IRC log of forms on 2008-02-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #forms

14:00:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc

14:00:09 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:00:11 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms

14:00:11 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng

14:00:12 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference

14:00:12 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 06 February 2008

14:00:32 [Steven]

zakim, reserved now?

14:00:32 [Zakim]

on Wed Feb 6 09:00:00 2008 I see 59 reserved [33 available], 62 ports 30 minutes later [30 available], and 63 ports 60 minutes later [29 available]

14:00:38 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

14:00:45 [CharlieW]

CharlieW has joined #forms

14:00:52 [Steven]

zakim, room for 4 for 180 mins?

14:00:53 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)14:00Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 180 minutes until 1700Z

14:01:21 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)14:00Z has now started

14:01:28 [Zakim]

+klotz

14:01:44 [Steven]

zakim, dial Forms-f2f

14:01:44 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:46 [Zakim]

+Forms

14:05:42 [Steven]

Scribe: Mark

14:05:47 [John_Boyer]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._6%2C_2008

14:05:48 [Steven]

scribenick: markbirbeck

14:06:24 [markbirbeck]

John: Agenda will mainly be circling back to 1.2 features.

14:06:29 [Steven]

Meeting: Forms WG FtF Raleigh, NC, USA, Day 3

14:06:35 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:06:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

14:08:00 [markbirbeck]

Charlie wanted to briefly discuss Erick's post about the name RIA.

14:08:24 [markbirbeck]

Suggested that he was right, and that we should avoid references to "rich internet applications".

14:08:30 [markbirbeck]

Some agreement.

14:08:41 [Steven]

Chair: John

14:08:46 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.1/index-diff.html

14:09:10 [Steven]

Present: Nick, Keith, John B, Mark B, Steven, Uli, Charlie, Leigh

14:09:30 [markbirbeck]

John: Last night worked on the spec.

14:09:47 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.1/index-diff.html#structure-bind-element

14:10:11 [markbirbeck]

John: Made some changes to the bind element to capture some of Aaron's comments.

14:10:50 [Steven]

i/Agenda: /Topic: Agenda Review/

14:10:55 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:10:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

14:11:09 [markbirbeck]

...Mainly clarified that the default nodeset is obtained from the default evaluation context. This was needed since @nodeset is optional on xf:bind.

14:11:11 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Custom_XPath_functions

14:11:47 [markbirbeck]

...Also looked at the custom XPath function requirement. May not yet be right, but looks promising.

14:13:11 [markbirbeck]

...Examples are followed by some notes and questions that came up whilst looking at the issues.

14:15:05 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Point out in passing that this is why I argue that the feature-set of XBL can more easily be done in an XHTML container.

14:15:57 [markbirbeck]

...I.e., the <function> element can define methods that could be called within the XHTML document, but it could also express a method that is a public interface for a widget.

14:16:49 [CharlieW]

CharlieW has left #forms

14:16:55 [markbirbeck]

John: Started playing the idea of having internal or temporary instances, but it gets awkward when you start trying to return nodesets to the caller.

14:19:20 [markbirbeck]

...but the idea of variables seems to capture this better, and is interesting that this seems to converge with some of yesterday's discussions about simplification.

14:19:32 [markbirbeck]

Leigh: What causes the actions in the function to run?

14:20:03 [markbirbeck]

John: It's just like normal, in that xf:actions don't 'run' until an event is dispatched to it.

14:21:03 [markbirbeck]

...In these examples the actions run when the function is invoked.

14:23:18 [markbirbeck]

...Also considered putting the implementation into a specific element.

14:23:46 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Pointed out that there is a handler spec in XHTML-world that does a lot of this. Should look at trying to merge the two.

14:25:18 [markbirbeck]

John: Variables are a bit like actions.

14:25:27 [klotz]

is there a link for the XML Handlers document?

14:26:11 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Should have a flag that indicates whether the function's operation requires a rebuild.

14:28:04 [markbirbeck]

John: At the moment everything is ring-fenced, so can't modify the wider data.

14:28:45 [markbirbeck]

...Open questions like should we set the return type? Should <return> be in only one place, or be allowed to appear anywhere?

14:29:15 [Steven]

Leigh, http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-events/#s_handler_module_elements

14:29:38 [klotz]

OK, so it finally made it into XML Events 2.

14:29:50 [Steven]

yes

14:30:08 [nick]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#element-function

14:30:29 [Steven]

Mark: Well you can imitate a function in XForms using an instance and events

14:30:48 [Steven]

... so we just need to package that as a function call as syntactic sugar

14:30:51 [klotz]

yes, but i can see now xsl:function doesn't allow actions or script, just a value-of.

14:32:17 [markbirbeck]

John: Recursion may not necessarily be a problem, but modifying data may be an issue.

14:32:33 [Charlie]

Charlie has joined #forms

14:32:49 [markbirbeck]

...XPath functions are not meant to modify the data that they are running against.

14:33:04 [klotz]

xslt2.0 functions are recursive

14:35:00 [klotz]

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xdxslt20.html#code4 factorial

14:36:13 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Should consider either copying the model of the xsl:function definition, or extending the handler module.

14:36:48 [markbirbeck]

...What a pity that there is no module we can import.

14:38:22 [markbirbeck]

Nick and John discuss some of the details of the XLST 2.0 definition, such as override, return types, etc.

14:42:43 [Charlie]

Charlie has joined #forms

14:43:23 [markbirbeck]

John: How do values get returned? Surely we can't do the same as the XSLT technique?

14:44:02 [markbirbeck]

Mark: We could (i.e., accumulate nodes for returning as the function is executed) but it may not be the best way to do things for our audience.

14:45:08 [markbirbeck]

Nick: Need to be able to us xf:insert and xf:delete whilst constructing the result set.

14:47:39 [John_Boyer]

<insert name="somenodesetvar" origin="$p"/>

14:48:00 [John_Boyer]

<insert name="somenodesetvar" origin="$p[some condition]"/>

14:48:16 [Steven-eee]

Steven-eee has joined #forms

14:49:41 [markbirbeck]

Mark: But you need to be able to manipulate the variable itself.

14:50:08 [markbirbeck]

...For example, <insert nodeset="$people[3]" origin="$p[some condition]' />

14:51:00 [John_Boyer]

<variable name="people3" as="nodeset" value="$people[3]"/>

14:51:23 [markbirbeck]

Mark: No. :)

14:51:47 [markbirbeck]

Mark: In XPath 2.0 you can create nodesets on the fly.

14:51:56 [markbirbeck]

...I'll type a rough approximation for Nick to correct. :)

14:52:25 [markbirbeck]

...<variable name="people" value="{ 'a', 'b', 'c' }" />

14:54:03 [markbirbeck]

John: But this limitation is right, since you shouldn't be allowed to modify the passed in data.

14:54:41 [markbirbeck]

Mark and Nick: But you need to be able to return values that are not just numbers (as in the examples_.

14:56:49 [markbirbeck]

Mark: There is no distinction from an XPath point of view between some simple type like a number, and a node or even a nodeset.

14:58:34 [John_Boyer]

<function name="foo" as="nodeset">

14:58:44 [Steven]

Steven has joined #forms

14:59:18 [John_Boyer]

<param name="p" as="nodeset"/>

15:02:04 [John_Boyer]

<param name="q" as="nodeset"/>

15:03:11 [John_Boyer]

<variable name="r" as="nodeset"/>

15:03:45 [markbirbeck]

Nick: The new insert action allows us to do everything we would need to do to manipulate this nodeset.

15:04:11 [John_Boyer]

<insert name="r" origin="$p[somecondition]"/>

15:05:11 [John_Boyer]

<insert nodeset="$r[somecondition]" origin="$q[some condition]"/>

15:06:14 [John_Boyer]

<insert name="r" at="4" position="before" origin="$q[some condition]"/>

15:06:40 [markbirbeck]

Also <xf:setvalue ref="$r[3]/@long" value="convertGeo($o[3]/@long, 1)" />

15:13:40 [markbirbeck]

John: Need to decide whether we allow anything within functions, or make it limited.

15:17:23 [Steven]

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15:17:49 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Not quite saying that authors should be allowed to do anything, just saying that authors should be allowed to manipulate the variables.

15:18:45 [markbirbeck]

John: Realise the disconnect is that you are talking about manipulating the nodeset object as a tree, not just a flat list of values.

15:21:49 [markbirbeck]

Mark: These problems have been solved by XPath 2.0 and XSLT 2.0, such as recursion, etc. So we're not inventing anything.

15:22:08 [markbirbeck]

...Creating XPath functions is an establishing thing, all we're looking for is how to do it in our language.

15:22:25 [markbirbeck]

John: But XSLT 2.0 _is_ different in that they have an input tree and an output one.

15:23:05 [markbirbeck]

Mark: But that doesn't affect what an XPath function has to do; they just use XSLT 'concepts' to create an XPath function, and we would use XForms concepts to do the same. But either way you return a nodeset.

15:23:07 [klotz]

i cant' hear anybody; is this a break?

15:23:42 [klotz]

ok thanks;

15:27:25 [John_Boyer]

<setvalue ref="foo(nodes)" value="5"/>

15:29:59 [John_Boyer]

foo picks a node from the set of nodes and returns it

15:39:16 [Steven_]

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15:42:34 [jturner]

jturner has joined #forms

15:42:45 [markbirbeck]

Mark: This is good stuff, but it doesn't address the low-hanging fruit of existing JavaScript functions that can be used in many processors.

15:42:50 [markbirbeck]

...e.g.,:

15:43:20 [markbirbeck]

...<html xmlns:inline="some formsPlayer namespace">

15:43:31 [markbirbeck]

...<script type="...">

15:43:56 [markbirbeck]

...function geocode(long, lat) {

15:44:04 [markbirbeck]

... return x;

15:44:07 [jturner]

zakim, code?

15:44:07 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jturner

15:44:10 [markbirbeck]

...}

15:44:16 [markbirbeck]

...</script>

15:44:22 [Steven]

jturner, hi

15:44:28 [jturner]

hi

15:44:34 [Steven]

forgotten anything?

15:44:44 [jturner]

yup ;)

15:44:53 [John_Boyer]

missing U in Raleigh :-)

15:45:00 [markbirbeck]

...<xf:setvalue ref="a/result" value="inline:geocode(../@long, ../@lat)" />

15:45:01 [Steven]

Welcome to day3 of the FtF

15:45:06 [jturner]

sorry

15:45:28 [John_Boyer]

<function name="geocode">

15:45:30 [John_Boyer]

...

15:46:35 [Zakim]

+martinJ

15:47:04 [Steven]

rrsagent, here?

15:47:04 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T15-47-04

15:47:19 [markbirbeck]

<xf:model functions="geo:code">

15:48:07 [Zakim]

-martinJ

15:48:09 [jturner]

bad line

15:48:15 [jturner]

try again

15:49:23 [Zakim]

+ +0049308322aaaa

15:49:37 [jturner]

zakim, aaaa is me

15:49:37 [Zakim]

+jturner; got it

15:49:54 [John_Boyer]

xforms NS URI#functions

15:50:22 [jturner]

zakim, mute me

15:50:22 [Zakim]

jturner should now be muted

15:50:29 [John_Boyer]

xforms NS URI#script-functions

15:53:00 [markbirbeck]

Mark: The same mechanism would be used to reference a function defined in the new 'full' way that John is proposing, should that function not have a namespace prefix.

15:53:19 [markbirbeck]

...e.g., <function name="sumproduct" as="number">

15:53:25 [markbirbeck]

...

15:53:30 [markbirbeck]

...</function>

15:53:47 [markbirbeck]

...<output context="/purchaseOrder/items" value="local:sumproduct(item/price, item/quantity)"/>

15:54:27 [John_Boyer]

xmlns:local="&xformsNS;#local-functions"

15:57:55 [Steven]

Present+jturner

15:58:03 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:58:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

15:58:16 [markbirbeck]

Proposal to add a new namespace that will identify local/user-defined functions in a document, regardless of whether they are defined using script (as Orbeon, formsPlayer and we think, PicoForms allows) or the new function element.

16:00:32 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms

16:00:36 [markbirbeck]

Proposal to set the namespace to "http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/inline-functions#".

16:00:54 [klotz]

dont' we have to ask for namespaces?

16:01:19 [markbirbeck]

Sorry...I meant 'to set the namespace to "http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/local-functions#"'.

16:01:36 [markbirbeck]

Nick: Why have the hash at the end?

16:01:39 [Steven]

i/http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Custom_XPath_functions/Topic: Custom Functions/

16:01:43 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Helps in RDF-world.

16:01:46 [Steven]

rsagent, make minutes

16:01:48 [klotz]

for string composition to make qnames

16:01:55 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:01:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

16:02:00 [markbirbeck]

To make URIs, Leigh. :)

16:02:22 [klotz]

s/make qnames/express qnames/

16:04:08 [markbirbeck]

Leigh: Don't we need to ask for a namespace?

16:04:20 [markbirbeck]

Steven: Not sure that we do, since we are extending into our own space.

16:04:34 [markbirbeck]

...(Into our own 'URI space').

16:06:28 [Steven]

I'm asking in the W3C channel

16:06:41 [Steven]

tho' IanJ is not there, so I may not get an answer

16:07:37 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Don't want to say "trust me guys", but this is best practice.

16:08:13 [shepazu]

be there shortly

16:08:16 [Steven]

k

16:08:32 [markbirbeck]

John: Why don't we use # before 'local-functions'?

16:08:53 [markbirbeck]

Leigh: You need to concatenate two things.

16:09:09 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Think of an example...e.g., local:myfunc.

16:09:14 [markbirbeck]

...what does that represent?

16:09:48 [markbirbeck]

...We're defining something that does at the beginning.

16:10:06 [markbirbeck]

...Best practice is to create a 'good' URI.

16:10:10 [markbirbeck]

...This would generate:

16:10:30 [markbirbeck]

...http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms#local-functionsmyfunc

16:10:36 [klotz]

# is better than / for a purely pragmatic reason that it's easier to see and people are less likely to accidentally leave it off.

16:10:36 [markbirbeck]

...Not nice....

16:11:29 [Steven]

i/...Mainly clarified/Topic: Custom Functions/

16:11:36 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:11:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

16:11:53 [markbirbeck]

...Point is to create an RDF-friendly identifier. People may never use it, but that doesn't matter.

16:12:21 [markbirbeck]

...So http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/local-functions#myfunc

16:12:26 [markbirbeck]

...or http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/local-functions/myfunc

16:12:31 [markbirbeck]

...is preferable.

16:13:30 [markbirbeck]

...would propose using hash, and also that we use the singular.

16:13:32 [Steven]

I have received a message that it is OK to extend our NS URI without having to ask for permission

16:13:44 [klotz]

thanks Steven

16:14:29 [markbirbeck]

Proposal: to use the namespace "http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/local-function#" to identify author-defined functions.

16:15:42 [markbirbeck]

Resolution: To use the namespace "http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/local-function#" to identify author-defined functions in a document, wether they are defined inline with script or using the proposed function element..

16:16:13 [markbirbeck]

s/Resolution: To use/RESOLUTION: To use/

16:16:30 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:16:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

16:17:01 [markbirbeck]

s/function element../function element./

16:17:21 [Steven]

Link to train we saw day before yesterdam

16:17:25 [Steven]

s/dam/day/

16:19:47 [Steven]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circus_train

16:22:14 [unl]

unl has joined #forms

16:30:25 [markbirbeck]

The topic of the break?

16:30:28 [markbirbeck]

Trains.

16:30:40 [markbirbeck]

(And circuses...but mainly trains.)

16:31:48 [Zakim]

-klotz

16:31:58 [Steven]

zakim, who is on thecall?

16:31:58 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, Steven.

16:32:05 [Steven]

zakim, who is on the phone?

16:32:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Forms, jturner (muted)

16:32:32 [klotz]

klotz has joined #forms

16:33:36 [jturner]

seems it doesn't make sense to listen to a train break - talk to you next time

16:33:58 [Zakim]

-jturner

16:34:10 [Charlie]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Make_model_optional

16:34:34 [Steven]

zakim, drop forms

16:34:34 [Zakim]

Forms is being disconnected

16:34:36 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)14:00Z has ended

16:34:37 [Zakim]

Attendees were klotz, Forms, martinJ, +0049308322aaaa, jturner

16:34:59 [Steven]

zakim, reserved now?

16:34:59 [Zakim]

on Wed Feb 6 11:34:00 2008 I see 75 reserved [17 available], 177 ports 30 minutes later [overbooked], and 169 ports 60 minutes later [overbooked]

16:36:46 [Steven]

zakim, room for 4 at 1300 for 240 mins?

16:36:48 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)18:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 13:00 for 240 minutes until 2200Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked

16:36:54 [Charlie]

Topic: Optional Model

16:36:55 [markbirbeck]

Discussed ending at 4pm.

16:36:56 [Charlie]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Make_model_optional

16:37:16 [markbirbeck]

(For Leigh's benefit...we're ending two hours earlier than planned.)

16:39:57 [Steven]

one hour I think

16:39:58 [markbirbeck]

Charlie: Two examples: A simple form that uses form as an abbreviation for model+instance+submission, and one that gradually adds a few more things to this.

16:40:51 [markbirbeck]

Uli: Is this the same as the HTML form element, or something different?

16:41:38 [markbirbeck]

Nick: Lazy authoring already gives us a lot of what this example shows.

16:43:25 [markbirbeck]

Charlie: How could it be the HTML forms element?

16:43:40 [John_Boyer]

I had thought better use of default namespace to XForms would allow no namespace qualification of the elements in the form.

16:44:07 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Because this came originally from our discussions in Venice, about making HTML elements into a shorthand for XForms constructs.

16:46:49 [John_Boyer]

I also thought we would use the name attribute rather than ref

16:47:30 [John_Boyer]

What about <form xmlns="&xformsNS;" action="...">

16:47:38 [John_Boyer]

<input name="field1" ...

16:47:46 [John_Boyer]

<input name="field2"...

16:48:17 [John_Boyer]

or <input name="field2 calculate="$field1 + 50"

16:57:46 [markbirbeck]

Nick: Isn't form just another grouping element?

16:58:16 [markbirbeck]

John: But this is about reusing the elements.

16:58:49 [markbirbeck]

Nick: Why do we add an element with the name 'form', just because it exists in HTML?

16:59:05 [markbirbeck]

John: But we are the form working group.

16:59:20 [markbirbeck]

Mark: But it makes it easier for people to move from HTML.

17:00:38 [John_Boyer]

time for lunch...

17:01:18 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:01:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

17:55:26 [Charlie]

Charlie has joined #forms

17:59:44 [Steven]

RRSAgent, here?

17:59:44 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T17-59-44

18:00:58 [unl]

unl has joined #forms

18:03:22 [wellsk]

zakim, call Forms-f2f

18:03:22 [Zakim]

ok, wellsk; the call is being made

18:03:23 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)18:00Z has now started

18:03:24 [Zakim]

+Forms

18:05:04 [klotz]

dialing

18:05:37 [klotz]

zakim, code?

18:05:37 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), klotz

18:05:45 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

18:13:40 [klotz]

nobody. only snatches. It seems like it's cutting out and ony turning on when it hears enough audio. if everybody laughs i hear that. i hear about 20% of charlie.

18:20:13 [klotz]

ok if you want to talk to me please shout and i will look at the IRC.

18:20:30 [John_Boyer]

ok, will do...

18:28:53 [ebruchez]

ebruchez has joined #forms

18:37:55 [klotz]

ebruchez the audio problem is back and they can't fix it.

18:40:55 [ebruchez]

ouch

18:41:10 [ebruchez]

annoying

18:42:06 [klotz]

i answered one of your customers about select/copy.

18:43:09 [klotz]

it seems to default to us on the phone talking and you listening, and only when the volume on your side gets high enough does it switch over and we get to hear you; it's half-duplex, and the default seems to be wrong.

18:44:23 [klotz]

i don't think that's it. there's no noise, just utter silence, but when several of you talk at once, everything comes through clearly.

18:46:23 [Steven]

Well, there's a constant background noise from the fans, so that may define the background cutoff point for the noise elimination filter, and so drowns us out, and gets replaced with silence

18:58:38 [John_Boyer]

Action: John to send his XML events commentary to public-webapi@w3.org with subject DOM 3 events

18:58:38 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John

18:58:38 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)

18:59:34 [John_Boyer]

scribe: Steven

19:00:51 [shepazu]

shepazu has joined #forms

19:02:18 [Steven]

steven

19:02:28 [Steven]

steven

19:03:19 [Steven]

Topic: Optional model (continued)

19:03:26 [Steven]

John: I dunno

19:03:32 [Steven]

... I agree with Mark

19:03:57 [Steven]

... a strong emphasis is to make it much easier for people who have developed HTML skills to relate to our markup

19:04:17 [Steven]

... and to map how they spell things now to XForms MVC constructs

19:05:12 [Steven]

Charlie: I wasn't exactly doing that

19:05:23 [Steven]

... though I agree they need to be pulled together

19:05:32 [Steven]

John: That's ease of authoring pattern

19:05:42 [Steven]

... but you wanted optional model in isolation

19:06:05 [Steven]

Mark: I would merge the two

19:06:21 [Steven]

... we need to decide if we need to adopt this philosophical approach

19:06:37 [Steven]

... making the markups look spookily similar

19:07:00 [Steven]

Nick: If we want to do that then we should consider it as a dialect as XForms

19:07:21 [Steven]

... some of it makes it more complicated not less

19:07:31 [Steven]

Mark: If we get it right, it needn't be

19:08:05 [Steven]

Charlie: We have three starting pointds; HTML author, XForms author, but also the one who wants to go backwards from the glass

19:08:21 [Steven]

Mark: If you try to make HTML into XForms

19:08:31 [Steven]

... and gradually add more and more stuff

19:08:50 [Steven]

... such as making model optional

19:09:15 [Steven]

... then <div></div> is a valid XForms

19:09:33 [Steven]

... nad you have to define what it means to leave out the instance

19:09:39 [Steven]

s/nad/and/

19:10:29 [Steven]

John: What if I just add an input?

19:10:37 [Steven]

Nick: Then it creates an implicit model

19:10:46 [Steven]

... an implicit instance

19:10:52 [Steven]

... implicit binds and just works

19:11:28 [Steven]

Mark: It is conceptually an XForms doc, it uses the XForms architecture

19:12:59 [Steven]

Steven: What W3C needs, and we've been saying this since 1999 is something like CSS that layers the meaning

19:13:25 [Steven]

... then we define the XForms semantics and layer it onto XForms markup, Yahoo's blueprint markup, onto HTML and so on

19:13:57 [Steven]

[argument abotu whether <input name="" is a binding]

19:14:06 [Steven]

s/abotu/about/

19:15:44 [Steven]

John: web developers don't like having to write xf:input and ref=""

19:16:27 [Steven]

Mark: Nick, it is because you come from the XSLT world that you think that the exact spelling of features is not important

19:17:03 [Steven]

Nick: Well, don't we need valid XML anymore?

19:18:14 [Steven]

John: It's to take to the Forms TF, to find common ground

19:20:44 [Steven]

Mark: We have to define what <input name= means in XForms parlance, in order to allow incremental additions like output

19:22:40 [Steven]

Nick: Now I have to explain to people that they can use name or ref

19:22:45 [Steven]

Mark: No

19:23:40 [Steven]

... we just claim that <input name= is in our architecture, but XForms people don't have to use it

19:23:52 [Steven]

Nick: I think it adds confusion

19:24:19 [Steven]

Mark: People need to just learn the most appropriate parts of the language for them

19:26:36 [Steven]

Uli: Doesn

19:26:56 [Steven]

't this mean that an XForms processor has to process any HTML form?

19:27:01 [Steven]

Mark: It could do

19:27:14 [Steven]

Uli: and mixed up with HTML markup?

19:27:17 [Steven]

Mark: Why not?

19:27:29 [Steven]

... HTML5 has added an output element

19:29:10 [Steven]

Mark: If we had the document itself as data model, like we discussed yesterday

19:29:24 [Steven]

... then you could have a hint with data from the alt attribute of an img

19:29:54 [Steven]

John: If you have no model, then what else could you use for your data?

19:29:59 [Steven]

Mark: Exactly

19:30:53 [Steven]

Nick: I don't disagree that it would be a good idea to have the HTML dialect of XForms, but it is just a dialect.

19:32:27 [Steven]

John: I think that people struggle with the attribute being called something different

19:32:32 [Steven]

Steven: I disagree

19:33:05 [Steven]

... I think that the problem is with namespaces; people aren't stupid eough that they can't deal with using ref, and understanding that it represents more than just a name

19:33:21 [Steven]

... but if their first attempt doesn't work because they got the namespace wrong

19:33:29 [Steven]

... that's where it goes wrong

19:33:46 [Steven]

Nick: I think we need to keep the core language simple

19:34:02 [Steven]

Mark: I agree, picoforms won't be interested in this stuff

19:34:37 [Steven]

s/eough/enough/

19:35:33 [Steven]

Nick: it is important that the same syntax should produce the same results

19:37:28 [Steven]

Mark: As STeven said, what we are really talking about is the XForms architecture

19:37:40 [Steven]

... not particular markup

19:38:39 [Steven]

... so getting the concepts right is more importnant than the concrete syntax

19:38:46 [Steven]

s/nant/ant/

19:39:18 [Steven]

Mark; So does <form> generate more content, or does it map to stuff we already have

19:39:41 [Steven]

... then svg could add an input to SVG without using <xf:input>

19:41:17 [Steven]

Steven: So what we are doing is rejecting namespaces as the mechanism for combining archtectures, and what we have to do is start a new WG to develop Architectural Style Sheets

19:41:21 [Steven]

[laughter]

19:41:29 [Steven]

Charlie: Well, that's XBL

19:41:38 [Steven]

\Steven: Not sure, XBL is a bit to concrete

19:41:46 [Steven]

s/\S/S/

19:42:06 [Steven]

s/to /too /

19:43:16 [Steven]

Mark: [Something about events and lifestyle that the scribe missed]

19:43:24 [Steven]

s/style/cycle/

19:45:56 [Steven]

Charlie: I wonder if we can abstract events out, so that people could use another event mechanism

19:46:19 [Steven]

Mark: Events are really like a method interface

19:46:48 [Steven]

... but to get these things working together, you need one thing that is concrete

19:47:06 [Steven]

... that you can be certain that you can talk to other things through that interface

19:47:17 [Steven]

Charlie: You lose the Ajax people if you say that

19:47:45 [Steven]

Mark: Dojo has 4 different event mechanisms, DOM2 is one of those

19:48:00 [Steven]

... but IE doesn't support DOM2 events natively, the rest do

19:48:07 [Steven]

... so on IE you have to script it

19:48:28 [Steven]

... but you still need the event object

19:49:10 [Steven]

Charlie: You can do everything just using target phase

19:49:53 [Steven]

... which is what SMIL does

19:50:01 [Steven]

Mark: You can do that with hint as well

19:50:28 [Steven]

... you listen to the mouseover directly

19:50:40 [Steven]

... rather than converting to the hover event

19:54:22 [markbirbeck]

http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/webapps-workshop-standards-based-vm.pdf

19:54:38 [Steven]

Charlie: So how do we do this architectural thing?

19:54:46 [Steven]

mark: See my paper from 2004

19:54:49 [Steven]

[laughter]

19:55:27 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

19:58:54 [Charlie]

Topic: Nested Models

19:58:57 [Charlie]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Example_markup_for_nested_models

20:00:58 [Steven]

Charlie: My airline seems to be prefilling data on some forms to make life easier on a mobile device

20:01:47 [Steven]

... so this markup shows a similar interface

20:04:40 [Steven]

Steven: What is the advantage of nesting rather than having siblings?

20:04:47 [Steven]

Charlie: Context

20:05:12 [Steven]

... it solves a number of the cross model referncing problems

20:06:17 [Steven]

John: But you could do <model src="" to achieve the same effect

20:06:25 [Steven]

Charlie: I tried to avoid things like that

20:06:47 [Steven]

[for reasons that the scribe missed]

20:07:08 [Steven]

John: The UI is not allowed to talk to the inner model, which is interesting

20:07:28 [Steven]

Charlie: Nor the inner submissions

20:07:36 [Steven]

Mark: Why do you want to hide them?

20:07:42 [Steven]

Charlie: Black boxes

20:07:53 [Steven]

Mark: Then leave the id off

20:09:32 [Steven]

... it makes implementing the hiding easier

20:10:28 [Steven]

Mark: But it is a good model

20:10:42 [Steven]

... it gives a public face without having to know the instance structure

20:15:14 [Steven]

zakim, remind me in 30 that Mark has to leave soon

20:15:14 [Zakim]

ok, Steven

20:17:12 [Steven]

Mark: If you want to make an importable modle, then you would have to avoid id's to avoid clashes

20:17:54 [unl]

s/modle/model

20:18:32 [Steven]

table label

20:19:33 [ebruchez]

(following the IRC logs, but going to lunch now)

20:19:45 [Steven]

John: So can the UI get to the inner model or not?

20:20:19 [Steven]

Charlie: I thought of it as a blackbox, and so thought that was useful

20:20:37 [Steven]

... but I understand there may be more usecases, so maybe we should allow it

20:20:54 [Steven]

... I like the idea of keeping it simple

20:22:03 [Steven]

Mark: WIth your idea of showing the list of places you can get to from Dallas would require access to the inner model

20:22:36 [Steven]

Charlie: That would be a sibling instance

20:24:31 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

20:24:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven

20:31:08 [Steven]

[meeting breaks into small group discussions]

20:33:28 [unl]

Uli: I'd like to question model nesting generally. Encapsulation can be achieved in other, better understood ways (inheritance).

20:45:14 [Zakim]

Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time that Mark has to leave soon

21:01:51 [Steven]

Mark: @ref on everything

21:02:00 [Steven]

John: How does it know to use that value?

21:02:27 [Steven]

Mark: Well, all elements should conceptually have a ::value which is afected by events that cause it to update

21:03:37 [Steven]

John: Are you interested in co-writing the message module?

21:03:40 [Steven]

Mark: Yes

21:03:54 [Steven]

John: I would like to participate

21:04:05 [Steven]

Mark: We should do it wiki style

21:04:36 [Steven]

Steven: I have long thought about a wiki that produces W3C specs

21:04:42 [Steven]

Many: Yes!

21:06:04 [unl]

Or we have an XForms app for writing specs

21:08:22 [wellsk]

Scribe: wellsk

21:08:53 [klotz]

zakim, code?

21:08:53 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), klotz

21:08:55 [wellsk]

John: looking for volunteers for modules

21:08:59 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

21:10:00 [wellsk]

Charlie: excited about Generalizing Constraints beyond the UI

21:10:43 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features

21:11:03 [wellsk]

John: Organized modules last night

21:11:18 [wellsk]

John: parallel efforts in module work

21:11:39 [wellsk]

Nick: ease-of-authoring, and later do some

21:11:54 [wellsk]

John: Nick has some for formal 1.2

21:12:09 [wellsk]

Nick: easy to attach on wiki

21:12:36 [wellsk]

John: mentions email about child elements of bind

21:13:06 [wellsk]

John: wiki is good for placeholder and prioritizing

21:13:36 [wellsk]

John: data properties and instance modules could lead to submission module

21:16:16 [wellsk]

John: Steve, move himself off message module and Steven to work with Mark

21:16:30 [wellsk]

s/Steve/Steven/

21:16:55 [wellsk]

John: asking Steven to take on label module

21:17:47 [wellsk]

John: is label module big enough to care about? Is it worthwhile doing one?

21:18:44 [wellsk]

Steven: mostly harmless, if need it they can use it

21:19:15 [wellsk]

John: question to Doug - does svg have way to attach labels.

21:20:00 [wellsk]

Doug: no, talking about best practices for labels

21:20:15 [klotz]

i only found out recently that CSS2.1 removed caption-side left and right, which is how we were going to style labels in CSS

21:21:00 [wellsk]

Doug: talking about associating text with graphic

21:22:22 [wellsk]

Doug: establish semantic relationship between

21:22:31 [wellsk]

John: use bind to do that

21:23:00 [wellsk]

Doug: or RDF Rdf-like for relationship

21:24:07 [wellsk]

Doug: show me this block, this hint, showing on graph is ueseful

21:24:52 [wellsk]

john: press F1 what happens..

21:25:00 [wellsk]

s/john:/John:

21:25:27 [wellsk]

Doug: block of things with title, refer to group as block of things

21:26:31 [wellsk]

John: anybody interested in instance data module

21:26:46 [wellsk]

Uli: raises hand -- is volunteering

21:27:19 [wellsk]

Nick: having modules for 2.0?

21:28:06 [wellsk]

John: Uli/Charlie violunteering for data properties module?

21:28:09 [wellsk]

Charlie: no

21:28:13 [wellsk]

Uli: yes

21:28:45 [wellsk]

John: model/valiudation/actions -- leave untasked for now?

21:28:58 [wellsk]

s/valiudation/validation/

21:29:31 [wellsk]

John: half hour left

21:29:52 [wellsk]

John: look at other 1.2 possible features? Perhaps review them now

21:30:07 [wellsk]

John: some may go away, some pertinent some not

21:30:23 [wellsk]

John: 1.2 Possible area

21:30:31 [wellsk]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features

21:31:32 [wellsk]

John: query: "Specific actions instead of general insert" moved to possible features after ...

21:31:50 [wellsk]

John: what are ways people are using things together?

21:32:16 [wellsk]

John: higher level markup

21:32:54 [wellsk]

John: for 1.2, more latitude for different markup other than simplified actions

21:33:32 [wellsk]

John: Specific actions instead of general insert moved out of the way

21:34:03 [wellsk]

john: next is "Value attribute on send action "

21:34:23 [wellsk]

Nick: attributes for submission to override ones in submission?

21:34:31 [wellsk]

John: to vary the submission

21:34:56 [wellsk]

John: send and as child, conflicts

21:35:10 [wellsk]

Nick: place where we refer dynamically to ids?

21:35:28 [wellsk]

John: toggle and <scribe missed rest>

21:37:05 [wellsk]

Uli: want more dynamic use dispatch

21:37:30 [wellsk]

John: delete "Value attribute on send action "; goes away

21:37:47 [wellsk]

John:" Need ability to conditionally cancel events "

21:38:06 [wellsk]

John: does this go away too

21:38:49 [wellsk]

John: XML Events 2 solves this

21:39:15 [wellsk]

... place this for 2.0 and solve by bringing in XML Events 2

21:39:40 [wellsk]

Nick: in theory, you can refer to XE 2

21:39:56 [wellsk]

John: XForms 2.0 where we do upgrades

21:41:15 [wellsk]

John: on "Better DOM interface to expose all actions "

21:42:34 [wellsk]

Nick: depends on how far we get to modularization, interested in pursuing

21:43:37 [wellsk]

John: Nick and Uli volunteer

21:45:01 [John_Boyer]

Action: Charlie, Uli and John to write instance module

21:45:01 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie,

21:45:22 [wellsk]

ACTION: Mark Birbeck and Steven to work on Modularization: Message Module

21:45:22 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Mark

21:45:22 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. mseaborn, mbirbeck)

21:45:26 [John_Boyer]

Action: Uli and John to write data properties module

21:45:26 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Uli

21:46:03 [wellsk]

ACTION: Uli and Nick on "Better DOM interface to expose all actions "

21:46:03 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Uli

21:46:55 [wellsk]

John: on "Recoverable link error on instance src "

21:48:17 [wellsk]

John: make link exception cancelable?

21:48:32 [wellsk]

... or make an exception or error

21:48:46 [wellsk]

Nick: what about canceling exception

21:49:52 [wellsk]

John: editorial changes, find exceptions, then add words to effect of "the default processing is to halt processing"

21:52:16 [wellsk]

Steven: if you want to do this, do a submission instead of a src?

21:54:10 [wellsk]

John: if instance is empty, lazy authoring takes over and creates instance anyways

21:54:43 [Charlie]

Charlie has left #forms

21:54:54 [wellsk]

John+Nick: achieved thru different means

21:55:45 [wellsk]

John: do we really need this?

21:57:10 [wellsk]

Nick: inconsistent behavior with new lazy authoring

21:58:36 [wellsk]

John: Nick's arguments win -- let's shoot this one

22:04:50 [wellsk]

Leigh: remain interested, not there yet for concrete proposal for WAF WG

22:05:14 [wellsk]

close to adjournment

22:05:21 [wellsk]

call next week

22:06:17 [wellsk]

trackbot-ng, end meeting

22:06:17 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, list attendees

22:06:17 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Forms, Leigh_Klotz

22:06:18 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

22:06:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-minutes.html trackbot-ng

22:06:19 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, bye

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-actions.rdf :

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: John to send his XML events commentary to public-webapi@w3.org with subject DOM 3 events [1]

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T18-58-38

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Charlie, Uli and John to write instance module [2]

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T21-45-01

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark Birbeck and Steven to work on Modularization: Message Module [3]

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T21-45-22

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Uli and John to write data properties module [4]

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T21-45-26

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Uli and Nick on "Better DOM interface to expose all actions " [5]

22:06:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-forms-irc#T21-46-03

22:06:29 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz