14:49:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:49:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/07-bpwg-irc
14:49:57 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:49:57 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:49:59 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:49:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:50:00 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:50:00 <trackbot-ng> Date: 07 February 2008
14:51:36 <jo> zakim, old chap, ping me in 8 minutes
14:51:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'old chap, ping me in 8 minutes', jo
14:51:51 <jo> zakim, ping me in 8 minutes
14:51:51 <Zakim> ok, jo
14:55:27 <miguel> miguel has joined #bpwg
14:56:34 <yeliz> yeliz has joined #bpwg
14:58:53 <adam> adam has joined #bpwg
14:59:02 <francois> Regrets: Kai, MartinJ, achuter, RobFinean, chaals, hgerlach, Abel, nacho, Murari
14:59:26 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:34 <Zakim> +[W3C-Spain]
14:59:36 <dom> zakim, code?
14:59:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
14:59:46 <miguel> Zakim, [W3C-Spain] is me
14:59:46 <Zakim> +miguel; got it
14:59:48 <Zakim> +Dom
14:59:51 <Zakim> jo, you asked to be pinged at this time
15:00:00 <Zakim> + +1.781.267.aaaa
15:00:05 <Zakim> + +0207881aabb
15:00:16 <Zakim> +francois
15:00:41 <Magnus> Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:00:42 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:00:47 <adam> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:47 <Zakim> +adam; got it
15:01:17 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
15:01:22 <skarim> skarim has joined #bpwg
15:01:31 <Magnus> zakim, code?
15:01:31 <Zakim> the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:01:41 <Zakim> +Magnus
15:02:20 <dom> zakim, aaaa is Shahriar
15:02:20 <Zakim> sorry, dom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:02:23 <Zakim> +??P24
15:02:37 <dom> zakim, adam is really Shahriar
15:02:37 <Zakim> +Shahriar; got it
15:02:41 <dom> zakim, aabb is adam
15:02:41 <Zakim> +adam; got it
15:02:53 <dom> zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see miguel, Dom, Shahriar, adam, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, ??P24
15:02:58 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:02:58 <Zakim> sorry, yeliz, I do not know which phone connection belongs to yeliz
15:03:04 <francois> Regrets+ PhilA
15:03:05 <Zakim> +jo
15:03:06 <dom> zakim, ??P24 is yeliz
15:03:06 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
15:03:12 <Zakim> +Jason
15:03:15 <dom> zakim, mute yeliz
15:03:15 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:03:21 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
15:03:21 <Zakim> yeliz was already muted, yeliz
15:03:34 <Zakim> + +01425503aacc
15:03:44 <jo> zakim, who is making noise?
15:03:54 <Zakim> jo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shahriar (54%), Dom (4%), +01425503aacc (44%)
15:04:03 <francois> zakim, aacc is Emmanuel
15:04:06 <Zakim> +Emmanuel; got it
15:04:19 <Alan_Tai> Alan_Tai has joined #bpwg
15:04:45 <Emmanuel> Emmanuel has joined #bpwg
15:04:45 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0000.html
15:04:49 <dom> Chair: Jo
15:05:03 <dom> Regrets+ PhilA
15:05:12 <Zakim> +kemp
15:05:22 <kemp> kemp has joined #bpwg
15:05:31 <drooks> drooks has joined #bpwg
15:05:46 <Jason> Jason has joined #bpwg
15:07:06 <dom> ScribeNick: kemp
15:07:21 <francois> Topic: introducing Emmanuel
15:09:26 <kemp> jo: next up, object tasting
15:09:41 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:10:39 <Zakim> +Sean_Owen
15:10:57 <dom> http://www.w3.org/2008/01/object-mwbp-test/results
15:11:11 <Zakim> +SeanP
15:11:19 <srowen> srowen has joined #bpwg
15:11:24 <dom> dom: based on these results, I think we should only count objects when the type attribute is not set
15:11:41 <francois> i/jo: next up, /Topic: mobileOK Object Tasting Experiment/
15:11:44 <kemp> jo: ok anything else on object tasting?
15:12:15 <kemp> Topic: Task force updates
15:12:20 <kemp> jo: francois ,thanks for your update...
15:12:45 <kemp> francois: i think we are at the point in the CT task force where we have some deadlines and we need to move from a wishlist to something practical
15:12:50 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:13:04 <kemp> ... i sent a long email, and there isn't a call next week, so lets discuss the email on the list.
15:13:10 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Feb/0041.html francois' mail on moving forward in the CT TF
15:13:13 <kemp> ... and get something practical into the guidelines so we can move forward
15:13:23 <kemp> jo: i agree, i think the time has come to press forward
15:13:35 <kemp> ... any other TF members want to comment?
15:13:47 <Zakim> +??P42
15:14:13 <kemp> Magnus: yes I am still digesting your email francois, but i have a comment about the content transformation being an extension of the browser.
15:14:36 <kemp> ... this is up for dispute.  there are other situations, like when a mobile operator adds a proxy under contract
15:14:57 <Bryan> q+
15:14:59 <kemp> q+
15:15:28 <jo> ack b
15:16:08 <kemp> Bryan: there are a number of value added services CTs provide that are already deployed.  within the scope of the guidelines, the objectives are interoperability etc
15:16:30 <Magnus> q+
15:16:31 <kemp> ... however other things may override these objectives (contractual obligations for example) but are outside the scope
15:16:47 <jo> ack kemp
15:17:11 <dom> [a contract between an operator and a user does imply that the user gave his consent, doesn't it?]
15:17:29 <Bryan_Sullivan> Bryan_Sullivan has joined #bpwg
15:17:30 <jo> ack m
15:17:46 <kemp> kemp: there are both types of use cases, though, sometimes it really is an extension of the browser, sometimes it is a proxy under contract, etc.
15:18:02 <francois> q+
15:18:14 <kemp> Magnus: i just wanted to make it clear that there are times it is not a valid assumption that the user is in ultimate control
15:18:28 <francois> q-
15:18:41 <kemp> jo: ok i think we shouldn't continue on this in this call.  but it seems like the majority (except for me) sees it much the same way.
15:18:56 <kemp> ... that is, that the transforming gateway can be considered part of the user's equipment.
15:19:13 <kemp> ... so we may want to progress using that view, and explicitly state it.  francois?
15:19:22 <kemp> francois: i think you are right, we should continue the discussion on the mailing list.
15:19:42 <kemp> jo: ok, anything else on content transformation?
15:20:01 <kemp> Topic: Mobile OK Checker
15:20:12 <dom> [I say, let's do it today]
15:20:17 <kemp> srowen: i think we might finally be in a position to put out a release
15:20:37 <kemp> ... i haven't heard any objections to my email.  no other particular news.
15:20:58 <kemp> jo: i have one question about the additional ??? tests
15:21:13 <kemp> srowen: yes it seems people wanted these tests.
15:21:24 <kemp> jo: ok so it seems we should update mobileOK with these tests
15:21:35 <kemp> s/\?\?\?/pseudo/
15:21:44 <dom> [I don't think it needs to be added to mobileOK]
15:21:53 <kemp> srowen: i didn't think that this pseudo-test needed to be added to mobileOK
15:22:08 <kemp> jo: ok but my concern was that if we don't say something about failing, you can't fail.
15:22:28 <kemp> srowen: ok well we should chat on list
15:22:48 <kemp> Topic: mobileOK Pro
15:23:09 <dom> zakim, who's on the call?
15:23:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see miguel, Dom, Shahriar, adam, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, yeliz (muted), jo, Jason, Emmanuel, kemp, Sean_Owen, SeanP, ??P42
15:23:41 <dom> zakim, ??P42 is probably drooks
15:23:41 <Zakim> +drooks?; got it
15:24:02 <kemp> jo: i will try to summarize since we can't hear
15:24:12 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0001.html Kai's report of mobileOK Pro TF F2F
15:24:34 <kemp> jo: it seems, in summary, that a substantial amount of progress has been made, and that the group may be able to produce things by last call
15:24:47 <kemp> adam: i was there, too
15:25:18 <kemp> ... i don't think i have a lot to add.  we went through all the tests, divided them up and gave two weeks to work on them and get back to the group.
15:25:31 <kemp> ... we made notes on the tests about subjectivity issues and open questions around each of them.
15:25:35 <jo> s/by last call/- last call in June
15:26:00 <kemp> adam: so presenting back to the group in two weeks is the plan
15:26:10 <kemp> jo: ok anything further on mobileOK pro?
15:26:17 <kemp> Topic: Mobile / Accessibility
15:26:34 <kemp> jo: plan was to review the document, starting where we left off, but since Alan isn't here, it's not practical to do this.
15:26:42 <dom> agenda+ whether we meet next week given MWC
15:26:54 <kemp> jo: deferred to next week
15:26:59 <kemp> Topic: BP 2
15:27:34 <kemp> Bryan_Sullivan: i did finally get it uploaded.
15:27:43 <Bryan_Sullivan> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080206/
15:27:44 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/att-0012/Mobile_Web_Best_Practices_2_0_080206.htm Bryan's updated draft of BP2 (member-only)
15:28:12 <kemp> Bryan_Sullivan: i'd appreciate some guidance on where to put things/name them etc.
15:28:40 <kemp> ... the updates i have made are around areas that i am particularly interested in and areas that are important to us as service providers.
15:29:12 <kemp> ... As you'll notice, I establish some criteria for the sort of things we include in BP 2.
15:29:30 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FMember%2Fmember-bpwg%2F2008Jan%2Fatt-0003%2FMobile_Web_Best_Practices_2_0.htm&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2005%2FMWI%2FBPWG%2FGroup%2FDrafts%2FBestPractices-2.0%2FED-mobile-bp2-20080206%2F Diff since previous version
15:29:41 <kemp> ... Things like it needs to be essential to the mobile experience and that it is testable.
15:29:55 <kemp> ... I have put some content in around specific topics we feel are particularly important.
15:30:28 <kemp> ... To summarize, personalization, security/privacy, user awareness and control, and cookies and redirection.
15:31:03 <kemp> ... I also added some content around "conservative use of network traffic".
15:31:19 <kemp> ... So I'd like some feedback on the intended outcome of the document.
15:31:44 <kemp> jo: questions about the draft?  particularly on the criteria for inclusion?
15:31:58 <kemp> ... ok nothing, moving on.
15:32:04 <kemp> Topic: AOB
15:32:28 <kemp> dom: i just wanted to ask if there is a meeting next week, given that many will be in Barcelona
15:32:29 <dom> (regrets from me next week)
15:32:35 <Bryan_Sullivan> +1
15:32:36 <kemp> jo: ok straw pole, who is going to be here next week?
15:32:37 <kemp> +1
15:32:42 <kemp> s/pole/poll/
15:32:43 <francois> (regrets from me for next week)
15:32:43 <Emmanuel> +1
15:32:45 <adam> +1
15:32:47 <miguel> +1
15:32:47 <yeliz> +1
15:32:50 <Jason> +1
15:32:54 <SeanP> Regrets for next week
15:33:21 <kemp> jo: ok it seems like a significant number will be available, and alan said he would be back, so i think we should meet.
15:34:10 <kemp> jo: ok we will continue as normal next week
15:34:13 <kemp> jo: any other business?
15:34:23 <kemp> jo: ok thanks everyone
15:34:27 <Zakim> -Emmanuel
15:34:28 <Zakim> -Jason
15:34:29 <Jason> Jason has left #bpwg
15:34:30 <Zakim> -adam
15:34:31 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
15:34:34 <Zakim> -SeanP
15:34:35 <miguel> bye
15:34:35 <Zakim> -Magnus
15:34:36 <Zakim> -jo
15:34:37 <Zakim> -Dom
15:34:39 <srowen_> srowen_ has joined #bpwg
15:34:39 <Zakim> -francois
15:34:40 <Zakim> -yeliz
15:34:41 <Zakim> -Sean_Owen
15:34:42 <Zakim> -drooks?
15:34:44 <Zakim> -kemp
15:34:48 <yeliz> yeliz has left #bpwg
15:34:53 <francois> zakim, list attendees
15:34:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been miguel, Dom, +1.781.267.aaaa, +0207881aabb, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, Shahriar, adam, jo, yeliz, Jason, +01425503aacc, Emmanuel,
15:34:56 <Zakim> ... kemp, Sean_Owen, SeanP, drooks?
15:35:07 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:35:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/07-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:35:19 <Zakim> -miguel
15:36:00 <Zakim> -Shahriar
15:36:01 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:36:03 <Zakim> Attendees were miguel, Dom, +1.781.267.aaaa, +0207881aabb, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, Shahriar, adam, jo, yeliz, Jason, +01425503aacc, Emmanuel, kemp, Sean_Owen, SeanP,
15:36:05 <Zakim> ... drooks?