymond: Having features developed by standards committees has not historically led to good standards
18:10:54 [Philip]
(and it seems people think that was a mistake)
18:11:03 [jgraham_mibbit]
Implementation and development need to be closely entwined
18:11:16 [jgraham_mibbit]
18:13:31 [adele]
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18:15:20 [MattRaymond]
True. Obviously, ideas have to start somewhere. ODF started as a proprietary format. The difference between that and something like OOXML is that ODF was both intended for external implementation, was altered to better support other standards during the standardization process, and went through a much more open process. Standardization of various concepts should start at as early a stage as...
18:15:22 [MattRaymond]
...possible to minimize damage.
18:17:11 [jgraham_mibbit]
Yeah, I agree
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18:57:23 [aroben]
anne: he was hoping someone would be able to change so that it doesn't serve some of the tests with Content-Encoding: gzip
18:57:33 [aroben]
anne: and he thought you might be able to make that change.
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19:04:31 [gsnedders]
aroben: Hixie and Hixie only can
19:04:37 [aroben]
gsnedders: that was my assumption
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19:45:34 [Dashiva]
Isn't that why you have access, so you can judge what needs to be added?
19:47:20 [ChrisWilson]
19:47:51 [jgraham]
I don't have a clear idea of what criteria I should use to judge though
19:51:21 [jgraham]
(the things so far have all seemed reasonable, but I don't really know what to do if someone asks for something crazy to be added)
19:53:18 [gsnedders]
jgraham: can you add the issue of not mandating well-formness errors in text/html?
19:53:35 [gsnedders]
s/errors/fatal errors/
19:53:53 [smedero]
jgraham: everything you've added so far made sense as an issue to me.
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19:56:03 [smedero]
At one point
19:56:18 [smedero]
Mike Smith and Dan Connolly had a thread on this
19:56:20 [smedero]
DanC said
19:56:22 [smedero]
"An issue is something that the whole WG should decide on;
19:56:22 [smedero]
just because one person makes a request doesn't oblige
19:56:22 [smedero]
the whole WG to act on it.
19:56:23 [smedero]
Feel free to take actions any time you please, but be
19:56:23 [smedero]
conservative about making new issues, please."
19:56:51 [smedero]
that said... the issues raised seemed like matters that generated a large amount of discussion within the group
19:57:04 [smedero]
longdesc and image alt=""
19:57:24 [smedero]
they're pretty well documented on the wiki (I know image alt="" is and I think longdesc/summary are too)
19:58:10 [smedero]
well... "well documented" in this case means a "ton of info = organized".
19:58:18 [smedero]
i meant unorganized...
20:03:32 [smedero]
sorry I've been slacking on the issue tracking help... i'm in the "last throws" of relocate myself from the east to west coast.
20:03:57 [smedero]
thankfullly my philly house just went on the market yesterday
20:04:05 [smedero]
and my wife and child are moving out to seattle tomorrow
20:04:26 [smedero]
not that anyone cares. :)
20:04:35 [smedero]
just explaining my total drop-off since Jan 1.
20:06:05 [jgraham]
smedero: I will probably slack off when I start writing up my thesis. OTOH, it might seem like good procrastination :)
20:21:41 [ChrisWilson]
smedero: well I care - we can hang out! Where in Seattle are you moving?
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20:49:23 [smedero]
ChrisWilson: I'm living in Wallingford (renting for now) and working in Bellevue.
20:50:34 [smedero]
Wallingford seemed pretty family friendly, was close to Green Lake, and seemed accessible to the other major points of Seattle.
20:52:14 [smedero]
My carpool passes Microsoft Connector shuttles on the freeway and we keep hoping we can leech some wifi access but predictably that has not worked so well. :)
20:54:35 [ChrisWilson]
Nice! We lived in Wallingford (39th and Eastern Ave) when we first moved to Seattle. It's a fun neighborhood, and it is convenient to a lot of Seattle.
20:56:21 [ChrisWilson]
We live north-east from there now, way up in View Ridge neighborhood (NE 75th St and 45th Avenue NE)
20:57:05 [smedero]
Ok, I'm vaguely familiar with that... I've been taking the bus out to the various spots to just get acquainted with things before my family arrives.
20:57:12 [smedero]
We are carless for the time being....
20:57:33 [smedero]
my tired jeep cherokee didn't feel like driving or being towed for 2700 miles...
20:57:42 [ChrisWilson]
Wallingford worked WAY better with the bus system (and bike) than View Ridge.
20:59:21 [ChrisWilson]
I think the wi-fi on the Connector is locked down pretty hard, though - I've tried to connect from my car driving alongside the bus (no, not me driving)
20:59:47 [smedero]
hahahaha. yeah, I wasn't surprised.
21:00:27 [ChrisWilson]
whoops, late for a meeting again.
21:10:29 [Lachy]
oh, I forgot all about the telcon again.
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