IRC log of bpwg on 2008-02-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

09:35:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
09:35:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-irc
09:35:36 [PhilA]
rrsagent, make logs public
09:35:44 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:35:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
09:36:45 [PhilA]
meeting: mobileOK Pro Task Force face to face meeting Day 2
09:36:58 [PhilA]
Topic: [DEFICIENCIES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126671896
09:37:04 [PhilA]
Discussion about the desirability of sanctioning 'bad code'
09:37:10 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:37:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
09:38:18 [PhilA]
Present+ Kai, Adam, Dan, Dave, Alan, Phil
09:38:21 [PhilA]
Chair; Kai
09:38:24 [PhilA]
Chair:Kai
09:38:34 [PhilA]
scribeNick: PhilA
09:38:54 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:38:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
09:39:51 [PhilA]
DKA: Can we model some fake UA strings that are associated with a typical kind of deficiency?
09:40:14 [PhilA]
... that could be documented and then used to test to work around the deficiency
09:40:33 [PhilA]
Kai: Then you're testing for specific deficiencies
09:40:41 [PhilA]
Kai: We need to look at common deficiencies
09:40:53 [PhilA]
DKA: That's what I mean - class of deficiency
09:41:24 [PhilA]
DKA: CSS causes problems, table support
09:41:53 [PhilA]
DKA: We should focus on devices that say they support, say WAP 2 and actually don't. I can find out what they are
09:43:02 [PhilA]
Kai: Can we say that the content provider can take reasonable steps to accommodate common deficiencies.
09:43:18 [PhilA]
Kai: Meaning that if they have thought about it they may get an A for Effort
09:43:57 [PhilA]
Adam: So if you're using technologies that you know aren't fully supported then you should work harder
09:45:04 [PhilA]
Kai: It's about demonstrating that you are working around deficiencies that yuo know about - without specifying what those deficiencies are
09:45:32 [achuter]
achuter has joined #bpwg
09:49:59 [PhilA]
Test is drafted and examples given
09:58:27 [PhilA]
Further discussion about what the BP means. e.g. it does not mean pixel-perfect across all devices. It's about usability and intelligibility
09:59:21 [PhilA]
action: Daniel to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around
09:59:21 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Daniel
09:59:21 [trackbot-ng]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dappelqu, dschutz)
09:59:40 [PhilA]
action: Appelquistl to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around
09:59:40 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Appelquistl
09:59:48 [PhilA]
action: Appelquist to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around
09:59:48 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-645 - Seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].
10:01:46 [PhilA]
topic: [ERROR MESSAGES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126765624
10:05:37 [PhilA]
Discussion about what to test and what to expect. The BP doc is atypically verbose on this!
10:08:18 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:08:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
10:09:06 [PhilA]
Tests for the Retry, Home and Back link; then test that error message is in the expected language
10:17:32 [DKA]
Some info on deficiencies:
10:17:37 [DKA]
- different devices adding preset margins and padding. eg to get a page he full width of the screen we need to use -2px on a width setting because the device automatically adds a 2px margin
10:17:44 [DKA]
- poor implementation of background css (colours and images) while most devices support the functionality many support it poorly. the main problem is that the backgrounds disappear or breakup on scrolling
10:18:35 [DKA]
- for a particular device: Scrolling the page, the [white] text over category header bkg [coloured background] disappears (the white text is still there, but the bkg color disappear
10:18:48 [DKA]
- lack of proper <div> support. with many devices we have to resort to tables to layout content because divs do not work. This has various reasons (eg it is impossible to remove automatically added padding)
10:19:15 [DKA]
- cascading: many devices don't support the full cascading of css selcters down the tree. This mans we have to add styles at all levels on a device
10:19:31 [DKA]
- most CSS is supported it's just how it is supported that is the issue. Normally most CSS 1 is supported, but the implementation means that we can't use it.
10:19:50 [DKA]
(from Vodafone Live! team dealing with rendering issues)
10:20:09 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:20:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
10:20:41 [Kai]
Kai has joined #bpwg
10:20:54 [PhilA]
Discussion around error messages continued.
10:21:24 [PhilA]
Does a server pass on to an error page/handling URI the context of the error, eg language? i.e. are we asking too much? Recorded as an issue
10:21:41 [PhilA]
Topic: [FONTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#fonts
10:24:29 [PhilA]
The BP says don't rely on it... and then it says under how to do it, don't do it for the DDC. This is a mismatch
10:39:23 [PhilA]
Topic: [GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING
10:41:26 [PhilA]
There is a partial and constrained test in Basic. The Human test is actually much simpler
10:41:34 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:41:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
10:44:43 [PhilA]
Kai: Does anyone think that we're going through these too quickly?
10:45:41 [PhilA]
Discussion about what we're doing - feeling is that we'll create the draft doc which can then be the basis for more in depth debate
10:46:19 [PhilA]
As an aside, DKA reports the release of the OMA browser with support for XHTML Basic 1.1 which is important for the transition of the BP doc to Rec
10:46:49 [PhilA]
Topic: [LIMITED] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#LIMITED
10:51:33 [PhilA]
Discussion about what this BP means
10:52:10 [PhilA]
Lengthy texts without pagination and so on is unlikely to be MOK
10:52:48 [PhilA]
Basically, is the content 'designed' for mobile?
10:57:25 [drooks]
drooks has joined #bpwg
10:57:39 [drooks]
scribenick drooks
11:01:26 [drooks]
zakim, what is topic?
11:09:34 [drooks]
scribenick: drooks
11:12:06 [drooks]
drooks: there is a fine line between [limited] and [central meaning]
11:12:44 [drooks]
discussion centers around trying to distinguish between the 2 BPs
11:16:28 [drooks]
group is conscious not to target advertising as a bad thing
11:17:38 [drooks]
group descides to bundle [LIMITED] as [CENTRAL MEANING] as difference between the 2 can not be determined
11:18:14 [PhilA]
Topic [LINK TARGET ID] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126683960
11:18:57 [drooks]
TOPIC: [LINK_TARGET_ID]
11:21:45 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:21:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
11:24:46 [drooks]
achuter: explains why using 'click here' and 'more' link text is bad for screen reader users
11:30:05 [drooks]
group leaves 'click here' and 'more' links as open issue
11:32:34 [drooks]
Topic [MINIMIZE KEY STROKES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#MINIMIZE_KEYSTROKES
11:36:11 [drooks]
group decides that this test is already covered by [CENTRAL MEANING], [AVOID FREE TEXT], [URIs] and [PROVIDE DEFAULTS]
11:37:39 [drooks]
Topic [NAV BAR] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVBAR
11:44:22 [drooks]
group limits test to checking for top page nav bar only has 1 line
11:44:55 [drooks]
Topic [NAVIGATION] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVIGATION
11:45:19 [drooks]
quick resolution made on test case for this BP
11:45:53 [drooks]
Topic [NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES
11:47:26 [DKA]
DKA has joined #bpwg
11:49:38 [achuter]
http://www.wabcluster.org/uwem/tests/#guideline-1
11:53:32 [drooks]
group discusses decorative vs informative images
11:57:41 [drooks]
its quite a lengthy discussion
12:02:18 [drooks]
Topic [OBJECTS OR SCRIPTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT
12:03:41 [drooks]
brief pause to discuss ongoing actions as Phil has to leave shortly
12:08:21 [PhilA]
rrsagent, generate minutes
12:08:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA
12:08:29 [drooks]
everyone is going to take 6 tests to review / simplify / enhance
12:10:31 [drooks]
Kai now outlines timeline
12:30:05 [PhilA]
PhilA has left #bpwg
12:31:32 [drooks]
RESOLUTION: charter will be delivered by 21-02-08
12:32:03 [drooks]
RESOLUION: first draft of reworked tests will be delivered by 21-02-08
12:32:37 [drooks]
RESOLUTION: next f2f will be on 19-03-08 in London
12:33:38 [drooks]
RESOLUTION: group aims to go to LC by 08-05-08
12:33:49 [drooks]
RESOLUTION: LC comments will be addressed in June
12:34:15 [drooks]
RESOLUTION: group aims to go to CR by end of June
12:38:00 [drooks]
lunch
12:38:19 [drooks]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:36:51 [drooks]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:36:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html drooks
13:37:56 [drooks]
drooks has left #bpwg
13:41:24 [drooks]
drooks has joined #bpwg
13:42:04 [drooks]
Topic [OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT
13:43:10 [adam]
adam has joined #bpwg
13:45:47 [Kai]
Kai has joined #bpwg
13:46:52 [drooks]
resolution quickly reached
13:55:04 [drooks]
Topic [PAGE_SIZE_USABLE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_SIZE_USABLE
13:56:18 [drooks]
short discussion about PAGE_SIZE_LIMIT vs PAGE_SIZE_USABLE
13:56:38 [drooks]
agreement on test cases reached
13:57:20 [drooks]
Topic [PAGE_TITLE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_TITLE
13:59:26 [drooks]
another agreement quickly reached
14:01:03 [drooks]
Topic [PROVIDE_DEFAULTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PROVIDE_DEFAULTS
14:01:26 [drooks]
group takea a quick look at the existing basic test
14:08:06 [drooks]
and discuss checkboxes
14:09:06 [drooks]
tests are eventually agreed on
14:10:07 [drooks]
Topic [SCROLLING] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#SCROLLING
14:12:02 [drooks]
Topic [STRUCTURE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STRUCTURE
14:21:34 [drooks]
short discussion about heading markup
14:22:34 [drooks]
and what qualifies as structural markup
14:26:41 [Kai]
test
14:27:49 [drooks]
Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_USE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_USE
14:29:59 [drooks]
Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE
14:36:20 [drooks]
long discussion about how to deal with this BP
14:36:53 [drooks]
should we check if any declared style elements are not used within the site - tough human test
14:37:29 [drooks]
should we check if the CSS is a certain % of the main page content - too restrictive
14:43:45 [drooks]
group comes up with a few tests that can be run
14:44:12 [drooks]
Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT
14:44:44 [achuter]
scribenick: achuter
14:45:01 [achuter]
topic STYLESHEETS_USE
14:49:17 [achuter]
topic SUITABLE
14:50:24 [achuter]
adam: This is the weirdest BP of all.
14:54:37 [achuter]
ACTION: On DKA write mor examples of suitable BP.
14:54:37 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - On
14:54:45 [achuter]
ACTION: DKA write mor examples of suitable BP.
14:54:45 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - DKA
14:54:55 [achuter]
ACTION: Dan write more examples of suitable BP.
14:54:55 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-646 - Write more examples of suitable BP. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].
14:56:48 [matt]
matt has joined #bpwg
14:57:12 [achuter]
Adam: Need to check tab order regardless of whether tabindex has been used.
14:59:15 [achuter]
topic TABLES_LAYOUT
15:01:55 [achuter]
Kai: CSS isn't suitable for everything, like cell grid layout.
15:02:13 [achuter]
Dan: We don't want to go back and revisit the BP document.
15:04:07 [adam]
ScribeNick: adam
15:05:38 [adam]
Dan: MobileOK Basic test returns a warn for certain formats of table, the Pro test could be additive to that.
15:13:08 [adam]
Discussion on why tables are bad (don't capture semantics of page) and trying to define examples to flesh out the test.
15:18:59 [adam]
Topic: TABLES_SUPPORT
15:22:27 [adam]
Topic: TESTING
15:26:18 [adam]
Kai: That they are running through this document implies that have fulfilled this BP.
15:26:19 [adam]
Adam: Can we group TESTING statement with DEFICIENCIES or CAPABILITIES
15:28:19 [adam]
Kai: Content-provider decides to create MOK Pro site, he has to get somebody to test with devices in order to do that, so the test is essentially a check-point that this has happened.
15:28:42 [adam]
Alan: Just testing doesn't mean they've done anything about it.
15:30:22 [adam]
Alan: If a content-provider hands off to a testing company to get MobileOK Pro they will only have the content-provider's word that they really have done appropriate testing.
15:30:26 [adam]
Kai: Open issue noted.
15:30:35 [adam]
TOPIC: URIs
15:32:21 [adam]
Kai: What constitutes short enough? We need to bracket this test somehow.
15:45:42 [adam]
Discussion on whether a limit should also consider the domain name, or just the path.
15:46:08 [achuter]
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
15:53:11 [Kai]
Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG
15:53:15 [adam]
Topic: AOB
15:53:26 [Kai]
ACTION: Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG
15:53:26 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-647 - Create a response to the concerns of the WG [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].
15:54:20 [Kai]
ACTION: Kai to update the charter document based on output of F2F
15:54:20 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-648 - Update the charter document based on output of F2F [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].
15:55:55 [Kai]
ACTION: Kai to create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis
15:55:55 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-649 - Create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].
15:58:35 [Kai]
ACTION: phil to rework tests 1-7
15:58:36 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-650 - Rework tests 1-7 [on Phil Archer - due 2008-02-13].
15:58:58 [Kai]
ACTION: Adam to rework tests 8-14
15:58:58 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-651 - Rework tests 8-14 [on Adam Connors - due 2008-02-13].
15:59:20 [Kai]
ACTION: Alan to rework tests 15-22
15:59:20 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Alan
15:59:20 [trackbot-ng]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. achuter, atai)
15:59:47 [Kai]
ACTION: aChuter to rework tests 15-22
15:59:47 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-652 - Rework tests 15-22 [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-02-13].
16:00:16 [Kai]
ACTION: Dan to rework tests 23-30
16:00:16 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-653 - Rework tests 23-30 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].
16:00:47 [Kai]
ACTION: Dave to rework tests 31-37
16:00:47 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-654 - Rework tests 31-37 [on Dave Roberts - due 2008-02-13].
16:01:15 [Kai]
Close action-654
16:01:15 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-654 Rework tests 31-37 closed
16:01:37 [Kai]
ACTION: Rooks to rework tests 31-37
16:01:37 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-655 - Rework tests 31-37 [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13].
16:03:31 [Kai]
ACTION: Rooks to analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do
16:03:31 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-656 - Analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13].
16:03:49 [adam]
rssagent, generate minutes
16:04:18 [adam]
rssagent generate minutes
16:04:33 [adam]
rssagent, generate minutes
16:04:48 [adam]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:04:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html adam