19:48:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #core
19:48:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-irc
19:48:13 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N
19:48:13 <Zakim> ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
19:48:40 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
19:49:16 <aphillip> Teleconference: Internationalization Core WG
19:49:46 <aphillip> Meeting: Internationalization Core WG
19:49:53 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
19:50:00 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
19:50:04 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
19:50:24 <aphillip> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Core_Homework#Agenda_topics
19:50:48 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:50:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:01:22 <Mick> Mick has joined #core
20:01:55 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has now started
20:02:03 <Zakim> +Michael_Monaghan
20:02:16 <Zakim> +aphillip
20:02:40 <r12a> r12a has joined #core
20:02:44 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
20:02:44 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
20:02:46 <Zakim> +Richard
20:04:08 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
20:04:30 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Core_Homework#Agenda_topics
20:05:57 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
20:06:58 <aphillip> richard: kevin novak was formerly a wg member from Library of Congress; a new representative will be joining us shortly
20:08:11 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
20:08:27 <aphillip> Addison to finish revising Unicode Migration for publication; Addison to resolve editing issues
20:08:56 <aphillip> Addison: check C14N XML 1.1 for health warning on normalization and comment appropriately if there is not one
20:09:05 <aphillip> Addison: contact C14N XML about IRI issue and seek resolution
20:09:19 <aphillip> DONE in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2008JanMar/0019.html
20:10:13 <aphillip> Felix to contact XML Schema to ask them not to close language validation issue before we've seen the wording
20:10:27 <aphillip> Richard create notes on how to use the wiki template
20:10:44 <aphillip> Richard to publish Character encoding for Beginners article [DONE]
20:11:35 <aphillip> Topic: Case Folding in CSS 2.1
20:12:49 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007OctDec/0050.html
20:13:25 <andrewc> andrewc has joined #core
20:16:33 <Zakim> +andrewc
20:16:44 <aphillip> addison: suggested references to Unicode and a health warning on using default locale
20:17:09 <aphillip> richard: thought we would suggest not doing case folding generally
20:17:23 <r12a> regrets: david
20:17:27 <aphillip> addison: also: my suggestions are kind of too heavy-weight
20:18:33 <aphillip> addison: suggestion that we document something somewhere else that others can reference
20:18:54 <aphillip> richard: suggest that we start small
20:19:02 <aphillip> richard: don't start with Note status
20:19:16 <aphillip> richard: just put basic ideas down first
20:19:28 <aphillip> richard: put to wiki or blog first
20:20:41 <aphillip> ACTION: Addison: write basic outline in wiki for a note on case folding
20:21:02 <aphillip> Topic: HTML5 and CharMod conformance
20:23:52 <aphillip> addison: status of architecture WG and it's work items... and our relation to them
20:25:34 <aphillip> (discussion of background of charmod and also the conformance thereto)
20:27:12 <aphillip> andrew: they call out their position well
20:27:27 <aphillip> addison: need to decide if we (or they) got it wrong
20:29:44 <aphillip> (discussion of how UA's interpret iso8859-1 vs. windows-1252)
20:30:41 <aphillip> andrew: also people using custom fonts with iso8859-1 as the declared encoding
20:31:38 <aphillip> andrew: also interplay between encoding, runtime, etc.
20:32:00 <aphillip> andrew: two issues: what browsers do is one thing and what authors should do is another
20:32:35 <aphillip> andrew: should separate what authors do and what browsers should do
20:34:14 <aphillip> addison: this is the ultimate fallback after all other considerations have been applied
20:35:40 <mm> mm has joined #core
20:35:46 <aphillip> addison: charmod has a requirement that if something says encoding 'x', then you must use encoding 'x'
20:36:11 <aphillip> ... but html5 says if 8859-1, then bytes 0x80->0x9F should be interpreted as 1252
20:37:28 <aphillip> mick: so are we saying we should change charmod?
20:37:43 <aphillip> addison: maybe... but maybe just endorse their "willful violation"
20:38:48 <aphillip> addison: have a table in my day job where I do this for a variety of encodings :-)
20:38:58 <aphillip> richard: support writing up questions if we don't have answers
20:39:29 <aphillip> addison: strong feelings of opposition to what they've done?
20:39:36 <aphillip> richard: don't know enough yet; maybe martin?
20:39:55 <aphillip> richard: or possibly francois...
20:40:36 <aphillip> andrew: not to concerned about what they tell browser writers to do, but they need to be clear about what authors should do
20:41:28 <aphillip> andrew: they should provide strong guidance to authors; for example, if it is 1252, then it should be labeled windows-1252
20:41:48 <aphillip> mick: agree; should be fixed at the author, rather than browser, level---browsers didn't create this problem
20:41:58 <aphillip> addison: +1
20:43:19 <aphillip> ACTION: andrew: write up a position statement describing why the willful violation exists and advising authors on the Right Thing to do with encoding declaration
20:44:06 <aphillip> Topic: styling in HTML5 and dir on public list thread: needs follow up
20:44:15 <aphillip> defer for felix's attendance
20:44:44 <aphillip> Topic: Named entities for bidi controls vs. markup
20:44:53 <aphillip> ... was responding to our TPAC notes, where there was a suggestion of having the Unicode bidi controls as entities (instead of markup)
20:45:05 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2007OctDec/0144.html
20:46:24 <aphillip> richard: the problme is that named entities don't translate well into XML
20:46:33 <aphillip> s/problme/problem/
20:46:56 <aphillip> richard: probably should get XML 1.0 6E to incorporate some of this
20:47:08 <aphillip> addison: actually as named entities?
20:47:19 <aphillip> richard: doubt they'd consider it; there are alreasy a few in there
20:47:33 <aphillip> richard: HTML maybe should have some of these
20:48:12 <aphillip> addison: now we have two ways of marking bidi (controls vs. markup) and this would add a third
20:49:30 <aphillip> andrew: it gives you something to see in your ascii editor
20:50:03 <aphillip> andrew: no good if you're in an RTL editing environment
20:50:54 <aphillip> richard: anywhere you can't use markup you can't use entities either
20:51:12 <aphillip> richard: except for attributes or elements such as title
20:51:35 <aphillip> ... and entities might be valuable there
20:52:49 <aphillip> addison: title and attribute argument is somewhat compelling
20:53:55 <aphillip> ... already can put controls as NCRs... but that's not user friendly... have mysterious code point references
20:54:23 <aphillip> richard: but if you know these things, you probably just want the code points........
20:54:35 <aphillip> richard: need to publich proposal or question for feedback
20:55:04 <aphillip> mick: write to winter list?
20:55:11 <aphillip> addison: also unicode bidi list
20:58:29 <aphillip> ACTION: Michael: write a proposal/summary message for eventual distribution to winter, et al, relating to doing bidi entities vs. markup vs. controls
20:59:15 <aphillip> send to member list; target next week if possible or the week after if no
20:59:22 <aphillip> s/if no/if not
20:59:59 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
21:00:31 <Zakim> -Michael_Monaghan
21:00:37 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-minutes.html aphillip
21:00:54 <Zakim> -aphillip
21:04:46 <Zakim> -andrewc
21:04:55 <andrewc> andrewc has left #core
21:05:00 <aphillip> RRSAgent, bye
21:05:00 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-actions.rdf :
21:05:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Addison: write basic outline in wiki for a note on case folding [1]
21:05:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-irc#T20-20-41
21:05:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: andrew: write up a position statement describing why the willful violation exists and advising authors on the Right Thing to do with encoding declaration [2]
21:05:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-irc#T20-43-19
21:05:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael: write a proposal/summary message for eventual distribution to winter, et al, relating to doing bidi entities vs. markup vs. controls [3]
21:05:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-core-irc#T20-58-29