IRC log of bpwg on 2008-02-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:55 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:49:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/07-bpwg-irc
14:49:57 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:49:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:49:59 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:49:59 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:50:00 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:50:00 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 07 February 2008
14:51:36 [jo]
zakim, old chap, ping me in 8 minutes
14:51:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'old chap, ping me in 8 minutes', jo
14:51:51 [jo]
zakim, ping me in 8 minutes
14:51:51 [Zakim]
ok, jo
14:55:27 [miguel]
miguel has joined #bpwg
14:56:34 [yeliz]
yeliz has joined #bpwg
14:58:53 [adam]
adam has joined #bpwg
14:59:02 [francois]
Regrets: Kai, MartinJ, achuter, RobFinean, chaals, hgerlach, Abel, nacho, Murari
14:59:26 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:34 [Zakim]
+[W3C-Spain]
14:59:36 [dom]
zakim, code?
14:59:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
14:59:46 [miguel]
Zakim, [W3C-Spain] is me
14:59:46 [Zakim]
+miguel; got it
14:59:48 [Zakim]
+Dom
14:59:51 [Zakim]
jo, you asked to be pinged at this time
15:00:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.267.aaaa
15:00:05 [Zakim]
+ +0207881aabb
15:00:16 [Zakim]
+francois
15:00:41 [Magnus]
Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:00:42 [Bryan]
Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:00:47 [adam]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:47 [Zakim]
+adam; got it
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Sullivan
15:01:22 [skarim]
skarim has joined #bpwg
15:01:31 [Magnus]
zakim, code?
15:01:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:01:41 [Zakim]
+Magnus
15:02:20 [dom]
zakim, aaaa is Shahriar
15:02:20 [Zakim]
sorry, dom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:02:23 [Zakim]
+??P24
15:02:37 [dom]
zakim, adam is really Shahriar
15:02:37 [Zakim]
+Shahriar; got it
15:02:41 [dom]
zakim, aabb is adam
15:02:41 [Zakim]
+adam; got it
15:02:53 [dom]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see miguel, Dom, Shahriar, adam, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, ??P24
15:02:58 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:02:58 [Zakim]
sorry, yeliz, I do not know which phone connection belongs to yeliz
15:03:04 [francois]
Regrets+ PhilA
15:03:05 [Zakim]
+jo
15:03:06 [dom]
zakim, ??P24 is yeliz
15:03:06 [Zakim]
+yeliz; got it
15:03:12 [Zakim]
+Jason
15:03:15 [dom]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:03:15 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
15:03:21 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
15:03:21 [Zakim]
yeliz was already muted, yeliz
15:03:34 [Zakim]
+ +01425503aacc
15:03:44 [jo]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:03:54 [Zakim]
jo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shahriar (54%), Dom (4%), +01425503aacc (44%)
15:04:03 [francois]
zakim, aacc is Emmanuel
15:04:06 [Zakim]
+Emmanuel; got it
15:04:19 [Alan_Tai]
Alan_Tai has joined #bpwg
15:04:45 [Emmanuel]
Emmanuel has joined #bpwg
15:04:45 [dom]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0000.html
15:04:49 [dom]
Chair: Jo
15:05:03 [dom]
Regrets+ PhilA
15:05:12 [Zakim]
+kemp
15:05:22 [kemp]
kemp has joined #bpwg
15:05:31 [drooks]
drooks has joined #bpwg
15:05:46 [Jason]
Jason has joined #bpwg
15:07:06 [dom]
ScribeNick: kemp
15:07:21 [francois]
Topic: introducing Emmanuel
15:09:26 [kemp]
jo: next up, object tasting
15:09:41 [SeanP]
SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:10:39 [Zakim]
+Sean_Owen
15:10:57 [dom]
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/object-mwbp-test/results
15:11:11 [Zakim]
+SeanP
15:11:19 [srowen]
srowen has joined #bpwg
15:11:24 [dom]
dom: based on these results, I think we should only count objects when the type attribute is not set
15:11:41 [francois]
i/jo: next up, /Topic: mobileOK Object Tasting Experiment/
15:11:44 [kemp]
jo: ok anything else on object tasting?
15:12:15 [kemp]
Topic: Task force updates
15:12:20 [kemp]
jo: francois ,thanks for your update...
15:12:45 [kemp]
francois: i think we are at the point in the CT task force where we have some deadlines and we need to move from a wishlist to something practical
15:12:50 [Bryan]
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15:13:04 [kemp]
... i sent a long email, and there isn't a call next week, so lets discuss the email on the list.
15:13:10 [dom]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Feb/0041.html francois' mail on moving forward in the CT TF
15:13:13 [kemp]
... and get something practical into the guidelines so we can move forward
15:13:23 [kemp]
jo: i agree, i think the time has come to press forward
15:13:35 [kemp]
... any other TF members want to comment?
15:13:47 [Zakim]
+??P42
15:14:13 [kemp]
Magnus: yes I am still digesting your email francois, but i have a comment about the content transformation being an extension of the browser.
15:14:36 [kemp]
... this is up for dispute. there are other situations, like when a mobile operator adds a proxy under contract
15:14:57 [Bryan]
q+
15:14:59 [kemp]
q+
15:15:28 [jo]
ack b
15:16:08 [kemp]
Bryan: there are a number of value added services CTs provide that are already deployed. within the scope of the guidelines, the objectives are interoperability etc
15:16:30 [Magnus]
q+
15:16:31 [kemp]
... however other things may override these objectives (contractual obligations for example) but are outside the scope
15:16:47 [jo]
ack kemp
15:17:11 [dom]
[a contract between an operator and a user does imply that the user gave his consent, doesn't it?]
15:17:29 [Bryan_Sullivan]
Bryan_Sullivan has joined #bpwg
15:17:30 [jo]
ack m
15:17:46 [kemp]
kemp: there are both types of use cases, though, sometimes it really is an extension of the browser, sometimes it is a proxy under contract, etc.
15:18:02 [francois]
q+
15:18:14 [kemp]
Magnus: i just wanted to make it clear that there are times it is not a valid assumption that the user is in ultimate control
15:18:28 [francois]
q-
15:18:41 [kemp]
jo: ok i think we shouldn't continue on this in this call. but it seems like the majority (except for me) sees it much the same way.
15:18:56 [kemp]
... that is, that the transforming gateway can be considered part of the user's equipment.
15:19:13 [kemp]
... so we may want to progress using that view, and explicitly state it. francois?
15:19:22 [kemp]
francois: i think you are right, we should continue the discussion on the mailing list.
15:19:42 [kemp]
jo: ok, anything else on content transformation?
15:20:01 [kemp]
Topic: Mobile OK Checker
15:20:12 [dom]
[I say, let's do it today]
15:20:17 [kemp]
srowen: i think we might finally be in a position to put out a release
15:20:37 [kemp]
... i haven't heard any objections to my email. no other particular news.
15:20:58 [kemp]
jo: i have one question about the additional ??? tests
15:21:13 [kemp]
srowen: yes it seems people wanted these tests.
15:21:24 [kemp]
jo: ok so it seems we should update mobileOK with these tests
15:21:35 [kemp]
s/\?\?\?/pseudo/
15:21:44 [dom]
[I don't think it needs to be added to mobileOK]
15:21:53 [kemp]
srowen: i didn't think that this pseudo-test needed to be added to mobileOK
15:22:08 [kemp]
jo: ok but my concern was that if we don't say something about failing, you can't fail.
15:22:28 [kemp]
srowen: ok well we should chat on list
15:22:48 [kemp]
Topic: mobileOK Pro
15:23:09 [dom]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:23:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see miguel, Dom, Shahriar, adam, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, yeliz (muted), jo, Jason, Emmanuel, kemp, Sean_Owen, SeanP, ??P42
15:23:41 [dom]
zakim, ??P42 is probably drooks
15:23:41 [Zakim]
+drooks?; got it
15:24:02 [kemp]
jo: i will try to summarize since we can't hear
15:24:12 [dom]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0001.html Kai's report of mobileOK Pro TF F2F
15:24:34 [kemp]
jo: it seems, in summary, that a substantial amount of progress has been made, and that the group may be able to produce things by last call
15:24:47 [kemp]
adam: i was there, too
15:25:18 [kemp]
... i don't think i have a lot to add. we went through all the tests, divided them up and gave two weeks to work on them and get back to the group.
15:25:31 [kemp]
... we made notes on the tests about subjectivity issues and open questions around each of them.
15:25:35 [jo]
s/by last call/- last call in June
15:26:00 [kemp]
adam: so presenting back to the group in two weeks is the plan
15:26:10 [kemp]
jo: ok anything further on mobileOK pro?
15:26:17 [kemp]
Topic: Mobile / Accessibility
15:26:34 [kemp]
jo: plan was to review the document, starting where we left off, but since Alan isn't here, it's not practical to do this.
15:26:42 [dom]
agenda+ whether we meet next week given MWC
15:26:54 [kemp]
jo: deferred to next week
15:26:59 [kemp]
Topic: BP 2
15:27:34 [kemp]
Bryan_Sullivan: i did finally get it uploaded.
15:27:43 [Bryan_Sullivan]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080206/
15:27:44 [dom]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/att-0012/Mobile_Web_Best_Practices_2_0_080206.htm Bryan's updated draft of BP2 (member-only)
15:28:12 [kemp]
Bryan_Sullivan: i'd appreciate some guidance on where to put things/name them etc.
15:28:40 [kemp]
... the updates i have made are around areas that i am particularly interested in and areas that are important to us as service providers.
15:29:12 [kemp]
... As you'll notice, I establish some criteria for the sort of things we include in BP 2.
15:29:30 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FMember%2Fmember-bpwg%2F2008Jan%2Fatt-0003%2FMobile_Web_Best_Practices_2_0.htm&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2005%2FMWI%2FBPWG%2FGroup%2FDrafts%2FBestPractices-2.0%2FED-mobile-bp2-20080206%2F Diff since previous version
15:29:41 [kemp]
... Things like it needs to be essential to the mobile experience and that it is testable.
15:29:55 [kemp]
... I have put some content in around specific topics we feel are particularly important.
15:30:28 [kemp]
... To summarize, personalization, security/privacy, user awareness and control, and cookies and redirection.
15:31:03 [kemp]
... I also added some content around "conservative use of network traffic".
15:31:19 [kemp]
... So I'd like some feedback on the intended outcome of the document.
15:31:44 [kemp]
jo: questions about the draft? particularly on the criteria for inclusion?
15:31:58 [kemp]
... ok nothing, moving on.
15:32:04 [kemp]
Topic: AOB
15:32:28 [kemp]
dom: i just wanted to ask if there is a meeting next week, given that many will be in Barcelona
15:32:29 [dom]
(regrets from me next week)
15:32:35 [Bryan_Sullivan]
+1
15:32:36 [kemp]
jo: ok straw pole, who is going to be here next week?
15:32:37 [kemp]
+1
15:32:42 [kemp]
s/pole/poll/
15:32:43 [francois]
(regrets from me for next week)
15:32:43 [Emmanuel]
+1
15:32:45 [adam]
+1
15:32:47 [miguel]
+1
15:32:47 [yeliz]
+1
15:32:50 [Jason]
+1
15:32:54 [SeanP]
Regrets for next week
15:33:21 [kemp]
jo: ok it seems like a significant number will be available, and alan said he would be back, so i think we should meet.
15:34:10 [kemp]
jo: ok we will continue as normal next week
15:34:13 [kemp]
jo: any other business?
15:34:23 [kemp]
jo: ok thanks everyone
15:34:27 [Zakim]
-Emmanuel
15:34:28 [Zakim]
-Jason
15:34:29 [Jason]
Jason has left #bpwg
15:34:30 [Zakim]
-adam
15:34:31 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Sullivan
15:34:34 [Zakim]
-SeanP
15:34:35 [miguel]
bye
15:34:35 [Zakim]
-Magnus
15:34:36 [Zakim]
-jo
15:34:37 [Zakim]
-Dom
15:34:39 [srowen_]
srowen_ has joined #bpwg
15:34:39 [Zakim]
-francois
15:34:40 [Zakim]
-yeliz
15:34:41 [Zakim]
-Sean_Owen
15:34:42 [Zakim]
-drooks?
15:34:44 [Zakim]
-kemp
15:34:48 [yeliz]
yeliz has left #bpwg
15:34:53 [francois]
zakim, list attendees
15:34:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been miguel, Dom, +1.781.267.aaaa, +0207881aabb, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, Shahriar, adam, jo, yeliz, Jason, +01425503aacc, Emmanuel,
15:34:56 [Zakim]
... kemp, Sean_Owen, SeanP, drooks?
15:35:07 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:35:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/07-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:35:19 [Zakim]
-miguel
15:36:00 [Zakim]
-Shahriar
15:36:01 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:36:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were miguel, Dom, +1.781.267.aaaa, +0207881aabb, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, Shahriar, adam, jo, yeliz, Jason, +01425503aacc, Emmanuel, kemp, Sean_Owen, SeanP,
15:36:05 [Zakim]
... drooks?