15:03:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
15:03:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-owl-irc
15:03:20 <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap
15:03:32 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
15:03:34 <pfps> rrsagent, bookmark
15:03:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-owl-irc#T15-03-34
15:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Achille, Alan
15:03:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, alanr, Zakim, Achille, pfps, sandro, Carsten, trackbot-ng
15:04:15 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports
15:04:47 <Zakim> +??P6
15:05:06 <alanr> zakim, ??P6 is Jeremy
15:05:06 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
15:05:08 <jjc> jjc has joined #owl
15:05:23 <pfps> you sound much better?  is your teleconference cold over?
15:05:25 <Jeremy> q-
15:05:51 <pfps> i don't know whether Bijan will be here
15:05:54 <Jeremy> I am in the UK, rather than a hotel room in Athens!
15:06:28 <pfps> yes, but for the last while you appear to have been Skyping in, with the usual Skype echo
15:06:50 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
15:06:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Achille, Alan, Jeremy
15:06:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see Jeremy, RRSAgent, alanr, Zakim, Achille, pfps, sandro, Carsten, trackbot-ng
15:10:03 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
15:10:19 <Jeremy> scribenick: Jeremy
15:10:29 <Zakim> +??P11
15:11:02 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:11:02 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
15:11:03 <alanr> zakim, ??P1 is Boris
15:11:04 <Zakim> I already had ??P1 as +1.617.324.aaaa, alanr
15:11:15 <alanr> zakim, ??P11 is Boris
15:11:15 <Zakim> I already had ??P11 as bmotik, alanr
15:11:24 <alanr> zakim, who here?
15:11:24 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, alanr.
15:11:27 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl
15:11:28 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
15:11:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps (muted), Achille, Alan, Jeremy, bmotik
15:11:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see IanH, bmotik, Jeremy, RRSAgent, alanr, Zakim, Achille, pfps, sandro, Carsten, trackbot-ng
15:11:48 <Jeremy> Achille: on the three proposals on the Imports page
15:12:14 <Jeremy> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports
15:12:17 <alanr> Note to Boris, Ian - I added a new proposal 4.3 
15:12:50 <Jeremy> Achille: like proposal 2, by name - but there are ordering concerns
15:14:48 <alanr> q?
15:14:55 <alanr> q+ alanr
15:14:58 <Jeremy> Achille: desirable that mechanisms for deployment defined in config files, rather than in ontology themselves
15:15:24 <Jeremy> Achille: we are seeing ontologies being used say internally rather than on the web
15:15:40 <alanr> ack alanr
15:16:37 <Jeremy> Achille: internal mechanism is similar to that of XML Schema, where schemalocation attribute is a hint to the processor
15:16:49 <Jeremy> but the processor can use any internal mechanism to locate the schema
15:17:37 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:17:37 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:17:39 <Jeremy> Alan: my proposal (#3) allows you to do this, by importing another file that captures the mapping
15:17:42 <pfps> q+
15:17:52 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:17:52 <Zakim> pfps was not muted, pfps
15:17:53 <bmotik> q+
15:19:13 <Jeremy> Peter: alan how do you mandate the ordering constraints in #3
15:19:24 <Jeremy> Peter: RDF does not support ordering constraints
15:19:47 <Achille> q+
15:19:48 <Jeremy> Alan: you load a different file, that includes the original and the mappings
15:20:22 <Jeremy> Peter: but that would only work at the top-level, you would need to have control at lower levels too
15:21:15 <Jeremy> Peter: to modify the method of importing an ontology you would need to understand the imports-closure of the file you are loading
15:21:23 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
15:22:20 <Jeremy> q+ to suggest some SHOULDs ....
15:22:47 <Zakim> +msmith
15:22:55 <Zakim> -Alan
15:23:01 <Jeremy> Alan: can we modify RDF header
15:23:08 <Jeremy> Peter: I don't think so.
15:23:15 <msmith> apologies, I had an off by one hour scheduling mistake, just joined
15:23:16 <Jeremy> Alan: I looked and thought we could
15:23:24 <alanr> my phone is crap. back in a sec
15:23:40 <Jeremy> Boris goes:
15:23:51 <pfps> q+ to talk about overriding intent of ontologies on the web
15:23:56 <pfps> q-
15:24:05 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
15:24:08 <pfps> q+ to talk about overriding intent of ontologies on the web
15:24:30 <Jeremy> Boris: on third proposal
15:24:56 <Jeremy> Boris: I didn't understand the use of sameAs to encode equivalence between ontologies
15:25:29 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:25:29 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:25:35 <Jeremy> Boris: in DL world this gives ontologies status of individuals and may lead to confusion about how much reasoning is permitted/expected
15:25:37 <alanr> point taken - alternate mechanism for equivalence reasonable
15:25:52 <Jeremy> Boris: we shouldn't be mixing logical and metalogical levels.
15:26:34 <Jeremy> Boris: while I was advocating #2 (by name) we could do this by having #1 with some disclaimer that permitted tools to do #2.
15:26:36 <alanr> q?
15:26:42 <bmotik> q-
15:26:42 <alanr> ack bmotik
15:26:51 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
15:26:51 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
15:27:11 <Jeremy> Achille: I would 2nd Boris in allowing tools to override imports by location
15:27:46 <Jeremy> Achille: question to Alan in #3 can I change location without modifying the ontologies themselves?
15:28:18 <Jeremy> Alan: yes that's the idea
15:28:30 <alanr> ack achille
15:28:37 <Jeremy> ack Jeremy
15:28:38 <Zakim> Jeremy, you wanted to suggest some SHOULDs ....
15:28:40 <alanr> ack Jeremy
15:29:25 <alanr> q+ alanr to discuss his use cases versus proposed solution
15:30:45 <alanr> alan notes that tools support different mechanisms - I've experience thrashing on this
15:31:23 <pfps> ack me
15:31:25 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to talk about overriding intent of ontologies on the web
15:31:27 <alanr> ack pfps
15:31:48 <Jeremy> Jeremy: we could have SHOULDs that put Ontology elements first, while not strict RDF ....
15:32:02 <Jeremy> Jeremy: we could publish vocabs for alternative locations
15:32:04 <alanr> ack alanr
15:32:04 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to discuss his use cases versus proposed solution
15:32:09 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:32:09 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:32:35 <Jeremy> Peter: overriding a publishers imports statement by providing an alternative location is incorrect, since it changes their intent
15:33:26 <Jeremy> Alan: use cases for providing alternative location
15:33:32 <Jeremy> Alan: editing local version
15:33:58 <Jeremy> Alan: doing testing before publishing/ or checking for comaptible
15:34:18 <pfps> zakim, who is talking?
15:34:29 <Zakim> pfps, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeremy (5%), Alan_Ruttenberg (91%)
15:34:36 <Jeremy> Alan: another use case allows people to not to have change their namespace
15:34:41 <Jeremy> Zakim, mute me
15:34:41 <Zakim> Jeremy should now be muted
15:34:59 <bmotik> q+
15:35:23 <alanr> ack bmotik
15:35:26 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
15:35:26 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
15:35:34 <Jeremy> Alan: in versioning scenario what happens if I use latest version, but someone else in imports closure uses a different version
15:36:01 <pfps> q+ to mention that if a designer points to a specific version, then who are we to override ?
15:36:14 <Jeremy> Boris: there are many many use cases, btu specifiying corect behaviour may get out of hand
15:36:31 <alanr> q+ alanr to say outside spec is ok, as long as there is a working version in spec.
15:36:33 <Jeremy> Boris: there are many many use cases, btu specifiying corect behaviour may get out of hand
15:36:33 <Achille> +1 for Boris's idea of leaving the resolution to the tools
15:36:35 <alanr> ack pfps
15:36:36 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to mention that if a designer points to a specific version, then who are we to override ?
15:36:39 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
15:36:39 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
15:36:43 <Jeremy> Boris: there are many many use cases, but specifiying corect behaviour may get out of hand
15:37:09 <alanr> q+ to stop losing because protege does it this way
15:37:13 <Achille> +q
15:37:23 <Jeremy> Boris: we could not specify much, but allow tools to deviate from strict implementation
15:37:32 <alanr> q?
15:37:36 <alanr> ack alanr
15:37:36 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to say outside spec is ok, as long as there is a working version in spec. and to stop losing because protege does it this way
15:37:42 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:37:42 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:37:52 <Jeremy> Pfps: If I publish an ontology usign a specific version then that is the version that should be used.
15:38:26 <Jeremy> Pfps: If I am being stupid, then the correct fix is to educate me, not to import soemthing other than what I said
15:39:14 <Jeremy> Alan: Unfortunately stupidity happens; and there should be work arounds for the user
15:39:49 <Jeremy> Alan: different tools use different mechanisms for this and it really doesn't work for me
15:40:07 <Jeremy> Alan: I waste a lot of time; and imports mechanism acts as vendor lock in
15:40:30 <alanr> q?
15:40:30 <Jeremy> q+ 
15:40:36 <alanr> ack achille
15:41:01 <Jeremy> Achille: Addressing Peter's concern about ontology ownership
15:41:21 <Jeremy> Achille: from point of view of application developer you may want a local copy
15:41:34 <alanr> example: Narrow scope of ontology: Foaf-dl instead of foaf
15:41:37 <Jeremy> Achille: possibly netwoek unreliability ...
15:41:42 <pfps> q+ to mention that other errors also exist
15:41:53 <alanr> ack Jeremy
15:41:54 <Jeremy> ack Jeremy
15:43:00 <alanr> ack pfps
15:43:01 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to mention that other errors also exist
15:43:11 <Jeremy> Jeremy: could we spcify imports by location, but provide caching
15:43:47 <Jeremy> Jeremy: and possibly a common vocab to allow tools to interoperate with local caching
15:44:02 <bmotik> q+
15:44:06 <alanr> q+ to see if we can get consensus that there should be a compatible version across implementations
15:44:18 <Jeremy> Pfps: I don't see why we are picking on imports as something we can override
15:44:34 <Jeremy> Pfps: ontologies can be broken for many reasons
15:44:39 <alanr> q+ to say broken axioms can be handled by replacing ontology
15:44:40 <bmotik> Zakim, unmite me
15:44:40 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmite me', bmotik
15:44:42 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:44:42 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:44:45 <alanr> ack bmotik
15:44:59 <Jeremy> Pfps: and if it is usefull to  allow local users to fix imports, why shouldn't they fix axioms too
15:45:44 <alanr> alanr: Notes that processing model makes it clear what is supposed to go there
15:45:55 <Jeremy> Boris: an example a colleague simply didn't know what URI to put in improts tag? Physical URI, or logical URI ....
15:46:13 <alanr> ack alanr
15:46:13 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to see if we can get consensus that there should be a compatible version across implementations and to say broken axioms can be handled by replacing ontology
15:46:14 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
15:46:18 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
15:46:50 <Jeremy> Alan: is there consensus that we should specify a mechanism to do this
15:47:01 <Jeremy> Alan: I hear a need for tools to override behaviour
15:47:45 <Achille> +1
15:47:55 <Jeremy> Alan: I find it a pain that tools do this in different ways; so I would like to see some mechanism standardized ....
15:48:10 <alanr> PROPOSAL: We will define some mechanism for managing imports to handle the mentioned use cases that is in the language, without restricting tools from doing other things too
15:48:21 <pfps> q+ to ask what the proposal is
15:48:24 <Achille> +1 one for Alan's idea of a min import mechanism
15:48:30 <pfps> ack me
15:48:31 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to ask what the proposal is
15:48:35 <Jeremy> +1 to pfps
15:49:19 <bmotik> +0.5 to Alanr's proposal
15:49:30 <msmith> +0 seems that this is more appropriate as a best practices doc than a language feature
15:49:46 <Jeremy> pfps: you want to specify something that has nothing to do with the Web, but only to do with tools
15:49:52 <Jeremy> alan: yes
15:50:12 <Jeremy> pfps: you will need to specify a particular file location for overriding information
15:50:27 <Jeremy> Alan: .... we will need to specify something
15:50:29 <Jeremy> q+
15:50:34 <bmotik> q+
15:50:36 <Jeremy> ack Jeremy
15:50:39 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:50:39 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:51:19 <alanr> q?
15:51:28 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
15:51:28 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
15:52:00 <Achille> q+
15:52:15 <alanr> ack bmotik
15:52:31 <Jeremy> boris: people are using OWL in many different ways, and proscribing a particular file with resolution information may not work for all tools
15:52:51 <Achille> q-
15:52:53 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
15:52:53 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
15:53:11 <alanr> +1
15:53:21 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:53:21 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:53:38 <msmith> q+ to suggest modifying proposal
15:53:39 <alanr> PROPOSAL: We will define some mechanism for managing imports to handle the mentioned use cases that is in the language, without restricting tools from doing other things too
15:53:39 <Jeremy> (the proposal is a bit vague)
15:53:41 <pfps> -1
15:53:52 <bmotik> boris: Perhaps we can define some mechanism along alanr's lines, but not as part of a core specification
15:54:11 <bmotik> boris: This mechanism might be defined as part of a "Best practices" document
15:54:12 <alanr> q?
15:54:13 <pfps> -1 too vague
15:54:14 <Jeremy> pfps: we should not be defining solution to offweb issues
15:54:20 <alanr> q+ alanr
15:54:21 <pfps> -1 brings in off-web issues
15:54:25 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:54:25 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:55:02 <Jeremy> mike: we need to deal with this in a best practice rather than a specification, so that many tools use the same vocab
15:55:17 <alanr> ack alanr
15:55:23 <alanr> ack msmith
15:55:23 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to suggest modifying proposal
15:55:42 <bmotik> q+ to ask a question to peter
15:56:51 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:56:51 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:56:58 <Jeremy> alan: we seemed to be blocked ....
15:57:01 <alanr> q?
15:57:15 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
15:57:15 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
15:57:17 <Jeremy> pfps: we can definely improve the wording over OWL 1.0
15:57:37 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
15:57:37 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
15:57:46 <Jeremy> boris: would Peter oppose this as a best practice?
15:57:48 <Jeremy> pfps: no
15:58:11 <Jeremy> Alan: I see real benefit in having something in the specification
15:58:22 <Jeremy> q+
15:58:30 <Jeremy> ack bmotik
15:58:31 <Zakim> bmotik, you wanted to ask a question to peter
15:58:34 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
15:58:36 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
15:58:36 <Jeremy> ack Jeremy
15:58:40 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
15:58:43 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
15:58:44 <bmotik> q-
15:58:58 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:58:58 <Zakim> pfps was not muted, pfps
15:59:17 <alanr> q?
15:59:19 <Jeremy> pfps: I would not oppose some such wording
15:59:25 <Jeremy> q+
15:59:33 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:59:33 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
16:00:18 <alanr> q+ alanr about "caching"
16:00:19 <bmotik> +1 to Jeremy (more or less)
16:00:39 <bmotik> q+
16:01:00 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
16:01:00 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
16:01:06 <alanr> ack bmotik
16:01:10 <alanr> ack Jeremy
16:01:14 <alanr> ack alanr
16:01:17 <Jeremy> Jeremy: can we specify that imports is by location; tools may cache, and may need to cache; and we propose a vocab for location mapping
16:01:18 <alanr> ack about
16:01:24 <alanr> ack "caching"
16:01:39 <Jeremy> Alan/Boris: don't use the caching word, since it might not be
16:02:30 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:02:30 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
16:02:49 <Jeremy> adjourn ....
16:02:51 <Achille> bye
16:02:52 <bmotik> Bye
16:02:53 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
16:02:56 <Zakim> -msmith
16:02:57 <Zakim> -Jeremy
16:02:59 <Zakim> -Achille
16:03:00 <Zakim> -pfps
16:03:01 <Zakim> -bmotik
16:03:03 <Zakim> SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended
16:03:04 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.908.582.aaaa, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Achille, Alan, Jeremy, bmotik, msmith, Alan_Ruttenberg
16:03:04 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-owl-minutes.html alanr
16:03:25 <alanr> rrsagent, make log world readable
16:03:25 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make log world readable', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:03:28 <alanr> rrsagent, make log world-readable
16:31:45 <jjc> jjc has joined #owl
18:25:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl
19:49:41 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
19:49:51 <alanr> join #dig